Trinnov MC set up guide with SSP and JVB modded Oppo! - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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Old 08-16-2013, 09:34 AM
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I would hope to have as much experience as anyone with PRO Audio (PHC), Dirac and some Trinnov (although it has been a while).

The best way to think about the DSP in the PMA amps is that it is the best adjusted crossover you ever heard. The guys go to great lengths to get things voiced the way they want and over the course of many measurement sessions on behalf of our dealers, I have gained enormous respect for the absolute consistency in performance across the range. I use them as a training example since they really do act as close to an ideal speaker as anything I have worked with and all of the good theory about boundary gain and so is clear to see and quick to correct.

I have always found the cross over to be perfectly implemented and since there are additional benefits such as soft limiters built in to the DSP I cant think why I would bypass them.

When working with the Dirac system the key thing is to make sure that you are not artificially boosting the HF which is the mistake I am fairly sure that most make when setting up the RS20i (see that particular thread). Close mic checking is your friend to ensure that it all stays flat as designed.

When working with Trinnov I always found it a bear to handle the channel routing with multiple surrounds and such. I suspect this is a lot easier when using the higher channel count units but I have never personally used higher than TEQ (although we have a system with dual units from when they were first released). Ignoring that, there is no doubt that the coherence of the sound field is impressive and I would be interested to test with a 9.1 or even 13.1 soundfield coupled to proper decoding.

So to sum up, PRO are my favourite cinema speakers by a mile. I love the guys and I love how easy it is to work with the product. Even the small units like the 8s give astonishing dynamics but my personal goal in life is to have a system with 2215s and the 24" subs installed in my own home. It is hard to make them sound bad and using the PMA alone results in a clear and effortless sound.

I personally get better results when using the RS20i and Dirac but this is by no means an automated process IMO. God bless the Room EQ Wizard is all I'll say. Very easy when working with large channel counts.

Trinnov is a great product and Curt has helped me a few times but for me it is an accessory to other decoding processes rather than a stand alone solution if you are looking for the best overall result. I truly think that the combination of an RS20i front end (or even better and AP24 with Auro 3D) going digital in to a large Trinnov would be an outstanding solution but not for the faint hearted. In that scenario I would probably let the Trinnov do EQ as well for ease but would still have to get the normal tools out to check everything!

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Old 08-21-2013, 06:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ceenhad View Post

I would hope to have as much experience as anyone with PRO Audio (PHC), Dirac and some Trinnov (although it has been a while).

The best way to think about the DSP in the PMA amps is that it is the best adjusted crossover you ever heard. The guys go to great lengths to get things voiced the way they want and over the course of many measurement sessions on behalf of our dealers, I have gained enormous respect for the absolute consistency in performance across the range. I use them as a training example since they really do act as close to an ideal speaker as anything I have worked with and all of the good theory about boundary gain and so is clear to see and quick to correct.

I have always found the cross over to be perfectly implemented and since there are additional benefits such as soft limiters built in to the DSP I cant think why I would bypass them.

When working with the Dirac system the key thing is to make sure that you are not artificially boosting the HF which is the mistake I am fairly sure that most make when setting up the RS20i (see that particular thread). Close mic checking is your friend to ensure that it all stays flat as designed.

When working with Trinnov I always found it a bear to handle the channel routing with multiple surrounds and such. I suspect this is a lot easier when using the higher channel count units but I have never personally used higher than TEQ (although we have a system with dual units from when they were first released). Ignoring that, there is no doubt that the coherence of the sound field is impressive and I would be interested to test with a 9.1 or even 13.1 sound field coupled to proper decoding.

So to sum up, PRO are my favourite cinema speakers by a mile. I love the guys and I love how easy it is to work with the product. Even the small units like the 8s give astonishing dynamics but my personal goal in life is to have a system with 2215s and the 24" subs installed in my own home. It is hard to make them sound bad and using the PMA alone results in a clear and effortless sound.

I personally get better results when using the RS20i and Dirac but this is by no means an automated process IMO. God bless the Room EQ Wizard is all I'll say. Very easy when working with large channel counts.

Trinnov is a great product and Curt has helped me a few times but for me it is an accessory to other decoding processes rather than a stand alone solution if you are looking for the best overall result. I truly think that the combination of an RS20i front end (or even better and AP24 with Auro 3D) going digital in to a large Trinnov would be an outstanding solution but not for the faint hearted. In that scenario I would probably let the Trinnov do EQ as well for ease but would still have to get the normal tools out to check everything!

