Trinnov MC set up guide with SSP and JVB modded Oppo! - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 175 Old 01-20-2013, 05:15 PM - Thread Starter
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I guess it starts with an SSP and the need for room correction.

Saw this at JVB (OPPO 103 w/ HDMI input and S/PDIF out). $1100 for this player and the mod.






Now add those pieces to the Trinnov MC and do you have nirvana?

So, you can add a second source (DIrectv) via HDMI and from what I understand from JVB, all is done in the digital domain for not only the Oppo but whatever HDMI source you. I suppose add a HDMI switcher for even more digital sources to pass tot the Trinnov. Now add a Trinnov MC or other Trinnov product for a full digital pathway of room correction and 3-D remapping.

The player decodes to LPCM DTS MA and TRUE HD - but no PLIIx, etc.in the digital domain - but certainly you get all the SSP post processing benefits if inputted into the analog inputs of the Trinnov (with the cost of the extra A/D step).


I've looked into getting a Trinnov MC with a digital input card and 12 channels of output (I may add additional speakers).

I'd like to find out all the pluses and minuses of such an upgrade.

This seems to be where reference audio is heading these days though many of use have used less sophisticated versions of DSPs for years, it looks like the pinnacle may've arrived... in a bit more complicated form.

Such a set up can be had for a 1/3 price of the ADA reference. So, at such a discount, is this where those who want the best on 'somewhat' of a budget should be looking at?

Let's spend this thread talking about set up, the players, level matching, etc.

My Home Theater of the Month- Le Petit Trianon

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #2 of 175 Old 01-21-2013, 05:56 AM
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Interesting idea and great way to avoid the downsampling that would otherwise occur if you tried to take the digital outs from a Theta or DataSat into the Trinnov MC. You mention an HDMI switcher as presumably a switcher would not downsample, could you instead add a pre-pro like the Marantz 8801 to do the switching and perhaps even some decoding (i.e., PLIIx) and then output that signal via HDMI to the Oppo?
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post #3 of 175 Old 01-21-2013, 06:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sipester View Post

Interesting idea and great way to avoid the downsampling that would otherwise occur if you tried to take the digital outs from a Theta or DataSat into the Trinnov MC. You mention an HDMI switcher as presumably a switcher would not downsample, could you instead add a pre-pro like the Marantz 8801 to do the switching and perhaps even some decoding (i.e., PLIIx) and then output that signal via HDMI to the Oppo?

That's a great question... I suppose why not take the HDMI output from the SSP into the OPPO HDMI IN so that you can get a post processed (e.g. PLIIx, etc), digital LPCM signal to the digital input of the MC??

Seems logical and, perhaps, too good to be true!

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post #4 of 175 Old 01-21-2013, 06:25 AM
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Interesting topic guys...

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post #5 of 175 Old 01-21-2013, 06:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sipester View Post

Interesting idea and great way to avoid the downsampling that would otherwise occur if you tried to take the digital outs from a Theta or DataSat into the Trinnov MC. You mention an HDMI switcher as presumably a switcher would not downsample, could you instead add a pre-pro like the Marantz 8801 to do the switching and perhaps even some decoding (i.e., PLIIx) and then output that signal via HDMI to the Oppo?

A switcher should not downsample at all. Oppo used to have an HDMI switcher available but discontinued it a couple of years ago. I wouldn't be surprised if they they release one again soon. There are other good switchers out there anyway...

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post #6 of 175 Old 01-21-2013, 06:44 AM
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post #7 of 175 Old 01-21-2013, 06:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks Mark... and as a side thanks for your old post about your XP-8 power supply failing. I tried to turn on my system the other night and the remote was not responding at all. Then I saw my XP-8 was black. Did a google search to find out if this was common and found your thread asking about a power supply. I had an old RP-6 processor that uses the identical power supply, praying before trying it out, I plugged back in and I was back in business! Phew.. thought my XP-8 crapped out for a bit there. Thanks!

