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post #271 of 374 Old 07-26-2013, 07:42 PM
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Art, same questions as HiFi, but I also wanted to know how you felt it compared with the DCI projectors you've seen. Barco and NEC have plenty of light, iris mods for better CR, adjustable panels (at least Barco does, not sure about NEC), Xenon bulb for Barco, probably better optics based on the screen sizes they're designed for, and similar downsides with heat & noise. What was that made you pass on DCI, but jump on the HD5?

 

 

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post #272 of 374 Old 07-27-2013, 06:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hifiaudio2 View Post

Thanks Art for those details!

Are the panels electronically adjustable or truly mechanically adjustable like the Barcos are? That would be a great selling point.

Are there other aperture plates that can increase the contrast? Do you have any idea how much light is lost to do that?

How many calibrated lumens do you think you are getting to get those ftL numbers?


And lastly, is there an explanation somewhere on why the colors from a Xenon bulb look different from a UHP once calibrated? I get that the native spectrum from the bulb is different, but I dont understand how it ends up being different after calibration from something like a Radiance that I would assume would make either look and measure the same....


Thanks again! Sorry for the deluge of follow up questions!

The unit has mechanically adjustable panels,there is another aperture plate that is smaller than the one I have. It will further increase contrast but ,of course, will also reduce the light output. The amount of contrast increase I don't know nor do I know the light reduction. All I have personally is what this unit is doing. We are getting about 3200 lumens.

I've not seen the difference with xenon explained to my satisfaction and this has been the reason for my skepticism to date for what Peter has been saying. If you look at graphs Xenon has all sorts of headroom while UHP must use dichroic filters to get to where it needs to be. All I know is my SIM has calibrated color which should yield the same look but it doesn't trust me.


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post #273 of 374 Old 07-27-2013, 06:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabident View Post

Art, same questions as HiFi, but I also wanted to know how you felt it compared with the DCI projectors you've seen. Barco and NEC have plenty of light, iris mods for better CR, adjustable panels (at least Barco does, not sure about NEC), Xenon bulb for Barco, probably better optics based on the screen sizes they're designed for, and similar downsides with heat & noise. What was that made you pass on DCI, but jump on the HD5?

For my needs I get xenon color, 30fL of light with a unit that is about 25% the size and 1/3 the cost with the enhanced contrast plate installed. I looked at Alan's Barco and it just had very very poor sequential contrast. Granted the HD5 isn't stellar here either however it's quite a bit better than what I've seen to date with DCI units.

That's about it as far as reasoning.

This projector isn't for everyone but I'd say if you using a screen the size of mine it should be strongly considered in ones thought mix.

Art


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post #274 of 374 Old 07-27-2013, 07:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post

For my needs I get xenon color, 30fL of light with a unit that is about 25% the size and 1/3 the cost with the enhanced contrast plate installed. I looked at Alan's Barco and it just had very very poor sequential contrast. Granted the HD5 isn't stellar here either however it's quite a bit better than what I've seen to date with DCI units.

I doubt the price is a third of a DCI projector. Last time I saw price quote on an un-modded Barco DP2K-12C it was 30K for the projector+lens. If you want a DCI server with it it's another 15-20K.

Still if the HD5 has better sequential contrast and 1/4 of the size of a Barco it might be a more tempting option.
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post #275 of 374 Old 07-27-2013, 07:24 AM
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I'd like to thank Art for validating what I've been saying about this projector since April. It's nice to finally have someone else to explain that this unit really is THAT good.

In regards to the comparison to DCI chassis: this is something that we were considering as well- in fact, our screen is perforated to match a Barco DP2K-19B, we were certain that was the next step for our demo system... Well, after speaking with Jim at Display Development, the HD5 seemed like a worthy interim solution for us until cash flow allowed for a modified DCI machine- but here's where things got interesting:
we received the HD5 and realized that we really wouldn't gain much more using a DCI machine at 2-3 times the cost of investment. Yes, there are some things that we'd have the ability to do with the next step up (afford to throw away more light for better contrast), but at what cost and at what additional complexity in our installation?

