Official DataSat RS20i thread. (Setup Tips, Questions,General Info, etc) - Page 64 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1891 of 2653 Old 09-28-2014, 05:40 AM
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Sorry if this is the wrong forum.....


Went to demo some speakers yesterday.... B&W 802 Diamond, and the Rockport Atria.....


In the end, my dealer was trying to sell me the RS20i, and use it with my current speakers, the Monitor Audio PL100 standmounts....
Said the RS20i would give better sound with my current speakers, than new speakers on their own.....
Knowing how important the room is....I might be able to agree with that...


I do have to say, the RS20i is very impressive..... no doubt that it gave terrific sound....very advanced piece of equipment.....


Couple of things.... RS20i would replace my Denon 5308


RS20i does not seem to have enough inputs for my system as configured now....
I need the component inputs of the Denon and conversion to HDMI, for my projector system.....
No zone 2...or 3
Only 4 HDMI in, and only 1 HDMI out.....could use about 6 in, and 2 out.......
Only 2 audio inputs via RCA
and a few other shortcomings.....
I don't want to have to call the dealer to make any major changes in the system..... I like to tinker with things....


But soundwise, I was very impressed....


So what to do ?


How is everyone dealing with limited inputs ?
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post #1892 of 2653 Old 09-28-2014, 05:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shelly40 View Post
Sorry if this is the wrong forum.....


Went to demo some speakers yesterday.... B&W 802 Diamond, and the Rockport Atria.....


In the end, my dealer was trying to sell me the RS20i, and use it with my current speakers, the Monitor Audio PL100 standmounts....
Said the RS20i would give better sound with my current speakers, than new speakers on their own.....
Knowing how important the room is....I might be able to agree with that...


I do have to say, the RS20i is very impressive..... no doubt that it gave terrific sound....very advanced piece of equipment.....


Couple of things.... RS20i would replace my Denon 5308


RS20i does not seem to have enough inputs for my system as configured now....
I need the component inputs of the Denon and conversion to HDMI, for my projector system.....
No zone 2...or 3
Only 4 HDMI in, and only 1 HDMI out.....could use about 6 in, and 2 out.......
Only 2 audio inputs via RCA
and a few other shortcomings.....
I don't want to have to call the dealer to make any major changes in the system..... I like to tinker with things....


But soundwise, I was very impressed....


So what to do ?


How is everyone dealing with limited inputs ?
I have 2 Blu Ray players, Cable box and Apple TV in my 4 inputs. I run the extra outputs of the Blu Ray players to various inputs on my display monitor in my equipment room (HDMI2 on my Oppo and composite on my Denon BD - used to cue up movies, demos,etc).

There are goos serial controlled switchers you can use to make more virtual inputs but as my room is 100% Blu Ray 4 inputs is plenty (I would've liked a second HDMI output, however).

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post #1893 of 2653 Old 09-28-2014, 10:02 AM
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Copied from the Official Theta thread (post 73089) as more appropriate here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by GGA
I think you also have to take the level/trim control into account since, I assume, Datasat does it the digital domain. Meridian has an exotic analog/digital hybrid trim control to help minimize bit loss, the only company I know that does this.

My assumption is that for the analog output path the Datasat operates like all other AV processors, where the trims and volume are all handled in the same analog volume control.

Also doesn't the Theta DAC have a volume control in the analog domain? If so you could use this to possibly minimize use of the Datasat trim control.

Yes, it has an analog volume control. I was just addressing the question of the Datasat's digital volume control in the event it is not easy to coordinate control of the external Theta control with the rest of the RS20i's internal analog channels.
The Datasat has the ability to be a 100% digital processor, digital in, digital out, so I assumed Levels would be done in the digital domain. If you want to use the digital volume control you have to select it in the Menu. Perhaps Datasat can do Levels both ways, depending on whether the digital or analog VC is being used.

When settings Levels using Digital outputs, the Levels can only be decreased. With the analog VC they can be increased up to 10dB. This is why I mentioned possibly using the Theta DACs VC as a Level control, although it may only be an attenuator???

I brought up the Meridian as it also has digital and analog outputs but its VC can control both simultaneously, so its hybrid Level control (which can be set for increases) is very clever. This was some 5 years ago, so I don't know if there have been changes.

Last edited by GGA; 09-28-2014 at 10:07 AM.
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post #1894 of 2653 Old 09-28-2014, 10:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GGA View Post
Copied from the Official Theta thread (post 73089) as more appropriate here:



The Datasat has the ability to be a 100% digital processor, digital in, digital out, so I assumed Levels would be done in the digital domain. If you want to use the digital volume control you have to select it in the Menu. Perhaps Datasat can do Levels both ways, depending on whether the digital or analog VC is being used.