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post #8 of 175 Old 01-21-2013, 07:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

I guess it starts with an SSP and the need for room correction.

Saw this at JVB (OPPO 103 w/ HDMI input and S/PDIF out). $1100 for this player and the mod.






Now add those pieces to the Trinnov MC and do you have nirvana?

So, you can add a second source (DIrectv) via HDMI and from what I understand from JVB, all is done in the digital domain for not only the Oppo but whatever HDMI source you. I suppose add a HDMI switcher for even more digital sources to pass tot the Trinnov. Now add a Trinnov MC or other Trinnov product for a full digital pathway of room correction and 3-D remapping.

The player decodes to LPCM DTS MA and TRUE HD - but no PLIIx, etc.in the digital domain - but certainly you get all the SSP post processing benefits if inputted into the analog inputs of the Trinnov (with the cost of the extra A/D step).


I've looked into getting a Trinnov MC with a digital input card and 12 channels of output (I may add additional speakers).

I'd like to find out all the pluses and minuses of such an upgrade.

This seems to be where reference audio is heading these days though many of use have used less sophisticated versions of DSPs for years, it looks like the pinnacle may've arrived... in a bit more complicated form.

Such a set up can be had for a 1/3 price of the ADA reference. So, at such a discount, is this where those who want the best on 'somewhat' of a budget should be looking at?

Let's spend this thread talking about set up, the players, level matching, etc.

The big advantage of the JVB mod is it works on a 103, which will give you HDMI input switching. JVB also resells the Vanity93 board, which only works on the 93 (no HDMI input). However the Vanity93 reclocks the signal and also has proprietary DSD ->LPCM conversion, and will probably sound better on BR, and most definitely sounds better on SACD.
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post #9 of 175 Old 01-21-2013, 07:34 AM - Thread Starter
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I think in weighing the conveniences of the JVB, I think for a Blu Ray only guy and the ability to possibly post process and used the Oppo as a conduit to get around HDCP, it may be the ideal solution for an all digital stream of all sources through to the MC or the likes.

Seem possible?

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post #10 of 175 Old 01-21-2013, 07:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

I think in weighing the conveniences of the JVB, I think for a Blu Ray only guy and the ability to possibly post process and used the Oppo as a conduit to get around HDCP, it may be the ideal solution for an all digital stream of all sources through to the MC or the likes.

Seem possible?

It should absolutely work. You need to think about how to convert the (75ohm) S/PDIF outputs to (110ohm) AES/EBU inputs (over DB25). I would personally get a very short custom DB25 to coax adaptor cable made.
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post #11 of 175 Old 01-21-2013, 08:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sipester View Post

Interesting idea and great way to avoid the downsampling that would otherwise occur if you tried to take the digital outs from a Theta or DataSat into the Trinnov MC. You mention an HDMI switcher as presumably a switcher would not downsample, could you instead add a pre-pro like the Marantz 8801 to do the switching and perhaps even some decoding (i.e., PLIIx) and then output that signal via HDMI to the Oppo?

Are you sure the marantz would output anything more than 2 channel audio via hdmi. I do not know of any pro that will output full 7.1 audio from hdmi.
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post #12 of 175 Old 01-21-2013, 08:39 AM
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Originally Posted by djnickuk View Post

Are you sure the marantz would output anything more than 2 channel audio via hdmi. I do not know of any pro that will output full 7.1 audio from hdmi.

I thought (but I could be wrong) that an SSP would not downsample anything on HDMI, as I thought they would act just like an HDMI switcher (which to my knowledge, does not downsample). But perhaps that is not the case, looking for someone with definitive feedback on that.

Thebland, the Oppo with the JVB mod looks like a great deal and comes with built-in Blu-Ray, but wondering if something like this would work equally as well for the Trinnov MC: http://www.meridian-audio.com/the-collection/surround-sound/hd621-hdmi-audio-processor.aspx

I know it was designed to link with the Meridian SSP, but I see that it has 4 digital outs, would that work with the Trinnov MC, or does that downsample the digital signal (just like the Theta and Datasat)?
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post #13 of 175 Old 01-21-2013, 08:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sipester View Post

I thought (but I could be wrong) that an SSP would not downsample anything on HDMI, as I thought they would act just like an HDMI switcher (which to my knowledge, does not downsample). But perhaps that is not the case, looking for someone with definitive feedback on that.