Jim Burns has been building various versions of the HD5 (under various model numbers by Runco and Wolf) for over 10 years, I'd be so bold as to say that there is not another person MORE qualified to hot rod this particular chassis that Jim.

I should note that when we sent the HD5 to DD for aperture plate installation, the intention was to get the "standard" mid-level aperture plate installed to try for Art, when I spoke to Jim regarding the progress he informed me that he had a custom plate cut for this application- essentially custom-tuned to hit the requirements for light output and contrast that Art had. Where else can you get a CUSTOM projector for 33k?

Based on customer requirements for screen size, light output, and contrast desired- the proper aperture plate is chosen; the hard part is that there is no free-lunch. We all want to drive huge screens and have stellar contrast, but those properties are at odds with each other- you need to kill one to get the other. At least the HD5 has enough horsepower to obtain very good results on most screen sizes required.

Thanks again, Art.

I'm very glad you're happy with the unit, and we're working on your lens.

Dan

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post #276 of 374 Old 07-27-2013, 07:39 AM
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Axel, the real cost to using a DCI machine doesn't come with the base price of the chassis, but rather the cost of the modifications to the unit to make it compatible with home use and maintain reliability (contrast mods, gamma mods, cooling mods,redundant power supplies, and then of course support for all of that). Yes, there are other sources for DCI projectors- but I'd dare to say that Display Development has deployed more modified DCI machines into home systems than any other vendor/source. Remember- these are the same people that were responsible for the Runco MBX-1, SC-1, and now have both the Digital Film series and Digital Reference series.

Believe me, there was serious consideration for us to use a different source to get into the DCI realm- but after speaking with Jim Burns, Pat Bradley, Scott Varner, and Bob Grubbs at CEDIA last year- we decided that the people behind the product were just as important, if not more important, than the desired product. We not only believe in the products that DD produce, but I trust that DD will fully support (and now have evidence that they go above and beyond just support) their products and their dealer base.

To me, believing in my vendors is more important than price.

Dan

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post #277 of 374 Old 07-27-2013, 10:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post

The unit has mechanically adjustable panels,there is another aperture plate that is smaller than the one I have. It will further increase contrast but ,of course, will also reduce the light output. The amount of contrast increase I don't know nor do I know the light reduction. All I have personally is what this unit is doing. We are getting about 3200 lumens.

I had asked Dan earlier in the thread and he said that the DMDs could not be adjusted for convergence. Can the panels be converged in the field or is it a factory only option? Maybe Dan can chime in and clarify.
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Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post

I've not see the difference with xenon explained to my satisfaction and this has been the reason for my skepticism to date for what Peter has been saying. If you look at graphs Xenon has all sorts of headroom while UHP must use dichroic filters to get to where it needs to be. All I know is my SIM has calibrated color which should yield the same look but it doesn't trust me.

My understanding is UHP can be calibrated to look as good as xenon, but the color temp drifts much more with time. So unless you paid Ken to come out and recalibrate multiple times throughout the life of each bulb, the colors on your SIM could be way off by now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post

For my needs I get xenon color, 30fL of light with a unit that is about 25% the size and 1/3 the cost with the enhanced contrast plate installed.

Given your status here, I expect you got a good deal. Maybe even a loss leader. I've been considering the new small Barco with an integrated server and HDMI input. $36k for 1850CR @ 9,000 lumen. I would like to know what DD had to offer with the D5 and the various standard plates, but they dance around the question every time it comes up. I have to believe that's because their asking price/performance isn't competitive.

