Trinnov MC set up guide with SSP and JVB modded Oppo! - Page 7 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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Old 01-13-2016, 11:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LJG View Post
I have a Vanity HD series SPDIF version, with Pro Audio custom cabling for connections to from MC.
You only used a cable? From the the spdif? No transformer nor converter nor detangler? That worked?
This guy in gear lutz claimed RCA is really more like 50 ohms. That is why I'm so confused about AES with the RCA.

Edit: the gear lutz guy also said if BNC then you have 75 ohms on coaxial. My point is that RCA influences & it implies no way we can get 110 ohms from RCA.

I'll get this resolved by tomorrow morning. I'm just going to get a hold of my cable vendor.

BTW: I'm seeing a trend here.
Did France take over the forum?

In the last 48 hours in this forum:
I've been solicited 3 times to buy Trinnov stuff.
Still not an answer to single question mind you. In fact I was given wrong information more than once - though the guy was upstanding enough to admit it.

Oddly enough I had the same experience last year.
I was also considering the Trinnov last year but decided on Dirac's hdmi box. (I regretted it because I didn't realize I could use with my own DAC with Trinnov - I always wanted a multichannel DAC.) Also than I was solicited & no answers.

I guess no one knows if I could use the rear USB port for the volume knob? In the manual it says the front. But I can't have wiring sticking out of the front of my rack.

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Old 01-14-2016, 06:59 AM
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The Oppo acts as your Dolby Digital/DTS Decoder and PCM is output to the MC, this can be done with Vanity Boards, either RCA, or AES outputs. When I first purchased my Vanity Board RCA outputs were the only output available.
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Old 01-14-2016, 03:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptCapitalism View Post
You only used a cable? From the the spdif? No transformer nor converter nor

detangler? That worked?
This guy in gear lutz claimed RCA is really more like 50 ohms. That is why I'm so confused about AES with the

RCA.

Edit: the gear lutz guy also said if BNC then you have 75 ohms on coaxial. My point is that RCA influences & it

implies no way we can get 110 ohms from RCA.

I'll get this resolved by tomorrow morning. I'm just going to get a hold of my cable vendor.

BTW: I'm seeing a trend here.
Did France take over the forum?

In the last 48 hours in this forum:
I've been solicited 3 times to buy Trinnov stuff.
Still not an answer to single question mind you. In fact I was given wrong information more than once - though

the guy was upstanding enough to admit it.

Oddly enough I had the same experience last year.
I was also considering the Trinnov last year but decided on Dirac's hdmi box. (I regretted it because I didn't

realize I could use with my own DAC with Trinnov - I always wanted a multichannel DAC.) Also than I was

solicited & no answers.

I guess no one knows if I could use the rear USB port for the volume knob? In the manual it says the front. But

I can't have wiring sticking out of the front of my rack.

LJG's setup is perfect for your application. There has been a lot of testing and research, with both JVB and digital i/o experts to verify minimum jitter, top sonic results. This included listening tests vs a Theta Casablanca. One of the most significant advantages of this route is that it, unlike the Casablanca and many consumer units doesn't have sample rate converters in the signal chain that veil the sound.

If anyone else is interested in perusing this route, there are a few Trinnov MCs (the original way of doing this) that are coming up for sale as those users move up to the Altitude. PM me for details. As the D-Mon is new, I've not had much experience with the user interface, which has been in development over 2015. However, I tuned the first early adopter D-Mons delivered to LA last summer for 3 film mix rooms. Tuning aspect is typical Trinnov interface with no surprises.

The key similarities between the new D-Mon and MC:

-Both use the same Trinnov hardware architecture for audio i/o and processing- AES, DA, ADs etc.
-Both can be software upgraded as new features are developed- so both are up to date...

The differences:

- The newly introduced D-Mon is designed to seamlessly interface with Pro Tools mixing environments, and is limited to a max of 8 channels in @ 96k, 16 channels out (extra channels for xovers, multiple monitors, etx. Audio processing engine is an Atom PC core.

- The MC is designed to go into more universal environments,and is used in broadcasting, dubbing stages, recording, mastering, and of course, several home theaters. It supports a max of 16 full channels in/out with max sample rate 192k. Audio processing based on a more powerful i3/5 PC (depending on version). Could be used with an Oppo, and possibly a 3D processor with up to 16 outputs.

