Official DataSat RS20i thread. (Setup Tips, Questions,General Info, etc) - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 1941 Old 12-11-2012, 05:00 AM - Thread Starter
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About time we start a RS20i owners therad. Dan Francis did a great job in the Datasat RS20i BETA test and comparison with ADA Rhapsody/Trinnov TEQ-12!!!! and I am sure we are all appreciative of the effort that was involved to get that comparison setup and completed. Thank you Dan.

This thread is to be used for owners and potential owners to ask questions about the RS20i. I am not one to set rules, but questions about setup , features and EQ calibration is certainly welcome. Also , anyone who has become familiar with the unit please don't hesitate to post any tips for users or potential users.

A general overview of the unit can be had at DataSat

A PDF brochure of the RS20i.

Datasat and Auro Technologies agreement take luxury home cinema audio to new 'heights' Auro-3D®

Auro 3D Official Homepage

User Manual







.

The below link is for those who want to use REW to measure their room.
REW for use with HDMI and 8 channal setup guide.
PDF setup Guide


DATASAT EXPANSION CARD UPDATE.
Quote:Originally Posted by Carl_Huff 


DATASAT EXPANSION CARD
We are pleased to announce the Datasat Expansion Card, which will unlock a whole host of new features on the RS20i audio processor. At the heart of this new card are two additional powerful DSPs to bring the total DSP power to 8 chips for the most powerful processing available.
The Datasat Expansion Card includes the following:
NEW DECODERS
The following new decoders are in addition to the existing Dolby Digital, DTS and DTS HDMA decoders.
Dolby Technologies
• Dolby Digital Plus NEW
• Dolby Pro Logic IIz NEW
• Dolby Pro Logic IIx NEW
• Dolby TrueHD NEW
DTS Technologies
• DTS Neo:X NEW
NEW SPEAKER CONFIGURATIONS UP TO 11.1
DTS Neo:X supports front wide and front height speakers (up to 11.1). Dolby TrueHD supports front height speakers (up to 9.1). The Datasat Expansion Card increases the number of speaker configurations to 11 plus phantom centre.
RS20i Speaker Configurations will include:
2.0 (L, R)
3.0 (L, R, C)
4.0 (L, R, Ls, Rs)
5.1 (L, R, C, Ls, Rs, Sw)
7.1h (5.1 + L height, R height) NEW
7.1w (5.1 + L wide, R wide) NEW
9.1hw (5.1 + L height, R height, L wide, R wide) NEW
7.1 (L, R, C, Ls, Rs, Lbs, Rbs, Sw)
9.1h (7.1 + L height, R height) NEW
9.1w (7.1 + L wide, R wide) NEW
11.1hw (7.1 + L height, R height, L wide, R wide) NEW
DTS NEO:X NEW
DTS NEO:X can upmix to any of the speaker configurations. NEW
DTS NEO:X can be applied to all decoded streams: 2/6/8ch PCM, DTS 2.0/5.1/7.1 and Dolby 2.0/5.1/7.1. NEW
Dolby Pro Logic IIx/z NEW
Dolby Pro Logic IIx works for 7.1. NEW
Dolby Pro Logic IIz can be configured for 9.1h adding the front height. NEW
Dirac Live
An additional 4 channels of Dirac will be added (16 in total). NEW
_____________
Best Regards,
Carl Huff





If I am missing anything fell free to say so.
The main objective of the thread is to get the collective information on the RS20i in one thread so as well can really benefit from this unit great features.

My build thread

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post #2 of 1941 Old 12-11-2012, 03:20 PM
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Good idea. I am just getting to grips with mine.

I am having slight issue with it applying dts neo6 to a dd2.0 stream. Be it from my TiVo box or my oppo blu ray player.

I have seen a screen capture showing that is can indeed apply neo6 to dd2.0. So I'm a bit puzzled.

I am also having problems in getting 2 channel analogue audio copied to rear speakers. I can set it so 2 channel is playing thru screen speakers and sides, have selected to copy side to rears but I get nothing. However this works fine with a 5.1 signal. It copies that to the rears no problems.

I found the manual not a lot of help re setup.

What I ended up doing was setting up like my old Ada crm4.

I measured all the speakers distances from my listening seat. Found the biggest distance, which is my mains fronts and subs. All at 15ft. So these all get set to 0 in the delays. this is my reference speaker distance.

