Official DataSat RS20i thread. (Setup Tips, Questions,General Info, etc) - Page 40 - AVS Forum
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post #1171 of 1805 Old 01-11-2014, 04:14 PM
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Dave,

With the current setup I believe I have done the minimum and that is to have the new side surrounds outputting on Channel 15&16 so that part is sorted and I am actually hearing the side surrounds audio tack on both sets.

What I dont understand is the switching of the XLR cables you refer to. The only other way I thought this could be done was to try and do two runs of Dirac and then somehow merge the optimisation for side surrounds. Not sure how I would even do that.

In the Dirac Live setup it talks about multiple speakers. I have checked that option as well. What I actually thought this would do is look at my routing and realise that I am outputting to Channel 5&16 / Channel 6&15 and treat each channel pair individually. Too much advanced thinking/hoping on my behalf smile.gif
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post #1172 of 1805 Old 01-12-2014, 03:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Giving this some thought, you won't be able to do what I suggested. I think your best bet is to take as many measurements from both front and back rows when running Dirac to try and get the smoothest response for all positions.

But, putting the outs 15 & 16 on the surrounds 5 & 6 inputs will have you have two speakers playing simultaneously (Surround left and surround left back and the same for the right surrounds), so when running the Dirac software , it will apply filters for the two speakers combined on each side.

I am not sure what you want to do is possible????

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post #1173 of 1805 Old 01-12-2014, 03:34 AM
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Then how does one get side surround arrays going? I would have thought this is right up the alley of the RS20. I assume I dont have to invest in an external DSP to get this to work ?
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post #1174 of 1805 Old 01-12-2014, 04:00 AM
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You link them as you have done and use the multiple speaker option in Dirac so that it knows to correct on that basis. You can individually trim and delay and use manual output eq to sweeten if you really want to.

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post #1175 of 1805 Old 01-12-2014, 04:33 AM
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As Neil says, you have set it up correctly. Just tick the multiple speaker option under the correct channel number in the first page of the Dirac setup.

But as you are sharing the same channels, if you want to adjust the trims on the channels you have moved you will need to do this in the channels and routing page as once you move a channel the faders for that channel under audio levels becomes redundant.
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post #1176 of 1805 Old 01-12-2014, 04:14 PM
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Neil, that is what I have done, just wanted to see if I had to do anything more than that. I also assume that in order to send a pink noise to the speaker I have to move it back if I want to set trim levels in any shape or form. Also I noticed that my trim levels in the Levels screen has not come over to the routing screen. Do I need to copy that over if I want to keep the trims that I have set?

Thanks everyone for the input...................
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post #1177 of 1805 Old 01-14-2014, 11:18 AM
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Posted this in the Dirac thread, worth re-posting in the Datasat thread (see paragraph 7 below). Brief description and discussion of Dirac Unity here.
Quote:
Well, Unity is a tentative name for this new technology because a number of speakers will work in unison...

While we believe that Dirac Live offers the best possible solution as a state of the art Digital Room Correction, our researchers have found that if no cost constraints are imposed we can even go beyond Digital Room Correction with a new radical approach we call Active Room Treatment.

At this time I cannot disclose any deep technical details but I can say that it is based on ideas from the fields of active noise control, sound field synthesis and room correction where our company has conducted research for many years.

You may rightfully ask why did we have a booth at the CES if we want to keep it "undisclosed"

This really radical approach has substantial hardware and processing requirements (several channels and speakers are involved even if reproducing a stereo signal) and will consequently have a substantial price tag.

As of now we offer Active Room Treatment to Dirac Live OEM licensees only, for them to be able to offer something on the absolute leading edge to their customers.

For example Datasat which is a current Dirac OEM licensee is indeed eligible to offer this to their customers. (it is however their decision if they would like to do so)

I anyhow expect that carefully weighted pages about this technology will be available soon in the Dirac site.


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post #1178 of 1805 Old 01-14-2014, 11:32 AM
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Time to send in our emails to Datasat to request unity!
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post #1179 of 1805 Old 01-14-2014, 12:23 PM
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If Unity can really turn all your speakers into active room treatments (electronic absorbers), that would be impressive for taming room modes.

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post #1180 of 1805 Old 01-14-2014, 01:42 PM
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Originally Posted by djnickuk View Post

Time to send in our emails to Datasat to request unity!

