Official DataSat RS20i thread. (Setup Tips, Questions,General Info, etc) - Page 43 - AVS Forum
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post #1261 of 1947 Old 01-23-2014, 03:50 PM
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Originally Posted by SoundChex View Post

I was suffering from "Star Wars movie purchase fatigue" when Episodes I thru VI were released on BD, so I have stayed "pat" with the DVDs, but another re release of the original 6 movies on BD with remixed Auro-3D soundtracks might persuade me to upgrade...!? eek.gifcool.gif

I was actually referring to the NEW Star Wars films, Episodes 7, 8 and 9, which at to be released by Disney, the new owner of Lucas Film. It has been announced that they will be recorded and mixed in Auro3D.

That said, if they can remix the old Star Wars films in Auro, I'm game.
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post #1262 of 1947 Old 01-23-2014, 04:22 PM
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I wonder how much better a remixed auro3d soundtrack would be over an upmatrixed one using the new upmatrixer coming to the RS20i?
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post #1263 of 1947 Old 01-23-2014, 05:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Wookii View Post

I was actually referring to the NEW Star Wars films, Episodes 7, 8 and 9, which at to be released by Disney, the new owner of Lucas Film. It has been announced that they will be recorded and mixed in Auro3D.

Sorry. Your reference to the forthcoming SW Trilogy was quite clear and it was not my intention to contradict you...

However, beyond that issue, and given the "importance" of Episode VII, one option might be for J.J. Abrams to consider theatrical-to-home audio conversions into both Auro-3D and (the as yet largely unclear) DTS-UHD--both of which could likely be accommodated on the same BD--in order to provide support for 'more varied' 3D speaker playback configurations (plus playback environment and|or listener adaptation) when DTS-UHD decoders become more widely available!

. . . which would seem to lead directly into an obviously very premature question about how|when DATASAT plans to implement DTS-UHD...?! biggrin.gif
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post #1264 of 1947 Old 01-23-2014, 09:43 PM
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Originally Posted by JapanDave View Post

Hey Sanjay, I saw that, but I read it as it being the 9.1 Auro 3D not the 11.1???
I've heard 9.1 and 11.1 and 13.1. As Nick said, confused yet? A couple of music titles have been released with Auro3D encoding and they are 9.1 channels.

So, for the moment plan on at least 4 height speakers: one pair above your mains and another pair above your surrounds. If you have a 7.1 layout, then I would split the angles between your sides & rears for surround height location (see diagram).



You can always alter your plans and add more speakers (centre height and VOG) IF the Datasat upgrade includes those outputs. Until then, count on at least the 2 front heights and 2 surround heights.

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post #1265 of 1947 Old 01-23-2014, 10:00 PM
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The more standard layout with sides around 100 degrees would be a more effective choice in my experience. No need to drag sides so far back.

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post #1266 of 1947 Old 01-24-2014, 01:44 PM
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The more standard layout with sides around 100 degrees would be a more effective choice in my experience. No need to drag sides so far back.
ITU 5.1 shows the surrounds between 100 and 120 deg, so 100 is no more "standard" than 120. The idea was to split the difference for maximal spatial benefit. On paper anyway.

In my recent discussions with Bert, Auro 11.1 is 5 over 5.1 + VOG, and "13.1b" is 5 over 7.1 + VOG. There may be other 13.1 iterations.

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post #1267 of 1947 Old 01-24-2014, 02:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

ITU 5.1 shows the surrounds between 100 and 120 deg, so 100 is no more "standard" than 120. The idea was to split the difference for maximal spatial benefit. On paper anyway.

In my recent discussions with Bert, Auro 11.1 is 5 over 5.1 + VOG, and "13.1b" is 5 over 7.1 + VOG. There may be other 13.1 iterations.

Who is Bert, Roger?
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post #1268 of 1947 Old 01-24-2014, 02:23 PM
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^^ CTO, Auro.

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post #1269 of 1947 Old 01-24-2014, 02:26 PM
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It's all fun anyway. Next week all will be revealed...

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post #1270 of 1947 Old 01-24-2014, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

^^ CTO, Auro.