Cheers,

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Old 01-14-2016, 06:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptCapitalism View Post
You only used a cable? From the the spdif? No transformer nor converter nor detangler? That worked?
This guy in gear lutz claimed RCA is really more like 50 ohms. That is why I'm so confused about AES with the RCA.
SPDIF on an RCA jack is 75ohms. You will need a matching transformer to go into 110ohm balanced AES. Some people cheat on the consumer side and run the unbalanced SPDIF into 110ohm balanced AES with old "tie pin 3 to pin 1" trick. Not recommend but with short cables it may work fine.

Use a 75ohm video cable for SPDIF. Cheap RG59 is all you need. We run thousands of feet of Belden 1505 where I work for AES-3 which is AES at 75ohms on a BNC connector.

Don't get caught up in the expensive precision 75ohm RCA connector hogwash. At SPDIF frequencies the connector impedance is irrelevant, but the cable still is. Also a 75ohm RCA connector is an oxymoron IMO! While they do make them, any competent engineer concerned about connector impedance is not going to use an RCA connector in the first place!
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Old 01-14-2016, 06:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Curt_Trinnov View Post
LJG's setup is perfect for your application. There has been a lot of testing and research, with both JVB and digital i/o experts to verify minimum jitter, top sonic results. This included listening tests vs a Theta Casablanca. One of the most significant advantages of this route is that it, unlike the Casablanca and many consumer units doesn't have sample rate converters in the signal chain that veil the sound.

Cheers,
If the Trinnov doesn't have SRC in it's inputs, then how does it lock to the source?

Options I see are external work lock from the source to the Trinnov or Trinnov to the source. Or you lock the Trinnov clock to the incoming AES stream.

BTW, modern SRC's have harmonics in the -140db range even at 1:1 conversion. Basically inaudible.
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Old 01-15-2016, 09:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Curt_Trinnov View Post
LJG's setup is perfect for your application.
I would think I would be better off with the AES if it's available. Why should I get SPDIF if AES is available & the destination is AES? LJG is SPDIF.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curt_Trinnov View Post
There has been a lot of testing and research, with both JVB and digital i/o experts
With the Trinnov combo, or just the SPDIF -> SPDIF and AES -> AES?
At somepoint I would want to get a (inline?) cable tester. Although not sure what I should test for? ohms? Man, I got research to do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curt_Trinnov View Post
The MC ...Audio processing based on a more powerful i3/5 PC (depending on version) .
That is incorrect according to the spec and logically. Spec says D-Mon has Intel i7. i7 is more powerful than i5. And it's 5+ years old. How can a five YO PC be more powerful than new?

Revel: 3 x F206, 2 x M105 | Fathom e112|3 x Krell S-150m| Emerald Physics EP 100.2 | Trinnov Demon 6| XTZ Pro | Oppo BDP-103 & Vanity HD| Tivo Roamio+ | Furman SPR-20i | Radiance 2021 & ChromaPure Auto-Calibrate | JVC DILA X3 | Stewart Studiotek 130 | Apple TV | Salamander Matteo | Jensen Transformer (PC-2XR)
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Old 01-15-2016, 09:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glimmie View Post
SPDIF on an RCA jack is 75ohms. You will need a matching transformer to go into 110ohm balanced AES. Some people cheat on the consumer side and run the unbalanced SPDIF into 110ohm balanced AES with old "tie pin 3 to pin 1" trick. Not recommend but with short cables it may work fine.

Use a 75ohm video cable for SPDIF. Cheap RG59 is all you need. We run thousands of feet of Belden 1505 where I work for AES-3 which is AES at 75ohms on a BNC connector.

Don't get caught up in the expensive precision 75ohm RCA connector hogwash. At SPDIF frequencies the connector impedance is irrelevant, but the cable still is. Also a 75ohm RCA connector is an oxymoron IMO! While they do make them, any competent engineer concerned about connector impedance is not going to use an RCA connector in the first place!


Good points. We hashed this out two years ago, on the beginning page of this thread. Since then several have very successfully used this combination. Cheers, Curt

From two years ago.... Post #27



Quote:
Originally Posted by Curt_Trinnov View Post
Quote:Originally Posted by edorr 

I think we are overcomplicating this. When I did my proof of concept, I used a short $5 digital coax to XLR cable (made by Lynx). It worked beatifully and sounded fine. I also tried an adapted (probably the canare). It is restricted to 48/24 and it sounded like crap. I currently use the z-system switcher/converter (I switch multiple digital inputs into my Trinnov) which works fine as well. However, for a single source system (i.e. Oppo -> Trinnov) the short runs coax to XLR (S/PDIF to AES/EBU) will work OK. Curt @ Trinnov also used them.


