Wanted to get some of your opinions on some of the best processors available today. Current budget is up to $25k retail. Room correction is a preference but an external eq (like Trinnov or Anti-Mode) is an option.
I've included a voting poll as well for processors I've auditioned or are widely considered as high end by most members in this forum. Please include a comment with your vote if possible.
This is sort of the crux of things, or perhaps more broadly, what does $20k get you?
We'll all have different reasons - for me, I need to know
- the native sound quality is remarkably better than the $3-6k range of processors out there.
- that Dirac Live is remarkably better than Audeyssy Pro
- that Datasat is in this for the long haul (and this is a tough question to have a secure answer, but it's important. Developing a qualified dealer channel is difficult, getting mindshare amongst all the established players and the marketplace is not easy - do they pull out in 12-18 months? Are they investing in the channel adequately? The two demo's I've heard were far from rock solid setups, (though I reserve final judgment...)
- that the upgradability is real and will not hose you. The few devices in the past that claimed upgradability either never fulfilled that promise, or were unnecessarily expensive (how much was the Theta HDMI upgrade? $5-7k? Not sure...) I know the True HD card, with other performance enhancements is coming free of chrage, and that's great, though that's one that had to be there just to get to feature parity with the competition and that cost was probably baked in.
- that one will be able to own and run Dirac Live and not need a PhD to get it right.
Anyway, I'm not here to poo poo the RS20 - conversely, I've already invested quite a bit of time to demo it, with Tony, and hope give it another shot if the right opportunity arises It is intriguing. I know for some people, $15-20k is like $1500-$2000, so these questions are probably not of keep interest. But my philosophy is regardless of what I can afford, it has be worth it.
BTW, there are no published performance specs on the Datasat?
Any specific reason for not considering the Krell S-1200? Supposed to be a descendant of the 707, and should be on par with the Classe SSP-800 you had and the Bryston SP3 you are about to get. Just curious, as I'm debating between the Krell, Bryston and Classe myself (although I am much more driven by 2 channel and multi-channel music than movies).
My sort of thinking. I'm interested in the votes of those that tried at least two different *room correction* capable units (Datasat, TacT, Meridian, Trinnov, Synthesis,...). If the Datasat is the first/only unit with room correction you've tried, your vote does not count because comparing a unit with room correction to one without is like comparing apples to oranges IMHO
Do people here believe the room correction algorithms are the only thing separating these processors?
Room correction should be the icing on the cake of a good theater, not the starting point. 99% of people will see a better sound quality return from a 5K processor and 12K of room treatment than a 17K processor with Dirac. If your room isn't basically flat in the bass with low modal ringing and no speaker boundary interference nulls then you should be treating first, not room correcting. I'm probably preaching to the converted here, but apart from Japan Dave I haven't seen many acoustical measurements!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyal Mellor /t/1459947/best-surround-processor-currently-available/30#post_23015495
Do people here believe the room correction algorithms are the only thing separating these processors?
Room correction should be the icing on the cake of a good theater, not the starting point. 99% of people will see a better sound quality return from a 5K processor and 12K of room treatment than a 17K processor with Dirac. If your room isn't basically flat in the bass with low modal ringing and no speaker boundary interference nulls then you should be treating first, not room correcting. I'm probably preaching to the converted here, but apart from Japan Dave I haven't seen many acoustical measurements!
But I think it's a fairly important factor. Most people do not or cannot have properly acoustically treated spaces, and I have been in my fair share of dedicated theaters that have issues as well.
I'm aware that room correction is not superior to proper acoustical design and treatment of a room. But for the vast majority that don't have that kind of space, good room correction can help mitigate many issues. So to determine if Dirwc Live is appreciably better or just similar to Audyssey Pro, for example, can help many of us develop some context.
Ultimate, I have to hear for myself, though I've tried twice already...
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrang /t/1459947/best-surround-processor-currently-available/30#post_23014980
This is sort of the crux of things, or perhaps more broadly, what does $20k get you?
We'll all have different reasons - for me, I need to know
- the native sound quality is remarkably better than the $3-6k range of processors out there.
- that Dirac Live is remarkably better than Audeyssy Pro
I am using the 2 channel version of DiracLive in my PC music server. Until tomorrow, I am going through my Integra (with Audyssey off) for listening. I can then turn off DiracLive and turn on Audyssey (Pro) and compare. I am only listening in 2 channel. While there may be differences, they are not HUGE (or too use your expression "remarkably better"). I have just begun doing the comparison so I will be doing a lot more listening.
While I am in no position to say that one SSP is better than the other, what I can experientially state is that once the movie starts, detecting difference in two SSP's, both running some form of time based room correction, is orders of magnitude more difficult than hearing differences in two well built stereo preamps. There are SO many variables: steering algorithms; speaker distance calculations; exact trim settings for each speaker; crossover type, etc.
