Official DataSat RS20i thread. (Setup Tips, Questions,General Info, etc) - Page 52 - AVS Forum
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post #1531 of 1711 Old 05-11-2014, 11:59 AM
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Can you make target curve, EQ changes on the fly?

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #1532 of 1711 Old 05-11-2014, 12:12 PM
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Can you make target curve, EQ changes on the fly?

You can easily make eq changes on the fly. Target curves however would either require you to have already loaded a bank of Dirac filters with different curves, which you can then either assign to an input or just select on the fly.

Or, you would have to have your laptop with Dirac on and your saved measurements and then you can create new curves and upload to the RS20i. This would then require a hard reboot ( switch off from the rear of the RS20i and turn back on again ) which is required every time you send Dirac filters to the RS20i.
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post #1533 of 1711 Old 05-11-2014, 12:58 PM
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You can play your source as it's intended, ie, if a 2 channel recording - it can be played back in stereo. Or you can choose to upmix it using any of the upmixing algorithms.

You can even setup up multiple inputs for one physical input. Ie, you can have a stereo input for your CD player, a multichannel input or even an input with bass management turned off and speaker set to large.

Or you can do all on the fly.

It's the most flexible processor out there.

Thanks. Is the RS20i difficult to understand and use? Does it take some patience to know all its "ins" and "outs"?

My current main home theater is still in the DVD ages and my A/V receiver does not have any EQing capabilities. I was wondering if an RS20i would be overwhelming for me with all its features and options. Is it easy to run Dirac Live and get good results or does it take some "knowledgeable" effort(s) to get good results?
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post #1534 of 1711 Old 05-11-2014, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Kain View Post

Thanks. Is the RS20i difficult to understand and use? Does it take some patience to know all its "ins" and "outs"?

My current main home theater is still in the DVD ages and my A/V receiver does not have any EQing capabilities. I was wondering if an RS20i would be overwhelming for me with all its features and options. Is it easy to run Dirac Live and get good results or does it take some "knowledgeable" effort(s) to get good results?

Well the first thing I would do is NOT read the manual. It's makes the unit look impossible to understand. But in actual fact I find it one of the easiest machines to use. It's menu structure is very logical and you can set it up in such a way that you or your family can select inputs tailored to yours / their requirements.

With in 5 mins of getting my RS20i plugged in and running I had set up the bass management, delays and spl levels. Really quite simple.

And Dirac itself is really easy to use. Gives you tip / instructions as you go. But. The Dirac pc software / dongle / mic measurement kit is not included in the price of the RS20i and is a chargeable extra at around £2500. But this included a training course.

With a basic knowledge of how to measure your room, like how you would with audyssey then you can make a very good job of calibrating Dirac.

With more experience and further learning of other tools such as Room EQ Wizard you can really maximise your results in calibrating your system.

If you are not particularly experience in room acoustics and calibration then I would highly recommend you get someone in to calibrate for you. At the end of the day if you are spending this much money on your processor you really should get the best out of it.

I have learned a fair bit about acoustics etc over the years but I would certainly not call my self an expert. This is why once my room is finally finished and I have finished adding things, I will be getting in Neil from Genesis UK to calibrate for me as I rate him as one of the UKs best and foremost home cinema calibrators.
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post #1535 of 1711 Old 05-11-2014, 01:36 PM
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Well the first thing I would do is NOT read the manual. It's makes the unit look impossible to understand. But in actual fact I find it one of the easiest machines to use. It's menu structure is very logical and you can set it up in such a way that you or your family can select inputs tailored to yours / their requirements.

With in 5 mins of getting my RS20i plugged in and running I had set up the bass management, delays and spl levels. Really quite simple.

And Dirac itself is really easy to use. Gives you tip / instructions as you go. But. The Dirac pc software / dongle / mic measurement kit is not included in the price of the RS20i and is a chargeable extra at around £2500. But this included a training course.

With a basic knowledge of how to measure your room, like how you would with audyssey then you can make a very good job of calibrating Dirac.

With more experience and further learning of other tools such as Room EQ Wizard you can really maximise your results in calibrating your system.

If you are not particularly experience in room acoustics and calibration then I would highly recommend you get someone in to calibrate for you. At the end of the day if you are spending this much money on your processor you really should get the best out of it.

I have learned a fair bit about acoustics etc over the years but I would certainly not call my self an expert. This is why once my room is finally finished and I have finished adding things, I will be getting in Neil from Genesis UK to calibrate for me as I rate him as one of the UKs best and foremost home cinema calibrators.