Curt_Trinnov Responded:


Great to see the discussion on modded Oppo w MC2. I use it here.

I concur with Edorr. I've used the Canare transformers, spec’d at 6mHz bandwidth, are intended for passing 48k digital audio in broadcast applications, not more. Broadcast facilities have lots of 75 ohm running around, so the Canare adapter made moving digital audio very easy. I have four of them here. They are useless above 48/24 audio and indeed sound terrible at 96/24. Give it a try if you like. Someone can buy mine.

SPDIF to MC2 AES in

Trinnov has high bandwidth input isolation transformers (good for 192/24) with the standard AES/EBU 110 input impedance, and Trinnov has designed in significant input sensitivity specifically to accept SPDIF signals. The key is to use short cables. The higher the sample rate, the shorter the cable, and importantly, the less reduced jitter.

What's going on?

The easiest way to describe the impedance mismatch issue is that when impedance is ideal (seldom accomplished, usually some error of low magnitude), the signal flows from end to end with no reflections. If there is an impedance mismatch- from any source, be it a connector, the cable, or the terminations (the end source, in this case 75 ohm SPDIF, or the end = AES 110 ohm), there is a reflection caused. The reflection of the signal then gets mixed with the original signal, causing distortion. Long cables are best served by using an active impedance converter that has the bandwidth required, and short cables doesn't matter. Whats short or long? The typical rule, applied to radio frequencies, is that impedance mismatches don't matter at 1/10 the wavelength or less. For 6 Mhz, this would be 150m. As digital audio is square waves, the rule of thumb is 10x, so this would become 15m, still a considerable length. Of course, we're all looking for excellent performance, so the shorter the better. I believe the best route is to go well inside these guidelines. One can get away with 6' (2m) interfaces, but I prefer 1.5-3’, as it just means less jitter.


MC2 AES > SPDIF

For applications such as an outboard converter. Caution! The Impedance mismatch is easily handled, but the voltage difference is an issue. Where one drops voltages (SPDIF> AES), here you have AES (higher voltage) feeding an input that is easily over-saturated. The input circuit could be damaged by the mis-match. The easiest way to do this is with a resistor bridge that corrects for both impedance and voltage placed at the SPDIF side. Please PM me if you need an example of such a design.

Anyone done any AP measurements? I'd be interested it that...

Cheers-

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Old 01-15-2016, 11:14 AM
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Thanks for your responses Curt.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curt_Trinnov View Post
Good points. We hashed this out two years ago
2 years ago there was no AES Vanity. Now I was hoping things would be better?
But not really finding much about RCA AES/EBU on web. If anything it discusses SPDIF - > AES.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curt_Trinnov View Post
I think we are overcomplicating this.
Yes & No. I agree that it all will sound fine. No doubt. I saw the discussions.

2 years ago, it was all clear that the source was SPDIF & if you want to go to spec you need transformer. But lo & behold the audiophiles heard no diff with Trinnov.

But for 10K+, and we're doing not to spec things, like integrating Pro w/ consumer, RCA to DB25, I would do everything in my power to make sure things are at least wired correctly and the wires were made correctly. At least to try? If I don’t like things correct, fine. At least we are informed.

If I was forced to use SPDIF Vanity, I would find the correct transformer that didn't hurt the sound. I've google some high-end ones. Even though it's an entire another cable and component in the signal path.

The Trinnov is not needed in the path neither and is also another entire component, AND heck it's a PC in the chain, but if you want correct EQ...

Revel: 3 x F206, 2 x M105 | Fathom e112|3 x Krell S-150m| Emerald Physics EP 100.2 | Trinnov Demon 6| XTZ Pro | Oppo BDP-103 & Vanity HD| Tivo Roamio+ | Furman SPR-20i | Radiance 2021 & ChromaPure Auto-Calibrate | JVC DILA X3 | Stewart Studiotek 130 | Apple TV | Salamander Matteo | Jensen Transformer (PC-2XR)
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Old 01-15-2016, 11:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glimmie View Post
If the Trinnov doesn't have SRC in it's inputs, then how does it lock to the source?

Options I see are external work lock from the source to the Trinnov or Trinnov to the source. Or you lock the Trinnov clock to the incoming AES stream.