I then subtract all other speakers distances from the physical reference distance. Ie, 15ft - 5ft for side = 10ft. So 10 is the number I input for the side delays. And so forth. I did try adding 20ms delay to the side and rears as suggested in the manual but I found that to sound weird. ESP when playing music thru multichannel. Nasty echoy effect.

I find it a pleasure to use and navigate. The GUI is very intuative. And the vnc clients work a charm.

Has any one found a system that will enable me to use a hard key remote control so I can adjust volume and select inputs without having to wrestle my iPad from family or navigating from current iPad apps to vnc client.
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post #3 of 1941 Old 12-11-2012, 05:32 PM
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Dave, how do you like the menus vs the AP20? I'm curious since you now have experience with both.

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post #4 of 1941 Old 12-11-2012, 09:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djnickuk View Post

Good idea. I am just getting to grips with mine.
I am having slight issue with it applying dts neo6 to a dd2.0 stream. Be it from my TiVo box or my oppo blu ray player.
I have seen a screen capture showing that is can indeed apply neo6 to dd2.0. So I'm a bit puzzled.
I am also having problems in getting 2 channel analogue audio copied to rear speakers. I can set it so 2 channel is playing thru screen speakers and sides, have selected to copy side to rears but I get nothing. However this works fine with a 5.1 signal. It copies that to the rears no problems.
I found the manual not a lot of help re setup.
What I ended up doing was setting up like my old Ada crm4.
I measured all the speakers distances from my listening seat. Found the biggest distance, which is my mains fronts and subs. All at 15ft. So these all get set to 0 in the delays. this is my reference speaker distance.
I then subtract all other speakers distances from the physical reference distance. Ie, 15ft - 5ft for side = 10ft. So 10 is the number I input for the side delays. And so forth. I did try adding 20ms delay to the side and rears as suggested in the manual but I found that to sound weird. ESP when playing music thru multichannel. Nasty echoy effect.
I find it a pleasure to use and navigate. The GUI is very intuative. And the vnc clients work a charm.
Has any one found a system that will enable me to use a hard key remote control so I can adjust volume and select inputs without having to wrestle my iPad from family or navigating from current iPad apps to vnc client.
I am still in setup phase on my machine, but I can't wrap my head around the copping channels. Is it so you get the same signal as the original channels? If that is correct then should you not be making new channels so as it will be matrixing in 7.1 format and not 5.1? At present you would be getting the same signal from the forward surround as the back surround?
Are running PCM on your Oppo? I also had troubles with my Oppo player. I ended up having to use the second HDMI port on the Oppo and that fixed all my problems. I have no idea why the HDMI 1 port won't and still don't know why.

What page in the manual how info on the delays? I must have missed that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanFrancis View Post

Dave, how do you like the menus vs the AP20? I'm curious since you now have experience with both.
Dan

I find the RS20i to be a bit easier to understand, but it really is basically the same. I do like the way the volume is presented on the RS20i however.

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post #5 of 1941 Old 12-11-2012, 11:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djnickuk View Post

I am having slight issue with it applying dts neo6 to a dd2.0 stream. Be it from my TiVo box or my oppo blu ray player. I have seen a screen capture showing that is can indeed apply neo6 to dd2.0. So I'm a bit puzzled.
Why? Neo:6 is a general purpose 2-ch surround processor, so it should be able to work with any 2-ch source, same as Pro Logic II which can work with any 2-ch DTS, Dolby, or PCM signal.
Quote:
I did try adding 20ms delay to the side and rears as suggested in the manual but I found that to sound weird. ESP when playing music thru multichannel. Nasty echoy effect.
The goal of delays is to achieve coincident arrivals. There is no justification for adding even more delays since any algorithm that benefits from such delays is embedded already, like PLII Movie which adds 10 ms to the surrounds.

However, in a multi-seat room, you might want two setups. I have a "me" speaker setting where all the delays are set for coincident arrival at the MLP, and equal speaker loudness. Then I have a "group" setting that adds 3 ms to Ls/Rs and 8 ms to Lb/Rb, and tweaks the levels by adding 2 dB to center and dropping all the surrounds by 3 dB. Works really well for each situation.

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post #6 of 1941 Old 12-12-2012, 07:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

However, in a multi-seat room, you might want two setups. I have a "me" speaker setting where all the delays are set for coincident arrival at the MLP, and equal speaker loudness. Then I have a "group" setting that adds 3 ms to Ls/Rs and 8 ms to Lb/Rb, and tweaks the levels by adding 2 dB to center and dropping all the surrounds by 3 dB. Works really well for each situation.

