Trinnov MC set up guide with SSP and JVB modded Oppo! - Page 6 - AVS Forum
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post #151 of 175 Old 04-21-2014, 10:33 AM
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Hey guys, reading through edorr's 103 thread, I've got a relative newbie question to the Trinnov/hi-end world. Would someone explain to me exactly why the placement of digital to analog conversion before the Trinnov box matters, if you're doing digital correction in the signal path, for an upper mid-range quality HT speaker configuration? Here's why:

I currently have a Denon 4311 with Audyssey XT32. I also use it as an amp, with analog EXT. IN input, from a Sherwood R-972 running DSP Trinnov (and use an Oppo connecting via HDMI to the R-972). My Oppo 103 is the primary source for Trinnov-based correction at the moment, for it's own native content (BluRay, Netflix, etc.) as well as Tivo (HDMI input 1) and Apple TV (HDMI input 2).

I'm looking at moving into the pro Trinnov world, specifically a Magnitude series runtime box, as the next step in our A/V evolution. Having said that, I could see connecting sources to the Magnitude, which doesn't have HDMI inputs, three ways, minimum:
a) Analog pre-out from the Oppo -> Magnitude -> Denon 4311 (with RCA/XLR connectors to and from the Magnitude)
b) Oppo 103 Vanity board to the Magnitude -> DB25 to RCA or XLR to RCA connection to the Denon
c) All sources to the Denon 4311 -> Magnitude -> 7-channel amp(s) TBD, probably NAD or Emotiva

b) is the only one that gives a digital path to feed the Trinnov box. The Denon's DAC I think are AKM4358B with 112 db SNR, and the Oppo 103 has Cirrus Logic CS4382A DAC at 114 db SNR. Both are outputting 24/192 kHz AFAIK. In 20/20 hindsight I've have gotten the 105 with the ESS Sabre DAC, but right now this is where I am.

Given that superior DAC in the pro Trinnov Magnitude, and that there's digital correction taking place in the Trinnov runtime box, to my naïve way of thinking the tradeoff of an additional A/D/A conversion is superceded by the benefit of a SoTA REQ. At least for the quality of speakers I have (a new set of PSB Imagine T2, Imagine Center, Imagine Surrounds, replacing an older DefTech line, as well as equidistant HSU ULS-15, managed by a MiniDSP) in a 5.1/7.1 system. The exact number of channels depends on how I configure the PSB Surrounds, as bipole/dipole (5.1) or as dual channel mono (7.1).

OTOH, there's a fair number of guys on the $20K+ thread that agonize over getting just the right board and esoteric digital connector in place to have as pristine a digital path as possible. But with the level of equipment I have, what am I really giving up by having an analog path to the Trinnov Magnitude? At least in a 8 channel (or less) world...subject to change as developments warrant.

Hope this isn't too trivial....but this seems like a good place to ask.

Stuart

 

Denon 4311 with XT32 and Audyssey Pro

Oppo 93 and 103

Panasonic VT50

Sherwood R-972 with its version of the Trinnov Optimizer

MiniDSP 10x10 HD

PSB Imagine T2, Center, and Surrounds (as of 5/2014); HSU ULS-15 subs (2)

 

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post #152 of 175 Old 04-21-2014, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post

Hey guys, reading through edorr's 103 thread, I've got a relative newbie question to the Trinnov/hi-end world. Would someone explain to me exactly why the placement of digital to analog conversion before the Trinnov box matters, if you're doing digital correction in the signal path, for an upper mid-range quality HT speaker configuration? Here's why:

I currently have a Denon 4311 with Audyssey XT32. I also use it as an amp, with analog EXT. IN input, from a Sherwood R-972 running DSP Trinnov (and use an Oppo connecting via HDMI to the R-972). My Oppo 103 is the primary source for Trinnov-based correction at the moment, for it's own native content (BluRay, Netflix, etc.) as well as Tivo (HDMI input 1) and Apple TV (HDMI input 2).