BTW, modern SRC's have harmonics in the -140db range even at 1:1 conversion. Basically inaudible.
All trinnovs lock to the source clock, no SRC.

Given the choice: SRC, or no SRC (lock to Word Clock or AES ), I'd take locking to incoming any day over SRC, regardless of the spec, as perfect performance <to me> is not a given. There are some great specs out there, but at the end of it all, choices on how to accomplish SRC are being made and it's debatable as to if a particular SRC effects are inaudable. SRC is about waveform re-construction- and why do it in the first place if one doesn't have to?

http://src.infinitewave.ca/help.html
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/apr1...qa-0415-03.htm

Cheers, Curt

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Old 01-15-2016, 11:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptCapitalism View Post
I would think I would be better off with the AES if it's available. Why should I get SPDIF if AES is available & the destination is AES? LJG is SPDIF.

With the Trinnov combo, or just the SPDIF -> SPDIF and AES -> AES?
At somepoint I would want to get a (inline?) cable tester. Although not sure what I should test for? ohms? Man, I got research to do.

That is incorrect according to the spec and logically. Spec says D-Mon has Intel i7. i7 is more powerful than i5. And it's 5+ years old. How can a five YO PC be more powerful than new?
AES/SPDIF: three things under the hood: balanced/unbalanced, impedance and data (flag differences). Data is non-issue. Historically, impedance and unbalanced>balanced for the short runs involved- also shown to be a non-issue. Yes, you may find Vanity now offers unbalanced 110 ohm. There is lots of discussion about this at the beginning of this thread regarding these and other issues.

Thanks for pointing out the processor spec found on the website. The correct D-Mon processor spec is Intel ATOM. I've put in notice to have this changed. Current processors used in the lineup:

-Intel ATOM used for ST2, Amethyst, and D-Mon
-Intel i3 used for MC
-Intel i7 used for Altitude

A little research should give you a comparison of the Mips for an earlier vs new i3- if one wants to track the improvement over time. Our systems, like most computer platforms are updated from time to time- The MC has now gone through PC board revisions. The real benefit is not in run-time, but reduced calculation times of the filters.

Cheers,

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Old 01-15-2016, 12:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Curt_Trinnov View Post
All trinnovs lock to the source clock, no SRC.

Given the choice: SRC, or no SRC (lock to Word Clock or AES ), I'd take locking to incoming any day over SRC, regardless of the spec, as perfect performance <to me> is not a given. There are some great specs out there, but at the end of it all, choices on how to accomplish SRC are being made and it's debatable as to if a particular SRC effects are inaudable. SRC is about waveform re-construction- and why do it in the first place if one doesn't have to?

http://src.infinitewave.ca/help.html
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/apr1...qa-0415-03.htm

Cheers, Curt
Agreed, as in most cases the source signal is more than clean enough for good clock recovery. An SRC however can reduce jitter issues but at the expense of adding minor distortions.

Choose your evil but I too would opt for AES lock over SRC if given the choice. In the end I find both the jitter or SRC issues are typically inaudible.

Note however that most pro gear these days just throws in an SRC chip for good measure. Some do allow the option to disable it though.

And of course if a processor works at 96khz or higher, you have SRC right there anyway.
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Old 01-15-2016, 12:33 PM
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I just ordered my D mon!

It's almost a shame to stick my $12k Krell pre pro in my garage. It even matches my mono amps.

It will take me at least a couple of months to get the vanity AES. So no rush on figuring out this cable thing.
I'm $2.5k over budget already. My plan was to get the ST2. Now I have save up.
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Old 01-16-2016, 01:51 AM
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Hi,

Just a question. I'm not really into the "pro-stuff" so sorry if this question is a bit stupid....

If I understand this correctly you could have a full digital chain if using: Oppo with Vanity AES -> Trinnov D-Mon -> Lyngdorf digital amps(sda 2400) -> speakers

So no need for a pre-pro anymore?

How do you control volume?

Thanks for some more info
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Old 01-17-2016, 02:24 PM
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Originally Posted by miliotov View Post
Hi,

Just a question. I'm not really into the "pro-stuff" so sorry if this question is a bit stupid....

If I understand this correctly you could have a full digital chain if using: Oppo with Vanity AES -> Trinnov D-Mon -> Lyngdorf digital amps(sda 2400) -> speakers

So no need for a pre-pro anymore?

How do you control volume?