I have said this numerous times before. I am not looking for another SSP with a better room correction algorithm , or marginally better DACs. I want something transformational -- like the demonstrated but terminated Lexicon processor. When someone can provide that kind of differentiation, I will be all over it (unless it is astronomically priced).
The Anti-mode is quite an amazing piece. An audio buddy has a very similar set-up as mine with the same speakers, Mcintosh XR200s and he uses a Mcintosh MC402 amp. I use Mcintosh MC501s. A couple of weeks back we inserted my Theta Gen VIII S3 dac into his system. I was skeptical that there would be a huge improvement. There was a huge improvement. I typically go to considerable extremes to treat my room and to have proper seating placement. I'm not so sure I would benefit as greatly from the product. However, for the typical enthusiast, I would say the product represents the greatest value in audio, I have ever witnessed. It's amazing the effect it had when inserted into his system. Personally, I am recommending it to all of my audio buddies.
I voted other for processor. While I am a long time Theta user and plan to continue to be so because of the price of upgrades, sound quality and ability to integrate with the Gen VIII dac, if I were buying now however it would be Meridian. I have not heard the 861v6 but have quite a bit of experience with Meridian processors and about three days "hands on" with the 861v4. A couple of Casablanca owners have switched to Meridian 861v6 citing better sound than a CB3 with Xtreme dacs. I'm still not sure that the reason for the better sound ut I suspect is because the older firmware was limiting the Casablanca to 48/16. It could be different with the latest firmware which is almost certainly 24 bit. Still, Theta needs to catch up with new dacs and processing to be able to compete with what Meridian is currently doing. I see continued improvement on the part of Meridian and promise on the part of Theta. Meridian, has always been a "power house," in the development of digital products. They are currently making the kind of improvements I like to see in a truly audiophile oriented processor. Is it perfect? No. I'd like to see more sophisticated room correction. I"m not that impressed with what I heard in the 861v4. It's OK. room correction. Anti-mode, however, has changed the game in that department for 500 bucks a channel and it's so damn easy to use.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffkad /t/1459947/best-surround-processor-currently-available/30#post_23015165
Any specific reason for not considering the Krell S-1200? Supposed to be a descendant of the 707, and should be on par with the Classe SSP-800 you had and the Bryston SP3 you are about to get. Just curious, as I'm debating between the Krell, Bryston and Classe myself (although I am much more driven by 2 channel and multi-channel music than movies).
Krell's future is a bit uncertain in my opinion. It was a consideration (The 707) but they have me worried. Not sure if they are a company that will be around long term. I could be wrong about as it's just my opinion. Their dealer network is not what it used to be and that's usually a sign.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani /t/1459947/best-surround-processor-currently-available/50_50#post_23014863
Noah, I think Nick is talking about the Datasat platform (hardware), not Dirac room correction (software). So even if you take away Dirac as a feature, he seems to feel that the RS20i has lots of processing capability (raw DSP horsepower). And "processing" might not mean surround processing specifically. However, if he is talking about some other processing, then (like you) I too would be curious to know what it is. After all, having lots of processing ability on tap isn't beneficial unless you do something interesting or unique with it.
Yes, I just mean as Sdurani states. The way it handles various codecs, steering etc. I have never been a fan of dts neo 6 until I used it on this. To me, it sounds way better than pl2x on the crm4. Whereas the crm4 using neo6 sounds really flat.
Can not wait to hear the pl2 encodings on the rs20i.
Also the stereo performance for music, be it a digital source or analogue, IMO, is better sounding than that of the trinnov mc when used as a preamp.
I thought I would miss the quad bypass of the crm4 as that is what I used when listening to ambient music etc. but with the rs20i plain stereo sounds amazingly spacial, massive sound stage and beautifully detailed and controlled. The dacs, IMO, are on a par with that of my linn klimax control that I had for a while.
Also, when I had the crm4 with trinnov and my linn akurate ds I preferred the sound via the linn dacs, ie, the analogue outs. But with the datasat I like to use the coax using the datasat dacs. Taking into account the increased jitter on this route the sound quality is quite a lot better.
That wouldn't be due to "processing ability", since it is the same Neo:6 licensed to other gear, even the lowest priced receivers (unless you believe that DTS reserves a special version of Neo:6 that they only license to the RS20i). Keep in mind that Neo:6 technology is over a dozen years old, so it doesn't need a lot of DSP horsepower to run.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrang /t/1459947/best-surround-processor-currently-available/30#post_23015572
No, not the only thing at all
But I think it's a fairly important factor. Most people do not or cannot have properly acoustically treated spaces, and I have been in my fair share of dedicated theaters that have issues as well.
I'm aware that room correction is not superior to proper acoustical design and treatment of a room. But for the vast majority that don't have that kind of space, good room correction can help mitigate many issues. So to determine if Dirwc Live is appreciably better or just similar to Audyssey Pro, for example, can help many of us develop some context.
Ultimate, I have to hear for myself, though I've tried twice already...
