Official DataSat RS20i thread. (Setup Tips, Questions,General Info, etc) - Page 56 - AVS Forum
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post #1651 of 1940 Old 06-05-2014, 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by thebland View Post

Would this be expected on units that will be shipping with Auro? If not, updatable at home?

Thanks!

Dirac 2s main difference is more with user interface on the pc rather than in the RS20i. And unless they change the way the pc connects to the RS20i ( which I highly doubt ) then no hardware changes are needed and a simple firmware update should do it. They need to add the ability for the RS20i to output a full frequency sweep when commanded by the Dirac life software as it currently uses wide band PN.

I believe the pc software verification system is changing. It's currently a dongle style affair but will be changing to network authentification.

So, so long as the update is free, IMO it should be as it really brings no actual sonic benefits, then a simple firmware network update should do the job.

It's not like auro where the update I believe is completed via a USB key update. Now this I believe will be done in the home in the UK. But as any group of people could band together to buy a singe auro update key and share it amoungst themselves, we will have a Datasat dealer come out and update for us.
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Originally Posted by dschulz View Post

Yes, we're working on integrating Dirac 2 into the RS20i.

hey, do you know if Datasat are looking into Dirac unity?
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post #1652 of 1940 Old 06-05-2014, 06:38 PM
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I understand the issue of 'piracy' for Datasat as we seek to update our units to Auro3D. I also acknowledge how generally the unit is targeted to consumers using professional installers/high level support from the dealer (that includes Dirac set up etc) which does not reflect my own circumstances. In my IT ignorance are there critical issues as to why Datasat may not employ something similar to what Lumagen does in updating a Radiance XD/XE/XS series to 3D capability (ie the provision of a 'key' specific for a single user)?
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post #1653 of 1940 Old 06-06-2014, 10:26 AM
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post #1654 of 1940 Old 06-06-2014, 11:43 AM
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Is there a layman's term explanation of how it differs from Dirac Live?
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post #1655 of 1940 Old 06-06-2014, 11:51 AM
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The TV Guide synopsis: Dirac Unison is kinda like noise cancelling headphones for the low frequencies in your room, where each speaker gets a cancellation signal for all the other speakers, turning each of your speakers into active room treatments. The idea being that by cancelling/absorbing low frequency waves at or near the boundaries, you cut down on the interaction that causes room modes (aka resonances, standing waves, etc). Which in turn reduces the peaks & dips caused by those modes, not to mention the longer decay times as those frequencies linger in the room.

By comparison, Dirac Live is automated equalization.

Sanjay
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post #1656 of 1940 Old 06-06-2014, 12:13 PM
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Pretty interesting. So it sounds like due to the complexities involved in that cancellation signal, etc, that user intervention with a Dirac Unison system would be lesser than that with Live? I.e. you would have to trust the system more? I don't know that that is a bad thing if the system is truly revolutionary, that is just an observation. Would that be accurate?
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post #1657 of 1940 Old 06-06-2014, 01:56 PM
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The technology might be complex but the user experience shouldn't be. Whether you're using Dirac Unison to reduce room modes or using Dirac Live to equalize peaks & dips, the user's task shouldn't be more difficult than moving a mic around. In both cases, you have to trust the system just as much (unless you're willing to do independent before/after measurements).

Even though Dirac Unison will likely be expensive and only in high end systems used in dedicated theatres, I personally think this would be terrific technology for casual living rooms. In a dedicated theatre, I can cover the front wall behind the AT screen with lots of absorption, so that sounds from my surround speakers don't reflect off the front wall and muddy the soundstage.

That's difficult to do in a typical living room. But what if your L/C/R speakers could actively cancel at least some of the sound from your surround speakers that were going to reflect off the front wall and reflect off your big LCD screen above the fireplace? Then you wouldn't hear surround information from the wrong direction (in front of you) AND those reflections wouldn't muddy the front soundstage. All without ruining the aesthetics of your living room.