Thanks for the input. I will be setting up a system next week and the first thing I was going to do was read the manual.

The only thing you said the bothers me is that even though you have the ability to get your RS20i up and running, you feel you still need outside assistance to maximize it's abilities. I have used the Theta CB, a number of Audyssey based SSP's, a 12 channel TacT SSP and a bunch of other SSP's and if thing is so complicated and I can not extract it's total capabilities on my own (with assistance initially), then this would not be a product for me. I like to tweak too much to have to depend on anyone else to maximize the capabilities of any product.

Anyone else who owns one of these care to comment?
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post #1536 of 1711 Old 05-11-2014, 01:41 PM
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Thanks for the input. I will be setting up a system next week and the first thing I was going to do was read the manual.

The only thing you said the bothers me is that even though you have the ability to get your RS20i up and running, you feel you still need outside assistance to maximize it's abilities. I have used the Theta CB, a number of Audyssey based SSP's, a 12 channel TacT SSP and a bunch of other SSP's and if thing is so complicated and I can not extract it's total capabilities on my own (with assistance initially), then this would not be a product for me. I like to tweak too much to have to depend on anyone else to maximize the capabilities of any product.

Anyone else who owns one of these care to comment?

Well I should clarify. The reason I am getting Neil in is not really anything to do with the RS20i or Dirac. Both of these I a very proficient on. Yes, Neil has done many many more Dirac calibrations than me so will be able to get the absolute best, but I really want him more for the entire system refinement.

Whilst I understand the basics of room acoustics and the basics of REW. Neil is a master. He fully understands sub time alignment / phasing etc much more tan I do. So it's really his experience in using REW to its utmost abilities to calibrate the room as a whole than his capabilities in using Dirac.
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post #1537 of 1711 Old 05-11-2014, 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post

Thanks for the input. I will be setting up a system next week and the first thing I was going to do was read the manual.

The only thing you said the bothers me is that even though you have the ability to get your RS20i up and running, you feel you still need outside assistance to maximize it's abilities. I have used the Theta CB, a number of Audyssey based SSP's, a 12 channel TacT SSP and a bunch of other SSP's and if thing is so complicated and I can not extract it's total capabilities on my own (with assistance initially), then this would not be a product for me. I like to tweak too much to have to depend on anyone else to maximize the capabilities of any product.

Anyone else who owns one of these care to comment?

A key tip for setting up Dirac.

Set up your delays and spl levels first. I find the best way to set up delays is to use REW with a loop back to get the exact time of flight in ms from speaker to mic. I then use these measurements to work out the exact delays required.

Then ensure bass management is turned off. Speakers set to large and full range to subs.

Then start the Dirac process.

Once you have completed Dirac you need to hard reboot the machine.

Then you need to enable bass management and use the setting you require, the settings that you will have ideally learned from using REW or similar tools in learning xovers / slopes etc.

Edit

Of course, you then need to redo your spl levels as Dirac will have applied filters that will have affected these.
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post #1538 of 1711 Old 05-11-2014, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by djnickuk View Post

Well the first thing I would do is NOT read the manual. It's makes the unit look impossible to understand. But in actual fact I find it one of the easiest machines to use. It's menu structure is very logical and you can set it up in such a way that you or your family can select inputs tailored to yours / their requirements.

With in 5 mins of getting my RS20i plugged in and running I had set up the bass management, delays and spl levels. Really quite simple.

And Dirac itself is really easy to use. Gives you tip / instructions as you go. But. The Dirac pc software / dongle / mic measurement kit is not included in the price of the RS20i and is a chargeable extra at around £2500. But this included a training course.

With a basic knowledge of how to measure your room, like how you would with audyssey then you can make a very good job of calibrating Dirac.

With more experience and further learning of other tools such as Room EQ Wizard you can really maximise your results in calibrating your system.

If you are not particularly experience in room acoustics and calibration then I would highly recommend you get someone in to calibrate for you. At the end of the day if you are spending this much money on your processor you really should get the best out of it.

I have learned a fair bit about acoustics etc over the years but I would certainly not call my self an expert. This is why once my room is finally finished and I have finished adding things, I will be getting in Neil from Genesis UK to calibrate for me as I rate him as one of the UKs best and foremost home cinema calibrators.

Thanks. If I were to get the RS20i, it would be my first processor with EQ capabilities. Would you say this is a "wrong" processor to start learning things on (more so about EQ)? I am not totally blank on EQ as I know you need to get different points in the room measured for the best results. However, I have zero experience with actually EQing a system.
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post #1539 of 1711 Old 05-11-2014, 02:00 PM
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Thanks. If I were to get the RS20i, it would be my first processor with EQ capabilities. Would you say this is a "wrong" processor to start learning things on (more so about EQ)? I am not totally blank on EQ as I know you need to get different points in the room measured for the best results. However, I have zero experience with actually EQing a system.