I hope the other brand sporting Dirac can also consider offering it in the future smile.gif
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post #1181 of 1805 Old 01-14-2014, 01:45 PM
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Do you mean the Emotiva? If so, I'd be suprised if that would have the upgrade path available, or indeed the processing power. We shall see I guess.
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post #1182 of 1805 Old 01-14-2014, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by djnickuk View Post

Do you mean the Emotiva? If so, I'd be suprised if that would have the upgrade path available, or indeed the processing power. We shall see I guess.

No, I was referring to Theta but didn't want to cross contaminate the Datasat thread smile.gif

These are exciting days for Datesat owners. So much new processing coming your way!

Cheers
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post #1183 of 1805 Old 01-14-2014, 02:52 PM
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I know, I was being facetious. Lol.

I am sure they will get it at some point, but I doubt just yet as they are only just rolling Dirac out. And I doubt we will see it on the rs20i within the next 6 months unless Datasat have been quietly working away at this behind closed doors! wink.gif
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post #1184 of 1805 Old 01-14-2014, 03:05 PM
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It would be great if Dirac Unity was eventually provided on the Datasat RS20i - it would be another great function on an already impressive unit.

C'mon Datasat, you can do it!!
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post #1185 of 1805 Old 01-14-2014, 04:26 PM - Thread Starter
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It is an interesting idea for sure. And if DataSat wants to keep ahead of the competition implementing something like this would certainly take the RS20i to the next level (Assuming that Dirac Unity is that good).


OF topic but this guy looks like Oliver Saxon in Dexter. LOL,

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post #1186 of 1805 Old 01-14-2014, 04:48 PM
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Any word on a low cost DATASAT? Hoping for a digital output with Auro in a low cost model sans Dirac.

Great stuff.

DATASAT at $10K less than a Theta looks almost like a bargain!

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #1187 of 1805 Old 01-15-2014, 12:28 AM
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Originally Posted by JapanDave View Post

It is an interesting idea for sure. And if DataSat wants to keep ahead of the competition implementing something like this would certainly take the RS20i to the next level (Assuming that Dirac Unity is that good).

Glad you said that Dave, I was thinking the same thing. I'll be interested to see how this new Dirac software helps tame the effect of room modes using a surround speaker array, given most surround speakers roll-off at about the point room modes start to become an issue.

I also wonder what Dirac Unity can add if Dirac room correction has already been ran and is already correcting for in room frequency and impulse response problems.

I don't mean to sound like a party-pooper, anything new that gets added to the RS20i is most welcome, but personally, given a choice, I'd rather see something like Dirac Dimensions implemented which, if I am understanding its description on the Dirac website correctly, would likely be of much greater use in a home cinema setting.
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post #1188 of 1805 Old 01-15-2014, 12:38 AM
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Originally Posted by thebland View Post

Any word on a low cost DATASAT? Hoping for a digital output with Auro in a low cost model sans Dirac.

Great stuff.

DATASAT at $10K less than a Theta looks almost like a bargain!

I wouldn't hold your breath! No doubt Datasat are working on lower price point models given some of the press statements that have been released (intentionally and accidentally) that elude to it, but I would expect these models to have reduced feature sets. A $10k reduction could well see things such as digital outputs removed, or the channel count reduced, maybe Auro 3D limited to 9.1 etc.
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post #1189 of 1805 Old 01-15-2014, 10:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Wookii View Post

I wouldn't hold your breath! No doubt Datasat are working on lower price point models given some of the press statements that have been released (intentionally and accidentally) that elude to it, but I would expect these models to have reduced feature sets. A $10k reduction could well see things such as digital outputs removed, or the channel count reduced, maybe Auro 3D limited to 9.1 etc.