I'm looking at moving into the pro Trinnov world, specifically a Magnitude series runtime box, as the next step in our A/V evolution. Having said that, I could see connecting sources to the Magnitude, which doesn't have HDMI inputs, three ways, minimum:
a) Analog pre-out from the Oppo -> Magnitude -> Denon 4311 (with RCA/XLR connectors to and from the Magnitude)
b) Oppo 103 Vanity board to the Magnitude -> DB25 to RCA or XLR to RCA connection to the Denon
c) All sources to the Denon 4311 -> Magnitude -> 7-channel amp(s) TBD, probably NAD or Emotiva

b) is the only one that gives a digital path to feed the Trinnov box. The Denon's DAC I think are AKM4358B with 112 db SNR, and the Oppo 103 has Cirrus Logic CS4382A DAC at 114 db SNR. Both are outputting 24/192 kHz AFAIK. In 20/20 hindsight I've have gotten the 105 with the ESS Sabre DAC, but right now this is where I am.

Given that superior DAC in the pro Trinnov Magnitude, and that there's digital correction taking place in the Trinnov runtime box, to my naïve way of thinking the tradeoff of an additional A/D/A conversion is superceded by the benefit of a SoTA REQ. At least for the quality of speakers I have (a new set of PSB Imagine T2, Imagine Center, Imagine Surrounds, replacing an older DefTech line, as well as equidistant HSU ULS-15, managed by a MiniDSP) in a 5.1/7.1 system. The exact number of channels depends on how I configure the PSB Surrounds, as bipole/dipole (5.1) or as dual channel mono (7.1).

OTOH, there's a fair number of guys on the $20K+ thread that agonize over getting just the right board and esoteric digital connector in place to have as pristine a digital path as possible. But with the level of equipment I have, what am I really giving up by having an analog path to the Trinnov Magnitude? At least in a 8 channel (or less) world...subject to change as developments warrant.

Hope this isn't too trivial....but this seems like a good place to ask.

Running your sources into the Denon and then analog into the Trinnov will be of substantially lesser sound quality than using a Modded 103/Vanity as digital input. The Oppo will give you 2 additional HDMI inputs. If you need more, you can put an HDMI switcher before the Oppo. If you are going to spend North of 10K on a "magnitude", keeping the Denon in the chain makes no sense. Get the modded Oppo. If you have the Oppo 103 already, you can get the "103 lite board" for something in the $300 range. A no brainer.

You can temporarily use the Denon as a MCH poweramp, but this will be by far the weakest link in the chain. Get a better poweramp next.
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post #153 of 175 Old 04-21-2014, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by edorr View Post

Running your sources into the Denon and then analog into the Trinnov will be of substantially lesser sound quality than using a Modded 103/Vanity as digital input. The Oppo will give you 2 additional HDMI inputs. If you need more, you can put an HDMI switcher before the Oppo. If you are going to spend North of 10K on a "magnitude", keeping the Denon in the chain makes no sense. Get the modded Oppo. If you have the Oppo 103 already, you can get the "103 lite board" for something in the $300 range. A no brainer.

You can temporarily use the Denon as a MCH poweramp, but this will be by far the weakest link in the chain. Get a better poweramp next.

Kind of what I thought.....IIRC Kal Rubinson used a Marantz 8801 as input into a Trinnov unit, at least for one app with eight analog XLR channels, as part of his Stereophile review of the MC-12, so the thought occurred to me I could do the same thing with RCA->XLR cabling to the Trinnov Magnitude. I was planning on going the Vanity route with the 103, largely due to your work with a 93 board, but just wondering if the quality difference was that pronounced for, say, a BluRay Star Trek: Into Darkness or the likes of DSOTM vs. a lot of DSD SACD music. We're maybe 60/40 music vs. HT, more pop/rock/jazz with some world musicky stuff rather than ear-rattling guitar rock or classical SACD as such.

I already have the 103, so I'm set there. Ultimately I probably would swap out the Denon for a power amp, but more to get high quality sound without distortion if I found I needed to listen at reference than anything else (pending how the T2s work out with the Denon providing the amplification; on the PSB thread, it's kind of a mixed bag about whether PSB Imagine T2s or the Synchrony Ones work out with a higher-end "consumer" AVR vs. a power amp). We live in a condo, so 85 db reference isn't very likely to happen until we move and I can set up a dedicated HT room.

