Official DataSat RS20i thread. (Setup Tips, Questions,General Info, etc) - Page 73 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2161 of 2532 Old 02-17-2015, 08:30 AM
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Originally Posted by RUR View Post
There's been an industry rumor that DTS has been decoding 22 channels of DTS:X using a Trinnov Altitude for some time now, including CES.
No longer a rumor, since it has been mentioned openly on other parts of this forum.

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post #2162 of 2532 Old 02-17-2015, 08:33 AM
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Thank you, if supported this seems to provide enough flexibility. It looks like the only issue you would need to be careful of is the initial assignment of those speakers that (in some configurations) you would want to have arrayed copies of and those speakers that on one configuration would be an input channel and in another be a copied array.

The speakers that you want to be the input channel that is the source of a copied array would need to be assigned in 1-16. Conversely those that serve dual purpose as a copied array in a second configuration would need to be assigned to channels 17-24.

An example would be the Atmos Top back speakers being used by the Auro 3D configuration to extend the Auro Surround heights back. In this case the Auro SH's would be assigned in 1-16 while the Atmos TB's would be in 17-24. This would preclude the TB's from being the source of an array in any of the configurations.

Is this correct?
Not quite no. The TB could still be the source of an array as they will still be an input channel in an Atmos set-up (1-16). Think of it like this - the output channels can each be physical speakers, the input channels are the independent content 'signals'. The input channels (content signals) are fixed within the limits of the layouts that can be selected within bass management, and will be different depending on which speaker layout is selected (so input channel 16 is VOG for the Auro 13.1 layout, but it might be TBL for an Atmos 9.1.6 layout). But any output channel (physical speaker) can be mapped to an input channel. So you can map all output channels (speakers) to input channel 1 (front left) if you want, but input channel 1 will always be FL.

Your example is a relevant one though as several RS20i owners, including myself, are running 15.1 for Auro with rear surround heights mapped from the Auro side surround height input channel, and intend to use those rear height channels for Atmos.

So running the example, for Auro output channels 13 (SHB-Left) and 14 (SHB-Right) essentially act as array channels, and are mapped to input channels 11 (SH-Left) and 12 (SH-right) - input channels 13 and 14 are left unused. When switching to Atmos I would guess we will assign all four output channels to separate input channels, for example 11 (TM-left), 12 (TM-right), 13 (TB-left), 14 (TB-right), as one example.

This example wouldn't require the expansion card though. An example that uses the expansion card would be the Auro Centre Height and VOG.

So running this example for an Auro layout you might have output channel 15 (VOG speaker) mapped to input channel 15 (VOG), and output channel 16 (centre height speaker) mapped to input channel 16 (Centre height). When you then switch to Atmos you won't want the centre height or VOG speakers playing, so now you turn output channels 15 and 16 off, and then map expansion card output channel 17 (wide 60 degree left speaker) to input channel 15 (60 degree left), and expansion card output channel 18 (wide 60 degree right speaker) to input channel 15 (60 degree right).

Sorry of this isn't very clear - there are so many permutations and combinations possible it becomes difficult to describe in written form. Essentially to summarise:

1. All output channels (1-16 and 17-24 [with expansion card]) will need to be either mapped to one of the 16 input channels (1-16) or switched off (if switching off is possible, I need to check!)
2. The content signal of each input channel is fixed.
3. The content signal of any specific input channel is determined by the specific speaker layout/format selected within bass management. (i.e. 5.1, 7.1, DTS: Neo X, Auro3D 9.1, Auro3D 11.1, Auro3D 13.1 etc etc)
3. Any output channel (physical speaker) can be mapped to any of the 16 input channels such that all speakers mapped to any one input channel will use play the same signal.


Bear in mind with the Atmos examples above I am completely surmising here. Until we see how Datasat actually implement Atmos, and how they go about combining it with Auro, we won't actually know exactly how it will work.

They may have come up with a really smart solution that will auto signal sense and use the correct routing table depending on the input signal, without having to create separate input containers that have to be manually switched to depending on the content being played.
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post #2163 of 2532 Old 02-17-2015, 09:30 AM
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OK, so ISE 2015 is now over, and AFAIK there still has been no official announcement or press release from Datasat on the Atmos/DTS:X upgrade pricing or availability.