 

 

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post #278 of 374 Old 07-27-2013, 11:26 AM
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Originally Posted by rabident View Post

I had asked Dan earlier in the thread and he said that the DMDs could not be adjusted for convergence. Can the panels be converged in the field or is it a factory only option? Maybe Dan can chime in and clarify.
My understanding is UHP can be calibrated to look as good as xenon, but the color temp drifts much more with time. So unless you paid Ken to come out and recalibrate multiple times throughout the life of each bulb, the colors on your SIM could be way off by now.
Given your status here, I expect you got a good deal. Maybe even a loss leader. I've been considering the new small Barco with an integrated server and HDMI input. $36k for 1850CR @ 9,000 lumen. I would like to know what DD had to offer with the D5 and the various standard plates, but they dance around the question every time it comes up. I have to believe that's because their asking price/performance isn't competitive.

Lots in that post. Can't comment on most of it. I've never seen my calibrated UHP look this rich in the color nuance but of course that is subjective.I think the Display Design issue is that the plates and CR vs light hasn't been documented adequately. Without an aperture plate or some other contrast enhancement I'd say the Barcos are unacceptable in sequential contrast. Without quoting I think I got the same price as the gentleman who's home was the first demo of the unit I saw a few weeks back.

Art


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post #279 of 374 Old 07-27-2013, 11:41 AM
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I originally thought that the panels were fixed, like many other 3-chip machines. Jim Burns informed me that they were, in fact field adjustable- but DD would rather factory personnel handle it ( obviously, Ken Whitcomb has the qualifications to do so as well)

HD5 specs are difficult to quote because they can be changed to suit the install. Baseline for max light output is 5k lumens and close to 2k:1. the various aperture plates can get you to 10k:1, but you lose most of your light output (60%).

It all depends on your screen size, room, install and how bright hou want the image.

Intrascene contrast on this projector is very high, and the optics are actually better than those on the S2K chassis.

Dan

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post #280 of 374 Old 07-29-2013, 10:56 AM
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How about the NEC NC900C? Would it fit the stated need? Anyone have any experience with it?
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post #281 of 374 Old 07-29-2013, 02:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete View Post

How about the NEC NC900C? Would it fit the stated need? Anyone have any experience with it?

No experience, but in comparing specs with the HD5, I see the NEC only has a .69 Chip, a quoted contrast ratio of 1600:1 and no Xenon bulb, so it appears that for Home Theater the HD5 would be a much better fit.
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post #282 of 374 Old 07-29-2013, 03:13 PM
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From what I read from many sources, the HD5 really is the top choice for "BIG screen" HT use, assuming you can mitigate the noise with a well designed hush box or a separate room, and DON'T need 3D capability. Really doesn't even seem like its a very close contest for 2D only. Needing 3D throws it out the window, which is very unfortunate.

Seems like the next step up for something with real brightness that is "ready to go" out of the box with all HT features and 3D is the Highlite 660 and then the Titan Reference. So you give up some 2D performance to get 3D capability, and pay about the same (Highlite) or ~$20k more (Titan).

Seems like the Sim2 products don't have the real world brightness for the kind of screen sizes the OP is talking about. And the Barco/Christie/NEC products all need other accessories/mods, etc to make them home theater ready.


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post #283 of 374 Old 07-29-2013, 04:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hifiaudio2 View Post

From what I read from many sources, the HD5 really is the top choice for "BIG screen" HT use, assuming you can mitigate the noise with a well designed hush box or a separate room, and DON'T need 3D capability. Really doesn't even seem like its a very close contest for 2D only. Needing 3D throws it out the window, which is very unfortunate.

Seems like the next step up for something with real brightness that is "ready to go" out of the box with all HT features and 3D is the Highlite 660 and then the Titan Reference. So you give up some 2D performance to get 3D capability, and pay about the same (Highlite) or ~$20k more (Titan).

Seems like the Sim2 products don't have the real world brightness for the kind of screen sizes the OP is talking about. And the Barco/Christie/NEC products all need other accessories/mods, etc to make them home theater ready.

Agreed, agreed and agreed. I have to talk more with the dealer because I can't justify the price of the HD5 close to retail knowing that I will "have" to upgrade in a couple of years to get to 4k, 3d etc. I feel like 3d is great for the kids, 4k could potentially have great benfit in a screen my size with the distance of the front and possibly second row.