Well, IMO, the eq section of a processor is just the icing on the cake. So the reasons to get an RS20i would be for overal sound quality sans eq, flexability and features and upgradability.

Basically, if you want one of the best pros on the market with the most amount of codecs available, then this is the baby for you. But, as you no doubt know, it's not loose change. It's a fairly pricy bit of kit, but worth every last penny.

In terms of is this the pro to learn eq techniques on, I would say yes. As you can save all your eq sessions to different eq pressets and then switch between them to see how your eqing is evolving. Yes you can do similar with say an Ada processor but that is limited to just 8 channels and only a peq. Where as the RS20i has peq, 31 band eq and Dirac live.

Yes this is not as easy as say an audyssey enabled processor as it won't measure delays and spl for you, yet! When Dirac 2 comes out for the RS20i these features will be enabled. But there is no sound quality differences between Dirac 1 or Dirac 2.
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Originally Posted by djnickuk View Post

Well, IMO, the eq section of a processor is just the icing on the cake. So the reasons to get an RS20i would be for overal sound quality sans eq, flexability and features and upgradability.

Basically, if you want one of the best pros on the market with the most amount of codecs available, then this is the baby for you. But, as you no doubt know, it's not loose change. It's a fairly pricy bit of kit, but worth every last penny.

In terms of is this the pro to learn eq techniques on, I would say yes. As you can save all your eq sessions to different eq pressets and then switch between them to see how your eqing is evolving. Yes you can do similar with say an Ada processor but that is limited to just 8 channels and only a peq. Where as the RS20i has peq, 31 band eq and Dirac live.

Yes this is not as easy as say an audyssey enabled processor as it won't measure delays and spl for you, yet! When Dirac 2 comes out for the RS20i these features will be enabled. But there is no sound quality differences between Dirac 1 or Dirac 2.

Great, thanks. smile.gif

Will Dirac 2 support require any hardware changes to the RS20i or is it just a matter of running Dirac 2 vs. Dirac 1 and uploading the results to the processor?
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What features will DIRAC 2 bring to the table?

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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Great, thanks. smile.gif

Will Dirac 2 support require any hardware changes to the RS20i or is it just a matter of running Dirac 2 vs. Dirac 1 and uploading the results to the processor?

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Originally Posted by thebland View Post

What features will DIRAC 2 bring to the table?

Dirac 1 vs Dirac 2 is really only software interface changes to the main Dirac program used to calibrate the Dirac filters.

It doesn't bring any new features nor does it require any hardware or software changes to the RS20i. As said, sonically, there is no difference between the two revisions.

But what it will bring, or should I say fix, is the ability to auto measure delays and spls.

The one major game changer in Dirac is Dirac Unity. I am really hoping Datasat will pick this up as from the demos at last years Cedia ( could have been CES ) people were blown away by the new addition to the Dirac suite.
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Thanks for the input. I will be setting up a system next week and the first thing I was going to do was read the manual.

The only thing you said the bothers me is that even though you have the ability to get your RS20i up and running, you feel you still need outside assistance to maximize it's abilities. I have used the Theta CB, a number of Audyssey based SSP's, a 12 channel TacT SSP and a bunch of other SSP's and if thing is so complicated and I can not extract it's total capabilities on my own (with assistance initially), then this would not be a product for me. I like to tweak too much to have to depend on anyone else to maximize the capabilities of any product.

Anyone else who owns one of these care to comment?

Just want to touch back onto delays.

Do you have an RS20i? I only ask as it's not a case of measuring your speaker distances and just plumbing them into the unit like you would on any main stream pro.

It requires you to input the delays in ms and for you to find your reference speaker and work out all delays from this one speaker.

It's really best done using something like REW that will give you precise distances. Especially when setting up subs etc as they often have dsp which will impose a propagation delay.

For eg, my pro audio subs are 14ft from the MLP. So if I was to use this measurement I would have a very bad sounding bass response as when measured with REW I found out that the dsp in the PHC dsp amps adds about 30ms of delay. This of course needs to be taken into account when time aligning all your subs and subs to mains.
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post #1544 of 1711 Old 05-11-2014, 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted by djnickuk View Post


Dirac 1 vs Dirac 2 is really only software interface changes to the main Dirac program used to calibrate the Dirac filters.