Agreed, and without some idea as to what is meant by "entry level price point", this Press Release (link) is not very informative:
Quote:
"LAS VEGAS, 8 January 2014 – Datasat Digital Entertainment, the world leaders in audio solutions for home cinema, has today announced a technology partnership agreement with Auro Technologies. The deal will see the companies collaborate in the development of a range of processors incorporating the Auro-3D® immersive sound format. The new processors will make Auro-3D® available across price points from entry level to high-end home cinema."
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post #1190 of 1805 Old 01-15-2014, 10:21 AM
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I'll be interested to see how this new Dirac software helps tame the effect of room modes using a surround speaker array, given most surround speakers roll-off at about the point room modes start to become an issue.
In the CES demo, they were addressing room modes up to 500Hz. Below that frequency, the before/after waterfall measurements of the hotel room showed a drastic reduction in long decay times. The repeated On/Off comparisons made it clear that Unity was definitely improving the sound.
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I also wonder what Dirac Unity can add if Dirac room correction has already been ran and is already correcting for in room frequency and impulse response problems.
Dirac Live room correction is applied to the source channel that each speaker is reproducing, which attempts to smoothen out the frequency response (reduce peaks & dips). Dirac Unity is a separate set of cancellation signals, which attempts to make each speaker serve double duty as an active absorber for its location.
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Originally Posted by Wookii View Post

I don't mean to sound like a party-pooper, anything new that gets added to the RS20i is most welcome, but personally, given a choice, I'd rather see something like Dirac Dimensions implemented which, if I am understanding its description on the Dirac website correctly, would likely be of much greater use in a home cinema setting.
From reading the description, that's their re-mapping feature, at the moment only "used in select luxury cars to give all passengers an impression of sitting in a reference room with reference speakers placed outside of the car". Don't know how useful it would be for home theatres, since speaker placement typically isn't fixed/restricted the way it is in a car cabin.

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post #1191 of 1805 Old 01-15-2014, 11:04 AM
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In the CES demo, they were addressing room modes up to 500Hz. Below that frequency, the before/after waterfall measurements of the hotel room showed a drastic reduction in long decay times. The repeated On/Off comparisons made it clear that Unity was definitely improving the sound.

That's good hear from someone who has experienced it directly then. We're obviously all working blind here, and guessing what is going on, but I'm still unclear how a speaker that can't physically produce sound below, say, 50Hz, can contribute towards taming a room mode at say, 30Hz. Did they cover how the tech was working at the demo? That said, if it sounds good, bring it on!
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Dirac Live room correction is applied to the source channel that each speaker is reproducing, which attempts to smoothen out the frequency response (reduce peaks & dips). Dirac Unity is a separate set of cancellation signals, which attempts to make each speaker serve double duty as an active absorber for its location.

Dirac Live does this also in a similar fashion to correct the impulse response, by generating a secondary signal from the speaker, designed to cancel the reflection, it also corrects for differences in driver phase, not just targeted frequency response. Granted each speaker does work alone however. I guess Unity builds on that by having the system work together as a whole, and looking at the interactions between speakers.
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From reading the description, that's their re-mapping feature, at the moment only "used in select luxury cars to give all passengers an impression of sitting in a reference room with reference speakers placed outside of the car". Don't know how useful it would be for home theatres, since speaker placement typically isn't fixed/restricted the way it is in a car cabin.

Given that the vast majority of home cinema systems cannot achieve reference layout speaker positions, even those in dedicated rooms, it would actually be an incredibly useful feature. Even more so if it could be applied to Auro3D speaker layouts, where achieving the vertical 40 degree angles is tricky at best.
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post #1192 of 1805 Old 01-15-2014, 11:33 AM
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Gareth. I'm guessing all frequencies sub 50hz will be handled by subs?

When I asked Dirac about there remapping feature for cars, they said its no where near as powerful as Dirac live! And as such Dirac live, loosely incorporates this feature.
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post #1193 of 1805 Old 01-15-2014, 11:45 AM
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Gareth. I'm guessing all frequencies sub 50hz will be handled by subs?

When I asked Dirac about there remapping feature for cars, they said its no where near as powerful as Dirac live! And as such Dirac live, loosely incorporates this feature.

I guess so - assuming the sub isn't up front next to the speakers it's trying to correct. I'm not saying Unity doesn't work, just keen to understand how it does work.