Right, did he confirm that was to be the implementation on the Datasat?
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post #1271 of 1947 Old 01-24-2014, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Wookii View Post

Right, did he confirm that was to be the implementation on the Datasat?
We were talking cinema and content. If the content is made that way, why would the Datasat not support to it?

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post #1272 of 1947 Old 01-24-2014, 02:38 PM
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Yes, bring on Wednesday. I hope all goes well Neil. I hear its gonna be a bit of a squeeze up at yours! Which is of course a good thing.
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post #1273 of 1947 Old 01-24-2014, 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

In my recent discussions with Bert, Auro 11.1 is 5 over 5.1 + VOG, and "13.1b" is 5 over 7.1 + VOG. There may be other 13.1 iterations.
Dan from Datasat told me last month that he had confirmed with Auro that the home version would be up to 13.1 (7.1 + 5 heights + VOG), despite the fact that just a month earlier he hosted a local AES meeting where a rep from Auro made it clear that the home version was 9.1 (5.1 + 4 heights, no centre height nor VOG). How quickly things change.

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post #1274 of 1947 Old 01-24-2014, 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Dan from Datasat told me last month that he had confirmed with Auro that the home version would be up to 13.1 (7.1 + 5 heights + VOG), despite the fact that just a month earlier he hosted a local AES meeting where a rep from Auro made it clear that the home version was 9.1 (5.1 + 4 heights, no centre height nor VOG). How quickly things change.
Perhaps there are different playback hardware profiles. AVRs do not like to support more than 9 amplifiers, whereas processors can handle more outputs.

The 13.1 bitstream is perfectly happy being played in either configuration.

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post #1275 of 1947 Old 01-24-2014, 02:56 PM
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The more standard layout with sides around 100 degrees would be a more effective choice in my experience. No need to drag sides so far back.
That would be fine for a 5.1-speaker set-up, where you need to strike a compromise between sounds coming from the sides and sound coming from behind you.

For a 7.1 layout, I wouldn't want all four surround speakers rearward of my listening position. With the rear speakers already behind me, I would place the other pair at my sides or slightly forward of the listening position, in order to get some rear-vs-side separation in the surround field.

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post #1276 of 1947 Old 01-24-2014, 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

[. . .] AVRs do not like to support more than 9 amplifiers, whereas processors can handle more outputs.

It will be interesting to see if "widespread adoption" of Auro-3D perhaps promotes a general changeover in mass market AVRs from 7.x on-board amps to 9.x...?!

One possible alternative might be to virtualize (say) the rear height speaker pair in an Auro-3D 9.1 playback configuration using something akin to either (Yamaha) Virtual Presence Speaker or Virtual CINEMA DSP for 7.1 Channel Surround Sound technology...?


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post #1277 of 1947 Old 01-24-2014, 09:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Dave, there has been a huge amount of debate between us guys in the UK, as to exactly how Auro3D will be implemented on the RS20i, and where we should place the various height speakers.

Genesis Technologies in the UK have basically installed a 15.x set-up in their demo facility - that being a standard 7 channel layer in the usual 7.1 channel layout, plus an additional 7 channel height layer directly above the lower layer, plus the VOG. This, I believe, is to cover all possibilities.

Datasat have already announced that up to 13.1 will be available on the RS20i - the debate is really which channels from that Genesis 15.1 layout will not be in the Auro3D spec. Certainly the rear height channel will be mono, I believe, so that takes us to 14.1.

From there several things are possible; options are a) the two rear back channels in the lower 7.1 layout could be summed together as a mono rear channel (giving 6.1), b) the rear mono height channel could be dropped, c) the front centre height channel could be dropped, d) the VOG channel could be dropped..

Personally my money is on a), but I know others disagree with that speculation, and I think it would be a shame if the two rear channel do get summed to a mono channel given the majority of blu-ray releases now seem to have discrete rear channels - but that is what I interpret from the information on the Auro3D site.