There are a couple of quotes from an AVS member who attended ISE, on this thread (thanks to Nick for highlighting these on the UK AVF thread):

Auro/Atmos at ISE Amsterdam 2015






So my key take aways from what Unclejr was told are:

a) At least we have a bit of a timeline, so potentially 'from May' for the Atmos card, potentially Summer for DTS:X via a firmware upgrade.

b) Even Datasat staff don't appear to know how the 8 channel expansion card works?! Last we heard on this was from Dan (if memory serves), confirming that the expansion card could only be used to map from existing channels for use in channel arrays, not as independent channels for the likes of Atmos to provide 24 separate Atmos channels.

The second quote that Unclejr added from the Datasat rep (if correctly quoted) is both confirmative of what we have heard before, in that there is a 16 discrete channel ceiling in the RS20i, but also a very unscrupulous in telling punters that Atmos for the home is limited to 16 channels when it clearly is not (a la Trinnov Altitude which can deliver up to 31.1 Atmos channels in the home market).

I think Datasat need to take their usual belated step forward and inform their customers of precisely what is going to be available with this upgrade path, and crucially how much it is going to cost us?!
one orderind a rs20i today with auro gets atmos upgrade for price of auro upgrade as prorder special from dsusa.

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post #2164 of 2532 Old 02-17-2015, 09:53 AM
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one orderind a rs20i today with auro gets atmos upgrade for price of auro upgrade as prorder special from dsusa.
Any discounts for AURO folks buying Atmos?

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post #2165 of 2532 Old 02-17-2015, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
OK, so ISE 2015 is now over, and AFAIK there still has been no official announcement or press release from Datasat on the Atmos/DTS:X upgrade pricing or availability.

There are a couple of quotes from an AVS member who attended ISE, on this thread (thanks to Nick for highlighting these on the UK AVF thread):

Auro/Atmos at ISE Amsterdam 2015






So my key take aways from what Unclejr was told are:

a) At least we have a bit of a timeline, so potentially 'from May' for the Atmos card, potentially Summer for DTS:X via a firmware upgrade.

b) Even Datasat staff don't appear to know how the 8 channel expansion card works?! Last we heard on this was from Dan (if memory serves), confirming that the expansion card could only be used to map from existing channels for use in channel arrays, not as independent channels for the likes of Atmos to provide 24 separate Atmos channels.

The second quote that Unclejr added from the Datasat rep (if correctly quoted) is both confirmative of what we have heard before, in that there is a 16 discrete channel ceiling in the RS20i, but also a very unscrupulous in telling punters that Atmos for the home is limited to 16 channels when it clearly is not (a la Trinnov Altitude which can deliver up to 31.1 Atmos channels in the home market).

I think Datasat need to take their usual belated step forward and inform their customers of precisely what is going to be available with this upgrade path, and crucially how much it is going to cost us?!
one orderind a rs20i today with auro gets atmos upgrade for price of auro upgrade as prorder special from dsusa.
So he gets Atmos with just paying fur Auro or he has to pay the same amount of money again that he paid for Auro to receive Atmos also?
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post #2166 of 2532 Old 02-17-2015, 11:27 AM
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one orderind a rs20i today with auro gets atmos upgrade for price of auro upgrade as prorder special from dsusa.
Yes have been told there will be an immersive codec one off price... But if they are doing this, As you say Peter, then they have to give all early adopters of auro at full price, as I payed months before receiving the update, for free also.

Else I see most of us buggering off to trinnov once they sort the bugs out. But more likely for me, Theta!
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post #2167 of 2532 Old 02-17-2015, 11:53 AM
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Yes have been told there will be an immersive codec one off price... But if they are doing this, As you say Peter, then they have to give all early adopters of auro at full price, as I payed months before receiving the update, for free also.