There is precious little on the Dirac site on Dimensions, so I'm just surmising it would be similar to the Trinnov remapping. Maybe not. What does Dirac live do to correct for non-reference speaker positions though?
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post #1194 of 1805 Old 01-15-2014, 12:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wookii View Post

I'm still unclear how a speaker that can't physically produce sound below, say, 50Hz, can contribute towards taming a room mode at say, 30Hz.
Who said it could? The idea is to use it for taming room modes from 50Hz up.
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Did they cover how the tech was working at the demo?
They described the approach without going into the math.
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Dirac Live does this also in a similar fashion to correct the impulse response, by generating a secondary signal from the speaker, designed to cancel the reflection, it also corrects for differences in driver phase, not just targeted frequency response. Granted each speaker does work alone however. I guess Unity builds on that by having the system work together as a whole, and looking at the interactions between speakers.
Dirac Live can address some of the effects of room reflections, like peaks & dips, as well as improve the impulse response (at least for minimum-phase low frequencies). Dirac Unity actually attempts to remove the boundry, the way a double bass array does to the back wall of a room (akin to noise cancelling headphones).
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Given that the vast majority of home cinema systems cannot achieve reference layout speaker positions, even those in dedicated rooms, it would actually be an incredibly useful feature. Even more so if it could be applied to Auro3D speaker layouts, where achieving the vertical 40 degree angles is tricky at best.
Tricky to create virtual speakers for multiple seats in a home theatre, since phantom images aren't stable. If you ever get a demo of any re-mapping technology, try moving out of the sweet spot.

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post #1195 of 1805 Old 01-15-2014, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Who said it could? The idea is to use it for taming room modes from 50Hz up.

Fair enough, 'twas just an an example, I hadn't seen that limit mentioned.

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. . . as well as improve the impulse response (at least for minimum-phase low frequencies) . . .

I'm not expert on this, and without wishing to split hairs, I believe the Dirac impulse response correction used a mixed phase, rather than minimum phase approach, and is designed to correct higher frequencies where the reflections are strongest, most consistent and have the greatest impact on audibility - One of the main reasons for applying Dirac to the whole frequency range on all channels, not just on bass frequencies.

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Tricky to create virtual speakers for multiple seats in a home theatre, since phantom images aren't stable. If you ever get a demo of any re-mapping technology, try moving out of the sweet spot.

Fair one, I haven't actually heard Trinnov in action, so I wasn't aware it wasn't stable outside of the sweet spot.
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Dirac Unity actually attempts to remove the boundry, the way a double bass array does to the back wall of a room (akin to noise cancelling headphones).


It does sound very cool. When you heard the Unity demo, how would you describe the change in sound when it was applied?
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post #1196 of 1805 Old 01-15-2014, 02:18 PM
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I hadn't seen that limit mentioned.
Because it isn't a system limit, just something obvious: if a speaker has no useful output below 50Hz, then it can't help correct frequency response below 50Hz. That doesn't have anything to do with Dirac Unity, just plain reality.
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I believe the Dirac impulse response correction used a mixed phase, rather than minimum phase approach, and is designed to correct higher frequencies where the reflections are strongest, most consistent and have the greatest impact on audibility...
If you believe that, then I won't try to tell you otherwise.
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I haven't actually heard Trinnov in action, so I wasn't aware it wasn't stable outside of the sweet spot.
It's not about Trinnov in particular but phantom imaging in general. If you're going to map a sound to a location where there is no physical loudspeaker, like where you hear vocals in a 2-speaker set-up, then that location won't be the same for all listeners. Phantom images are created in the brain, so when you move they move with you.
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When you heard the Unity demo, how would you describe the change in sound when it was applied?
The most audible change was the improvement in clarity. Lower frequency sounds that were ringing (had longer decay times) got tightened up and sounded sharper; most noticable on bass guitar plucks, drum whacks, etc. In addition, since these lower frequency sounds were decaying quicker, the side effect was that they no longer masked sounds at higher frequencies, exposing details that were previously obscured by the lingering bass. I could hear more clarity, for example, in the upper range of female vocals even though Unity wasn't correcting those particular frequencies.

It's a difference I'm very familiar with, having added room correction in 2004 to my old Lex processor. DSP horsepower wasn't anywhere near as powerful back then, so they concentrated the correction below 300Hz and just targeted frequencies with the longest decay times. This yielded the dual improvements I recognized with Unity: sounds in the correction range got tighter/clearer, while details above that range were unmasked and easier to hear. Of course the technology has come a loooong way in the 10 years since I first got it.

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post #1197 of 1805 Old 01-15-2014, 02:53 PM
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Dirac are aiming Unity at the ultra high end, re their comment about it costing a fair amount to implement. And as such I expect they expect most users to be using at least 4 subs in their system.

