Official DataSat RS20i thread. (Setup Tips, Questions,General Info, etc) - Page 81 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2401 of 2426 Old 05-05-2015, 05:20 AM
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Fully understand the scepticism and I am not advocating it as the best way, simply that it sounds good to me. I expect I have adjusted to this approach and may have a go at removing the additional delay to check whether it is better.

Hopefully if Carl is about he can chime in.
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post #2402 of 2426 Old 05-05-2015, 07:39 AM
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I thought that sort of delay was used in something like prologic when upmixing stereo to surround (so you send a decorrelated delayed copy of the LR to each surround channel).
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post #2403 of 2426 Old 05-05-2015, 08:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post
I thought that sort of delay was used in something like prologic when upmixing stereo to surround (so you send a decorrelated delayed copy of the LR to each surround channel).
Pro Logic matrix decoding couldn't prevent dialogue from leaking into the surrounds, so delaying the surrounds invoked the precedence effect (hearing the dialogue from the centre channel made your brain ignore the leakage from the surrounds a few milliseconds later).

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post #2404 of 2426 Old 05-05-2015, 12:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
I must admit, I'm struggling to understand the 20ms surround delay approach. Don't get me wrong, I'm happy to give it a try, but surely in a properly calibrated room with a single seat, all speaker should be calibrated such that a impulse test tone reaches the listening position at the same time from all speakers.

I understand the point that in a commercial cinema with such a huge amount of seats, and the necessity to calibrate for all seats, or at least for a very wide sweet spot, and prevent rear speaker information reaching the rear most seats before the front speaker information, thus resulting in a sizable delay of the arrival of rear channel information when sitting in other seats. But why perpetuate that inaccuracy in the home where the goal is surely to exceed the reproduction quality that can be achieved in the commercial cinema?

I'm not arguing against it here, I'm just trying to understand the concept - I may well have missed something?
I just did it and applied 20ms to all channel delays except LCR and Subs. I do find the result quite pleasing. I don't have much space to the side and back and have the feeling now of a much bigger room towards the back. It sonehow increased the back soundstage.
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post #2405 of 2426 Old 05-05-2015, 01:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
I must admit, I'm struggling to understand the 20ms surround delay approach. Don't get me wrong, I'm happy to give it a try, but surely in a properly calibrated room with a single seat, all speaker should be calibrated such that a impulse test tone reaches the listening position at the same time from all speakers.
I am triple-checking with Datasat engineering, but I think this is an error in the manual, based on someone's misunderstanding of an old DTS theatrical fix to an unexpected problem. The short version is: cinema processors (for commercial movie theaters) had adjustable delay for the mono (and later, stereo) surround channels, for the same reasons that we do today for home theatre - to time align the surround arrays. You needed a surround delay for the whole array so that you could adjust based on the size of the room.

When DTS launched in the 1990s, by far the most common system configuration was to go analog out of the DTS player into the analog inputs on the cinema processor. It was discovered that many cinema processors did not apply their configured surround delay to the analog inputs, which really muddied things up - audiences were hearing the surround channels early. So very early on in the company history a 20ms delay was added to the surrounds upon disc encoding, 20ms having been calculated to be the average delay needed in an average sized auditorium.

It sounds to me as though in a game of telephone this got translated into "surround channels should always be delayed 20ms", which makes no sense to me. Hopefully Carl can weigh in with his take, though.
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post #2406 of 2426 Old 05-05-2015, 07:22 PM
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I rechecked Carl's advice to me and I misrepresented that advice (apologies to all, particularly Carl - this is my second salutary lesson in 24 hours). The key points of Carl's advice are:
- condition 1, if the 'surround to listening position' is less that the 'mains to listening position then set the surround levels to -3dB relative to the mains (ie 82dB) and add 23ms delay to the surround channels


- condition 2, if the 'surround to listening position is equal to or greater than the 'mains to listening position' then set them equal to the mains without adding delay.


Carl's intent is an attempt to recreate the 'acoustic room scale' of a commercial theatre.














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post #2407 of 2426 Old 05-05-2015, 08:40 PM
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post #2408 of 2426 Old 05-05-2015, 08:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stephenbr View Post
I
- condition 1, if the 'surround to listening position' is less that the 'mains to listening position then set the surround levels to -3dB relative to the mains (ie 82dB) and add 23ms delay to the surround channels

So I should lower the output level by 3db? Would that not result in lower surround information in total? I do understand the 20ms (or 23ms) and after applying them having a more spacious backstage but lowering surrounds would just result in a less audible sonic backstage or am I getting sonething wrong here?