Stuart

 

Denon 4311 with XT32 and Audyssey Pro

Oppo 93 and 103

Panasonic VT50

Sherwood R-972 with its version of the Trinnov Optimizer

MiniDSP 10x10 HD

PSB Imagine T2, Center, and Surrounds (as of 5/2014); HSU ULS-15 subs (2)

 

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post #154 of 175 Old 04-21-2014, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post

Kind of what I thought.....IIRC Kal Rubinson used a Marantz 8801 as input into a Trinnov unit, at least for one app with eight analog XLR channels, as part of his Stereophile review of the MC-12, so the thought occurred to me I could do the same thing with RCA->XLR cabling to the Trinnov Magnitude. I was planning on going the Vanity route with the 103, largely due to your work with a 93 board, but just wondering if the quality difference was that pronounced for, say, a BluRay Star Trek: Into Darkness or the likes of DSOTM vs. a lot of DSD SACD music. We're maybe 60/40 music vs. HT, more pop/rock/jazz with some world musicky stuff rather than ear-rattling guitar rock or classical SACD as such.

Why would you? The Oppo/Vanity works flawlessly and will beat the Denon hands down (on Blu Ray movies as well as music). You can't go wrong spending $300 on the "Vanity Lite" board.
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post #155 of 175 Old 04-21-2014, 03:45 PM
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Originally Posted by edorr View Post


Why would you? The Oppo/Vanity works flawlessly and will beat the Denon hands down (on Blu Ray movies as well as music). You can't go wrong spending $300 on the "Vanity Lite" board.

I agree. I would only use the analog connection if there was no effective digital alternative.


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post #156 of 175 Old 04-21-2014, 04:12 PM
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I agree. I would only use the analog connection if there was no effective digital alternative.

Thanks, Kal. As you can tell, I've had enough enjoyment from the Sherwood R-972/MiniDSP 10x10 HD (the latter doing sub management, and an attempt at some use with REW for the mains post-DSP Trinnov that I ultimately abandoned for reasons outside of this thread) that I decided to cut to the chase, move away from Audyssey XT32 altogether, and save toward a Magnitude 8x8 or 12x12....that's what Curt recommended for me, as a start toward future development paths (when room, technology, and finances permit). Biggest reasons, aside from hearing an MC-12 system on a trip to LA, was the ability to have an integrated solution without the kludgy separate bass management, gain structure, and the flexibility of the pro Unit, plus above all the target curve adjustability and fast calculations to create the filtering. TBH, it makes the approach and issues I'm used to dealing with from an Audyssey world seem...trivial.

Having said that, the principle of having a purer digital path aside, did you do any listening testing for the Stereophile review between your analog XLR inputs from the Marantz vs. the digital mod to your older Oppo DVD-980H? IOW how much difference, and for what kind of material, did you hear analog vs. digital, and where it's clearly superior to have a pure digital path into the Trinnov unit?

I'm not doubting your and edorr's conclusion, just curious moving forward given my setup. The biggest reason is that it's more convenient (not so much for me, but family) to go the Denon route into the Trinnov Magnitude at the moment. Lots of retraining to do otherwise, even with a Harmony remote. And in a 12 channel world (1 being subs), there's also the temptation to pick up a new high quality pre/pro with analog pre-outs (maybe RCA->DB25 cabling) and use it if it can process future object-oriented audio content that the 103 won't support, and Trinnov can work with (hopefully) - i.e. something less expensive than an LS10 or SSP pre/pro, let alone the Altitude, in a 12 channel configuration. If that's not just a technically inferior, but materially inferior route to consider....just thinking ahead. Hope that doesn't sound too naïve.

