Official DataSat RS20i thread. (Setup Tips, Questions,General Info, etc) - Page 70 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2071 of 2250 Old 01-21-2015, 10:53 AM
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Originally Posted by djnickuk View Post
Well I don't think I'll bother getting my oppo modded to digital outs now... I hadn't realised this...

On the home screen the SURROUND button is disabled when the source is Digital (Digital Ch: 1-16). There are no decoder functions are available with that source selection.
Yeah same here mate, I was looking at a 103D with Vanity board for SACD playback into the digital inputs.

The digital inputs have a few different input options though, so it may be worth trying some of the others.
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post #2072 of 2250 Old 01-21-2015, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
Yeah same here mate, I was looking at a 103D with Vanity board for SACD playback into the digital inputs.

The digital inputs have a few different input options though, so it may be worth trying some of the others.
While you cannot decode in the Datasat using Ch1-8, processing such as PLIIx and Neo:X does work. I guess the big question is whether the Auro/Atmos upmixer can be used with Ch1-8.

With an Auro disc you will certainly have to use HDMI in order to use the decoding in the Datasat.
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post #2073 of 2250 Old 01-21-2015, 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by westmd View Post
One quick question about the Datasat and it's handling of back speakers. I know it has been discussed sonewhere before but I could't find it so apologies for repeatinf the something!

In case of a legacy 5.1 sound played through the Auromatic, are the back surround speakers just a copy of the side surrounds or is there any algorhythm in Auromatic to create a back surround signal, different from side surrounds?
The AuroMatic upmixer is using its algorithm to create the 13.1 channel sound track - the back channels are not simple copies of the side surrounds, but are being created as part of the overall upmix.

One exception to this, though - if the 5.1 soundtrack is encoded using DTS-HD Master Audio, then the DTS decoder does copy the side surrounds to the back surrounds. This happens before the handoff to AuroMatic, so at that point AuroMatic "sees" a 7.1 sound track and upmixes from that.
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post #2074 of 2250 Old 01-21-2015, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by dschulz View Post
The AuroMatic upmixer is using its algorithm to create the 13.1 channel sound track - the back channels are not simple copies of the side surrounds, but are being created as part of the overall upmix.

One exception to this, though - if the 5.1 soundtrack is encoded using DTS-HD Master Audio, then the DTS decoder does copy the side surrounds to the back surrounds. This happens before the handoff to AuroMatic, so at that point AuroMatic "sees" a 7.1 sound track and upmixes from that.
How come a DTS-MA 6.1 track sends nothing to the rears then Dan? Is this a bug or an intentional down mix into the side surrounds?
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post #2075 of 2250 Old 01-21-2015, 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by GGA View Post
While you cannot decode in the Datasat using Ch1-8, processing such as PLIIx and Neo:X does work. I guess the big question is whether the Auro/Atmos upmixer can be used with Ch1-8.

With an Auro disc you will certainly have to use HDMI in order to use the decoding in the Datasat.
Well certainly the Ch 1,2 setting allows me to use the Auro upmixer with two channels.
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post #2076 of 2250 Old 01-21-2015, 01:44 PM
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How come a DTS-MA 6.1 track sends nothing to the rears then Dan? Is this a bug or an intentional down mix into the side surrounds?
That's a bug. Should be fixed on the latest software version that was just posted.
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post #2077 of 2250 Old 01-21-2015, 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted by dschulz View Post
The AuroMatic upmixer is using its algorithm to create the 13.1 channel sound track - the back channels are not simple copies of the side surrounds, but are being created as part of the overall upmix.

One exception to this, though - if the 5.1 soundtrack is encoded using DTS-HD Master Audio, then the DTS decoder does copy the side surrounds to the back surrounds. This happens before the handoff to AuroMatic, so at that point AuroMatic "sees" a 7.1 sound track and upmixes from that.
Thanks!
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post #2078 of 2250 Old 01-21-2015, 03:55 PM
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That's a bug. Should be fixed on the latest software version that was just posted.
Thanks Dan
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post #2079 of 2250 Old 01-21-2015, 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by dschulz View Post
The AuroMatic upmixer is using its algorithm to create the 13.1 channel sound track - the back channels are not simple copies of the side surrounds, but are being created as part of the overall upmix.