Hi Roger,

That sounds exactly like an idea that's been floating around in my head. Where in your signal chain do you make these adjustments ? I guess it's in your processor and that you have memories to allow simple switching ? Don't think my DHC-9.9 can do this. confused.gif Maybe an iRule macro could do it ? Looks like a bit of work is required !

Cheers,
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post #7 of 1941 Old 12-12-2012, 07:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Peter, I will have to check on the time delays if they are able to be saved, maybe Carl can share a bit of insight on this. But the RS20i has the ability to have dozens of different EQ settings saved , so you can choose what EQ you want with particular content. And it is a simple as just selecting which curve you want and off you go.

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post #8 of 1941 Old 12-12-2012, 09:08 PM
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Can't you make those adjustments with Dirac? I thought that in the last screen before the filters are generated and uploaded (in the actual Dirac software, not that loader that's a window), you could add delay and change channel trim.

Otherwise I'd imagine with the RS20i you setup each separately and save them in different presets (solo vs family). I'll have to fiddle with mine when I get a chance (that would be sometime next week at this point).

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post #9 of 1941 Old 12-12-2012, 09:29 PM
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Unfortunately the last screen on Dirac isn't functional. So you can set different EQs (and I assume weight a listening position with more measurements) but don't think you can set different delays etc - if you can by using different presets I would like to know how.
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Stephenbr is correct. The last screen of the Dirac Live configuration software does nothing. We never made it work correctly, at least not to my satisfaction.. Last I knew entering delays or running the automated calculation did nothing. Dirac will handle time issues within a channel but you must navigate to the channel delay screen on the RS20i and manually enter 'channel to channel' delays. Roger Dressler's suggestion of using multiple delay & gain collections is an interesting one. I think that I will explore use of that myself.
_____________
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post #11 of 1941 Old 12-12-2012, 11:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stephenbr View Post

Unfortunately the last screen on Dirac isn't functional. So you can set different EQs (and I assume weight a listening position with more measurements) but don't think you can set different delays etc - if you can by using different presets I would like to know how.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanFrancis View Post

Can't you make those adjustments with Dirac? I thought that in the last screen before the filters are generated and uploaded (in the actual Dirac software, not that loader that's a window), you could add delay and change channel trim.
Otherwise I'd imagine with the RS20i you setup each separately and save them in different presets (solo vs family). I'll have to fiddle with mine when I get a chance (that would be sometime next week at this point).
Dan
And here I thought I was doing something wrong all this time.

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post #12 of 1941 Old 12-13-2012, 12:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter M View Post

Hi Roger,
That sounds exactly like an idea that's been floating around in my head. Where in your signal chain do you make these adjustments ? I guess it's in your processor and that you have memories to allow simple switching ? Don't think my DHC-9.9 can do this. confused.gif Maybe an iRule macro could do it ? Looks like a bit of work is required !
Yes, the processor (SSP-800) can store up to 6 "Configs" which is where one defines speaker complement, crossovers, speaker delays, and channel gains. These can be mapped to a specific source, or just roll through the active ones via a button on the remote.

Aside from the "me" and "group" settings I use the same method to set the subwoofer gain and hi-pass filter options for different music vs. movie situations. Even though my small room has 4 ULS-15 subs, subsonic energy can be too much for them and for me, so pulling in a 20 Hz HP is then the best option. For a "no frills" processor these features have really been handy.

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Can anyone help figure out how to copy the sub channels. I have 4 subs up the front of the room and I want have it so the base management recognizes all 4 subs, two subs to the left and two to the right.

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post #14 of 1941 Old 12-13-2012, 04:25 AM
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Bass management screen: select mono; that makes channel 4 the sub-output, or select LFron/RFront for subwoofer configuration an the channels are 4= L , 9=R. If you select 4 subs, you're forced to use front and rear woofers for left and right sides each. I have in the past attempted to select MONO and then assign various channels (output) to channel 4 (input) which should make them sub-outs...not sure if it was successful though, and that was the prototype.

One of my suggestions for the production unit was to allow the user to have as many as 4 mono subwoofer outputs as selections in the Bass Management screen- I didn't get that one.

