Need projector capable of lighting up huge screen with great picture. - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 374 Old 02-02-2013, 08:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Good Morning Ladies and Gentlemen. I am hoping to get some insight on my projector needs. As stated above, I am looking for a projector capable of a top quality picture and considerable light ouput. My exposure to PJs is somewhat limited. I had been eyeing the Sony 1000 for the 4k ability and great reviews it has been getting, but it just doesn't seem to have the light output capablity I need. The only projectors that I have any experience with, that may be capable are Runco higher end units, but I'm sure there is more out there. I am still in the building stage, but want to be prepared, and get the theater operational asap once done.

I have chosen a seymour 4k screen and am flipping back and forth between the 190" and 200" wide screens. I have a room under construction that is 21ft wide, 35 feet long and will have three rows of seating. The room decor is being based around acoustics and optimum environment for PJ viewing (mostly black, and very dark gray...carpet, walls, ceiling, you name it). I have tried rsearching units from Barco, dpi and a few others as well, and whil I can tell that many of them have sufficient light output, I have no experience with their actual image quality. I would also like to have something 4k capable, as this will be a big investment for me and i don't want to swap it out in a couple of years if I can help it. For budget, I would really like to stay in the $35k or less range, and for sure no more tahn $40k. I know this is asking a lot for the money, but was hoping someone could help with some insight. In the end, I may have to make some performance comprimises to stay within budget, and that's ok, if it becomes necessary. Thanks in advance!
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post #2 of 374 Old 02-02-2013, 09:09 AM
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Sim 2 Lumis - Not 4K but a great projector.
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post #3 of 374 Old 02-02-2013, 09:31 AM
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What size screen are you intending to use ?

Carlos
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post #4 of 374 Old 02-02-2013, 09:40 AM
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Check out the reviews from Tom Norton from Home Theater magazine:

http://www.hometheater.com/content/sony-vpl-vw1000es-4k-sxrd-3d-projector-take-2


"I immediately confirmed that the new production unit’s 2D performance was every bit as impressive out of the box as that of the first sample. In fact, after nearly 200 hours of break-in, it produced 26 ft-L of peak white on the StudioTek screen in its High lamp setting (Cinema Film 1 mode, Advanced Iris in Auto Full—one of its dynamic modes—and Contrast at 85)—even higher than that of the earlier unit. If this is too bright for you (and it likely will be, suggesting that for 2D the VPL-VW1000 can light up an even bigger screen), it can be reduced by turning down the Contrast slightly, switching to the Low lamp setting (where it produced almost 18 ft-L), using the projector’s manual iris (although that defeats the dynamic-iris feature), or some combination of the three."


"Given a good 1920 X 1080 HD source, the projector produced some of the best 2D images I've yet seen... To see such resolution from conventional HD material on a screen this large is simply jaw dropping..."

"Sony's blacks were respectable in its fixed iris settings but exceptional in the Auto Full dynamic mode...No one does dynamic irises better than Sony."

Tom Norton
Home Theater, February 2012




"Sony's VPL-VW1000ES projector produced the best 2-D Blu-ray images I've ever seen anywhere on any home theatre projection system..."

Doug Blackburn
Widescreen Review, February 2012




I saw this projector here locally and the picture was outstanding. So much so that this projector is on my short list for my HT...
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post #5 of 374 Old 02-02-2013, 10:19 AM
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Of course 4K and light is Barco or Christie, upto 43K Lumens, may also be available in rebadged (modified?) versions by folks like Screen Development, Wolfcinema, (Sim2?), and of course Peter (Cineramax).

Sorry, your stated budget will not be sufficient. Smaller 3 chip DLP 2K units may be available in your budget, but not the 4K units.
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post #6 of 374 Old 02-02-2013, 10:20 AM
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With the budget you mentioned, and a 4K requirement as well, you should consider downsizing the screen and looking at the Sony 1000 mentioned above (I've had several of these in two different systems, and they are excellent, but the screen size should be no larger than 10' -12' wide IMO, and preferrebly closer to 10'. Barco 4K (and even 2K) are not within, or even close to your budget. The Lumis that was recommended puts out an excellent image and will light the screen sizes you mentioned, but it is not 4K (Sim2's 4K is $150K). Likewise, DPI has some great projectors, but the best units, those capable of meeting your "image quality" and "light" requirements are about double your stated budget. All of the manufacturer's mentioned have some excellent PJ's at lower price points, but would likely be better served on a screen smaller than what you are considering. Again, just my opinion.