When Datasat formally release Auro3D at ISE in couple of weeks time, I'm hoping we'll finally get the answers to the last six month of speculation!
Thanks for the detailed explanation, will certainly be interesting on what they decide to do.
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I've heard 9.1 and 11.1 and 13.1. As Nick said, confused yet? A couple of music titles have been released with Auro3D encoding and they are 9.1 channels.

So, for the moment plan on at least 4 height speakers: one pair above your mains and another pair above your surrounds. If you have a 7.1 layout, then I would split the angles between your sides & rears for surround height location (see diagram).



You can always alter your plans and add more speakers (centre height and VOG) IF the Datasat upgrade includes those outputs. Until then, count on at least the 2 front heights and 2 surround heights.

That brings me to another question, what kind of horse power will we need for the additional height speakers etc? Will they be expected to play at reference when needed? If so, some pretty big speakers will be needed to be secured to the walls for sure. I am not sure many people will be able to have full size speakers in those suggested positions.

And since Dirac only handles 12 channels now, will that be upgraded to handle all 16 on the RS20i?

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post #1278 of 1947 Old 01-25-2014, 01:27 AM
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That brings me to another question, what kind of horse power will we need for the additional height speakers etc? Will they be expected to play at reference when needed?
First choice: same speakers + same amps for all channels. If you can't do that, then get smaller surrounds & heights that sound similar to your L/C/R speakers. If those surround speakers are too big for heights, then get something even smaller (but still as sonically similar as possible). Logistics will determine what your room can accomodate, just try to keep the timbre as consistent as you can.

Even in this day and age of surround sound, the front soundstage remains critical. That's where your attention will be focused, whether watching movies or listening to music. So my biggest priority is the L/C/R speakers. Second most important is surrounds; third is heights.

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post #1279 of 1947 Old 01-25-2014, 01:29 AM
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Thanks for the detailed explanation, will certainly be interesting on what they decide to do.
That brings me to another question, what kind of horse power will we need for the additional height speakers etc? Will they be expected to play at reference when needed? If so, some pretty big speakers will be needed to be secured to the walls for sure. I am not sure many people will be able to have full size speakers in those suggested positions.

And since Dirac only handles 12 channels now, will that be upgraded to handle all 16 on the RS20i?

I don't believe there will be any demanding power requirements for the height channel speakers to be honest Dave. Sure they will have to be able to reach reference SPL competently but they will not need to be full range, as they will cross over to the sub(s) in the same way the other surround speakers do.

I would also expect them to be reproducing less signal information than even the standard surrounds - mainly ambient and spatial effects with occasional specifically directed surround effects.

Any standard in wall or on wall surround speaker, or mini-monitor, will suffice - ideally matching (or at least timbre matching) the rest of your speakers.

As far as Dirac is concerned, it was my understanding that the full 16 channels gained Dirac optimisation capability with the Dolby card update?

More the issue now is running out of channels. Once you have 13 main speakers in play, you only have three channels for subs, and that's negates bi-amp systems utilising the RS20i as an active cross-over. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the Auro update includes a hardware card with a additional 8 channels on it.
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post #1280 of 1947 Old 01-25-2014, 01:41 AM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

That would be fine for a 5.1-speaker set-up, where you need to strike a compromise between sounds coming from the sides and sound coming from behind you.

For a 7.1 layout, I wouldn't want all four surround speakers rearward of my listening position. With the rear speakers already behind me, I would place the other pair at my sides or slightly forward of the listening position, in order to get some rear-vs-side separation in the surround field.
I thought Ceenhad was referring to the Lsh/Rsh speakers, since the Ls/Rs sides were not "so far back" at all.

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post #1281 of 1947 Old 01-25-2014, 02:04 AM
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I thought Ceenhad was referring to the Lsh/Rsh speakers, since the Ls/Rs sides were not "so far back" at all.
IF that's the case, I guess it threw me off when he referred to the height speakers as "sides".
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The more standard layout with sides around 100 degrees would be a more effective choice in my experience. No need to drag sides so far back.