One exception to this, though - if the 5.1 soundtrack is encoded using DTS-HD Master Audio, then the DTS decoder does copy the side surrounds to the back surrounds. This happens before the handoff to AuroMatic, so at that point AuroMatic "sees" a 7.1 sound track and upmixes from that.
I've been corrected by Engineering - the DTS speaker re-mapping is disabled when AuroMatic is engaged, so in all cases a 5.1 source will be upmixed to 13.1 (including the back surrounds independently of the side surrounds) by the AuroMatic algorithms.

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Originally Posted by dschulz View Post
That's a bug. Should be fixed on the latest software version that was just posted.
Correction: will be fixed in the *next* software release.
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post #2080 of 2250 Old 01-21-2015, 08:01 PM
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Hi All

I’m a new owner of the RS20i, and I’m hoping to get some wisdom from some of you experienced members.

First, some observations:
A couple of negatives observations -
1. I suspect the manual was originally written in Ancient Egyptian hieroglyphs, translated by Greek monks, then years later translated to Czech, and then finally English. Some of the clarity may have been lost in translation (LOL). It appears to be several software versions behind as the menus don’t match up. Also, it was written from the perspective of someone setting up there own unit, not so much from the perspective of someone who just wants to use the unit.

2. I also have the issue where there is no volume when firing up the unit. The Datasat gentlemen who calibrated it thought perhaps this was due to a hardware defect,. After reading the forum here, I am convinced it’s the HDMI handshake issue some of you have discussed.

The positive observation-
This thing sounds amazing!!! Eargazmically amazing! Every time I sit down to listen to it, I’m mesmerized.

So, now I’m hoping to ask some newbie questions:

1. On the main screen, pressing the Surround button, brings you to the page for processing options. In my case, I have a 7.1 system, so the options are None, DTS Neo, and Dolby PL Iix. Are these options for 2 channel sources only?

2. When, in 2 channel sources, I select either DTS Neo or Dolby PL Iix, I’m getting sound only out of the left and right speakers. Should I be getting sound from my surrounds as well?

3. What is DRC. What do the three options, On, Off, and especially On/True HD Auto do?

4. What about LFE Adjust: the three options DTS+10dB, PCM +0dB, and Dolby +10dB

5. Under Dolby PLIIx, what does Panorama On/Off do?

6. If I change the SPL levels of the speakers in one input, it seems to change them in several inputs?

7. On the main screen, it shows EQ and Output Presets. Can someone explain what exactly these mean?

In advance, thanks!
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post #2081 of 2250 Old 01-21-2015, 11:03 PM
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Originally Posted by dschulz View Post
I've been corrected by Engineering - the DTS speaker re-mapping is disabled when AuroMatic is engaged, so in all cases a 5.1 source will be upmixed to 13.1 (including the back surrounds independently of the side surrounds) by the AuroMatic algorithms.



Correction: will be fixed in the *next* software release.
Dan, that would be applicable also for the LS10, correct?
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post #2082 of 2250 Old 01-22-2015, 07:03 AM
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Originally Posted by davelittle View Post
Hi All

I’m a new owner of the RS20i, and I’m hoping to get some wisdom from some of you experienced members.

First, some observations:
A couple of negatives observations -
1. I suspect the manual was originally written in Ancient Egyptian hieroglyphs, translated by Greek monks, then years later translated to Czech, and then finally English. Some of the clarity may have been lost in translation (LOL). It appears to be several software versions behind as the menus don’t match up. Also, it was written from the perspective of someone setting up there own unit, not so much from the perspective of someone who just wants to use the unit.

2. I also have the issue where there is no volume when firing up the unit. The Datasat gentlemen who calibrated it thought perhaps this was due to a hardware defect,. After reading the forum here, I am convinced it’s the HDMI handshake issue some of you have discussed.

The positive observation-
This thing sounds amazing!!! Eargazmically amazing! Every time I sit down to listen to it, I’m mesmerized.

So, now I’m hoping to ask some newbie questions:

1. On the main screen, pressing the Surround button, brings you to the page for processing options. In my case, I have a 7.1 system, so the options are None, DTS Neo, and Dolby PL Iix. Are these options for 2 channel sources only?

2. When, in 2 channel sources, I select either DTS Neo or Dolby PL Iix, I’m getting sound only out of the left and right speakers. Should I be getting sound from my surrounds as well?