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post #2409 of 2426 Old 05-06-2015, 08:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stephenbr View Post
Carl's intent is an attempt to recreate the 'acoustic room scale' of a commercial theatre.
Shouldn't the intent be to recreate the environment in the soundtrack rather than the acoustics of a commercial theatre? Do you want to hear Lawrence in an open desert or what that sounds like when being reproduced in a large room?

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post #2410 of 2426 Old 05-11-2015, 01:04 PM
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Hi all!
I noob here at the forum but doing pro AV for years.
First would like to thank you guys for all the info that you collected here!!
Big respect. I learned a lot, way more than in factory training
I am just about to finish my dreams room that including:
RS20i
3 RA7300
7 Wisdom LS8i as LCR, side and rear
4 Wisdom LS4i Tops
4 Wisdom S90i subs.
Room is tiny and perfectly treated.
Will love to share the results and hear some feedbacks and tips!
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post #2411 of 2426 Old 05-13-2015, 01:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zArtur View Post
Hi all!
I noob here at the forum but doing pro AV for years.
First would like to thank you guys for all the info that you collected here!!
Big respect. I learned a lot, way more than in factory training
I am just about to finish my dreams room that including:
RS20i
3 RA7300
7 Wisdom LS8i as LCR, side and rear
4 Wisdom LS4i Tops
4 Wisdom S90i subs.
Room is tiny and perfectly treated.
Will love to share the results and hear some feedbacks and tips!
Don't forget the pics when you get the chance.
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post #2412 of 2426 Old 05-21-2015, 04:48 PM
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Anyone else get the chance to try American Sniper yet? Amazing ear candy!

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post #2413 of 2426 Old 05-22-2015, 01:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trans_lux View Post
I have been plagued by no audio at start-up for some time.
My unit is from early this year.
I've tried different configurations all with similar results.

I will try the workaround next time I'm home.
Has this worked for anyone else?
Is this something you can do via VNC?

TL
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Yes. When we have guests. I have to a lot extra time to get things up and going. I've been embarrassed a number of times if my guests fill up the room before I can fire it up.

I'm with you. This needs to be resolved to 100% reliability. Like have had with all my previous SSPs. Glad they're on it.
Hi

My dealer was around yesterday and installed new versions of the DATASAT software v1.03.04 and also fro the HDMI card. Seems to have solved the problem. I will test further over the weekend and report back.
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post #2414 of 2426 Old 05-22-2015, 02:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yapota View Post
Hi

My dealer was around yesterday and installed new versions of the DATASAT software v1.03.04 and also fro the HDMI card. Seems to have solved the problem. I will test further over the weekend and report back.
Datasat website still has V1.03.03 as latest software. Be interesting to know what .04 brings to the table.
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post #2415 of 2426 Old 05-22-2015, 04:07 AM
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Datasat website still has V1.03.03 as latest software. Be interesting to know what .04 brings to the table.
Hi

This version was supplied to my dealer by Datasat engineers after they had looked at the log files that I had provided and various other diagnostic data, so this release may specifically target the HDMI handshake issues. I am sure they will release it out soon.
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post #2416 of 2426 Old 05-22-2015, 04:10 AM
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Hi

My dealer was around yesterday and installed new versions of the DATASAT software v1.03.04 and also fro the HDMI card. Seems to have solved the problem. I will test further over the weekend and report back.
Awesome. What is the HDMI version?

Thanks for the update!

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post #2417 of 2426 Old 05-22-2015, 08:28 AM
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post #2418 of 2426 Old 05-22-2015, 12:03 PM
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Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post
Yes but....It will be more interesting to hear Auromatic vs native Atmos in August... August will be here in no time.
Peter, any thoughts or info on the DTS:X codec on the Datasat platform?

I've read some of your recent posts where you suggest that other than the front end, the remainder of the speakers should be focused on the mlp to get that 'personal invasion' of audio you describe due to there only being 16 channels.

In the smaller rooms, especially for us guys in the UK, I think we may well get away with16 channels, but it'd be nice to have the luxury of a few more

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post #2419 of 2426 Old 05-22-2015, 12:35 PM
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Hi Billy Bob,



I promise that the first of you that tries tight top setup will be blown away with the atmos gravity Houston Houston scene. Unlike the countless of thousands of hapless malinformatii will, without any doubt. Capisce?

I am closer to the cinema layout than the home atmos layout. The sides should be one foot over your ears not at the BW801 head height that the home atmos prescribes.

I believe that it will work in 16, but only if t speaker layout is exactly just outside of mlp, in Taker's Aegir above mlp is 6 seats 3 in each row, in a more intimate albionic setup it would work even better if one positioned the heights in line with the front subs
to make sure it would be the most aggressive personal space inavasion integer, then regarding surrounds they have to be sited synchronous with the ceiling speakers so therefore the 2 sides (and you need two sides to ferry pans back and forth with some degree of spatial dynamic precision) and the rears lined up with the ceilings for overhead back and forth panning backwards reach extension.