Else I see most of us buggering off to trinnov once they sort the bugs out. But more likely for me, Theta!
Absolutely agreed Nick! We paid a huge chunk of cash for Auro, I don't expect to have to pay anything other than the list price for the 3D codec pack, minus what I already paid for Auro!
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post #2168 of 2532 Old 02-17-2015, 12:03 PM
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Absolutely agreed Nick! We paid a huge chunk of cash for Auro, I don't expect to have to pay anything other than the list price for the 3D codec pack, minus what I already paid for Auro!
Indeed, and as the price for the immersive codecs is or was $4000, which is what we paid if you covert to GBP, then I expect we pay no extra at all.

And I'm not really that bothered about atmos. DTSX has my attention.

And I think 16 channels is just fine for me. Could run 7.1 plus wides. AURO heights but not above wides and VOG. Leaving two channels for subs... Or could go one channel for subs and add another ceiling speaker... If the DTS renderer is really as powerful as hoped, within DSP architectures, then adding another VOG behind or in front my work well.
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post #2169 of 2532 Old 02-17-2015, 12:05 PM
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Actually, I think I'd use that extra channel for centre height as I'm ghosting that right now.
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post #2170 of 2532 Old 02-17-2015, 01:33 PM
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Not quite no. The TB could still be the source of an array as they will still be an input channel in an Atmos set-up (1-16). Think of it like this - the output channels can each be physical speakers, the input channels are the independent content 'signals'. The input channels (content signals) are fixed within the limits of the layouts that can be selected within bass management, and will be different depending on which speaker layout is selected (so input channel 16 is VOG for the Auro 13.1 layout, but it might be TBL for an Atmos 9.1.6 layout). But any output channel (physical speaker) can be mapped to an input channel. So you can map all output channels (speakers) to input channel 1 (front left) if you want, but input channel 1 will always be FL.

Your example is a relevant one though as several RS20i owners, including myself, are running 15.1 for Auro with rear surround heights mapped from the Auro side surround height input channel, and intend to use those rear height channels for Atmos.

So running the example, for Auro output channels 13 (SHB-Left) and 14 (SHB-Right) essentially act as array channels, and are mapped to input channels 11 (SH-Left) and 12 (SH-right) - input channels 13 and 14 are left unused. When switching to Atmos I would guess we will assign all four output channels to separate input channels, for example 11 (TM-left), 12 (TM-right), 13 (TB-left), 14 (TB-right), as one example.

This example wouldn't require the expansion card though. An example that uses the expansion card would be the Auro Centre Height and VOG.

So running this example for an Auro layout you might have output channel 15 (VOG speaker) mapped to input channel 15 (VOG), and output channel 16 (centre height speaker) mapped to input channel 16 (Centre height). When you then switch to Atmos you won't want the centre height or VOG speakers playing, so now you turn output channels 15 and 16 off, and then map expansion card output channel 17 (wide 60 degree left speaker) to input channel 15 (60 degree left), and expansion card output channel 18 (wide 60 degree right speaker) to input channel 15 (60 degree right).

Sorry of this isn't very clear - there are so many permutations and combinations possible it becomes difficult to describe in written form. Essentially to summarise:

1. All output channels (1-16 and 17-24 [with expansion card]) will need to be either mapped to one of the 16 input channels (1-16) or switched off (if switching off is possible, I need to check!)
2. The content signal of each input channel is fixed.
3. The content signal of any specific input channel is determined by the specific speaker layout/format selected within bass management. (i.e. 5.1, 7.1, DTS: Neo X, Auro3D 9.1, Auro3D 11.1, Auro3D 13.1 etc etc)
3. Any output channel (physical speaker) can be mapped to any of the 16 input channels such that all speakers mapped to any one input channel will use play the same signal.


Bear in mind with the Atmos examples above I am completely surmising here. Until we see how Datasat actually implement Atmos, and how they go about combining it with Auro, we won't actually know exactly how it will work.

They may have come up with a really smart solution that will auto signal sense and use the correct routing table depending on the input signal, without having to create separate input containers that have to be manually switched to depending on the content being played.
Thanks for clarifying, its better than I thought. To get the 16 input channel max out of Atmos (and presumably DTS) I would plan for 20 output channels (including LFE).

Starting with the Auro 13.1 layout I would add 2 Wides, 2 Top Middles, and 2 Top Backs. This would leave 4 open for any DTS specific location that merited an input channel and or additional array speakers.