Thanks!

The PHC speakers are far more sophisticated and polished versions of my own (relatively crude) pro audio compression driver speakers. I think they will be a perfect upgrade for me. I am ready to move on from my first gen QSC DSPs and really bring things up to state of the art in my room. THey are near the top of my list right now. I'd like to get this project completed in the next couple of months.

I have weighed the RS-20i but budget constraints and taking on two very sophisticated pieces of equipment at once (and Trinnov MC), would likely ruin my fun. I am going to go Trinnov and, if need be and after I have squeaked every last bit of juice out of the Trinnov piece I am still unsatisfied, then I may consider the RS-20i... And truthfully, the RS-20i thread with the myriad of set up issues and the still evolving firmware, remind me of a cause I am not ready to crusade for. In my younger days, yes but as I get older, I find my time more valuable.

Considering the amplification, I am not sure if the DSPs in the PHC amplifiers can be completely bypassed? Perhaps in some channels, I would like to bypass them fully and let the Trinnov do such duties. THe goal here is as much of a full digital path as possible. IN the side fronts, 2 sets of sides and rears, I amy employ the PHC amp digital filters / crossover, etc but maybe not up front. I am speccing out SCR-15s for LCRs and SCR-12s for side fronts, and SCRS-12ai for two 2 sets of sides and pair of rears. So far, I am planning on an 11.2 set up but am getting some consultation as to whether this is feasible given the physical constraints of my room. I"ve talked to Curt H and I really appreciate his expertise and complete understanding of all things dynamic HT and Trinnov.

I may consider other amplifiers for my LCRs or all speakers (e.g. ATI, Bryston or others that may be recommended). Each speaker is bi-amped so I'll require quite a bit of amplification. If the DSPs built into the PHC amps cannot be bypassed, I will likely amplify them with one of the aforementioned brands.

Can these amps' DSPs be bypassed (and avoid the extra A/D and D/A)? Thanks!

My Home Theater of the Month- Le Petit Trianon

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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Old 08-21-2013, 06:54 PM
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Originally Posted by thebland View Post

Can these amps' DSPs be bypassed (and avoid the extra A/D and D/A)? Thanks!

Just about all Class D ("Digital") amps, which the PHC amps are, require converting the analog signal to a digital, usually a PWM, signal. Given that, you don't really "bypass digital processing" in the PHC amps even if you do use the Trinnov crossover functionality.

If you go digital out in the Trinnov then you'll have to apply volume to it in the Trinnov, and then lose headroom as your "digital in amp" sees a less than full volume signal, and that would likely be a bigger sonic degradation than using the DSP's in the PHC amps. (I tried that at one point using a Meridian upstream to the digital input stages of a DEQX crossover.)

IME, you're overly worried about sonic degradation from the D/A, and not giving enough credit to getting a "highly tweaked and customized dsp based crossover" in return.

My next upgrade will be to get exceptional analog amps for each channel, and go analog out from the Trinnov and use the Trinnov for all crossover duties. Even then, I will spend a lot of time and money tweaking the Trinnov crossover paramaters to get them just right -- I'd bet I consume two or three full days of outside calibrator expert time to pull that off. Until then, I'm analog out from the Trinnov to the PHC amps, and it's very impressive.

As an aside, you'll get great performance out of that speaker mix!
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Old 08-21-2013, 07:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Got it. Thanks for the explanation. THis has been quite a learning process for me. What type of cabling are you using to get form the Trinnov to the PHC amplifiers? Do THe PHC amps have a digital input? THe website has no rear pictures of the amplifier.

Thanks! FOr my room, I think I should be in good shape with those speakers. I can tell you love your own set up!

Thanks!

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There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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Old 08-21-2013, 08:08 PM
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have you actually heard them yet, Jeff?

is the search over?

should I not continue with what we discussed a week ago?

let me know, it's cool if you've found what you're looking for- let me know if there's anything I can do to help.

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Old 08-22-2013, 05:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

What type of cabling are you using to get form the Trinnov to the PHC amplifiers? Do THe PHC amps have a digital input?

There is no digital input on the amps.

I use Verastarr cables from the Trinnov to the amps:
http://verastarr.com/nemesis-xlr/

I also use Verastarr power cords
http://verastarr.com/grand-illusion/
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Old 08-22-2013, 08:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by DanFrancis View Post

have you actually heard them yet, Jeff?

is the search over?

should I not continue with what we discussed a week ago?

let me know, it's cool if you've found what you're looking for- let me know if there's anything I can do to help.