Stuart

 

Denon 4311 with XT32 and Audyssey Pro

Oppo 93 and 103

Panasonic VT50

Sherwood R-972 with its version of the Trinnov Optimizer

MiniDSP 10x10 HD

PSB Imagine T2, Center, and Surrounds (as of 5/2014); HSU ULS-15 subs (2)

 

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post #157 of 175 Old 04-22-2014, 09:00 AM
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... temptation to pick up a new high quality pre/pro with analog pre-outs (maybe RCA->DB25 cabling) and use it if it can process future object-oriented audio content that the 103 won't support, and Trinnov can work with (hopefully).

You lost me with that. Don't all pre/pros have analog pre-outs by definition? Or did you mean new AVR?

I'm very interested in your journey here as it sounds very similar to the path I want to take
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post #158 of 175 Old 04-22-2014, 09:22 AM
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You lost me with that. Don't all pre/pros have analog pre-outs by definition? Or did you mean new AVR?

I'm very interested in your journey here as it sounds very similar to the path I want to take

Not necessarily a new AVR, just making a point to contrast a usage of a pre/pro with analog pre-outs to the Oppo/Vanity Board approach as your master switcher, if there were a reason due to object-oriented audio support. And yes, all pre/pros have analog RCA and/or XLR pre-outs (at least higher end mass market AVRs still do), but the high-end SoTA pre/pros have other connectors, like the DB25 digital outs on the prospective Storm Audio SSP-16 or the Trinnov Altitude 32.

You've been following a few journeys, artur....mine is a natural evolution from AVRs, with Trinnov as the catalyst to where I go next...

Stuart

 

Denon 4311 with XT32 and Audyssey Pro

Oppo 93 and 103

Panasonic VT50

Sherwood R-972 with its version of the Trinnov Optimizer

MiniDSP 10x10 HD

PSB Imagine T2, Center, and Surrounds (as of 5/2014); HSU ULS-15 subs (2)

 

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post #159 of 175 Old 04-22-2014, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post

.......

I'm not doubting your and edorr's conclusion, just curious moving forward given my setup. The biggest reason is that it's more convenient (not so much for me, but family) to go the Denon route into the Trinnov Magnitude at the moment. Lots of retraining to do otherwise, even with a Harmony remote. And in a 12 channel world (1 being subs), there's also the temptation to pick up a new high quality pre/pro with analog pre-outs (maybe RCA->DB25 cabling) and use it if it can process future object-oriented audio content that the 103 won't support, and Trinnov can work with (hopefully) - i.e. something less expensive than an LS10 or SSP pre/pro, let alone the Altitude, in a 12 channel configuration. If that's not just a technically inferior, but materially inferior route to consider....just thinking ahead. Hope that doesn't sound too naïve.

 

We often make compromises for the sake of ease of use. One could easily setup an analog path parallel to the digital path  that retains the elements such as the Denon for the family to use till they adopt to the new way.  I would suspect that in time they would learn the Trinnov/oppo route, especially as there are ways to control it all through macros. Meanwhile for personal use, you could immediately switch to the direct digital audio route.  I had such a setup here for the same reasons before I removed the processor altogether and later adopted a HTPC/jRiver/ CableTV (Celton board on Verizon Fios) along with the Oppo/Trinnov setup. 

 

3D format sourcing may be the reason one may go analog, but perhaps this may get solved eventually via an HTPC vendor as well- or budget permitting, choosing the Trinnov Altitude with 3D decoding. 


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post #160 of 175 Old 04-22-2014, 12:55 PM
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3D format sourcing may be the reason one may go analog, but perhaps this may get solved eventually via an HTPC vendor as well- or budget permitting, choosing the Trinnov Altitude with 3D decoding. 

Why? You would simply run the Oppo/Vanity audio digital into the Trinnov and the video HDMI into your display or video processor.
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Why? You would simply run the Oppo/Vanity audio digital into the Trinnov and the video HDMI into your display or video processor.

By 3D format sourcing, I mean 3D decoding of Atmos, Auro, etc, which have more channels then the Oppo/Vanity's 7.1 solution.  


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post #162 of 175 Old 04-22-2014, 01:17 PM
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By 3D format sourcing, I mean 3D decoding of Atmos, Auro, etc, which have more channels then the Oppo/Vanity's 7.1 solution.  