Jim
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post #7 of 374 Old 02-02-2013, 10:29 AM
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Jim, the 2K smaller chip projectors are/will be available within budget. See: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1431337/small-barco-2k-introduced#post_22496604 The old 0.98" 1200 was somewhat above the set budget. 4K DLP is still above budget.
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post #8 of 374 Old 02-02-2013, 12:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Wow, thank you all for chimming in so quicklly! I will do some more searching as well, and possibly up the budget if needed ( I can't double it, but I can up it). The Idea of a smaller screen doesn't sit too well with me though. If I were to say 4k is out, and I would settle for less, were would the next stop be?? I would much rather sacrifice the 4k than screen size.
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post #9 of 374 Old 02-02-2013, 12:28 PM - Thread Starter
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From what I can tell, the Barco dp2k-10sx is mid $30k range. It will have plenty of light, but I have no experience with image quality of Barco pjs. Will these show a top quality image as well, or just put out lots of light?? Please excuse the simple question, I just don't really know about any pjs outside of the main stream JVC, Sony etc.
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post #10 of 374 Old 02-02-2013, 12:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trek737 View Post

Check out the reviews from Tom Norton from Home Theater magazine:

http://www.hometheater.com/content/sony-vpl-vw1000es-4k-sxrd-3d-projector-take-2


"I immediately confirmed that the new production unit’s 2D performance was every bit as impressive out of the box as that of the first sample. In fact, after nearly 200 hours of break-in, it produced 26 ft-L of peak white on the StudioTek screen in its High lamp setting (Cinema Film 1 mode, Advanced Iris in Auto Full—one of its dynamic modes—and Contrast at 85)—even higher than that of the earlier unit. If this is too bright for you (and it likely will be, suggesting that for 2D the VPL-VW1000 can light up an even bigger screen), it can be reduced by turning down the Contrast slightly, switching to the Low lamp setting (where it produced almost 18 ft-L), using the projector’s manual iris (although that defeats the dynamic-iris feature), or some combination of the three."


"Given a good 1920 X 1080 HD source, the projector produced some of the best 2D images I've yet seen... To see such resolution from conventional HD material on a screen this large is simply jaw dropping..."

"Sony's blacks were respectable in its fixed iris settings but exceptional in the Auto Full dynamic mode...No one does dynamic irises better than Sony."

Tom Norton
Home Theater, February 2012




"Sony's VPL-VW1000ES projector produced the best 2-D Blu-ray images I've ever seen anywhere on any home theatre projection system..."

Doug Blackburn
Widescreen Review, February 2012




I saw this projector here locally and the picture was outstanding. So much so that this projector is on my short list for my HT...

Thanks, I read the full review (both) just now. I would love it if the Sony would work out, but it would be a very expensive mistake if it didn't light it up. I wish I could find a local shop/person with one that I could stretch the image out on and see how it looks
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post #11 of 374 Old 02-02-2013, 02:53 PM
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Tom's light measurements in that review were based on a 118" wide 1.3 gain screen, and that's much smaller than what was stated as target screen size. Do not misunderstand, I think the Sony is an excellent PJ, but I would not use it in large screen applications. Again, that's just me.



Jim
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post #12 of 374 Old 02-02-2013, 02:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by donaldk View Post

Jim, the 2K smaller chip projectors are/will be available within budget. See: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1431337/small-barco-2k-introduced#post_22496604 The old 0.98" 1200 was somewhat above the set budget. 4K DLP is still above budget.




Are these actually available?? Has the price been confirmed with Barco??



Jim
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post #13 of 374 Old 02-02-2013, 03:23 PM
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SIM2 Lumis UNO3D would be within your budget. I think it goes for about $30K. DPI and Runco both have similarly priced 3-chip models, but stay away from the ones with .65 chips if you want maximum performance.
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post #14 of 374 Old 02-02-2013, 03:31 PM
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Best of luck in your search. If you are looking at a screen that is 16'+ wide the Sony may not be the answer. On the Sony site they say the 1000ES works on screens up to 200". The Sony rep at our demo said they got 25 ft. Lambert of light on a 170" screen in one of their demos. Call them up and tell them your situation. What do have to loose except spending more money on a projector that is not 4K which was part of your initial requirement.

Cheers,
Jim
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post #15 of 374 Old 02-02-2013, 03:37 PM
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4K projectors for that screen size are multiples the stated budge ; something must give.

Carlos
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post #16 of 374 Old 02-02-2013, 05:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JlgLaw View Post

Are these actually available?? Has the price been confirmed with Barco??