Dan

No. Not over but I'm still considering the others we discussed but after listening to an interview with Paul Hales, I came to a revelation that my own system is a more 'primitive' ancestor to what his offerings are.

My thinking on this, and I like all the input I get here, is whether to use the PHC amps or go with another non-DSP amplifier. I could do a stack of top end ATI amps with equivalent power for quite a bit less or the Brystons for that matter - if after planning the system, the PHC amps make sense, I'll add some (or all) to the speaker arrangement.

Thanks Dan - talk soon.

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Old 08-22-2013, 08:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brucemck2 View Post

There is no digital input on the amps.

I use Verastarr cables from the Trinnov to the amps:
http://verastarr.com/nemesis-xlr/

I also use Verastarr power cords
http://verastarr.com/grand-illusion/

Wow! Those look like pieces of art. Thanks for the link and input!

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There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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Old 08-22-2013, 03:13 PM
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Just to throw my 2 cents in... I can't recommend the Seaton Catalysts enough. You have the same A/D D/A issues you mention above, but also the same "highly tweaked and customized dsp based crossover". I love them, and I came from Martin Logan CLX speakers. In the same league for clarity, speed and musicality, and in a completely other world for dynamics, fun factor, etc. Plus, like you said, Mark is terrific! The man created a baffle wall specific DSP for me and put it into the design from my set of Catalysts forward!
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Old 08-22-2013, 10:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brucemck2 View Post

There is no digital input on the amps.

I use Verastarr cables from the Trinnov to the amps:
http://verastarr.com/nemesis-xlr/

I also use Verastarr power cords
http://verastarr.com/grand-illusion/

$2000 for a 6 for power cord. And that the low end model. Jump up to the "limited" version and you get to pay $4800 for the same 6 feet!

And I have serious issues with his claims period. His talk on skin effect is quite contrary to established science - not that it matters on a power cord in the first place.

LOL

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Old 08-22-2013, 10:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Glimmie View Post

$2000 for a 6 for power cord. And that the low end model. Jump up to the "limited" version and you get to pay $4800 for the same 6 feet!

And I have serious issues with his claims period. His talk on skin effect is quite contrary to established science - not that it matters on a power cord in the first place.

LOL

For powercords, just stick with Shunyata Zitrons.
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Old 08-22-2013, 10:46 PM
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For powercords, just stick with Shunyata Zitrons.

Yes I'm sure they are much more reasonably priced!

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Old 08-23-2013, 07:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Just to throw my 2 cents in... I can't recommend the Seaton Catalysts enough. You have the same A/D D/A issues you mention above, but also the same "highly tweaked and customized dsp based crossover". I love them, and I came from Martin Logan CLX speakers. In the same league for clarity, speed and musicality, and in a completely other world for dynamics, fun factor, etc. Plus, like you said, Mark is terrific! The man created a baffle wall specific DSP for me and put it into the design from my set of Catalysts forward!

I am considering Mark's speakers. I haven't talked to him about specifics yet but I want an 11.2 system. I may replace (or add to) my subs as well. This is the year to finally make a move on my audio side of my system. I'm really excited. I originally discarded Mark's speakers but since they are powered (do not want to add electrical in 11 spots) but it appears the Catalysts and sparks will be passive.

Mark installed my current speakers. We go way back and I know he knows my tastes.

Thanks for the input.

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Old 08-23-2013, 10:30 AM
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$2000 for a 6 for power cord. And that the low end model. Jump up to the "limited" version and you get to pay $4800 for the same 6 feet!

Actual cash prices are considerably less than advertised, particularly in the quantities I use in my system.

I've had good, and not so good, experiences with a number of after market power cords (and interconnects).
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Old 08-23-2013, 12:11 PM
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Actual cash prices are considerably less than advertised, particularly in the quantities I use in my system.

I've had good, and not so good, experiences with a number of after market power cords (and interconnects).

I'm curious, what problems have you had with other power cords? Most high priced power cords do no harm, the question is what do they improve in actual systems and not what the hype says.

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Old 08-23-2013, 01:01 PM
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I haven't really had any problems, even with $2 power cords.

I have on multiple occasions swapped different power cords into the system on various components. I often notice pretty large differences (maybe placebo, but even if so it's my placebo and I believe it.) I've not liked many very expensive cords.,or, found they made no real difference. The cords I've ended up with yield a "larger sound" with more "sound density".
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Old 08-23-2013, 01:42 PM
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I'm curious, what problems have you had with other power cords? Most high priced power cords do no harm, the question is what do they improve in actual systems and not what the hype says.