I see. I personally would not worry about future proofing my product roadmap for emerging formats with no available content and hardware, when $300 buys you a board NOW that gives you the best available signal path for playback of all existing content.
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By 3D format sourcing, I mean 3D decoding of Atmos, Auro, etc, which have more channels then the Oppo/Vanity's 7.1 solution.  

Well not with Auro. That is the beauty of it. An Auro 3D 13.1 content can be packaged down to a simple 7.1 mix. So one doesn't need to purchase a new blu ray player to decode auro content. My 2 auro encoded blu rays that I own just get seen as a normal 7.1 mix to the blu ray player and play back as such in a non auro enabled decoder. But run the signal thru an auro enabled pro and it will see it as an auro mix.
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But run the signal thru an auro enabled pro and it will see it as an auro mix.
How would you get that decoded Auro soundtrack into an outboard Trinnov?

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Originally Posted by Curt_Trinnov View Post


3D format sourcing may be the reason one may go analog, but perhaps this may get solved eventually via an HTPC vendor as well- or budget permitting, choosing the Trinnov Altitude with 3D decoding. 

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How would you get that decoded Auro soundtrack into an outboard Trinnov?

I was guessing that Curt was stating that the Altitude may have 3D decoding?
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I was guessing that Curt was stating that the Altitude may have 3D decoding?
Trinnov licensing decoding from Dolby or DTS or Auro? Wonder if that would be a first for them.

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Trinnov licensing decoding from Dolby or DTS or Auro? Wonder if that would be a first for them.

And a major reason to get an Altitude....

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And a major reason to get an Altitude....
I'm not selling one of my kidneys, even though I know you'll try to convince me I have a spare.

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Well the official blurb on the Altitude does say no decoding, but Curt has mentioned they are still working things out and decoding may be included.

I for one would be very interested in an Altitude if they included decoding off all the current codecs and Auro. With Atmos and dts new offerings being able to be added in the future.

It would also put them in very high standing in the processor world and probably take a good chunk of business away from the Ada reference. And probably for a good 10-20k cheaper.
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post #170 of 175 Old 04-22-2014, 03:57 PM
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I'm not selling one of my kidneys, even though I know you'll try to convince me I have a spare.

You know I'll try....what's a kidney when you can have a relatively future-proof AIO solution? biggrin.gif. And it would probably last you longer than, say, a new car....

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Denon 4311 with XT32 and Audyssey Pro

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Panasonic VT50

Sherwood R-972 with its version of the Trinnov Optimizer

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post #171 of 175 Old 04-23-2014, 12:21 AM
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I think what Curt said on decoding was pretty explicit. I am sure that development has helped improve the piece a lot since it was shown at ISE.
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post #172 of 175 Old 04-23-2014, 01:26 PM
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Curt, are the following guesses correct?

1. My Optimizer will not be upgradable to have Auro decoding or upmixing (which Sanjay heard and was favorably impressed by)

2. If/when Trinnov adds speaker configuration options for Auro, they will be available to me via s/w upgrade

BTW, still working on those last two speakers.

Noah
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post #173 of 175 Old 04-23-2014, 11:31 PM
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

Curt, are the following guesses correct?

1. My Optimizer will not be upgradable to have Auro decoding or upmixing (which Sanjay heard and was favorably impressed by)

2. If/when Trinnov adds speaker configuration options for Auro, they will be available to me via s/w upgrade

BTW, still working on those last two speakers.

Yes, Noah- on all accounts-

 

1. Correct-  Auro decoding will require bitstream decoding, something your Trinnov is not configured for. 

 

2.  Correct- your Optimizer may in the future be upgrade-able to remap to Auro consumer standard. This would assume the Auro channels are already decoded into channels.

 

3. Your speakers will be done before you know it!! 


___________
Curt Hoyt
3D Audio Consultant

Trinnov Audio
USA

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post #174 of 175 Old 04-24-2014, 12:34 PM
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What's your schedule like in a week or two?

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post #175 of 175 Old 04-25-2014, 02:04 PM
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Is anyone aware of any device that will convert HDMI audio bitstream to USB?
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