3. What is DRC. What do the three options, On, Off, and especially On/True HD Auto do?

4. What about LFE Adjust: the three options DTS+10dB, PCM +0dB, and Dolby +10dB

5. Under Dolby PLIIx, what does Panorama On/Off do?

6. If I change the SPL levels of the speakers in one input, it seems to change them in several inputs?

7. On the main screen, it shows EQ and Output Presets. Can someone explain what exactly these mean?

In advance, thanks!
Do you have the Auro update?

3. DRC - Dynamic Range Control - keep off - for low volume viewing / listening
4. I keep DTS +!0 - Dolby 0 (I found it is 10 db hot when engaged).

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post #2083 of 2250 Old 01-22-2015, 09:02 AM
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Originally Posted by davelittle View Post
Hi All

I’m a new owner of the RS20i, and I’m hoping to get some wisdom from some of you experienced members.

First, some observations:
A couple of negatives observations -
1. I suspect the manual was originally written in Ancient Egyptian hieroglyphs, translated by Greek monks, then years later translated to Czech, and then finally English. Some of the clarity may have been lost in translation (LOL). It appears to be several software versions behind as the menus don’t match up. Also, it was written from the perspective of someone setting up there own unit, not so much from the perspective of someone who just wants to use the unit.

2. I also have the issue where there is no volume when firing up the unit. The Datasat gentlemen who calibrated it thought perhaps this was due to a hardware defect,. After reading the forum here, I am convinced it’s the HDMI handshake issue some of you have discussed.

The positive observation-
This thing sounds amazing!!! Eargazmically amazing! Every time I sit down to listen to it, I’m mesmerized.

So, now I’m hoping to ask some newbie questions:

1. On the main screen, pressing the Surround button, brings you to the page for processing options. In my case, I have a 7.1 system, so the options are None, DTS Neo, and Dolby PL Iix. Are these options for 2 channel sources only?

2. When, in 2 channel sources, I select either DTS Neo or Dolby PL Iix, I’m getting sound only out of the left and right speakers. Should I be getting sound from my surrounds as well?

3. What is DRC. What do the three options, On, Off, and especially On/True HD Auto do?

4. What about LFE Adjust: the three options DTS+10dB, PCM +0dB, and Dolby +10dB

5. Under Dolby PLIIx, what does Panorama On/Off do?

6. If I change the SPL levels of the speakers in one input, it seems to change them in several inputs?

7. On the main screen, it shows EQ and Output Presets. Can someone explain what exactly these mean?

In advance, thanks!
Congrats on your purchase, good to hear you are enjoying it. I'll try and answer your questions in brief with what I know.

1. PLIIz and Neo:X should work on all input channel quantities from mono and stereo, to 2.1-5.1 tracks, and upmix to use all 8 of your channels. If you want to add front height speakers, both will upmix to these too.

2. This will depend on how the bass management is set up for that input. Go to Output Preset - Bass Management to change the speaker config.

3. Dynamic Range Compression - as Jeff says best left alone unless you have to listen at very low volume.

4. If all speakers are properly calibrated then these should be left as they are since the LFE signals in Dolby and DTS material will be naturally down by 10dB as encoded. If bass is too strong in your room I would adjust via the Audio Levels screen rather than change these settings.

5. This is a processing algorithm that attempts to widen the size of the front soundstage. Set based on personal preference, but I would guess most people leave it off.

6. The audio levels are stored within an EQ profile. So if several inputs use the same EQ profile any adjustment to the levels will affect all inputs using that profile. You can create new profiles (including by copying from an existing one) and have levels and other settings different in each one, then when in the Home screen, tapping on the EQ indicator at the top will allow you to change between EQ profiles on the fly.

7. As mentioned above EQ profiles contain EQ settings, the Output Preset contains things such as bass management and speaker channel routing settings.
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post #2084 of 2250 Old 01-22-2015, 09:23 AM
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...If bass is too strong in your room I would adjust via the Audio Levels screen rather than change these settings....
Why not use the target curve editing? This would afford greater flexibility as regards specific bass frequency range reductions vs. uniform reduction of the entire subwoofer passband.
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post #2085 of 2250 Old 01-22-2015, 09:35 AM
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Why not use the target curve editing? This would afford greater flexibility as regards specific bass frequency range reductions vs. uniform reduction of the entire subwoofer passband.
Agreed but I would assume from what Dave has said, that he does not have access to the Dirac installer kit in order to be able to do that, so a general level adjustment is his only real option.
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post #2086 of 2250 Old 01-22-2015, 10:02 AM
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Agreed but I would assume from what Dave has said, that he does not have access to the Dirac installer kit in order to be able to do that, so a general level adjustment is his only real option.
The target curve can't be adjusted without an installer kit?
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post #2087 of 2250 Old 01-22-2015, 10:37 AM
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The target curve can't be adjusted without an installer kit?
Sadly no, you can only adjust the curve within the Dirac software ofcourse, since that generates the EQ coefficients, and that is only accessible with the USB security key.