Sanjay
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post #1658 of 1940 Old 06-06-2014, 02:06 PM
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Sounds pretty nice. So when do we get it? smile.gif
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post #1659 of 1940 Old 06-06-2014, 03:37 PM
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Sorry if this is annoying, but why do you think the below would work when a few days ago you were skeptical that RC could correct for reflections?
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

...But what if your L/C/R speakers could actively cancel at least some of the sound from your surround speakers that were going to reflect off the front wall and reflect off your big LCD screen above the fireplace? Then you wouldn't hear surround information from the wrong direction (in front of you) AND those reflections wouldn't muddy the front soundstage. All without ruining the aesthetics of your living room.

Noah
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post #1660 of 1940 Old 06-06-2014, 03:42 PM
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

Sorry to be annoying, but I can't help but notice the inconsistency of the below with the skepticism you expressed a few days ago that RC could correct for reflections.
You're confusing my comments about equalization vs comments about a technology that is closer to a double bass array.

Sanjay
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post #1661 of 1940 Old 06-06-2014, 04:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

You're confusing my comments about equalization vs comments about a technology that is closer to a double bass array.

Or put another way, a full-range, multi-speaker version of what the old Bag End E-Trap was doing?

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post #1662 of 1940 Old 06-06-2014, 04:38 PM
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Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post

Or put another way, a full-range, multi-speaker version of what the old Bag End E-Trap was doing?
Not familiar with that device, but Dirac Unison defaults to 500Hz (doesn't correct above that) so it's not full range. It can be set higher, but then the sweet spot shrinks.

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post #1663 of 1940 Old 06-08-2014, 09:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

You're confusing my comments about equalization vs comments about a technology that is closer to a double bass array.

Either way the correction is susceptible to the phase of the correction signal varying with different listening positions.

But I guess you're restricting your comments to <500 Hz as indicated by your saying "at least some of the sound...".

Noah
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post #1664 of 1940 Old 06-08-2014, 09:13 PM
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

Either way the correction is susceptible to the phase of the correction signal varying with different listening positions.
So are placing two subs in a room.
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

But I guess you're restricting your comments to <500 Hz as indicated by your saying "at least some of the sound...".
500Hz is the default cutoff for the correction that Dirac Unison does.

Sanjay
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post #1665 of 1940 Old 06-14-2014, 04:55 AM
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I was all set to run some new calibrations tonight but struck some problems with my usbpre. It appears not to be picking up any sound. Phantom 48v is on but the leds are not indicating that they are monitoring any sound (even when gain is set high). Any thoughts?

Last edited by stephenbr; 06-14-2014 at 05:18 AM.
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post #1666 of 1940 Old 06-14-2014, 05:02 AM
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I assume you need Windows to run calibrations on the RS-20i?

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post #1667 of 1940 Old 06-14-2014, 05:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stephenbr View Post
I was all set to run some new calibrations tonight but struck some problems with my usbpre. It appears not to be picking up any sound. Phantom 48v is on but the leds are not indicating that they are monitoring any sound (even when gain is set high). Any thoughts?
You have the usbpre enabled in Windows playback/recording devices, and your laptop/PC is 32bit.?


I only know this because I use a usbPre1.5 when running REW.

Last edited by magicj1; 06-15-2014 at 12:49 AM.
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post #1668 of 1940 Old 06-14-2014, 12:30 PM
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Originally Posted by thebland View Post
I assume you need Windows to run calibrations on the RS-20i?

yes, you do. I was able to make the Dirac calibrations work with my Virtual machine on my Mac. I had success with 32 bit Win 7 via VMware fusion.

But for a cheap Win laptop, it wouldn't cost much.

I verified the Dirac measurements with outside measurements with SMAART (you could easily do the same with REW)- and tweaked the target curves using the outside measurements.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by magicj1 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by stephenbr View Post
I was all set to run some new calibrations tonight but struck some problems with my usbpre. It appears not to be picking up any sound. Phantom 48v is on but the leds are not indicating that they are monitoring any sound (even when gain is set high). Any thoughts?
You have the usbpre enabled in Windows playback/recording devices, and your laptop/PC is 32bit.?


I only know this because I use a usbPre1.5 when running REW.
Thanks majicj1 - everything is right with my laptop. It is definitely something to do with the usbpre. I can get some measurements and then it stops measuring. Occassionally disconnecting the mic appears to reset it and I can get one measurement position completed before it stops measuring.
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post #1670 of 1940 Old 06-15-2014, 05:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stephenbr View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by magicj1 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by stephenbr View Post
I was all set to run some new calibrations tonight but struck some problems with my usbpre. It appears not to be picking up any sound. Phantom 48v is on but the leds are not indicating that they are monitoring any sound (even when gain is set high). Any thoughts?
You have the usbpre enabled in Windows playback/recording devices, and your laptop/PC is 32bit.?