When settings Levels using Digital outputs, the Levels can only be decreased. With the analog VC they can be increased up to 10dB. This is why I mentioned possibly using the Theta DACs VC as a Level control, although it may only be an attenuator???

I brought up the Meridian as it also has digital and analog outputs but its VC can control both simultaneously, so its hybrid Level control (which can be set for increases) is very clever. This was some 5 years ago, so I don't know if there have been changes.
Ok, I think I'm starting to understand this.

I have just checked and with digital volume enabled I can still control my analog volumes. So if all my trims are below 0, which they are, then with digi volume enabled I should be able to operate the RS20i main fader and control the volume going out of the onboard dacs and the theta dac simultaneously doing away with the need for some macro on my controlling devices.
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post #1895 of 2653 Old 09-28-2014, 10:20 AM
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From the same thread:

Quote:
Thanks Roger. But I'm still not sure if this will allow me to use the Datasat to control the volume of the external dac or if I'll have to run a macro to adjust both the volume on the dac and the rs20i.
If you select the digital VC mode I don't think you would have any trouble controlling both the digital and analog outputs simultaneously from the Datasat. I would be more concerned about sufficient maximum loudness since you are limited by the gain the Theta provides. In the Datasat the DACs are all matched. If the Theta, for some reason, has a lower gain you will be limited by this gain, since there is no easy way to make it louder. It should not be problem, but you should test it before committing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GGA

One thing I have always wondered about in using a external DAC only for only the L/R is how it would blend with the Center channel. Assuming the DAC makes an appreciable difference it might not be ideal when you using all three front channels??



This concerns me also. I also wonder if it's a worthy upgrade if 90 % of my listening is movies and tv. I virtually never listen to stereo music. I'm thinking perhaps the money is better spent elsewhere....
The easy solution is buy two Thetas!
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post #1896 of 2653 Old 09-28-2014, 10:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djnickuk View Post
Ok, I think I'm starting to understand this.

I have just checked and with digital volume enabled I can still control my analog volumes. So if all my trims are below 0, which they are, then with digi volume enabled I should be able to operate the RS20i main fader and control the volume going out of the onboard dacs and the theta dac simultaneously doing away with the need for some macro on my controlling devices.
That is correct.

See my other post, which as made at the same time as yours.

It will be important to see if the gain of the Theta DAC is in ballpark, but with your Level settings it seems like you should be ok.
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post #1897 of 2653 Old 09-28-2014, 10:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GGA View Post
That is correct.

See my other post, which as made at the same time as yours.

It will be important to see if the gain of the Theta DAC is in ballpark, but with your Level settings it seems like you should be ok.
Thanks for all your help. But it looks like the money would def be better spent else where with my listening habits. As said in the other thread, I'm thinking of getting an MSB UMT+ and I could spend that money that was ear marked for a dac on a clock upgrade.
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post #1898 of 2653 Old 09-28-2014, 09:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shelly40 View Post
Sorry if this is the wrong forum.....


Went to demo some speakers yesterday.... B&W 802 Diamond, and the Rockport Atria.....


In the end, my dealer was trying to sell me the RS20i, and use it with my current speakers, the Monitor Audio PL100 standmounts....
Said the RS20i would give better sound with my current speakers, than new speakers on their own.....
Knowing how important the room is....I might be able to agree with that...


I do have to say, the RS20i is very impressive..... no doubt that it gave terrific sound....very advanced piece of equipment.....


Couple of things.... RS20i would replace my Denon 5308


RS20i does not seem to have enough inputs for my system as configured now....
I need the component inputs of the Denon and conversion to HDMI, for my projector system.....
No zone 2...or 3
Only 4 HDMI in, and only 1 HDMI out.....could use about 6 in, and 2 out.......
Only 2 audio inputs via RCA
and a few other shortcomings.....
I don't want to have to call the dealer to make any major changes in the system..... I like to tinker with things....


But soundwise, I was very impressed....


So what to do ?


How is everyone dealing with limited inputs ?
Just curious, did you not discuss this with the person who was selling you the machine?
I am pretty sure you can make your own Zones with separate EQ Filters matching what speakers and devises you have via the Macro setup screen. Maybe Peter could chime in as he has done some pretty wild setups and I believe he is a dealer as well, so also could assist setups like that.