It doesn't bring any new features nor does it require any hardware or software changes to the RS20i. As said, sonically, there is no difference between the two revisions.

But what it will bring, or should I say fix, is the ability to auto measure delays and spls.

The one major game changer in Dirac is Dirac Unity. I am really hoping Datasat will pick this up as from the demos at last years Cedia ( could have been CES ) people were blown away by the new addition to the Dirac suite.

Looking at the post above, does this new feature mean you don't need to physically enter speaker distances (like Trinnov)?

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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Looking at the post above, does this new feature mean you don't need to physically enter speaker distances (like Trinnov)?

Essentially yes. Dirac 1 has this feature but it doesn't work on the RS20i for some reason.

But I would still measure these manually and confirm with REW.
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Gotcha. Perhaps when the first person gets his, he can compare to REW. Hopefully DIRACs is similarly accurate.

Thanks!

BTW - What's your speaker config?

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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I agree with djnickuk in respect to set up ease of the RS20i (very easy) and also what a skilled calibrator brings to the equation (significant capability around REW etc). When I hear about the additional steps people like Neal do to ensure a correct set up then I know I still have much untapped potential in my system.

The troubles I have had in using Dirac were related to set up issues with the ASIO drivers, ensuring I set up the preamp properly etc. After that everything has been easy. After one Dirac session some funny things happened to my levels etc but after advice from another user, a simple system reset fixed that problem.

I expect another thing Dirac 2 will bring is a faster equalisation process as it appears it does not emit the same length of pink noise per channel as Dirac 1 - when we are now talking about eq'ing up to 16 channels that should speed things up quite a bit.

I also hope Dirac Unity is on the cards!
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post #1548 of 1711 Old 05-11-2014, 04:43 PM
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Dirac 2 is part of the Auro upgrade?

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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Dirac 2 is part of the Auro upgrade?

Not that I have heard.
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I agree with djnickuk in respect to set up ease of the RS20i (very easy) and also what a skilled calibrator brings to the equation (significant capability around REW etc). When I hear about the additional steps people like Neal do to ensure a correct set up then I know I still have much untapped potential in my system.

The troubles I have had in using Dirac were related to set up issues with the ASIO drivers, ensuring I set up the preamp properly etc. After that everything has been easy. After one Dirac session some funny things happened to my levels etc but after advice from another user, a simple system reset fixed that problem.

I expect another thing Dirac 2 will bring is a faster equalisation process as it appears it does not emit the same length of pink noise per channel as Dirac 1 - when we are now talking about eq'ing up to 16 channels that should speed things up quite a bit.

I also hope Dirac Unity is on the cards!

Yes, your right. Dirac 2 I believe will emit a sweep rather than PN making the process faster.

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Dirac 2 is part of the Auro upgrade?

No, not that I know of.

My speakers are setup for Auro 12.4.

B&W 802D LR
HTM1D Centre
804s Sides
805D rears
SCMS Side heights
805D Front heights
Sig 8NT VOG
2 PHC LFC 15-sm subs up front
2 Aerial SW12s at the rear
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The fan on the RS20i is rather quiet compared to the AP20. My Lab Gruppen amps make way more noise.

The lab's are downright noisy... Is there a fan mod on these?

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Thanks for all the replies. Does the fan speed up and down depending on temperature or does it always run at a constant speed?

It is variable. You can see the % speed in one of the System screens.

There are three exhaust openings, so I assume there are three fans, one the right side and two on the left (3/4 of the left side is taken up by two openings). There is a fairly small intake opening at the rear of the left side. I'd assume Datasat is using the quietest fans reasonably available for the CFM required.
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post #1553 of 1711 Old 05-11-2014, 06:02 PM
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Quieter than all my ADA units- especially the Reference (4 fans).

When I was sitting in a silent room with the RS20i, I could hear the fan, but once the music started- even at conversation level (60db or so) you couldn't hear it. If you're a classical music lover and sit in the room with your gear exposed then you'll notice the noise during very quiet passages.

Jeff, I would think that if the RS20i were in your rack that you'd be hard pressed to hear it over anything else (amps, projector, etc.) Are you going to replace your amps too?

Dan

I would agree with this 100%. I have never heard the fan when playing anything. However, if I am just reading a book the fan noise is clearly audible, but in those situations I just turn the RS20i off. My RS20i is 15' from the the listing position on a 45 degree diagonal, 7' high, facing the left side which has only one fan.
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post #1554 of 1711 Old 05-11-2014, 06:05 PM
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The lab's are downright noisy... Is there a fan mod on these?