Jim

They are put in at several Berlinale venues, the festival starts on the 7th, but you know Barco on prices, not very public;-). http://www.dcinematoday.com/dc/pr.aspx?newsID=3113
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post #17 of 374 Old 02-02-2013, 07:57 PM - Thread Starter
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The sim2 specs look good and the price tag is managable. The only thing that concerns me is that my local sim2 dealer actually says there are reliability issues with sim2. I know they are pretty well regarded around here, and every brand of product can have problems, but I would love to hear some other sim2 experiences.

I have another dealer who will give me great prices on Runco units. For some reason the Runco site won't show the spec pages for me..some type of error. I was trying to see what chips they use.

I guess 4k is gonna have to go for now. Maybe in a few years I can pick up a 4k unit. What say you guys about DPI vs the Sim2, Runco??
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post #18 of 374 Old 02-02-2013, 10:17 PM
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Is that starting space, or actual in room? I have 21x35 if I include my planned 5' projector booth in back. I will loose more space after the front screen wall goes in. I also lost some space with double wall framing & soundproofing. Columns, sconces, and fabric walls will further eat into the width. I'm aiming for 20x27 finished in room, which is underwhelming. My plans call for a 13' wide screen. If you're set on 16' wide screen then none of that matters, but if you're just starting out and/or going the DIY route, then considering your finished in room space and view ratios may make the idea of a smaller screen more palatable (assuming your finished dimensions would be smaller). If 21x35 are your finished interior dimensions, then you have an enviable problem.

To maximize light you may want to consider an a-lens. There are pros and cons, but if you need the light and the extra fill (to minimize screen door due to viewing ratio) and can afford a good one then it can make sense. The Sony has a 1.9 native aspect ratio that needs a special 1.25x a-lens to make the most of it. I don't like the idea of spending that kind of money on a lens and having it tied to the projector. You can still "zoom" the Sony to 16:9 and then use something like the ISCO III but you loose some light.

The Sony and the SIm2 Lumis Uno are both rated at 2000 lumens. Runco's $27k ls-10 is 2100 lumens. None are really bright enough. I don't think the regular 'Lumis' is still sold (Jim?). The Lumis 3D Solo looks like the refreshed version with 3000 lumens, which is what I've been leaning towards. MSRP is $50k but I think street price would be within budget.

Also if you still plan to go big on the screen, consider your finished ceiling height, stage height, screen borders, and sight lines to the bottom of the screen for all 3 rows. I had to start with 12' high walls to get everything in the way I wanted. YMMV.

 

 

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post #19 of 374 Old 02-02-2013, 10:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabident View Post

Is that starting space, or actual in room? I have 21x35 if I include my planned 5' projector booth in back. I will loose more space after the front screen wall goes in. I also lost some space with double wall framing & soundproofing. Columns, sconces, and fabric walls will further eat into the width. I'm aiming for 20x27 finished in room, which is underwhelming. My plans call for a 13' wide screen. If you're set on 16' wide screen then none of that matters, but if you're just starting out and/or going the DIY route, then considering your finished in room space and view ratios may make the idea of a smaller screen more palatable (assuming your finished dimensions would be smaller). If 21x35 are your finished interior dimensions, then you have an enviable problem.

To maximize light you may want to consider an a-lens. There are pros and cons, but if you need the light and the extra fill (to minimize screen door due to viewing ratio) and can afford a good one then it can make sense. The Sony has a 1.9 native aspect ratio that needs a special 1.25x a-lens to make the most of it. I don't like the idea of spending that kind of money on a lens and having it tied to the projector. You can still "zoom" the Sony to 16:9 and then use something like the ISCO III but you loose some light.

The Sony and the SIm2 Lumis Uno are both rated at 2000 lumens. Runco's $27k ls-10 is 2100 lumens. None are really bright enough. I don't think the regular 'Lumis' is still sold (Jim?). The Lumis 3D Solo looks like the refreshed version with 3000 lumens, which is what I've been leaning towards. MSRP is $50k but I think street price would be within budget.

Also if you still plan to go big on the screen, consider your finished ceiling height, stage height, screen borders, and sight lines to the bottom of the screen for all 3 rows. I had to start with 12' high walls to get everything in the way I wanted. YMMV.

Its going to be the finished space after stagered framing, drywall, false screen wall etc. It's a great problem to have, but inevitably, we look a level above what we have/can attain...human nature I guess. Now I want $100k Pjs and its just not in the cards. I have been looking closely at the Runco X400, as recommended by a friedn who owns a local shop. It seems to have more than enough to light up the screen, I just wan to check on the chip detials. I can scoop the x4 up with lens and sled for under the msrp of the pj alone, so a great deal really, and below the alternatives in price.