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post #1899 of 2653 Old 10-04-2014, 02:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JapanDave View Post
Just curious, did you not discuss this with the person who was selling you the machine?
I am pretty sure you can make your own Zones with separate EQ Filters matching what speakers and devises you have via the Macro setup screen. Maybe Peter could chime in as he has done some pretty wild setups and I believe he is a dealer as well, so also could assist setups like that.
Thanks for the plug Dave, but I have not done multiroom,I did discuss this with Carl who has an idea....best!

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post #1900 of 2653 Old 10-07-2014, 12:59 PM
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Is any word out yet on what the Dolby Atmosvupgrade for the RS20i will be?
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post #1901 of 2653 Old 10-09-2014, 07:09 AM
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Some questions for RS20i owners who did their own install.

1. I am trying to do a direct compare of the RS20 (on loan from the dealer) to an Integra 80.2. I have been to California for a day of training on the RS20i. I ran frequency sweeps on the left front channel through both processors and got them EXACTLY aligned since we know that volume greatly impacts our impressions of "best". The issue came about that even though the frequency sweeps were absolutely identical (no room correction on either system), when playing music, the RS20i was clearly louder (by about 2 db). Any thoughts on why?

2. When watching some various movie clips, without touching the volume, there were HUGE differences between the clips on the RS20 but not on the Integra?? Comments?

3. When watching the volume bars during some loud action scenes, I saw what I assumed were red at the top of the bars which I guess indicated clipping. How do I fix that?

4. When you ran Dirac, did you or did you not use the high pass option on your non-sub speakers? If you did use it, did you go with what Dirac recommended or did you modify it. I ask because the bass with my current RS20 settings is very inconsistent and not as good as the Integra. When measuring just the subs corrected by Dirac, it is absolutely ruler flat. See below (the black line is from Dirac). So it is clearly the integration of the bass with the mains that is the issue and I'm trying to determine what I need to change/modify/fix.



I ran Dirac with bass management off as I was instructed by Datasat.

Any assistance would be most appreciated.

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post #1902 of 2653 Old 10-09-2014, 07:27 AM
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
Some questions for RS20i owners who did their own install.

1. I am trying to do a direct compare of the RS20 (on loan from the dealer) to an Integra 80.2.
I am very interested in your verdict is price difference is by factor 10!
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post #1903 of 2653 Old 10-09-2014, 07:38 AM
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I am very interested in your verdict is price difference is by factor 10!
We did some initial listening/comparing (blind) using CD music as a source (over HDMI) with no bass management and no Dirac/Audyssey. Without going into great detail, let's just say the Integra acquitted itself quite well. And that was really no surprise. Not saying there were no differences, BUT not $18,000 worth (at least not my $18,000). The real test is comparing the two with all of their capabilities invoked running a full 7.1 system. But until I can get the above questions answered, that will have to wait a bit.

As I noted in another thread, I struggle with expectation bias. Actually I think everyone does but many won't admit it. When we (there were two of us) first listened to the two, knowing which was which, the Datasat was the clear winner - by a long shot. BUT, once we got the volume balanced and listened blind, a whole different story.

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Last edited by audioguy; 10-09-2014 at 11:00 AM.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
Some questions for RS20i owners who did their own install.

1. I am trying to do a direct compare of the RS20 (on loan from the dealer) to an Integra 80.2. I have been to California for a day of training on the RS20i. I ran frequency sweeps on the left front channel through both processors and got them EXACTLY aligned since we know that volume greatly impacts our impressions of "best". The issue came about that even though the frequency sweeps were absolutely identical (no room correction on either system), when playing music, the RS20i was clearly louder (by about 2 db). Any thoughts on why?

2. When watching some various movie clips, without touching the volume, there were HUGE differences between the clips on the RS20 but not on the Integra?? Comments?

3. When watching the volume bars during some loud action scenes, I saw what I assumed were red at the top of the bars which I guess indicated clipping. How do I fix that?

4. When you ran Dirac, did you or did you not use the high pass option on your non-sub speakers? If you did use it, did you go with what Dirac recommended or did you modify it. I ask because the bass with my current RS20 settings is very inconsistent and not as good as the Integra. When measuring just the subs corrected by Dirac, it is absolutely ruler flat. See below (the black line is from Dirac). So it is clearly the integration of the bass with the mains that is the issue and I'm trying to determine what I need to change/modify/fix.



I ran Dirac with bass management off as I was instructed by Datasat.

Any assistance would be most appreciated.
I would say points one and three will be down to input trim which can be adjusted within the Global Delay and Surround Ofset menu.