I used to be a huge PC skeptic, and held out trying high grade cords. Once I tried the PS Audio AC-12, I was absolutely shocked about how much difference this cord made. I tried a few more and found the Shunyata Zitron Phyton's the be right in my price performance sweetspot. Am I deluding myself? Conceivable, but not likely. There definitely tweaks I cannot vouch for, but these PCs really make a big difference.
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Old 08-23-2013, 03:34 PM
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I used to be a huge PC skeptic, and held out trying high grade cords. Once I tried the PS Audio AC-12, I was absolutely shocked about how much difference this cord made. I tried a few more and found the Shunyata Zitron Phyton's the be right in my price performance sweetspot. Am I deluding myself? Conceivable, but not likely. There definitely tweaks I cannot vouch for, but these PCs really make a big difference.

But what was the difference?

And I am assuming you didn't replace an 18ga power cord on a high power amp with a 12ga power cord because that would make a difference.

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Old 08-23-2013, 04:25 PM
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But what was the difference?

And I am assuming you didn't replace an 18ga power cord on a high power amp with a 12ga power cord because that would make a difference.

The audiophile vernacular always makes me cringe, so let me just sum it up as "I got better sound".
Quote:
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And I am assuming you didn't replace an 18ga power cord on a high power amp with a 12ga power cord because that would make a difference.

Definitely not. In fact, my poweramps are not yet Shunyata connected, because of some spending fatigue I have been suffering from lately. I use them on my preamp, and power conditioners. Once I get around to selling my synergistic research hologram D (that does nothing for me), I'll get shunyata on my DAC as well. I still have some PS Audio AC-12s on other components.
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Old 10-07-2013, 07:29 AM - Thread Starter
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I have narrowed my speakers down to either Seatons, PHC, Quested or Procella.

Any thoughts?

Curt Hoyt recommended very wide dispersion to cover as many seats in my theater as possible but all of the above give 80 degrees to 90 degrees of horizontal dispersion and will all do very high SPLs. He thought at least 100 degrees would be ideal but given the constraints of my columns (width), etc these appear to be the best for my application.

I'm still moving towards a 13.1 set up.

Procella: P8 for LCRs and P6 for all else. Horizontal Dispersion: 80 degrees. These are crossed over internally (one pair of inputs).
http://www.procella.citymax.com/loudspeakers.html


Quested: LT-12 or LT-10 for LCRs and LT10 / LT 8 for all else: Horizontal Dispersion: 80 degrees
http://www.quested.com/studio-monitoring-production/data-sheets/LT-Series.pdf


PHC: SCR-12sm (maybe 15sms) for LCRs and SCRS-8ai. 80 degrees Horizontal dispersion
http://www.professionalhomecinema.com/loudspeakers/scrs-12ai/

Seatons: Catalysts for LCRs and Sparks all around.

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Old 10-07-2013, 07:36 AM
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All else being the same: use Mark's speakers- he has the ability to do something bespoke for you, the value is certainly higher than the other brands, and from what I've heard, certainly on-par with the other brands.
As an added bonus- you have your amps that you can repurpose for more subs (passive).

Dan

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Old 10-07-2013, 08:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi Dan,

I like Mark's stuff but it is difficult to nail him down. I've talked to him a couple of times. He's very busy.

I said I'd like passive Sparks or the smaller Catalysts for surrounds. I can do Active up front. I know he is redesigning the Sparks but there is no information on them (dimensions).

I can not find information on the dispersion characteristics of the high frequency driver.

Thanks!

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Old 10-07-2013, 11:26 AM
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Have you tried calling him?

That's what I would do.

PM me if you need his number.

Dan

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Old 10-07-2013, 11:37 AM
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Yep Mark is crazy busy, but his products are unbelievable. He also designed a baffle wall program for the Catalysts for me, and then implemented it all the Catalysts shipped after mine. I cannot say enough good things about his speakers. I change EVERYTHING in my theater constantly and his speakers have given me the first item I have no desire to change at all. So clear and dynamic. They truly feel limitless. I have had Martin Logan CLX , high end B&W, as well as "lower end" Klipsch THX... The Catalysts seem to have the best characteristics of all of them.
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Old 10-07-2013, 01:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

Curt Hoyt recommended very wide dispersion to cover as many seats in my theater as possible but all of the above give 80 degrees to 90 degrees of horizontal dispersion and will all do very high SPLs. He thought at least 100 degrees would be ideal but given the constraints of my columns (width), etc these appear to be the best for my application.