Thanks for some more info
since the Vanity HD103 DoP board is not cheap, I would like too know if the difference using Oppo vanityAES to Trinnov altitude32 is so much better (day/night )than using HDMI into the Trinnov?
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Old 01-17-2016, 05:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Curt_Trinnov View Post
AES/SPDIF: three things under the hood: balanced/unbalanced, impedance and data (flag differences). Data is non-issue. Historically, impedance and unbalanced>balanced for the short runs involved- also shown to be a non-issue. Yes, you may find Vanity now offers unbalanced 110 ohm...
Amazing!
JVL Posted the specs on how to create a BALANCED 110 ohm RCA cable from the AES vanity. With pictures. Looks easy. In the comments tab.
Basically we split each of the 4 cables to have 2 RCA's. So there should be 8 RCA's. (For 7.1). You plug in the second RCA into the top, unused RCA output.
http://www.jvbdigital.nl/jvb.asp?cur=2&level=sdi&page=title&title=918

I have 5.1.

I have a clever idea that I think should work that I want to run by you guys.
Since 1) there is one dig input 2) Not using channels 7 & 8 and 3) Trinnov can route any input
I would:
Route channels from my stereo output device to input channels 7 & 8. Use Trinnov to toggle stereo & 6 channels by toggling channels 1 - 6/7 - 8.
Brilliant! If I read the manual (pg 17) this should work? It's like virtual inputs - Ha!

So the breakout cables from the single db25 dig in would be routed from 2 source devices!
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Old 01-17-2016, 05:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miliotov View Post
Hi,

Just a question. I'm not really into the "pro-stuff" so sorry if this question is a bit stupid....

If I understand this correctly you could have a full digital chain if using: Oppo with Vanity AES -> Trinnov D-Mon -> Lyngdorf digital amps(sda 2400) -> speakers

So no need for a pre-pro anymore?

How do you control volume?

Thanks for some more info
Yes. The Trinnov replaces prepro, DAC, crossovers & EQ. Depending on model, switching as well. Mine has a single digital 8 channel input. I'm 5.1. So I plan on routing a second stereo device to 2 unused dig channels.
Interesting...Everything's in pairs now.

Volume you have a quite few options. Since it's a computer. I plan on using a USB Volume knob for $35 in Amazon. Very cool looking!!!

You can use any device that has chrome as well. Also VNC.
Also use the hdmi out to your projector & a mouse....
Haven't received my unit but if I understand the manual you have all of those options.
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Old 01-17-2016, 05:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yin View Post
since the Vanity HD103 DoP board is not cheap, I would like too know if the difference using Oppo vanityAES to Trinnov altitude32 is so much better (day/night )than using HDMI into the Trinnov?
Well there's also the option to use antelopes $12K DAC for 2 channel. The MSB $90k DAC. This is not available with the alt32 (w/o down converting) or any pre pro in the universe for that matter. Than compare the 2. It still comes out cheaper with the antelope. My tech. Etc. No way Trinnov has a better DAC than the super ones. It has word click slave/master so you could daisy chain DAC's. Or get 8 channel ones.

And I feel as if we stuck it to the man.
Intellectual property is one thing, but not at the price that we can't enjoy my movies the way we want to.

I finally feel as if I live in America again. I for one am dying to know what a super duper audiophile approved DAC sounds like when watching blu rays. Instead of the ones that come in theses $10k pre pros I keep buying.

Also EQ technology seems to last way longer than pre pros tech. I plan on using this as an EQ exclusively. The EQ should last longer if I don't make it do DAC duties as well?

I wonder if Trinnov will ever do MQA? As a software update?
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Old 01-17-2016, 06:14 PM
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I'm officially renaming the oppo to:
The mean, mean PCM machine.

A modern day warrior
Mean, mean stride
Today's Oppo
Mean, mean pride...
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Old 01-17-2016, 06:53 PM
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Yeah but here is hoping the next oppi has technicolor hdr upscaling from sdr via the widely available new mediatek, sigma, etc chips. They call it intelligent tone mapping and let me tell you sucker works!
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Old 01-17-2016, 11:09 PM
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since the Vanity HD103 DoP board is not cheap, I would like too know if the difference using Oppo vanityAES to Trinnov altitude32 is so much better (day/night )than using HDMI into the Trinnov?
No, there is no advantage to using the Vanity with the Altitude. The Oppo/Vanity/Multichannel pro Trinnov combination was developed by me to support high end multi-channel audio before the Altitude was conceived.