Point two, I'd hazard a guess at Dynamic Range control being on on the integra? But I have this off on my RS20i and can't say its something I've noticed in the couple years I've owned it.

Point 4, I generally roll off at around 15khz. And your bass integration issues sound either to do with delays and or the db roll off levels within Bass management and Dirac. You really need to run REW so you can ensure you have all your channels integrated correctly and time aligned. As you'll know from attending the course, delays are not as simple as putting in the distance in feet. Finding reference speakers and working out distances from this speaker and converting to MS.
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post #1905 of 2653 Old 10-09-2014, 10:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djnickuk View Post
I would say points one and three will be down to input trim which can be adjusted within the Global Delay and Surround Ofset menu.
I will look at that. I meant to ask how one deals with the lip sync issue so I assume global delays is the way?

Quote:
Point two, I'd hazard a guess at Dynamic Range control being on on the integra? But I have this off on my RS20i and can't say its something I've noticed in the couple years I've owned it.
Oops!! I did not read this in the manual nor hear about it during training so I (very incorrectly) assumed DRC meant digital room correction and not dynamic range control. It is on in the Datasat and Off in the Integra. That should help a bunch.

Quote:
Point 4, I generally roll off at around 15khz. And your bass integration issues sound either to do with delays and or the db roll off levels within Bass management and Dirac. You really need to run REW so you can ensure you have all your channels integrated correctly and time aligned. As you'll know from attending the course, delays are not as simple as putting in the distance in feet. Finding reference speakers and working out distances from this speaker and converting to MS.
OmniMic latest data disk has a great way to time align speakers. It runs two speakers simultaneously (the front left plus one more) and you adjust the delays of one speaker such that in the Impulse Response area, you only see a single peak. It is the perfect way to address it bu, unfortunately does not have the easy ability to do a 7.1 test. What I was going to try was to route (in the routing screen)my left surround to my left rear, turn off the left surround and see if that will get me there.

Thanks so much for your assistance. Let me know on the high pass under Dirac.

With respect to my question on setting high and low pass in Dirac, I was specifically asking about high pass and you noted what you do for low pass (roll off at 15K). What do you do for high pass?

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post #1906 of 2653 Old 10-09-2014, 11:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
I will look at that. I meant to ask how one deals with the lip sync issue so I assume global delays is the way?



Oops!! I did not read this in the manual nor hear about it during training so I (very incorrectly) assumed DRC meant digital room correction and not dynamic range control. It is on in the Datasat and Off in the Integra. That should help a bunch.



OmniMic latest data disk has a great way to time align speakers. It runs two speakers simultaneously (the front left plus one more) and you adjust the delays of one speaker such that in the Impulse Response area, you only see a single peak. It is the perfect way to address it bu, unfortunately does not have the easy ability to do a 7.1 test. What I was going to try was to route (in the routing screen)my left surround to my left rear, turn off the left surround and see if that will get me there.

Thanks so much for your assistance. Let me know on the high pass under Dirac.

With respect to my question on setting high and low pass in Dirac, I was specifically asking about high pass and you noted what you do for low pass (roll off at 15K). What do you do for high pass?
Interesting - was DRC on in the RS20i when you did your comparisons to the Integra?

Regarding your time alignment software, does this work with subs too? These are often the furthest away in terms of signal delay.

With regards to your question on high and low pass in Dirac, Dirac should be run on the full frequency range for all speakers. The roll off that Nick is referring to is the editing of the target curve.
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post #1907 of 2653 Old 10-09-2014, 12:46 PM
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Datasat was sending me one AURO DEMO disc and I rerouted to Jeff, let us know Jeff!

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Datasat was sending me one AURO DEMO disc and I rerouted to Jeff, let us know Jeff!
Peter,

You have been great! I am so excited to hear native AURO material in my theater. We'll see what these new codecs can do in a home environment under far better conditions (and, arguably, better equipment) than a trade show set up!

I'm watching my mailbox.

Everything just sounds fantastic!

Thanks!

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post #1909 of 2653 Old 10-09-2014, 01:57 PM
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You'll be amazed Jeff. In fact, even the Dolby Atmos Dem disc sounds better thru Auromatic than it does in Atmos. Go figure....
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post #1910 of 2653 Old 10-09-2014, 01:59 PM
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Peter,

You have been great! I am so excited to hear native AURO material in my theater. We'll see what these new codecs can do in a home environment under far better conditions (and, arguably, better equipment) than a trade show set up!