The finished ceiling height will be a bit over te feet. For sure, it will be tricky and a bunch of math to get the layout right, but I am hiring Dennis Erskin to do the design layout, etc. I have the Excavation guys coming in next week again, so I may chat with Dennis this week about going a bit deeper and maybe close to 11' at the first row. That would be 10 in the second and 9 in the third, roughly. If my math is right, I can have that set with about 1ft of wall space above the screen, 2 feet below, and just enough for the stage. That, or roughly close to that, should yield good visability to all rows....I hope biggrin.gif
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post #20 of 374 Old 02-02-2013, 10:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post

I have another dealer who will give me great prices on Runco units. For some reason the Runco site won't show the spec pages for me..some type of error. I was trying to see what chips they use.

In their LS series they use the .65" DLP that Pete mentioned. They refer to them as "Super Onyx" which as far as I can tell is their branding for an unknown performance level chip from TI (unknown to the public). The larger chips are more highly regarded, with the .95" DC4 being the top end for consumer 2k. It would be interesting to A/B a Runco ls-10 vs Sim2 Lumis UNO and see how much difference the chip size makes.

 

 

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post #21 of 374 Old 02-03-2013, 12:09 AM
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I checked the site since I was curious for myself. It says 2100 lumens for the X400 as well. The 52fL claim is dubious without listing a screen size. Normally calibrated lumens go down. Projector central reviewed the LS10 when it came out. Specs said 2100 lumens (uncalibrated), they measured 1800, and got 1465 after calibration. It's not just Runco - pretty much all projectors are rated that way. Brightness also drops over time as the bulb ages.

"The X-400d projector shines over 2100 ANSI lumens (uncalibrated), is optimized for contrast with a contrast ratio of over 10,000:1 and can deliver 52 fL of brightness when calibrated."

Are you familiar with projector centrals lens calculator? http://www.projectorcentral.com/projection-calculator-pro.cfm

They use the manufacture specs, but you can adjust the overall light level to compensate for other things by factoring it into the screen gain.

 

 

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post #22 of 374 Old 02-03-2013, 06:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabident View Post

I checked the site since I was curious for myself. It says 2100 lumens for the X400 as well. The 52fL claim is dubious without listing a screen size. Normally calibrated lumens go down. Projector central reviewed the LS10 when it came out. Specs said 2100 lumens (uncalibrated), they measured 1800, and got 1465 after calibration. It's not just Runco - pretty much all projectors are rated that way. Brightness also drops over time as the bulb ages.

"The X-400d projector shines over 2100 ANSI lumens (uncalibrated), is optimized for contrast with a contrast ratio of over 10,000:1 and can deliver 52 fL of brightness when calibrated."

Are you familiar with projector centrals lens calculator? http://www.projectorcentral.com/projection-calculator-pro.cfm

They use the manufacture specs, but you can adjust the overall light level to compensate for other things by factoring it into the screen gain.

Yeah, it's unfortunate that specs are always so inflated. I am familiar witht the calculator, the x4 actually shows about 14ftl on a 190" screen, with 1.0gain and a throw of 30'8", which would be perfect foor me. All specs are with the proteus 3 lens.

With regard t the chips, I can't find any info on the x400, I will have to ask my buddy on Tuesday I guess. Does anyone have any experience with DPI equivalently priced models vs the Runcos?? The sim2 acutally measures much less brightness than the Runcos (the lumis 3d solo)
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post #23 of 374 Old 02-03-2013, 07:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by donaldk View Post

They are put in at several Berlinale venues, the festival starts on the 7th, but you know Barco on prices, not very public;-). http://www.dcinematoday.com/dc/pr.aspx?newsID=3113



Thanks D.smile.gif



Jim
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post #24 of 374 Old 02-03-2013, 07:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post

From what I can tell, the Barco dp2k-10sx is mid $30k range. It will have plenty of light, but I have no experience with image quality of Barco pjs. Will these show a top quality image as well, or just put out lots of light?? Please excuse the simple question, I just don't really know about any pjs outside of the main stream JVC, Sony etc.

I haven't seen the new Barco 2K, but I have seen both models of the Barco 4K commercial projectors at the Cinemark, Mesa, Az, and they perform wonderfully, plenty of light output even on 3D movies and outstanding picture quality!