Altitude accepts HDMI and provides any decoding of the audio. In this case, HDMI is the ideal solution.

Trinnov pro units only have PCM audio in, which is why I proposed this as a high fidelity solution a couple of years ago. A great combination, as the Oppo provides decoding of discs and switching/decoding of two HDMI sources. It's still a viable solution for those who only want up to 7.1 sources, cannot budget for an Altitude, and are willing to use what is a pro Monitor Controller / Room Corrction EQ system for a a consumer application. More details are found at the beginning of this thread.

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Old 01-17-2016, 11:19 PM
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Well there's also the option to use antelopes $12K DAC for 2 channel. The MSB $90k DAC. This is not available with the alt32 (w/o down converting) or any pre pro in the universe for that matter. Than compare the 2. It still comes out cheaper with the antelope. My tech. Etc. No way Trinnov has a better DAC than the super ones. It has word click slave/master so you could daisy chain DAC's. Or get 8 channel ones.

And I feel as if we stuck it to the man.
Intellectual property is one thing, but not at the price that we can't enjoy my movies the way we want to.

I finally feel as if I live in America again. I for one am dying to know what a super duper audiophile approved DAC sounds like when watching blu rays. Instead of the ones that come in theses $10k pre pros I keep buying.

Also EQ technology seems to last way longer than pre pros tech. I plan on using this as an EQ exclusively. The EQ should last longer if I don't make it do DAC duties as well?

I wonder if Trinnov will ever do MQA? As a software update?
Curt
is Trinnov going to implement MQA?
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Old 01-18-2016, 10:34 AM
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..... I for one am dying to know what a super duper audiophile approved DAC sounds like when watching blu rays. Instead of the ones that come in theses $10k pre pros I keep buying.
In theory, in a proper DBT, I would expect to hear no difference. Most of the high end processors I have looked at have excellent DAC implementations. Even the higher end AV receivers such as the Marantz series have excellent DAC sections. At our current audio technology level, making a very good DAC is not that difficult or expensive. You have to make sure you are listening to the audio and not the price tag or magazine review. Only a DBT can provide a fair comparison.

Now here's something to think about - Can the $12,000 DAC have inferior performance to a $399 Denon AV receiver. It sure can!. There are many ultra high end audiophile products that are quite poorly engineered. They lay the snake oil on thick and the non technical audio reviewers suck it right up.

That said, an expensive DAC with poor technical performance may indeed sound better to some ears. Various distortions have a way of making some gear sound better but then it's not transparent to the source either. If you want accurate reproduction, then technical specs are very important. If you just like the way something sounds, then go for it.
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Old 01-18-2016, 02:29 PM
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No, there is no advantage to using the Vanity with the Altitude....In this case, HDMI is the ideal solution...
In most cases not only is the Altitude way better, the other Trinnov models won't work at all.

In terms of ease of use Altitude is way better.
In terms with it working with at all with a codec other than PCM, Altitude is way better.
In terms with it working with at all with the current connectors like HDMI & SPDIF, Altitude is way better.
In terms with it working with at all with future 6 channel sources, Altitude is way better.
In terms to use a system that electronic companies & holy wood would like us to, Altitude is way better.

In fact, the only advantage of the vanity/non-altitude Trinnonv I can see is:
1) It's cheaper as you pointed out (Which is a pre req for me)
2) one can use a dedicated DAC up to 96 khz PCM. So vanity might or might not have the upper hand here.
3) Use a Trinnov as a dedicated EQ in a modular type set up.

Things I'm not sure about:
How do DACs deal with HD codecs? Does it, as I suspect, convert to PCM first? Than neither has advantage.
If DAC's took the HD codecs natively, than converting to PCM is a needless conversion.
The Altitude would be better for that reason as well. More efficient, for sure.