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post #15 of 1941 Old 12-13-2012, 04:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanFrancis View Post

Bass management screen: select mono; that makes channel 4 the sub-output, or select LFron/RFront for subwoofer configuration an the channels are 4= L , 9=R. If you select 4 subs, you're forced to use front and rear woofers for left and right sides each. I have in the past attempted to select MONO and then assign various channels (output) to channel 4 (input) which should make them sub-outs...not sure if it was successful though, and that was the prototype.
One of my suggestions for the production unit was to allow the user to have as many as 4 mono subwoofer outputs as selections in the Bass Management screen- I didn't get that one.
Dan
Carl said that you can copy channels. So esentially what you can do is copy the mono channel 4 times and and it will get base evenly through each sub channel.

These are two quotes from Carl, I hope he does not mind me posting.

"You can do what you want to do by setting the RS20i to 2 subs and then copy those two inputs to your 'other two' subs."

"If you navigate to the screen that is described in the active crossover section of the manual you will see how to copy any input to any output channel. If you copy channels 4 and 9 to your two other subs you will have all four channels getting their mix from the front loudspeakers and not the surrounds."


The problem is, I am not the most savy with these things, in other words I need someone to hold my hand and take me through it step by step. I tried reading and re-reading the manual with no success.

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post #16 of 1941 Old 12-13-2012, 04:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Dan , I figured it out.

I will post a pic as to how the channels need to be setup.


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post #17 of 1941 Old 12-13-2012, 05:28 AM
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That's how I have mine set, Dave. Nice and simple. But I first have them set individually to apply their own eqs.

And datasat have found a bug with dd2.0 stream from hdmi. So that should be fixed shortly.
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post #18 of 1941 Old 12-13-2012, 05:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djnickuk View Post

That's how I have mine set, Dave. Nice and simple. But I first have them set individually to apply their own eqs.
And datasat have found a bug with dd2.0 stream from hdmi. So that should be fixed shortly.

Good thinking, I would have never have considered that. Thanks.

What is the bug?

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post #19 of 1941 Old 12-13-2012, 07:35 AM - Thread Starter
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OK, a question for those who did their own setup.

Has anyone used RTA software with this unit? How did you go about setting it up?

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I am not sure of the bug details. All I know is that thru conversing with Carl and him to the datasat team they isolated an hdmi dd2.0 bug.

I have not used the inbuilt rta. I find it easier to use REW rather than flicking between rs20i menus.

My main issue with the inbuilt rta is that you can not provide a mic cal file for the unit so as to offset the frequency response of the mic you are using.
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post #21 of 1941 Old 12-13-2012, 08:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djnickuk View Post

I am not sure of the bug details. All I know is that thru conversing with Carl and him to the datasat team they isolated an hdmi dd2.0 bug.
I have not used the inbuilt rta. I find it easier to use REW rather than flicking between rs20i menus.
My main issue with the inbuilt rta is that you can not provide a mic cal file for the unit so as to offset the frequency response of the mic you are using.

I too am trying to use an external RTA. How did you connect using REW?(I mean what connection did you use) Can you play a sweep to a group of channels? Like for instance , run a sweep for all the sub channels?

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post #22 of 1941 Old 12-13-2012, 08:58 AM
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Well I don't have my RS20i yet but hope to in the next few weeks... My question is about near-term planning though - I will be using using either an OPPO 95 or 105 as the main source for bluray, and am wondering if there is a major benefit to going with analog audio into the datasat... I remember reading somewhere that HDMI limits audio bandwith to 48kHz no matter what is on the disc, but analog signals are passed unmolested.

Is that the case? Will the RS20i care prefer one signal type over another? In other words, is there a practical upside to using analog over HDMI? I've researched this on and off, and just haven't gotten a clear consensus yet, especially with a high-end piece like the Datasat

By the way Dave, thanks for taking the initiative to start this thread!
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post #23 of 1941 Old 12-13-2012, 09:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djnickuk View Post

That's how I have mine set, Dave. Nice and simple. But I first have them set individually to apply their own eqs.
And datasat have found a bug with dd2.0 stream from hdmi. So that should be fixed shortly.

Not quite sure what you mean by how you apply individual eqs to copied speakers.