I am very confident in intimate settings this will work. Awfully absent will be the first heights and the first and second widths, but prewire for more if you are redecorating because knowing this people datasat will likely have attractive trade in options.... At which time we will know more about speakers types and coverage.

Ideally coverage should be only to positions where people will sit or stand and no more further than that.


With ribbon lens morphing technologies I see this happening.





You will definetely see more bespoke directivity discussions in future.This is a crucial element of immersive sondscaping to come....



Ciao BillyBob!
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Hi Billy Bob,



I promise that the first of you that tries tight top setup will be blown away with the atmos gravity Houston Houston scene. Unlike the countless of thousands of hapless malinformatii will, without any doubt. Capisce?

I am closer to the cinema layout than the home atmos layout. The sides should be one foot over your ears not at the BW801 head height that the home atmos prescribes.

I believe that it will work in 16, but only if t speaker layout is exactly just outside of mlp, in Taker's Aegir above mlp is 6 seats 3 in each row, in a more intimate albionic setup it would work even better if one positioned the heights in line with the front subs
to make sure it would be the most aggressive personal space inavasion integer, then regarding surrounds they have to be sited synchronous with the ceiling speakers so therefore the 2 sides (and you need two sides to ferry pans back and forth with some degree of spatial dynamic precision) and the rears lined up with the ceilings for overhead back and forth panning backwards reach extension.



I am very confident in intimate settings this will work. Awfully absent will be the first heights and the first and second widths, but prewire for more if you are redecorating because knowing this people datasat will likely have attractive trade in options.... At which time we will know more about speakers types and coverage.

Ideally coverage should be only to positions where people will sit or stand and no more further than that.


With ribbon lens morphing technologies I see this happening.





You will definetely see more bespoke directivity discussions in future.This is a crucial element of immersive sondscaping to come....



Ciao BillyBob!
Thanks Peter, interesting and informative as per usual. When the upgrade for the Rs20i is ready, I'll make an attempt at some 'personal space invasion' audio

21inch hitachi
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post #2421 of 2426 Old Yesterday, 09:21 AM
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Anyone here have any regrets about the Datasat R20 or is it as awesome as everyone has claimed it to be?

I know it sounds great and looks great.....but can we communicate with it? If not it is useless:)
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post #2422 of 2426 Old Yesterday, 11:56 AM
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Anyone here have any regrets about the Datasat R20 or is it as awesome as everyone has claimed it to be?
No regrets here..the quality of audio is stupendous with Dirac engaged. The only potential downside is if you require in excess of 16 channels, then you would need to look elsewhere at this point.

Saying that, I cannot see Datasat resting on there laurels with a 16 channel unit when their is a competitor with a 32 channel unit. That's my opinion on the situation.

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post #2423 of 2426 Old Yesterday, 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr. Integration View Post
Anyone here have any regrets about the Datasat R20 or is it as awesome as everyone has claimed it to be?
I do have an LS10 which is according to several statements (incl. widescreen Review) excl. the DIRAC very much the same as the RS20. For DIRAC I do have a MiniDSP88A (I am in thr proccess of getting a second one to have DIRAC for all channels). Eben though I haven't done a 1:1 comparison I don't think difference will be major. Definitly worth a look at as it is the 'budget' solution next to the RS20i
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post #2424 of 2426 Old Yesterday, 11:40 PM
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Datasat/Wisdom room HTE acoustics

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kain View Post
Don't forget the pics when you get the chance.
Here you go.
Room is epic.
RS20i amazing unit, but have some HDMI and serial control glitches.
I still missing door, seats and Sony VW-1100ES.
Room is in Budapest Hungary and the place will be ready by July.
Huge thanks to guys from Wisdom, Luke and Jerome, Maurizio Conti and all HTE Italy team.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zArtur View Post
Here you go.
Room is epic.
RS20i amazing unit, but have some HDMI and serial control glitches.
I still missing door, seats and Sony VW-1100ES.
Room is in Budapest Hungary and the place will be ready by July.
Huge thanks to guys from Wisdom, Luke and Jerome, Maurizio Conti and all HTE Italy team.
Looks so great zArthur!
What are the room and screen dimensions?
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post #2426 of 2426 Unread Today, 05:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zArtur View Post
Here you go.
Room is epic.
RS20i amazing unit, but have some HDMI and serial control glitches.
I still missing door, seats and Sony VW-1100ES.
Room is in Budapest Hungary and the place will be ready by July.
Huge thanks to guys from Wisdom, Luke and Jerome, Maurizio Conti and all HTE Italy team.
Awesome!

Looks like the room will turn out great.

By the way, I use to live in Budapest between 1997-2000. Beautiful place.
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