Revel: 3 x F206, 2 x M105 | Fathom e112|3 x Krell S-150m| Emerald Physics EP 100.2 | Trinnov Demon 6| XTZ Pro | Oppo BDP-103 & Vanity HD| Tivo Roamio+ | Furman SPR-20i | Radiance 2021 & ChromaPure Auto-Calibrate | JVC DILA X3 | Stewart Studiotek 130 | Apple TV | Salamander Matteo | Jensen Transformer (PC-2XR)

Last edited by CaptCapitalism; 01-18-2016 at 02:30 PM. Reason: spelling
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Old 01-18-2016, 03:01 PM
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How do DACs deal with HD codecs? Does it, as I suspect, convert to PCM first? Than neither has advantage.
If DAC's took the HD codecs natively, than converting to PCM is a needless conversion.
The Altitude would be better for that reason as well. More efficient, for sure.
Most if not all stand alone DACs only accept PCM. If they have a decoder in front of them, then they are typically called processors or decoders.
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Old 01-18-2016, 03:12 PM
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Most of the high end processors I have looked at have excellent DAC implementations. Even the higher end AV receivers such as the Marantz series have excellent DAC sections.
I've spoken with the appropriate people in quite a few (if not all) Pre Pro companies. I always either have my dealer hook me up, or go to shows. When ever I ask what technology they used/trickle down from their dedicated DAC's. Always: nata. They all give me the vibe, like what's the big deal about DACing in multi channel. In 2 channel, than yes we feel the DAC is a very important.
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At our current audio technology level, making a very good DAC is not that difficult or expensive.
My point exactly. "current." if we put our selves in a situation that if DAC tech changes, we can swap it out that is an awesome accomplishment in of & of it self. Something that only be accomplished with the Vanity. Even if today there's no difference. Big advantages to having a modular system. I've kept my last EQ for 3 Pre Pro's. And the software inside is still very popular.

Revel: 3 x F206, 2 x M105 | Fathom e112|3 x Krell S-150m| Emerald Physics EP 100.2 | Trinnov Demon 6| XTZ Pro | Oppo BDP-103 & Vanity HD| Tivo Roamio+ | Furman SPR-20i | Radiance 2021 & ChromaPure Auto-Calibrate | JVC DILA X3 | Stewart Studiotek 130 | Apple TV | Salamander Matteo | Jensen Transformer (PC-2XR)
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Old 01-18-2016, 03:15 PM
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Most if not all stand alone DACs only accept PCM. If they have a decoder in front of them, then they are typically called processors or decoders.
So what are DSD DAC's?
They get converted to PCM first? So DSD DAC's are processors or decoders as well? I read this article that Direct Stream does the opposite. It converts everything to DSD first.

Revel: 3 x F206, 2 x M105 | Fathom e112|3 x Krell S-150m| Emerald Physics EP 100.2 | Trinnov Demon 6| XTZ Pro | Oppo BDP-103 & Vanity HD| Tivo Roamio+ | Furman SPR-20i | Radiance 2021 & ChromaPure Auto-Calibrate | JVC DILA X3 | Stewart Studiotek 130 | Apple TV | Salamander Matteo | Jensen Transformer (PC-2XR)
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Old 01-18-2016, 03:35 PM
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So what are DSD DAC's?
They get converted to PCM first? So DSD DAC's are processors or decoders as well? I read this article that Direct Stream does the opposite. It converts everything to DSD first.
DSD is yet another hirez stereo audio format. So yes internally the DSD DAC must convert to PCM at some point. There may be DAC chips with a DSD decoder option.

In any case this is not the same format as the BluRay CODECS. They only use discrete analog/AES/SPDIf or are embedded in an HDMI stream.
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Old 01-18-2016, 05:10 PM
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Things I'm not sure about:
How do DACs deal with HD codecs? Does it, as I suspect, convert to PCM first? Than neither has advantage.
If DAC's took the HD codecs natively, than converting to PCM is a needless conversion.
The Altitude would be better for that reason as well. More efficient, for sure.
Aren't all the codecs (other than DSD) PCM, anyway?

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Old 01-18-2016, 05:13 PM
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So we lose nothing converting to PCM first.

so "processing" as in PrePro refers to the PCM conversion? That's the whole process? We name devices after a conversion. Well DAC's are named after a conversion process. Interesting. And cool. We should call them PrePulse's. I hate when appropriate techs don't get proper credit.
Decoding refers to decrypting to PCM? Decode to some other format and then PCM?

It would be way more efficient if DAC's & PrePulses didn't have to convert. I hear that DAC chips mastered PCM conversion so stick with what we know.
But how will we grow as a people without trying?
I would think the best DAC would have a bunch of chips that each work natively on the codec & didn't convert.
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Old 01-18-2016, 05:13 PM
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DSD is yet another hirez stereo audio format.
Not just stereo but also multichannel.

Quote:
So yes internally the DSD DAC must convert to PCM at some point. There may be DAC chips with a DSD decoder option.
Indeed, there are.

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