I only know this because I use a usbPre1.5 when running REW.
Thanks majicj1 - everything is right with my laptop. It is definitely something to do with the usbpre. I can get some measurements and then it stops measuring. Occassionally disconnecting the mic appears to reset it and I can get one measurement position completed before it stops measuring.

This is what the Tech support told me to do when I had some compatibility issues:

1) Download fresh installer.
2) Once its downloaded, it will download as a .ZIP file. This NEEDS to
be right clicked on, and "Extract all" be selected. This will unzip the
file to a new (unzipped) folder, most likely on the desktop or in the
downloads folder.
3) Once you browse to that folder, go into it and find the file labeled
Setup.exe, and right click on it. There should be an option for Run As
Administrator. This step is vital to getting the driver installed as
well, so if you do not see this, do not proceed.
4) Once you have the driver running as administrator, you can go ahead
and next your way through the installation the same as before.
5) Once the installation is complete, it will ask you to connect the
USBPre, and it will try to update driver software. At this point it
should warn you that the driver is not digitally signed, and you click
on "Continue Anyway".
6) After it does that, the USBPre should do a meter dance, and the
front panel buttons should allow you to enable 48V or switch between
input sources. If not, proceed to the next few steps, but if it does
work, you just have to set the USBPre as the defaults and you should be
good.

7) If the front panel still isn't allowing you to make changes, right
click on "Computer" and then left click on "Manage".
8) Once the management window pops up, click on "Device Manager" on the
left hand side. Then Click on Sound Video Game Controllers and see if
you see the USBPre, or USB Audio Device listed here.
9) Right click on the USBPre, and say "Update driver".
10) The first window will ask you if you want to search automatically,
or browse, and you'll want to browse.
11) The second window will ask you if you want to Browse, or select
from a list, and you want to select "Choose from a List".
12) This window should have 2 driver options available. USB Audio
Device, or USBPre audio device. You want to select USBPre Audio Device.
13) Once this is selected, you should be able to next your way through,
and it should start working once its through the install.

It's worth a shot.
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post #1671 of 1940 Old 06-15-2014, 05:16 AM
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Thx again majicj1 - I have also sent a message to Sound Devices Support but I will give your instructions a go in the next couple of days when I have the time.
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post #1672 of 1940 Old 06-15-2014, 01:33 PM
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For those interested in the Auro 3D add on, it now appears to be scheduled for availability in the first week of July

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post #1673 of 1940 Old 06-20-2014, 09:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
The technology might be complex but the user experience shouldn't be. Whether you're using Dirac Unison to reduce room modes or using Dirac Live to equalize peaks & dips, the user's task shouldn't be more difficult than moving a mic around. In both cases, you have to trust the system just as much (unless you're willing to do independent before/after measurements).

Even though Dirac Unison will likely be expensive and only in high end systems used in dedicated theatres, I personally think this would be terrific technology for casual living rooms. In a dedicated theatre, I can cover the front wall behind the AT screen with lots of absorption, so that sounds from my surround speakers don't reflect off the front wall and muddy the soundstage.

That's difficult to do in a typical living room. But what if your L/C/R speakers could actively cancel at least some of the sound from your surround speakers that were going to reflect off the front wall and reflect off your big LCD screen above the fireplace? Then you wouldn't hear surround information from the wrong direction (in front of you) AND those reflections wouldn't muddy the front soundstage. All without ruining the aesthetics of your living room.
Sanjay, thanks for the nice explanation - so interesting. The questions I have though is Dirac Unison's technology is only for room modes in low frequency below 500 herz, not for high frequency room reflection right? Also:

1. There must be some reason it is restricted to sub 500 hz only?

2. Do you need a calibrating mic for this? The cancelation seems like it could be done based on what it "measures/hears" electronically, not sonically?