Sanjay
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post #1282 of 1947 Old 01-25-2014, 03:52 AM
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Yes, it's does have 16 channels of Dirac since the new dsp card.
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post #1283 of 1947 Old 01-25-2014, 03:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

First choice: same speakers + same amps for all channels. If you can't do that, then get smaller surrounds & heights that sound similar to your L/C/R speakers. If those surround speakers are too big for heights, then get something even smaller (but still as sonically similar as possible). Logistics will determine what your room can accomodate, just try to keep the timbre as consistent as you can.

Even in this day and age of surround sound, the front soundstage remains critical. That's where your attention will be focused, whether watching movies or listening to music. So my biggest priority is the L/C/R speakers. Second most important is surrounds; third is heights.
That will be very hard to get the same size speakers as heights, as they are just too big.

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I don't believe there will be any demanding power requirements for the height channel speakers to be honest Dave. Sure they will have to be able to reach reference SPL competently but they will not need to be full range, as they will cross over to the sub(s) in the same way the other surround speakers do.

I would also expect them to be reproducing less signal information than even the standard surrounds - mainly ambient and spatial effects with occasional specifically directed surround effects.

Any standard in wall or on wall surround speaker, or mini-monitor, will suffice - ideally matching (or at least timbre matching) the rest of your speakers.

As far as Dirac is concerned, it was my understanding that the full 16 channels gained Dirac optimisation capability with the Dolby card update?

More the issue now is running out of channels. Once you have 13 main speakers in play, you only have three channels for subs, and that's negates bi-amp systems utilising the RS20i as an active cross-over. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the Auro update includes a hardware card with a additional 8 channels on it.
That will be very hard to do for most of the smaller speakers (Get reference levels with headroom @ the LP) I will have to do some research to what is out there.

I don't think Dirac can do the full 16 channels, as the software is separate to the Dolby card and there was no update for the Dirac software.

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post #1284 of 1947 Old 01-25-2014, 04:56 AM
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Yes Dirac can do 16. Well it can and does on mine!
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post #1285 of 1947 Old 01-25-2014, 05:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Yes Dirac can do 16. Well it can and does on mine!
So, if that is the case, it was the RS20i that was limiting the amount of channels able to have Dirac run on. Interesting. Thanks I did not know that.

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post #1286 of 1947 Old 01-25-2014, 07:52 AM
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We are running Leon Vault ultima custom made with a 45 degree driver angle in ceiling for all hight channels, in a 7.1 layout upper and lower with the 2 rear hight's, in mono with VOG. That leaves 2 ch, for the 4 subs ( in our case ) so you can use a splitter lead into a mini DSP for extra setup duties. That way we can still use the lower level in std, 7.1 and mono the rear lower and upper levels for Auro. I also feel this is a good layout for all future codecs.
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post #1287 of 1947 Old 01-25-2014, 07:55 AM
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There are no direct references to either speaker (Azimuth|Elevation) angles or planned max SPL in this 1/9/2014 article in Residential Systems (link), "HomeTronics Designs First Home Theater for Voice of God Audio System", which includes some details of a "28.12" (speakers) high-end home setup for Auro-3D (and presumably with relevance to future 3Daudio formats). However, the included 'Side Elevation' drawing (link) lets us infer some considerations which may have influenced speaker placement decisions:

  • All front and surround middle layer speakers lie in one flat plane tilted to accommodate the pitch of the stadium style seating.
  • Front height layer speakers are placed near the top of the display.
  • Side and rear surround height layer speakers all lie in one horizontal plane somewhat below the ceiling, and are tilted downward.
  • The 6 VOG speakers are centered approx half way between the front and rear walls.
  • You can never have too many sub woofers!

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post #1289 of 1947 Old 01-25-2014, 09:55 AM
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Quote:
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If those surround speakers are too big for heights, then get something even smaller (but still as sonically similar as possible).
That will be very hard to get the same size speakers as heights, as they are just too big.
That's why I suggested getting something smaller.

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post #1290 of 1947 Old 01-25-2014, 10:38 AM
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Considering heights have a modest impact in these systems, they cant only do so much to enhance listening, but if they are poor height speakers... You can definitely worsen the overall sound you spend so much money on with your mains.

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