But here is a copy and paste from Computer Audiophile


Originally Posted by dallasjustice
Flavio,
If I wanted full range down to 20hz 2 channel using a Unity 7.1 setup, would all of the speakers need to be capable down to 20hz as well?

Michael.
Hello Michael,

as I said it has substantial hardware requirements... no, all speakers do not need to contribute all the way but the resulting treatment would be limited by the fact that they don't.
So the use of more than one subwoofer (or bass capable speaker) would be recommended.

Flavio

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f23-dsp-room-correction-and-multi-channel-audio/dirac-unity-ces2014-18972/
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post #1198 of 1805 Old 01-15-2014, 03:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djnickuk View Post

Dirac are aiming Unity at the ultra high end, re their comment about it costing a fair amount to implement. And as such I expect they expect most users to be using at least 4 subs in their system.

But here is a copy and paste from Computer Audiophile


Originally Posted by dallasjustice
Flavio,
If I wanted full range down to 20hz 2 channel using a Unity 7.1 setup, would all of the speakers need to be capable down to 20hz as well?

Michael.
Hello Michael,

as I said it has substantial hardware requirements... no, all speakers do not need to contribute all the way but the resulting treatment would be limited by the fact that they don't.
So the use of more than one subwoofer (or bass capable speaker) would be recommended.

Flavio

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f23-dsp-room-correction-and-multi-channel-audio/dirac-unity-ces2014-18972/

Thanks Nick, that was precisely the point I was trying to establish.
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post #1199 of 1805 Old 01-15-2014, 03:30 PM
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If you believe that, then I won't try to tell you otherwise.

Ha! Lol, there's no need for that mate! I'm just going of Diracs own description of the tech they use in Dirac Live. So what are you saying, their description is incorrect, or Dirac Live doesn't work as they say it does?
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images are created in the brain, so when you move they move with you.
The most audible change was the improvement in clarity. Lower frequency sounds that were ringing (had longer decay times) got tightened up and sounded sharper; most noticable on bass guitar plucks, drum whacks, etc. In addition, since these lower frequency sounds were decaying quicker, the side effect was that they no longer masked sounds at higher frequencies, exposing details that were previously obscured by the lingering bass. I could hear more clarity, for example, in the upper range of female vocals even though Unity wasn't correcting those particular frequencies.

It's a difference I'm very familiar with, having added room correction in 2004 to my old Lex processor. DSP horsepower wasn't anywhere near as powerful back then, so they concentrated the correction below 300Hz and just targeted frequencies with the longest decay times. This yielded the dual improvements I recognized with Unity: sounds in the correction range got tighter/clearer, while details above that range were unmasked and easier to hear. Of course the technology has come a loooong way in the 10 years since I first got it.

Thanks for the description. Did they say whether it could be applied to multi-channel playback, or just stereo tracks?
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post #1200 of 1805 Old 01-15-2014, 03:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

.....Tricky to create virtual speakers for multiple seats in a home theatre, since phantom images aren't stable. If you ever get a demo of any re-mapping technology, try moving out of the sweet spot.

 

Are there any other remapping technologies out there besides Trinnov?? 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wookii View Post

Fair one, I haven't actually heard Trinnov in action, so I wasn't aware it wasn't stable outside of the sweet spot.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

It's not about Trinnov in particular but phantom imaging in general. If you're going to map a sound to a location where there is no physical loudspeaker, like where you hear vocals in a 2-speaker set-up, then that location won't be the same for all listeners. Phantom images are created in the brain, so when you move they move with you.

 

Concerning phantom images- you would be correct.   However, with Trinnov, it's not the complete story.  As you say, where there there are no speakers, Trinnov will rely on a phantom image- and it will collapse as a function of how wide it is- typical phantom image behavior. 

 

The opposite is also is true- a wider sweet spot is possible- where a Trinnov Remapped loudspeaker improves a broader listening area because the added speaker is used to fill in a spatial gap.  A great example of this is the typical front to side speaker gap.  Placing a speaker in the 50-70 degree axis on the sides provides a sometimes dramatic spatial fill that enlarges the sweet spot.  There are many other examples of this- and it's why high channel count Trinnov's are favored. 

 

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