Thebland, the Oppo with the JVB mod looks like a great deal and comes with built-in Blu-Ray, but wondering if something like this would work equally as well for the Trinnov MC: http://www.meridian-audio.com/the-collection/surround-sound/hd621-hdmi-audio-processor.aspx

I know it was designed to link with the Meridian SSP, but I see that it has 4 digital outs, would that work with the Trinnov MC, or does that downsample the digital signal (just like the Theta and Datasat)?

The Meridian box won't work. the digital outputs are encrypted and Meridian proprietary.
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post #14 of 175 Old 01-21-2013, 09:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by edorr View Post

It should absolutely work. You need to think about how to convert the (75ohm) S/PDIF outputs to (110ohm) AES/EBU inputs (over DB25). I would personally get a very short custom DB25 to coax adaptor cable made.

Then, if you'd wanted to add PLIIx use in the Oppo 103, could you loop its second HDMI output back into your SSP and then run it back through itself allowing post processing?biggrin.gif

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post #15 of 175 Old 01-21-2013, 09:23 AM
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Then, if you'd wanted to add PLIIx use in the Oppo 103, could you loop its second HDMI output back into your SSP and then run it back through itself allowing post processing?biggrin.gif

Loopy idea. Of course not. For starters you need to specify which input/source the Oppo is using. You can't have the disc that is spinning and the HDMI input actively processing at the same time.
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post #16 of 175 Old 01-21-2013, 09:29 AM - Thread Starter
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I guess I thought the Oppo was invincible!biggrin.gif

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post #17 of 175 Old 01-21-2013, 10:14 AM
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Excellent that the newer Oppo is modifiable. I was considering getting a BDP-93. But to be honest, for 2 channel I am using my regular preamp into the Trinnov ST2 (I like the volume control and switching of my preamp) and it sounds amazing. I did compare with and without the preamp (using direct digital into the Trinnov) and can't say that I am unhappy with the current setup. And that's why I might just continue to use my Anthem D2 into a multi-channel Trinnov unit. I'd say the benefit of a Trinnov is of such magnitude that the connection method almost doesn't matter. Just my opinion though. Even with just the 2 channel Trinnov there is a great improvement in ht/movies - clarity and focus is improved (which makes sense b/c the phase correction is being applied to the stereo speakers).

I think you can get the MC Trinnov with 75ohm RCA inputs (to match the Oppo digital outputs). Otherwise I'm not sure what happens with the 75ohm/110ohm interface. You could get adaptors but does the impedance mismatch matter? Something to consider.

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post #18 of 175 Old 01-21-2013, 10:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by The Bogg View Post

Excellent that the newer Oppo is modifiable. I was considering getting a BDP-93. But to be honest, for 2 channel I am using my regular preamp into the Trinnov ST2 (I like the volume control and switching of my preamp) and it sounds amazing. I did compare with and without the preamp (using direct digital into the Trinnov) and can't say that I am unhappy with the current setup. And that's why I might just continue to use my Anthem D2 into a multi-channel Trinnov unit. I'd say the benefit of a Trinnov is of such magnitude that the connection method almost doesn't matter. Just my opinion though. Even with just the 2 channel Trinnov there is a great improvement in ht/movies - clarity and focus is improved (which makes sense b/c the phase correction is being applied to the stereo speakers).

I think you can get the MC Trinnov with 75ohm RCA inputs (to match the Oppo digital outputs). Otherwise I'm not sure what happens with the 75ohm/110ohm interface. You could get adaptors but does the impedance mismatch matter? Something to consider.

I wouldn't disagree. My older less sophisticated QSC DSPs were an amazing improvement over my Halcro and Lex 12B running solo. Room correction, to me, is far more significant than A/D or D/A conversion issues.