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post #284 of 374 Old 07-29-2013, 07:00 PM
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HD5 to Highlite is not giving up a little at 2D it's giving up quite a bit for 3D. Optics, color, resolution, consistent light output, the list goes on.

Let's call this what it is: a bright projector that ticks all the feature boxes, but not so much the technology boxes versus one that has the technology boxes ticked with very few feature boxes.

4k imagers are going to be at a high premium for quite some time (for the ones that compare to what we're speaking about here), and content and scaling are still in their infancy.

I agree that 4k will be the next step, but 4 years from now we're all talking about upgrades- but who HAS to upgrade? These are all luxury goods, none of us HAS to have any of this stuff.

I must once again make the following statement; last year's equivalent of the HD5 was 100k- and very little has changed. These are a bargain at this price. A Titan starts at 50k, but Titan Reference is significantly higher with 3D.

Hifi wants 3D that is bright, so the HD5 does not work for him. That leaves him with very few options at around 30k that have 4-6k lumens and 3D. For those that wish to get great 2D, can forego 3D, and desire xenon color the HD5 is an option.

One must decide which picture attributes are the most important. The HD5 is not overpriced in any way whatsoever when compared to what else is available at +/- 5 grand in price; they all just tick different boxes. In most cases, the LENS of the HD5 cost more than the competing projector did to manufacture.

One cannot judge the value of an item without first having experience with said item.

Please don't construe my comments as disparagement; I sell DPI as well as DD, and the Highlight is a great value for what it is, I just see the HD5 as a higher value because of what you get. Kind of like buying the Maserati Grand Sport with a Ferrari engine, drive train, and suspension for the cost of a new Chevy Impala- you may not get all the cool bluetooth, nav, etc. but the performance and driving experience are in a different league...


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post #285 of 374 Old 07-29-2013, 07:23 PM
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Dan if you could only get them to quit releasing 3D movies so I wouldn't feel that I need it, we could do some business! smile.gif

Although really, in truth, if I stuck with being satisfied with great 2d, I would be very happy with my Sony and just swapping the screen for a Stewart, getting to around 16ftL, and call it a day.


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post #286 of 374 Old 07-29-2013, 07:57 PM
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And so you know the path YOU need to take- you're already better-off than most; you have a goal and you know what it will take to achieve it. (or you could just ignore that 3D disc like I do..)

Personally, I'd love to show you the 2D we get on the HD5 vs the 3D available in a Highlight 660 on the same screen...I think the results might make you think a little harder, but then again, maybe not.

Perhaps I need to contact my DPI sales manager....

I'm just playing. However let's recap:

DPI Highlite 660: MSRP of $35k, 8k lumens, .69" DLPs, Chinese Lens, Active 3D capable, 2k:1 full field contrast, UHP lamps

DD HD5: MSRP of$33k, 5k lumens, .95" DLPs, Minolta High Contrast Lens, 2k:1-10k:1 (depending on installation and aperture choice), Xenon lamp

Sony VPL-VW1000ES: MSRP of $25k, 2k lumens, SXRD 4K imagers, Sony hybrid lens, 1M:1 stated contrast, 3D, UHP lamp.

Titan Reference 660 3D: MSRP of $62k, 4-6k lumens, 2K res. Minolta High Contrast Lens, 5k:1 contrast, UHP lamps

In my opinion, the Sony isn't really in the running because it's 10k lower in price. I'd compare it to the HD6 at only 2000 lumens, again they tick the feature boxes very well...

I guess I view it as a situation of tools vs toys.

If you want to drive a 16' wide screen you need a monster projector, whether that screen in perfed or not, woven, etc no longer matters. The very first screen I saw that was 17' wide in a home was paired with a Runco SC-1 at a cool $250k. That was a modified DCI projector (a 2K Christie....).

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post #287 of 374 Old 07-29-2013, 10:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post

I've never seen my calibrated UHP look this rich in the color nuance but of course that is subjective.