Both Atmos and DTS would run 9.1.6 with possible 4 additional arrayed speakers. Auro could be arrayed out to 17.1, SH>TB, VOG>TM (to widen overhead)

This would meet my needs, thanks again
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post #2171 of 2532 Old 02-17-2015, 03:45 PM
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My new combo!

All hooked up and ready!
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For my latest Reviews and Stuff google -> Joe Rod Home Theater .Com
Check out my Datasat combo using Auro-3D:
http://hstrial-jrodriguez996.homeste...=1426295399824
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post #2172 of 2532 Old 02-17-2015, 04:27 PM
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DATASAT QUESTION:

I noticed when the DATASAT loses power, when power is restored, the unit power up and stays ON. Is there a command / control for it NOT to power back on when power is lost?
Anyone?
Thanks!

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post #2173 of 2532 Old 02-17-2015, 10:54 PM
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all hooked up and ready!
cool!
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post #2174 of 2532 Old 02-17-2015, 11:59 PM
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All hooked up and ready!
Nice! Hows your back after lifting the amp up there?
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post #2175 of 2532 Old 02-18-2015, 01:08 AM
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Absolutely agreed Nick! We paid a huge chunk of cash for Auro, I don't expect to have to pay anything other than the list price for the 3D codec pack, minus what I already paid for Auro!
+1
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post #2176 of 2532 Old 02-18-2015, 06:26 AM
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FOUND A GREAT 20 AMP SEQUENCER for my QUESTED Amplifiers and 2 Seaton Subwoofer Amplifiers (none of which have trigger inputs):

These are 20 amp sequenced power bars. 2400-S has RS-232 control and 12 VDC, CN-20MP has 12 VDC trigger input. Check with manufacturer and will work with balanced power outlets. These can be daisy-chained together.

Thought I'd pass along as many may have amplifiers without triggers. DATASAT RS-20i has 4 trigger outputs.


For Quested Amplifiers: Furman Contractor 2400-S





For Pair of Seaton Subwoofer Amplifiers (one amplifier is outboard): Furman Contractor CN-20MP

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post #2177 of 2532 Old 02-18-2015, 06:39 AM
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I don't suppose they do one with IR control by any chance do they Jeff?
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post #2178 of 2532 Old 02-18-2015, 06:52 AM
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I don't suppose they do one with IR control by any chance do they Jeff?
I don't believe so but with Rs-232, any remote can control it. I use iRule, so it'd be a snap.

However, just plug trigger output of Datasaat and use your IR remote that controls your Datasat to power on whatever input you like.

Not sure why an IR command would be needed? What are you wanting to do?

Or create a 'button' on the Datasat to power on device my loading the RS-232 command into the Datasat by simply going to Automation and selcting that button.

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post #2179 of 2532 Old 02-18-2015, 07:08 AM
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I don't believe so but with Rs-232, any remote can control it. I use iRule, so it'd be a snap.

However, just plug trigger output of Datasaat and use your IR remote that controls your Datasat to power on whatever input you like.

Not sure why an IR command would be needed? What are you wanting to do?

Or create a 'button' on the Datasat to power on device my loading the RS-232 command into the Datasat by simply going to Automation and selcting that button.
I use a Harmony Ultimate to control everything either by its hard button remote or iPhone/iPad apps - it all works via IR so I just wondered if they used IR as well. I need to be able to use it with the RS20i switched off, so that solution won't work sadly. Its not a major issue, I just need to source an IR controllable power block really.
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post #2180 of 2532 Old 02-18-2015, 07:46 AM
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Yes have been told there will be an immersive codec one off price... But if they are doing this, As you say Peter, then they have to give all early adopters of auro at full price, as I payed months before receiving the update, for free also.

Else I see most of us buggering off to trinnov once they sort the bugs out. But more likely for me, Theta!
Not so fast DJ Nick! I meant to say you do have to pay for the atmos card but in the context of an auro equipped new rs-20i placed before may, you do pay only the same premium for Atmos as with Auro ($4k?). op ed 8k$ total

I wouldn't go blackmailing DATASAT by jumping to the competition's arms just yet, like Hunter S. Thompson's attorney I advice you not to go on such bridge burning crusade, lest you have to come back crying like a baby all prodigal, girly and contrite.