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post #19 of 175 Old 01-21-2013, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by The Bogg View Post

I'd say the benefit of a Trinnov is of such magnitude that the connection method almost doesn't matter.

I experience quite dramatic improvements through upgrades in hardware (i.e. high grade external DAC for mains), and signal path (i.e. from analog to digital), for 2 channel and multi channel. In fact, for two channel the signal path / hardware impact surpass the Trinnov room correction benefits (in my particular setup, this wont be true for everyone).
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Bogg View Post

I think you can get the MC Trinnov with 75ohm RCA inputs (to match the Oppo digital outputs). Otherwise I'm not sure what happens with the 75ohm/110ohm interface. You could get adaptors but does the impedance mismatch matter? Something to consider.

The ST2 consumer version comes with RCA, not the Pro units. According to Curt, when using a short run of RCA to AES/EBU (or RCA to DB25) cable the mismatch is not an issue.
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post #20 of 175 Old 01-21-2013, 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted by thebland View Post

That's a great question... I suppose why not take the HDMI output from the SSP into the OPPO HDMI IN so that you can get a post processed (e.g. PLIIx, etc), digital LPCM signal to the digital input of the MC??

Seems logical and, perhaps, too good to be true!

Very interesting idea...

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post #21 of 175 Old 01-21-2013, 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted by thebland View Post

That's a great question... I suppose why not take the HDMI output from the SSP into the OPPO HDMI IN so that you can get a post processed (e.g. PLIIx, etc), digital LPCM signal to the digital input of the MC??

Seems logical and, perhaps, too good to be true!

thebland - seems you have generated some interested on this. I would really like to know definitely if this can work or not. Also, if it can, I'm wondering how much of a difference the SSP would make if it is only doing processing of surround sound (i.e., and not doing any room correction, equalization, DAC, etc.)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sipester View Post

thebland - seems you have generated some interested on this. I would really like to know definitely if this can work or not. Also, if it can, I'm wondering how much of a difference the SSP would make if it is only doing processing of surround sound (i.e., and not doing any room correction, equalization, DAC, etc.)

If this works, you would basically use a modded Oppo 103 as a HDMI to S/PDIF converter, without any sampling rate restictions. Keep in mind that the upstream digital source will provide the master clock to the downstream Trinnov, so clocking quality (jitter) will impact sound quality, potentially quite a bit. I don't understand digital processing well enough to know if if using a mediocre SSP would make a difference, since the Trinnov will be using the Oppo clock.
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post #23 of 175 Old 01-21-2013, 05:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sipester View Post

thebland - seems you have generated some interested on this. I would really like to know definitely if this can work or not. Also, if it can, I'm wondering how much of a difference the SSP would make if it is only doing processing of surround sound (i.e., and not doing any room correction, equalization, DAC, etc.)

It's an expensive proposition, but I may take one for the team here and see what happens!smile.gif

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post #24 of 175 Old 01-24-2013, 09:06 AM
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Update for those interested in an alternative Oppo + Trinnov architecture (i.e. run 4 channels through a 4 channel Trinnov unit, run 2 channels thorugh a separate 2 channel outboard DAC, which is what I am doing). I finally found a reference to price of the new 4 channel Amethyst. It is listed at €9500, which would be around $13,000, or (far) more than twice the price of a ST2-Pro. I was seriously interested in the Amethyst, but if this pricing is correct, this is outside of my range.

http://cybwiz.blogspot.com/2012/12/trinnov-amethyst.html

Check out how much Trinnov managed to cram into this box though. Very impressive...

Update from Curt - He mentioned pricing will be in the $10,500 range.
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post #25 of 175 Old 01-25-2013, 11:01 PM
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I run a JVB modified Oppo 103 into a Trinnov MC and then out digitally to 4 Devialets. The Devialets are slaved and control the volume.

I have attached an Apple TV to the Oppo and can confirm that I can get audio from the ATV to the MC via SPDIF.