I thought when you copy a speaker you also copy its eq settings. If you copy speaker 4 to speakers 10,11, and 12, the latter three will all have the eq (and delays, levels, etc) of speaker 1.
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post #24 of 1941 Old 12-13-2012, 11:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djnickuk View Post

I am not sure of the bug details. All I know is that thru conversing with Carl and him to the datasat team they isolated an hdmi dd2.0 bug.
I have not used the inbuilt rta. I find it easier to use REW rather than flicking between rs20i menus.
My main issue with the inbuilt rta is that you can not provide a mic cal file for the unit so as to offset the frequency response of the mic you are using.

The RTA in the RS20i is only 1/3 octave graphic on a 1"x5" screen. I do not think you could observe the effects of mic cal file with this resolution and display. You could always look at the mic cal file and see what the corrections are. With a good mic they are generally small from my experience.
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post #25 of 1941 Old 12-13-2012, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by JapanDave View Post

I too am trying to use an external RTA. How did you connect using REW?(I mean what connection did you use) Can you play a sweep to a group of channels? Like for instance , run a sweep for all the sub channels?

Dave, I think you are confusing some terms. A Real TIme Analyzer measures the signal that is coming out of the speaker. The sound/source can be anything, music, test tone, sweep, etc. For an REW RTA you just select RTA within REW (mic connected to computer which is running REW). The test tone would be the pink noise signal from the RS20i, which you can output in any combination of speakers. The REW RTA has much more resolution than the RS20i RTA plus it can be saved etc. The RS20i and REW are not connected to each other. The RS20i provides the test signal, REW RTA measures it.

To do a sweep from REW to the RS20i is more complicated. You would have to connect the output from REW to a DB25 (for multichannel) input. You would then physicially move the cable from channel to to channel. To do 8 channels simultaneously you would have to split the REW signal into 8 cables.
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post #26 of 1941 Old 12-13-2012, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by schlitzie View Post

Well I don't have my RS20i yet but hope to in the next few weeks... My question is about near-term planning though - I will be using using either an OPPO 95 or 105 as the main source for bluray, and am wondering if there is a major benefit to going with analog audio into the datasat... I remember reading somewhere that HDMI limits audio bandwith to 48kHz no matter what is on the disc, but analog signals are passed unmolested.
Is that the case? Will the RS20i care prefer one signal type over another? In other words, is there a practical upside to using analog over HDMI? I've researched this on and off, and just haven't gotten a clear consensus yet, especially with a high-end piece like the Datasat
By the way Dave, thanks for taking the initiative to start this thread!

HDMI can go up to 192kHz. It is only if you try to output a digital signal from the RS20i that it will be downsampled to 48kHz.
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post #27 of 1941 Old 12-13-2012, 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by GGA View Post

To do a sweep from REW to the RS20i is more complicated. You would have to connect the output from REW to a DB25 (for multichannel) input. You would then physicially move the cable from channel to to channel. To do 8 channels simultaneously you would have to split the REW signal into 8 cables.

Wrong

You simply need to connect to a single channel of the analogue inputs then using the output routing table you can quickly send the input to output or combination of outputs. No additional cables or changes of connector required. Very simple solution.

I am sure that you can do a similar trick in the EQ page but this way is easiest for me.
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post #28 of 1941 Old 12-13-2012, 12:41 PM
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Dave. I don't think that sub layout is necessarily what you were after. Dan explained exactly how to get a mono feed to multiple subs and this is how we prefer to configure them for movie playback.

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post #29 of 1941 Old 12-13-2012, 12:53 PM
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As Neil says, I just run a single output from my tascam us122mkii to left in on stereo 1 input. I can then send this to all channels via stereo routing. Except I can not send to my rears as, previously mentioned, I can not get my rears to fire on a stereo input. Most odd.

But for using rta I just use the internal tones of the rs20i and use rta on REW to measure and then I adjust accordingly.

In audio levels you have the option of either running pink noise thru a single channel or if you tick multichannel pink noise you can then select each channel you wish to play pink noise from simultaniously.

And re sub calibration. I listen to music using the subs as left and right so I calibrate them seperately. Then for movies I sum them to mono and run another eq for that.

It is a shame that one can not sum 2 sub channels and keep their independent eqs. Although I believe Dirac filters will allow this. But Neil will know for sure on that matter.
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post #30 of 1941 Old 12-13-2012, 12:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GGA View Post

HDMI can go up to 192kHz. It is only if you try to output a digital signal from the RS20i that it will be downsampled to 48kHz.

OK, so then is it even worth the acrobatics to run analog audio into the Datasat then? There seems to be a lot of hype for analog audio to be the darling of high end audio
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