There is one thing that Dirac's Mathias Albrecht expalined to me that datasat is foolish not to have a Paragraph on their website explain. When you run dirac live (it lists all found problems like so many other systems) what is unique that it is done in a prioritized fashion hierarchical addressing of the problems and deciding on which one to act one first; this is an ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE ELEMENT by hierarchically prioritizing the problems list and idividually addressing one problem before going on to the next until processor runs out of dsp, this AI algorithm developed at Swedish University in Upssala (OT one ex girlfriend o/m Lotta studied there) where NO HUMAN INTERVENTION IS NEEDED to get the calibration 95% of the way,is the key to Dirac's success popularity and one Datasat should be honking the $h!t out of it's Own Horn for....
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post #2181 of 2532 Old 02-18-2015, 08:19 AM
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Not so fast DJ Nick! I meant to say you do have to pay for the atmos card but in the context of an auro equipped new rs-20i placed before may, you do pay only the same premium for Atmos as with Auro ($4k?).
What are you suggesting here Peter, that if a customer has purchased an RS20i and paid $4k for Auro, they will then be charged another $4k for Atmos?

My understanding (right or wrongly) was that $4k would be the price for the "3D Audio Pack" so Auro and Atmos (and possibly DTS:X when available) all included in that charge.

If that is the case, and a current RS20i customer has been charged $4k for just Auro already, there should only be a small nominal (if any, actually) charge for the Atmos card.

Really, it is not unreasonable for those customers that paid for Auro early on and supported Datasat's development of the codec, to hope to have their loyalty and support rewarded with a FOC Atmos upgrade.
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post #2182 of 2532 Old 02-18-2015, 08:25 AM
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In the future the best technical minds from each camps should compare publicly how their dsps's address calibration not only for when it has to be the very best AUDIOPHILE like many Trinnov afficinados swear they have achieved, and I believe theirs can be technically tweaked the very best, but from a repetitive success rate of implementations (with the lions share of no excuses successes at shows in sheer musicality, in actual home theaters and in cinemas where Datasats scores successes in the thousands, this underscores this company is not one to thumb ones nose at.

I am equipment agnostic and think Datasat should be rushing to lever their good name into producing a modular architecture to go 24-36-48 channels with off board higher end dacs like the PAGU-PAGU. If you haven't noticed we are in the middle of an Immersive audio revolution when those enthusiasts first hear what can be achieved with larger speaker counts I predict no one knows where the scalabilty ceiling will be (but me) Im speaking channel quantity-wise and quality wise (front end back end)both. Get off your butts Datasat, BUILD IT and they will come, at that point I will be the first one to vociferously request that previous rs-20i get a decent trade in. D

So let the probing comparisons begin at some point...

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post #2183 of 2532 Old 02-18-2015, 08:33 AM
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I use a Harmony Ultimate to control everything either by its hard button remote or iPhone/iPad apps - it all works via IR so I just wondered if they used IR as well. I need to be able to use it with the RS20i switched off, so that solution won't work sadly. Its not a major issue, I just need to source an IR controllable power block really.
No problem. Buy the smart hub and you're done!

http://www.engadget.com/2013/07/05/l...rt-hub-review/

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post #2184 of 2532 Old 02-18-2015, 08:45 AM
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What are you suggesting here Peter, that if a customer has purchased an RS20i and paid $4k for Auro, they will then be charged another $4k for Atmos?

My understanding (right or wrongly) was that $4k would be the price for the "3D Audio Pack" so Auro and Atmos (and possibly DTS:X when available) all included in that charge.

If that is the case, and a current RS20i customer has been charged $4k for just Auro already, there should only be a small nominal (if any, actually) charge for the Atmos card.

Really, it is not unreasonable for those customers that paid for Auro early on and supported Datasat's development of the codec, to hope to have their loyalty and support rewarded with a FOC Atmos upgrade.
I find it an absolute steal that I have a NEW ATMOS and DTSX enavable hardware card available to me for 4 grand list on preorder of a new AURO rs-20i. Another insider info I leaked for your collective benefit. op ed 8k$ total!!