I'm watching my mailbox.

Everything just sounds fantastic!

Thanks!
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post #1911 of 2653 Old 10-09-2014, 03:17 PM
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Fast!!


Jeff

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post #1912 of 2653 Old 10-09-2014, 03:17 PM
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You'll be amazed Jeff. In fact, even the Dolby Atmos Dem disc sounds better thru Auromatic than it does in Atmos. Go figure....
Some sort of aromatic perfume? I often find that upmixing a stereo music source with PLIIx sounds better than the real 5.1 mix. But it does not have the same directional detail. Would it be fair to say that Auromatic cannot duplicate the discrete overhead effects of an Atmos mix?

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post #1913 of 2653 Old 10-09-2014, 04:25 PM
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Dolby Atmos Dem disc sounds better thru Auromatic than it does in Atmos.
Wait, I've got some of those too:

- I was playing language tapes through Auromatic and my German shepherd now barks in French.

- I bought a car with Auromatic built-in, as I drove it off the lot it increased in value.

- Superman has pajamas with the Auromatic logo.

- When a tree falls in the forest and no one is there, you can still hear it with Auromatic.

- If opportunity knocks, but you're busy listening to music through Auromatic, opportunity will wait.

- Playing a Charlie Chaplin film using Auromatic can make a weeping willow laugh.

- The designer of Auromatic won the lifetime achievement award...twice!

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post #1914 of 2653 Old 10-09-2014, 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted by djnickuk View Post
You'll be amazed Jeff. In fact, even the Dolby Atmos Dem disc sounds better thru Auromatic than it does in Atmos. Go figure....

Djnick,
Since you're apparently also heard Atmos BluRay demo material, can you elucidate which of the Dolby Atmos demo clips sounded better through Auromatic that in a native Atmos configuration, and specific instances in those clips? And since it's unlikely you heard these clips in the same pre/pro, which pre/pro and speaker configurations were used for Atmos and Auro?

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post #1915 of 2653 Old 10-09-2014, 11:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
Some sort of aromatic perfume? I often find that upmixing a stereo music source with PLIIx sounds better than the real 5.1 mix. But it does not have the same directional detail. Would it be fair to say that Auromatic cannot duplicate the discrete overhead effects of an Atmos mix?
Fact is the atmos disc kicks ass on my LG 4k3dtv, so the mix is rich...

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post #1916 of 2653 Old 10-10-2014, 12:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
Some sort of aromatic perfume? . . .
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Wait, I've got some of those too:

- I was playing language tapes through Auromatic and my German shepherd now barks in French.

- I bought a car with Auromatic built-in, as I drove it off the lot it increased in value.

- Superman has pajamas with the Auromatic logo.

- When a tree falls in the forest and no one is there, you can still hear it with Auromatic.

- If opportunity knocks, but you're busy listening to music through Auromatic, opportunity will wait.

- Playing a Charlie Chaplin film using Auromatic can make a weeping willow laugh.

- The designer of Auromatic won the lifetime achievement award...twice!
I always find it quite amusing when forum users openly dispute another users findings having never conducted the disputed test themselves!
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post #1917 of 2653 Old 10-10-2014, 12:57 AM
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I always find it quite amusing when forum users openly dispute another users findings having never conducted the disputed test themselves!
Users, as in plural? I dispute that my comments could be seen as disputing anything.

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post #1918 of 2653 Old 10-10-2014, 01:35 AM
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Users, as in plural? I dispute that my comments could be seen as disputing anything.
Sorry Roger, my apologies, I must have misinterpreted the first sentence in you post with the 'Roll Eyes [Sarcastic] similie, I thought you were implying that Nick's finding were incorrect/improbable. I'm pleased that you dispute your dispute of the disputed matter. . .
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post #1919 of 2653 Old 10-10-2014, 01:58 AM
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Sorry Roger, my apologies, I must have misinterpreted the first sentence in you post with the 'Roll Eyes [Sarcastic] similie, I thought you were implying that Nick's finding were incorrect/improbable. I'm pleased that you dispute your dispute of the disputed matter. . .
I appreciate your reply. I was just using the rolleyes to acknowledge my little wordplay between aromatic and Auromatic.

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Aerial Acoustics 7B/CC3B fronts, B&W CWM8180 surrounds, Tannoy Di6 DC heights, Hsu ULS-15 subs
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post #1920 of 2653 Old 10-10-2014, 03:36 AM
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I'll get to try it out tonight. Will report back. Godzilla tonight as main feature!

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There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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