What is actually required for even coverage is controlled directivity, where the response falls in level with angle.

When you toe in such speakers, surrounds as well as L/R, the further distance of a speaker is compensated by being more on axis.

Noah
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Old 10-07-2013, 01:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by DanFrancis View Post

Have you tried calling him?

That's what I would do.

PM me if you need his number.

Dan

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Originally Posted by hifiaudio2 View Post

Yep Mark is crazy busy, but his products are unbelievable. He also designed a baffle wall program for the Catalysts for me, and then implemented it all the Catalysts shipped after mine. I cannot say enough good things about his speakers. I change EVERYTHING in my theater constantly and his speakers have given me the first item I have no desire to change at all. So clear and dynamic. They truly feel limitless. I have had Martin Logan CLX , high end B&W, as well as "lower end" Klipsch THX... The Catalysts seem to have the best characteristics of all of them.

Thanks, Dan. I have Mark's cell and asked for a quote a few weeks ago... But haven't heard back.. He recommended 6 Submersives but I need info on the new Sparks. I can't do active in my columns but that shouldn't be an issue. I am ready to get this project going but it is a slow process.

I know the Catalysts are excellent. I think all speakers are 'can't lose'.

Thanks. I'll try again.

My Home Theater of the Month- Le Petit Trianon

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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Old 10-07-2013, 02:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

What is actually required for even coverage is controlled directivity, where the response falls in level with angle.

When you toe in such speakers, surrounds as well as L/R, the further distance of a speaker is compensated by being more on axis.

Right... and that is the plan for maximal coverage.

Thanks.

My Home Theater of the Month- Le Petit Trianon

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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Old 10-08-2013, 10:14 AM
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Originally Posted by thebland View Post

I have narrowed my speakers down to either Seatons, PHC, Quested or Procella.

Any thoughts?

Curt Hoyt recommended very wide dispersion to cover as many seats in my theater as possible but all of the above give 80 degrees to 90 degrees of horizontal dispersion and will all do very high SPLs. He thought at least 100 degrees would be ideal but given the constraints of my columns (width), etc these appear to be the best for my application.

I'm still moving towards a 13.1 set up.

Procella: P8 for LCRs and P6 for all else. Horizontal Dispersion: 80 degrees. These are crossed over internally (one pair of inputs).
http://www.procella.citymax.com/loudspeakers.html


Quested: LT-12 or LT-10 for LCRs and LT10 / LT 8 for all else: Horizontal Dispersion: 80 degrees
http://www.quested.com/studio-monitoring-production/data-sheets/LT-Series.pdf


PHC: SCR-12sm (maybe 15sms) for LCRs and SCRS-8ai. 80 degrees Horizontal dispersion
http://www.professionalhomecinema.com/loudspeakers/scrs-12ai/

Seatons: Catalysts for LCRs and Sparks all around.

I imagine Curt was talking about 100 degrees for surrounds? Unlikely that you would need 100 degrees up front...

Limited dispersion is the only issue with using constant directivity waveguided or horn loaded speakers for surround duty. Ideally you would look at where your seats are placed relative to surround columns to determine what dispersion characteristics are required.

Acoustic Frontiers: design and creation of high performance listening rooms, home theaters and project studios for discerning audio/video enthusiasts.
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Old 10-08-2013, 11:59 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Nyal Mellor View Post

I imagine Curt was talking about 100 degrees for surrounds? Unlikely that you would need 100 degrees up front...

Limited dispersion is the only issue with using constant directivity waveguided or horn loaded speakers for surround duty. Ideally you would look at where your seats are placed relative to surround columns to determine what dispersion characteristics are required.

Yes... No problems up front with dispersion. Since I have three rows, I need reach to give maximum flexibility to direct sound to as many seats as possible.

We are doing exactly. I used a protractor on a layout of the room and measuring from each column to determine how to place and determine the horizontal spread of each speaker's high freq driver.

My Home Theater of the Month- Le Petit Trianon

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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Old 10-14-2013, 08:35 PM
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Hey mate,

Danley make wide dispersion speakers. Their model number reflects the speakers coverage pattern.

http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/products/

I'm pretty sure they have some that go up to 100 degrees

Very well regarded range of speakers, and several people on this forum use them in home theatre applications. There are several threads in the speaker section

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