There had been a rumour of a fan mod by Datasat for the RS20i although nothing further has been heard.

I would prefer that the RS20i was silent and I can hear it's fan quite easily (when there is no noise or quite passages in a movie etc) but I do not find it particularly intrusive. My unit is in an open rack under my screen at the front of my room about 9 feet from my seating poistion. Considering your understandable desire for a low noise floor it may be an issue for you if you have the unit in the same room.

It looks like the LS10 does not have a a fan (that is my speculation based on pictures that appear to indicate its side panels may act like a heat sink) - maybe down the track a future version of the RS20i could apply a similar solution albeit the DSPs used for Dirac on the RS20i may be responsible for different cooling needs for the RS20i.
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post #1555 of 1711 Old 05-11-2014, 07:19 PM
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Originally Posted by stephenbr View Post

There had been a rumour of a fan mod by Datasat for the RS20i although nothing further has been heard.

I would prefer that the RS20i was silent and I can hear it's fan quite easily (when there is no noise or quite passages in a movie etc) but I do not find it particularly intrusive. My unit is in an open rack under my screen at the front of my room about 9 feet from my seating poistion. Considering your understandable desire for a low noise floor it may be an issue for you if you have the unit in the same room.

It looks like the LS10 does not have a a fan (that is my speculation based on pictures that appear to indicate its side panels may act like a heat sink) - maybe down the track a future version of the RS20i could apply a similar solution albeit the DSPs used for Dirac on the RS20i may be responsible for different cooling needs for the RS20i.

Guys

I have the Rs20i for a few weeks now and I have been spending alot of time with it.. I was worried about the fan and I am not worried any longer. Apparently they have increased the size of the fan and somehow got it to be virtually silent. It runs about 8% fan speed normally and I have it crammed into my wall unit and I have never had the fan rev up and make more noise.I guess if it needed to it would ramp the fan speed but it never has.

This machine has blown my mind with its super extensive software setup capabilities that rival anything I have ever seen in the audio world ever. The beyond imaginable bass Management settings and 20 separate fully flexible environments make it awesome as far as setting up completely different programmed worlds to listen to.

I have been tweaking and playing and doing mostly surround sound testing and each day its blowing my mind. Being the Theta Casablanca guy, I of course had to look at this machine and over the coming weeks will be testing more. I hope to have the LS10 also soon and do some testing with that as well.

Sonics is a huge concern for most and I haven't done an A/B comparison yet but at first glance its very good. The software in this machine is over the top and the IP control and its extensive settings capability make it something you have to look at for top shelf surround sound systems.

I will be testing more and doing some 2 channel listening as well soon. More to follow.

Thanks
Craig
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post #1556 of 1711 Old 05-11-2014, 07:36 PM
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That's great news Craig - really keen to hear your thoughts as you play around with the Datasat more.
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post #1557 of 1711 Old 05-11-2014, 09:40 PM
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Looking at the post above, does this new feature mean you don't need to physically enter speaker distances (like Trinnov)?

In Trinnov you don't need physically to enter the distance of the speakers. During the callibration all speakers are listed with the distance from the mic. (listening position)
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post #1558 of 1711 Old 05-11-2014, 10:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by blazar View Post

The lab's are downright noisy... Is there a fan mod on these?
I have no idea. But being that they are pro amps I am guessing noise does not factor and b/c I have mine in a different room it does not worry me either.

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post #1559 of 1711 Old 05-12-2014, 03:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stephenbr View Post

There had been a rumour of a fan mod by Datasat for the RS20i although nothing further has been heard.

I would prefer that the RS20i was silent and I can hear it's fan quite easily (when there is no noise or quite passages in a movie etc) but I do not find it particularly intrusive. My unit is in an open rack under my screen at the front of my room about 9 feet from my seating poistion. Considering your understandable desire for a low noise floor it may be an issue for you if you have the unit in the same room.

It looks like the LS10 does not have a a fan (that is my speculation based on pictures that appear to indicate its side panels may act like a heat sink) - maybe down the track a future version of the RS20i could apply a similar solution albeit the DSPs used for Dirac on the RS20i may be responsible for different cooling needs for the RS20i.
P

I believe the ls10 has only 2 dsp chips as apposed to the 8 in the RS20i. Hence the need for active cooling.
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post #1560 of 1711 Old 05-12-2014, 03:58 AM
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Originally Posted by kamenoff View Post

In Trinnov you don't need physically to enter the distance of the speakers. During the callibration all speakers are listed with the distance from the mic. (listening position)

Yes. The unique mic does it all.

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