Regards, Can
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Last edited by cannga; 06-20-2014 at 09:08 AM.
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post #1674 of 1940 Old 06-20-2014, 10:49 AM
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The questions I have though is Dirac Unison's technology is only for room modes in low frequency below 500 herz, not for high frequency room reflection right?
Right.
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There must be some reason it is restricted to sub 500 hz only?
The higher the frequency, the smaller the wavelength. The smaller the wavelength, the harder it is to make sure your ears are lined up where the two sounds meet (two sounds = unwanted reflection and cancellation signal).

At the CES demo, the Dirac rep was encouraging us to try different seats, in order to show off the fact that the results remained relatively consistent outside the sweet spot.

When I asked if they could raise their 500Hz default limit to a higher frequency, he said that they could, but raising it too high would require you listening with your head in a vise.
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Do you need a calibrating mic for this? The cancelation seems like it could be done based on what it "measures/hears" electronically, not sonically?
It is definitely based on in-room measurements, just as any other aspect of room correction. I didn't ask about the calibration process, so I don't know whether a special mic is required for Unisis.

Sanjay
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post #1675 of 1940 Old 06-20-2014, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

When I asked if they could raise their 500Hz default limit to a higher frequency, he said that they could, but raising it too high would require you listening with your head in a vise.
No problem here. I prefer to set up my listening chair Clockwork Orange style. That way I don't miss anything.
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post #1676 of 1940 Old 06-21-2014, 09:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Right. The higher the frequency, the smaller the wavelength. The smaller the wavelength, the harder it is to make sure your ears are lined up where the two sounds meet (two sounds = unwanted reflection and cancellation signal).

At the CES demo, the Dirac rep was encouraging us to try different seats, in order to show off the fact that the results remained relatively consistent outside the sweet spot.

When I asked if they could raise their 500Hz default limit to a higher frequency, he said that they could, but raising it too high would require you listening with your head in a vise. It is definitely based on in-room measurements, just as any other aspect of room correction. I didn't ask about the calibration process, so I don't know whether a special mic is required for Unisis.
Thanks. Transition frequency in room correction rears its head again!
You are indeed the eyes, um "ears," :-) of this forum for the latest advances in sound processing technology.
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Regards, Can
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post #1677 of 1940 Old 06-21-2014, 12:45 PM
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Thanks. Transition frequency in room correction rears its head again!
You are indeed the eyes, um "ears," :-) of this forum for the latest advances in sound processing technology.
+1
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post #1678 of 1940 Old 06-25-2014, 07:12 AM
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Yes it is supposed to. But I think I read that it doesn't work on the theta cb4? Either way I would still do it by using REW and loop back.
Is there an explanation somewhere of how to use REW and a loop back cable to set distances? I assume it would be just as useful for setting up any processor.
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post #1679 of 1940 Old 06-25-2014, 08:00 AM
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Originally Posted by hifiaudio2 View Post
Is there an explanation somewhere of how to use REW and a loop back cable to set distances? I assume it would be just as useful for setting up any processor.
The info is on the REW help forums. But essentially you tick a box in the preferences that tells REW to use loop back. And yes it's a powerful tool that should be used when setting up and processor.
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post #1680 of 1940 Old 06-25-2014, 01:36 PM
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I just ordered the Cross Spectrum labs usb mic so I can get started with REW soon.

I have been digging around for data on that loopback issue today. Do you use it for subwoofer distances? I found this info which says it doesn't work for subs...



If using a loopback as a reference REW can calculate the delay through the system being measured and show it in the measurement Info panel as "System Delay" in milliseconds, with the equivalent distance in feet and metres shown in brackets. Note that delay values are not accurate for subwoofer measurements due to the limited bandwidth of the subwoofer response, the delay estimate is based on the location of the peak of the impulse response and subwoofers have a broad peak and a delayed response.


From http://www.roomeqwizard.com/wizardhe.../analysis.html

After reading a bit more I am concerned that I cannot do this with the HDMI out / usb mic setup I was planning on using based on all of the current REW documents. Do I have to use a separate mic / preamp for loopback to work? Guess I need to cancel that mic order if thats the case. EDIT: I have had it confirmed that loopback only works on REW setups with external sound cards. I guess I either start looking at a setup with one of those or see if XTZ or Omnimic does anything similar.

Last edited by hifiaudio2; 06-25-2014 at 02:39 PM.
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