What? you want them to build complete high end card hardware for free? Dolby is a license HOG too....

IMO You are being unreasonable, you should be more appreciative of what you have. Just because the highest end pc-based system can do it all in software, you cannot simply expect the development of discrete architecture hardware (perhaps with the potential for better performance-jury out until then) to be a xmas in July gift to you.

Heads Up DS: How to handle the Dtsx software upgrade? That DATASAT Im not going to intercede on your behalf there, yes there I could see these guys getting riled up a la Frankenstein town peasants mob scene.

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post #2185 of 2532 Old 02-18-2015, 08:49 AM
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No problem. Buy the smart hub and you're done!

http://www.engadget.com/2013/07/05/l...rt-hub-review/
The Ultimate comes with it, but it still only has IR outputs, no 12v or RS232 outputs. Its not a big issue anyway, its only to turn my star ceiling on and off!
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post #2186 of 2532 Old 02-18-2015, 09:01 AM
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I find it an absolute steal that I have a NEW ATMOS and DTSX enavable hardware card available to me for 4 grand list on preorder of a new AURO rs-20i. Another insider info I leaked for your collective benefit.

What? you want them to build complete high end card hardware for free? Dolby is a license HOG too....

IMO You are being unreasonable, you should be more appreciative of what you have. Just because the highest end pc-based system can do it all in software, you cannot simply expect the development of discrete architecture hardware (perhaps with the potential for better performance-jury out until then) to be a xmas in July gift to you.

Heads Up DS: How to handle the Dtsx software upgrade? That DATASAT Im not going to interceed for you on that one, yes there I could see you guys getting riled up a la Frankenstein townspeople mob.
With respect Peter I think you've been dealing with stratospheric mullion dollar system for too long if you think $8k is reasonable for the implementation of two audio codecs that are available on $2k AVR's and less

The overall cost was not my point anyway, it was about treating existing customer equitably. So for customers that have already paid for Auro they should not be charged the same fee for just Atmos, as new customer will be charged for the entire 3D codec pack if that includes both Auro and Atmos, they should only have to pay the incremental amount. If you're saying that Auro and Atmos are going to be charged for independently (at $4k each), then that's separate to the point I was making, and brings about its own issues.
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post #2187 of 2532 Old 02-18-2015, 09:09 AM
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So that means dts:x is included in the upgrade or will it be another $4k. I spoke to a british datasat dealer back in December and I was told that the Atmos upgrade won't be for free but more or less just covering the hardware costs and by far kess then the Auro upgrade! Let's wait for definite figures on cost both ways off the Atlantic!
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post #2188 of 2532 Old 02-18-2015, 09:22 AM
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So that means dts:x is included in the upgrade or will it be another $4k. I spoke to a british datasat dealer back in December and I was told that the Atmos upgrade won't be for free but more or less just covering the hardware costs and by far kess then the Auro upgrade! Let's wait for definite figures on cost both ways off the Atlantic!
I have been told very similar Ingo which is why I am so surprised by Peter being told that Atmos alone will be $4k, on top of $4k for Auro, plus possibly another fee ($4k) for DTS:X. Seems unlikely to me, by hey, lets wait and see!
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post #2189 of 2532 Old 02-18-2015, 09:29 AM
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I have been told very similar Ingo which is why I am so surprised by Peter being told that Atmos alone will be $4k, on top of $4k for Auro, plus possibly another fee ($4k) for DTS:X. Seems unlikely to me, by hey, lets wait and see!
Maybe I get charged more in the US... There you go again with the 4k dtsx too, Did not state that!

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post #2190 of 2532 Old 02-18-2015, 09:36 AM
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Maybe I get charged more in the US... There you go again with the *, Did not state that!
Sorry Peter, I'm not having a go at you, in fact I'm not having a go at anyone, I'm just trying to clarify what the costs are likely to be on this.

Lets just clarify then. What exactly have you been quoted by Datasat. $4k for Auro plus another $4k for Atmos. Is that correct? If so, does the Atmos fee include a free upgrade for DTS:X or is that likely to be chargable also?
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