Not so much as
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post #2088 of 2250 Old 01-22-2015, 11:06 AM
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Not so much as
Seriously. This is basic functionality, which every user should be taking full advantage of.
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post #2089 of 2250 Old 01-22-2015, 11:34 AM
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Seriously. This is basic functionality, which every user should be taking full advantage of.

I'm surprised by this WRT the Datasat, since the Dirac Live suites on the PC, and even the XMC-1 and MiniDSP implementations of Dirac allow some choice of target curves and at least limited use of multiple pre-sets (although the actual curves are created on the PC software/plug-ins, with the filters generated in the cloud and then downloaded to the actual run-time boxes). Hopefully Dirac 2 will allow some similar functionality.

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post #2090 of 2250 Old 01-22-2015, 11:50 AM
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They likely keep the software away from some tweakers as after they spend a few thousand on a formal calibration, they screw with it and realize they didn't have a back up, the sound is not great any more and they are at square one!

For me, I had a good calibration and I just turn it on and go! No interest in playing.
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post #2091 of 2250 Old 01-22-2015, 12:09 PM
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They likely keep the software away from some tweakers as after they spend a few thousand on a formal calibration, they screw with it and realize they didn't have a back up, the sound is not great any more and they are at square one!

For me, I had a good calibration and I just turn it on and go! No interest in playing.
Sure, but that's your preference. Developing a personal target curve may take days or weeks - well beyond the time required for even the best pro calibration. And anyone who can't use the target curve edit feature and then save their experiments to a new pre-set must be a seriously challenged individual.
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post #2092 of 2250 Old 01-22-2015, 01:26 PM
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Picking mine up tomorrow. Won't have it calibrated until next week or the week after. Until then anyone have any "special" settings I could do out of the box to maximize its potential until Dirac is done? Really excited.


My room is ATMOS ready and I have been using an Integra 80.6 and Marantz 7009 with my configuration. I know I will have to wait a little bit for the update. Until then I guess I will use Height sound...

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post #2093 of 2250 Old 01-22-2015, 04:48 PM
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Sure, but that's your preference. Developing a personal target curve may take days or weeks - well beyond the time required for even the best pro calibration. And anyone who can't use the target curve edit feature and then save their experiments to a new pre-set must be a seriously challenged individual.
I agree, but that's where your calibrator / installer should be able to help. Most people won't know HOW to adjust the target curve to get what they want, they'll only be able to say "I want less rumble, I want more punch and oh the high frequencies are a bit sharp".


People spending $20k on a RS20i should spend the additional money to get the unit calibrated professionally. I think that is a good business decision by Datasat. It is not a retail unit where a consumer picks up the box, takes it home and then runs an automatic calibration. There are a lot of things that need to be setup for best sound quality in any home theater and 99.9% of people are not capable of doing them to the same level as a professional. That does not mean the enthusiast customer should be excluded from the process rather the enthusiast can work together with a knowledgeable calibrator to get the sound they want.


There's no reason why during a calibration the calibrator could not set up a few target curves - a baseline one and then a few more with some variations. A knowledgeable calibrator should be able to get 95% of the way there in one sitting. It is very important to independently measure the system with something like REW to properly set the target curve up. That will provide insight into the power response of the system which will strongly vary depending on what kind of directivity speaker you are using. Whatever remaining tweaks can be done easily either onsite or remotely since the RS20i can be updated over the network.

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post #2094 of 2250 Old 01-22-2015, 04:49 PM
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Picking mine up tomorrow. Won't have it calibrated until next week or the week after. Until then anyone have any "special" settings I could do out of the box to maximize its potential until Dirac is done? Really excited.


My room is ATMOS ready and I have been using an Integra 80.6 and Marantz 7009 with my configuration. I know I will have to wait a little bit for the update. Until then I guess I will use Height sound...
Looking forward to your review Joe - your could try Auro using your Atmos configuration and see how it sounds.
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post #2095 of 2250 Old 01-22-2015, 05:04 PM
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It is very important to independently measure the system with something like REW to properly set the target curve up. That will provide insight into the power response of the system which will strongly vary depending on what kind of directivity speaker you are using.
I believe there is a lot more to this statement than meets the eye. Dirac takes some nine measurements for each speaker and does some sophisticated averaging to determine the correction curve and final result.