Haven't tried other HDMI sources yet - directly or via an HDMI switcher - but hope to do so soon. Looks good though. Hope this helps.

Rgrds
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post #26 of 175 Old 01-25-2013, 11:12 PM
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Btw, I don't have an SSP. The Oppo does the decode and the Trinnov does the rest (RC etc).

For 2 channels sources I'm happy to use the Trinnov's remapping if I want to leverage more than two speakers.

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post #27 of 175 Old 01-26-2013, 03:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edorr View Post

The ST2 consumer version comes with RCA, not the Pro units. According to Curt, when using a short run of RCA to AES/EBU (or RCA to DB25) cable the mismatch is not an issue.

I disagree with that.

It's more than a simple adapter cable to convert SPDIF to AES. Balanced AES runs at a higher voltage level than SPDIF or unbalanced AES-3. Just sending the SPDIF into one side of the AES balanced line and grounding the other may work but it could be marginal and introduce clicks and pops.

You need to use balun transformers which cost about $50 per channel pair, so for 8 channels you would need four transformers.

http://www.canare.com/ProductItemDisplay.aspx?productItemID=4

Another potential problem is that AES and SPDIF have minor transport stream differences. AES puts an optional channel status in the ancillary bits and SPDIF reserved this area for the now defunct DAT copy protection. I have never ran into this particular compatibility problem over the years but it is a possibility. Now the question in this case is what is the audio data format where JVB taps the digital audio stream? Are they doing a data reformat through an FPGA or just buffering what ever is there?

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post #28 of 175 Old 01-26-2013, 04:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

I guess it starts with an SSP and the need for room correction.

Saw this at JVB (OPPO 103 w/ HDMI input and S/PDIF out). $1100 for this player and the mod.





1100.00 ? I'm guessing that is the mod using Shawn Fogg's board and not the Vanity board. The discussion on Audiopraise forum seems to imply that. I don't believe there is yet a Vanity board for the 103? Did JVB modify the Vanity board to work with the Oppo 103? One thing for sure is that it it not the full Vanity 93 board because the price is too low so no DSD algorithms for sure, not that you'd be interested in something like that anyway.

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post #29 of 175 Old 01-26-2013, 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by thebland View Post

I wouldn't disagree. My older less sophisticated QSC DSPs were an amazing improvement over my Halcro and Lex 12B running solo. Room correction, to me, is far more significant than A/D or D/A conversion issues.
I believe you could use a server running Dirac Live and Jriver outputting over HDMI into your current processor. Then you could do all of the post processing and mixing in your ADA. You can also completely replace the prelpro http://www.avsforum.com/t/1447789/htpc-experts-is-it-feasible-to-replace-a-pre-pro-with-a-htpc http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Mixing Many seem to actually prefer JRSS , Jriver's post-processing to DDPLL2x if you decided to use the sever for everything. You can add a the ability to watch TV also with Jriver. http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Television

Dirac Live has a free 2 week trial. With a laptop and Jriver, you could try it out to see how it would sound with your ADA.

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post #30 of 175 Old 01-27-2013, 10:11 AM
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It's more than a simple adapter cable to convert SPDIF to AES. Balanced AES runs at a higher voltage level than SPDIF or unbalanced AES-3. Just sending the SPDIF into one side of the AES balanced line and grounding the other may work but it could be marginal and introduce clicks and pops.

You need to use balun transformers which cost about $50 per channel pair, so for 8 channels you would need four transformers.

http://www.canare.com/ProductItemDisplay.aspx?productItemID=4

With an adapter cable is the problem that you are grounding one side of the signal or that the signal may be too low?

It looks like the Canares just balance the signal and actually introduce a .3dB loss.

Wouldn't you need one of these if you want to match impedance and level? I am sure there are several other models available.

http://www.markertek.com/Video-Equipment/Video-Processors/Digital-to-Digital-Conversion/Mutec/MC-1.xhtml?MUT-MC-1

Edit: link corrected thanks to Edorr's post #32.
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