I trust you on that. My first 2 projectors were xenon based. I haven't been vocal about my preference for xenon because I've never been 100% sure what I liked was necessarily due to the lamp. No one makes a projector with a Xenon -or- UHP bulb option, so it's hard to isolate the lamp's impact. But I consider xenon a plus as well - it's on my list of wants for my next projector. FWIW, I don't like LED light either. There is something unnatural about it. I felt like an old man insisting on all incandescent (or gas) lighting for my new house.

I'm recovering from knee surgery, so I haven't been able to fly out and see stuff, but your purchase is a good endorsement of D5 picture quality. I would like 3D, though, so not sure I will follow. I've also always perused the highest quality source material available even though it tends to be expensive vs mainstream. So for me, DCI offers more possibility than just over saturated rec709 colors.

 

 

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post #288 of 374 Old 07-29-2013, 10:36 PM
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However let's recap:

DPI Highlite 660: MSRP of $35k, 8k lumens, .67" DLPs, Chinese Lens, Active 3D capable, 2k:1 full field contrast, UHP lamps

DD HD5: MSRP of$33k, 3-5k lumens, .95" DLPs, Minolta High Contrast Lens, 2k:1-10k:1 (depending on installation and aperture choice), Xenon lamp

Titan Reference 660 3D: MSRP of $62k, 4-6k lumens, .95" DLPs, Minolta High Contrast Lens, 5k:1 contrast, UHP lamps

Barco S2K-10sx: MSRP of $36k, 9k lumens, .69" cinema DLPs, Lens? (designed for up to 30' screens), 3D options, 1850:1 contrast, Xenon lamp

My changes in red for purpose of clarification (for those of us that still need to make a decision). I also added the small Barco since that's on my short list and removed the Sony because its so different. Street price is what really matters and DPI is a lot less exclusive than DD, so actual prices may be closer together (after large discounts from DPI dealers).

Dan, you previously said the D5 was 3D ready. What does that mean exactly? Are there 3D options?

 

 

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post #289 of 374 Old 07-30-2013, 03:49 AM
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Yes, but from what I understand it is a frame rate issue: 30fps per eye instead of 60. The chassis has "3D upgradeable" emblazoned on it from Christie- so perhaps a call to them is required...

There is a kit available to turn a Christie HD_ into a Mirage__ but I'm unsure what that entails.

Every time I've asked DD about it, the explanation sounds like a work around.

More research is necessary before I truly quote that it is capable of 3D.

Dan

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post #290 of 374 Old 07-30-2013, 03:55 AM
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Thanks for the corrections, and a couple more clarifications:

The HD5 can probably be throttled down to the 2k lumen realm to really hit black levels.

The Minolta High Contrast Lens used on the HD5 is a level above the HC lens used on the Titan ( by Minolta, the Titan Ref gets a lens highER in contrast compared to what DPI uses otherwise ). Apparently there are a couple to a few lens ranges from Minolta for these things. I've been told that the HD5 lens is actually better glass than on the entry level S2k DCI projectors from both Christie and Barco.

Anyone looking at the Barco baby DCI should also look at the Solaria One+

Dan

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post #291 of 374 Old 07-30-2013, 06:44 AM
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Hifi Audio and/or ChopShop1:

A viable alternative might be a pre-owned DPI Titan 1080P 3D Dual Ultra Contrast, gets you the light output you require, Triple Flash 3D Now, .95" DLPs, Minolta High Contrast Lens, 5k:1 contrast, UHP lamps. If you can stretch your budget to $35-40K......PM me if you are interested
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post #292 of 374 Old 07-30-2013, 09:49 AM
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3D, this is the big boys toys section, just get two rolleyes.gif. And some of them German filters.
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post #293 of 374 Old 07-30-2013, 01:57 PM - Thread Starter
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3D, this is the big boys toys section, just get two rolleyes.gif. And some of them German filters.