"Doug Winsor" used to troll at some AV Forums as "Steve Bruzonsky"! My home theater at:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1158431
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post #25 of 374 Old 02-03-2013, 01:54 PM
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Let's not forget that Runco can offer those discounts because it puts a premium on its MSRPs. Will have to wait and see how much it will charge for the new Planar 84" 4K LCD, compared to the '(well) below $30K' at Planar.

And the spec inflation is much less at the Big boys (Barco, Christie, NEC DCi, DPI, Sony DCi, and even the Big Panasonics) than with the (low end) consumer projectors.

The small Barco is/will be avalaible without the integrated DCi server IMB as the dp2k-10s, so that should save a bit if you don't have access to DCi content that requires the secure playout.
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post #26 of 374 Old 02-03-2013, 02:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post

I haven't seen the new Barco 2K, but I have seen both models of the Barco 4K commercial projectors at the Cinemark, Mesa, Az, and they perform wonderfully, plenty of light output even on 3D movies and outstanding picture quality!

Thank you for the insight! I have read many good things abouut Barco units, just have never had any experience,
Quote:
Originally Posted by donaldk View Post

Let's not forget that Runco can offer those discounts because it puts a premium on its MSRPs. Will have to wait and see how much it will charge for the new Planar 84" 4K LCD, compared to the '(well) below $30K' at Planar.

Most of the "high end" units do have big mark up, not just Runco...not saying that its good, but true. I can be into the x400d with a lens for under $30k. I know the msrp is inflated, but based on the number of Pjs for less $ that can put out the smae kind of light and pq(not many), I'd say its close to fair at the street price I'd be getting. If someone has a suggestion that would be better at similar pricing, I'm all ears smile.gif.
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post #27 of 374 Old 02-03-2013, 06:22 PM
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The manual states it offers only 1400 lumens calibrated, isn't that seriously lacking for use with a five meter wide screen?
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post #28 of 374 Old 02-03-2013, 07:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by donaldk View Post

The manual states it offers only 1400 lumens calibrated, isn't that seriously lacking for use with a five meter wide screen?
I'm not sure to be honest with you, I don't know nearly enough yet to make a judgement. I wa going strictly by the projector calc pro.
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post #29 of 374 Old 02-04-2013, 06:33 AM
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Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post

The sim2 specs look good and the price tag is managable. The only thing that concerns me is that my local sim2 dealer actually says there are reliability issues with sim2. I know they are pretty well regarded around here, and every brand of product can have problems, but I would love to hear some other sim2 experiences.

I've owned a number of different SIM2 models over the years and most have been trouble free. I had a power supply go once and they took care of it under warranty and without delay. If a dealer says that a brand he sells has reliability issues, then it's likely he isn't really a dealer. When was the last time you heard a car dealer say that a particular brand he carries "isn't reliable". That sounds like code for "I want to sell you another brand". He may have sold some in the past and may have had an issue or two, but the question I would ask of him is how recently did he sell a SIM2 projector that had "issues", and how promptly did the company respond? Every projector manufacture will have some units that break, but how efficiently and graciously they take care of the problem is the real issue. Someone like a SIM2 or Runco are going to be able to turn on a dime with real people at the other end of the line as opposed to some of the giant faceless brands that crank out thousands of less expensive units that cut corners to achieve a popular price point.
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post #30 of 374 Old 02-04-2013, 07:51 AM - Thread Starter
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I've owned a number of different SIM2 models over the years and most have been trouble free. I had a power supply go once and they took care of it under warranty and without delay. If a dealer says that a brand he sells has reliability issues, then it's likely he isn't really a dealer. When was the last time you heard a car dealer say that a particular brand he carries "isn't reliable". That sounds like code for "I want to sell you another brand". He may have sold some in the past and may have had an issue or two, but the question I would ask of him is how recently did he sell a SIM2 projector that had "issues", and how promptly did the company respond? Every projector manufacture will have some units that break, but how efficiently and graciously they take care of the problem is the real issue. Someone like a SIM2 or Runco are going to be able to turn on a dime with real people at the other end of the line as opposed to some of the giant faceless brands that crank out thousands of less expensive units that cut corners to achieve a popular price point.

Very insightfull Pete, thank you. He does push the JVC units, noting that they are so good, that unless someone has an enormous screen he doesn't recommend anything else. He had two sims in the shop while I was there that were sitting because something had broken in them and the cost to repair was too high. They must ahve been older units, I'm not sure, but if out of warranty, I'm sure they were. The problem for me is that none of the shops have the high end units on display. Even my buddy with Runco, the best he has at the shop is a used VX8 and the new lower end led model. I hate to make a purchase like this without getting to see the performance first.
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