How can we use a program like REW that takes only one measurement per speaker and compare it to Dirac?
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post #2096 of 2250 Old 01-22-2015, 08:52 PM
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I believe there is a lot more to this statement than meets the eye. Dirac takes some nine measurements for each speaker and does some sophisticated averaging to determine the correction curve and final result.

How can we use a program like REW that takes only one measurement per speaker and compare it to Dirac?
Magic?


No seriously, you can use REW or other similar programs to understand the power response of the speaker and therefore judge what the Dirac target curve should look like in terms of the shape of the low and high frequencies. REW curves are not directly comparable with what Dirac shows on screen but the shape of the curve is (in my opinion).


The standard Dirac target curve should always be modified for best results. Why? Because different speakers have different power responses. A wide dispersion cone / dome is very different to a controlled directivity horn. The wide dispersion speaker puts much more energy out into the late arriving field.

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post #2097 of 2250 Old 01-22-2015, 10:25 PM
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I always use the JBL synthesis one curve with the rolloff after 16k, then i tweak the bass for some extra chutzpah +-45hz , give it a little air in the midrange, bring the center channel out of the screen a foot or so in time delay, and call it a day. I have done this with really bad sets of cinema speakers and the dynaudios, the effect is always excellent the better the speaker....the better of course.
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post #2098 of 2250 Old 01-23-2015, 09:04 AM
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I agree, but that's where your calibrator / installer should be able to help. Most people won't know HOW to adjust the target curve to get what they want, they'll only be able to say "I want less rumble, I want more punch and oh the high frequencies are a bit sharp". .....
Hi Nyal,

Although I've consistently advocated professional setup of these sophisticated pre-pros (Trinnov/Datasat/etc.) due to complexity and consequent opportunities for trouble, we'll have to disagree where it comes to manipulating target curves. This is a basic function that anyone can and should learn to use it without losing their baseline settings or blowing up their system.

With a little practice, they might even learn to adjust rumble, punch and sharpness without paying for the privilege.

Ken
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post #2099 of 2250 Old 01-23-2015, 10:18 AM
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Hi Nyal,

Although I've consistently advocated professional setup of these sophisticated pre-pros (Trinnov/Datasat/etc.) due to complexity and consequent opportunities for trouble, we'll have to disagree where it comes to manipulating target curves. This is a basic function that anyone can and should learn to use it without losing their baseline settings or blowing up their system.

With a little practice, they might even learn to adjust rumble, punch and sharpness without paying for the privilege.

Ken
Would problem be solved simply by users obtaining "installer kit" that you mentioned? If you were not kidding about the "installer kit," what is it and is it available for end users? Cost?

Regards, Can
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post #2100 of 2250 Old 01-23-2015, 10:35 AM
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Hi Nyal,

Although I've consistently advocated professional setup of these sophisticated pre-pros (Trinnov/Datasat/etc.) due to complexity and consequent opportunities for trouble, we'll have to disagree where it comes to manipulating target curves. This is a basic function that anyone can and should learn to use it without losing their baseline settings or blowing up their system.

With a little practice, they might even learn to adjust rumble, punch and sharpness without paying for the privilege.
I agree 100% with Ken on this. Plus, it takes quite a long time to learn the wily ways of auditory perception. For example, one way to get better bass punch from the subwoofer at 50 Hz is by reducing the obscurity caused by the main speakers >100 Hz. That is not intuitive. And fiddling all day with the sub might not get there.

On top of that, it takes some hours of listening, over different days, to really get the full measure of the system's characteristics of which target curve (spectral balance) plays a significant role. As advised in Contact -- small moves. Then listen carefully. Rinse, repeat.

It's been quite a learning experience have two totally separate processors, with two totally different EQ strategies, driving the very same amps/speakers all just a click of the A/B switch away. I'll bet I could convince people they were in a different room with different speakers if they were blindfolded, the differences are that significant. And it's not just they are different, but one sounds engaging, the other sounds, meh. The meh one is the one without access to the target curve (in this case, AV7702 with XT32). I do know that Dirac starts off with a better result than XT-32, having played with an AP-20 in this room, but I would still want to tweak.
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