Hahahaha....to be honest, I am leaning further and further away from the HD5 anyway. I got to spend a couple of hours at a local "high end" shop that my buddy works at today, viewing 4k off sony and their server with the pre loaded movies...I thought it was amazing! My point is that I need more of a hold me over type unit for the next year or two until 4k is more mainlined and even a year or two beyond that when affordable(relativly of course) high bright 4k units are available. Out of myslef, my wife and my oldest daughter, none of us are effected by RBE, so a nice single chipper like the DPI Mvision260/400 or even like the Rucno LS HB may be great for me, for now in the sub $10k range and will light up the big screen until upgrade time.


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post #294 of 374 Old 07-30-2013, 08:10 PM
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3D, this is the big boys toys section, just get two rolleyes.gif. And some of them German filters.

What are you running at home?

 

 

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post #295 of 374 Old 07-31-2013, 04:00 AM
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Wow! Been away for a bit. Congrats Art on what appears to be a stellar projector. Few on this forum have your 'highest standards' for video reproduction and the greatest complement is your purchasing this piece. I know Dan was all over it, so we knew it was very good but your blessing gives many enthusiasts the green light to look at it further! One of these days, I'd like to come see it!


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post #296 of 374 Old 07-31-2013, 06:30 AM
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When Art gets a new projector, that means a PARTY at his house is coming after the install and endless tweaking by Ken et al. A 1200 mile RT but the Fruit Pizza is worth the trip. I hope my parole officer (wife) lets me go. Congrats Art.

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post #297 of 374 Old 07-31-2013, 10:51 AM
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Jeff,
I need to get the thing in it's final position then come when you want.

Mark,
Tyrus is captain of his high school football team now, no time for HT meets for a while. Steph is married living in San Diego with a four month old, Salina is living in Portland so the ushers are gone.

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post #298 of 374 Old 08-01-2013, 09:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post

Hahahaha....to be honest, I am leaning further and further away from the HD5 anyway. I got to spend a couple of hours at a local "high end" shop that my buddy works at today, viewing 4k off sony and their server with the pre loaded movies...I thought it was amazing! My point is that I need more of a hold me over type unit for the next year or two until 4k is more mainlined and even a year or two beyond that when affordable(relativly of course) high bright 4k units are available. Out of myslef, my wife and my oldest daughter, none of us are effected by RBE, so a nice single chipper like the DPI Mvision260/400 or even like the Rucno LS HB may be great for me, for now in the sub $10k range and will light up the big screen until upgrade time.

Four years is a long hold me over....I have a different take than many regarding my home theater. It is one place where I can completely relax and forget other things. It is my place to recharge so I put a lot of my discretionary income into it but it really allows me an escape that is irreplacable. I'd not be able to wait that long so the HD5 is my hold me over unit.biggrin.gif

Art


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post #299 of 374 Old 08-01-2013, 01:12 PM
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+1

I don't think I could rough it or hold over with a single chipper either. Maybe when I was younger..

If you get a minute, what kind of db rating do you get from about a foot from the unit?

I've had a busy couple years with my oldest girls. One's starting college in 3 weeks and the other next year. So, things have been and are busy. My system has really maintained excellence over the last few years but I'm ready to change some things.

Again, congrats!


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post #300 of 374 Old 08-01-2013, 02:53 PM - Thread Starter
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I think the fact that the best pj I've had is the JVC RS15 and I haven't had the pleasure of viewing a real top level unit for much time is what makes me see it a bit different. I don't have the despensible income now, with one daughter here and another coming any day now, to buy the HD5 and know that I am going to want to replace it with a 3d/4k PJ with the same type of performance in a couple of years. If I spend $30k, it wil be a fixture for a lot of years, and I know I'll be mad about 4k 3 years from now when I'm not able to upgrade without taking a huge loss. What do you guys think realistic 4k availability timeframe will be?? If we are 5 years away from it being like blu ray is now, that changes the game and the HD5 could be in my near future. The other option I have is a "lower level" 3 chip unit like the Rucno ls10 whcihc I can get for under 20k. I thought about used, but if I bought used and had any issues, I would not be able to replace it.
"


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