I've heard DataSat RS20i twice, both at trade show demos, I was not impressed by either demo unfortunately. In the first demo I didn't think the loudspeakers were up to much, and the subs sounded boomy despite the room correction. In the second demo I know the speakers well and they can sound very good, and so it must have been either the room acoustics or the room correction, neither of which was doing anything positive. But I keep an open mind, and I don't think one can rely too much on trade show demos.
Seems Dirac is flavor of the month around here! I would hope it is better than Audyssey. I would not let that thing near a 'high performance' system.
Yeah.. I'm not getting the DIRAC thing either. I'm in the market for room correction and Trinnov will be my choice - in part because it is mature and well documented excellence yet the DIRAC thread seems like a disaster of bugs and issues in doing the simplest things. Too beta and not necessarily from some great pedigree either.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland /t/1459947/best-surround-processor-currently-available/60#post_23019448
Yeah.. I'm not getting the DIRAC thing either. I'm in the market for room correction and Trinnov will be my choice - in part because it is mature and well documented excellence yet the DIRAC thread seems like a disaster of bugs and issues in doing the simplest things. Too beta and not necessarily from some great pedigree either.
Kind of my thinking, but was willing to give it a shot - but between the two demos Tony and I saw, and Nyal's comments of his two demos, seems kind of hard to get blown away with this $18k box. Still remain open minded, but the door is closing...
Trinnov is very interesting to me, though I hope they expand their licensing since I'm not in the market for a $40k ADA, or even $15k for room correction device. I don't understand what Trinnov's consumer/prosumer go-to-market strategy is yet...
Nothing to get. It's room correction, nothing more complicated than that. It was one of the main differentiators when Datasat originally decided to market their commercial cinema processor to consumers. Since then, Dirac has released a software version for HTPCs and ATI has licensed it for their Theta and B&K brands.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland /t/1459947/best-surround-processor-currently-available/60#post_23019448
I'm in the market for room correction and Trinnov will be my choice - in part because it is mature and well documented excellence yet the DIRAC thread seems like a disaster of bugs and issues in doing the simplest things.
Let's not conflate Dirac room correction with the hardware it is implemented in. That would be like reading the Sherwood 972 thread and calling Trinnov a "disaster of bugs".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyal Mellor /t/1459947/best-surround-processor-currently-available/60#post_23019378
In the second demo I know the speakers well and they can sound very good, and so it must have been either the room acoustics or the room correction, neither of which was doing anything positive. But I keep an open mind...
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrang /t/1459947/best-surround-processor-currently-available/60#post_23019523
Kind of my thinking, but was willing to give it a shot - but between the two demos Tony and I saw, and Nyal's comments of his two demos, seems kind of hard to get blown away with this $18k box. Still remain open minded, but the door is closing...
Trinnov is very interesting to me, though I hope they expand their licensing since I'm not in the market for a $40k ADA, or even $15k for room correction along. I don't understand what Trinnov's consumer/prosumer go-to-market strategy is yet...
If you are in the market for a high end pre-pro and have $$$ for a ADA, Trinnov MC or DataSat I'd look very carefully at your room acoustics before dropping the money. I would guess most people would see a more substantial sound quality improvement for the same or less money by adding / redoing acoustic treatment, adding more subs and using a parametric EQ for the
Yes I will be trying it out, that's one of the main reasons I did the HTPC project. Acourate, Dirac and AudioLense are on the list to try out.
The HTPC is built and is running well in 2 channel mode with Jriver. It sounds just as good if not slightly better than my Mac Mini running Pure Music which is an encouraging starting point.
I'm waiting on a custom AES digital cable to go between the Lynx and a Metric Halo LIO8 (I hate soldering DB25s so I got someone else to make it for me) before I can get it working in multi-channel. It was more straightforward to get JRiver up and running with blu-ray playing and decoding at high resolution than I would have thought and the DSP flexibility in JRiver is quite amazing. I'm pretty excited to see what it sounds like.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyal Mellor /t/1459947/best-surround-processor-currently-available/60#post_23019636
If you are in the market for a high end pre-pro and have $$$ for a ADA, Trinnov MC or DataSat I'd look very carefully at your room acoustics before dropping the money. I would guess most people would see a more substantial sound quality improvement for the same or less money by adding / redoing acoustic treatment, adding more subs and using a parametric EQ for the
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyal Mellor /t/1459947/best-surround-processor-currently-available/60#post_23019668
Yes I will be trying it out, that's one of the main reasons I did the HTPC project. Acourate, Dirac and AudioLense are on the list to try out.
The HTPC is built and is running well in 2 channel mode with Jriver. It sounds just as good if not slightly better than my Mac Mini running Pure Music which is an encouraging starting point.
That is encouraging. 2-channel mode should be enough to make comparisons between the various room correction suites (probably easier to hear differences than in multi-channel mode).
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani /t/1459947/best-surround-processor-currently-available/60#post_23019585
Nothing to get. It's room correction, nothing more complicated than that. It was one of the main differentiators when Datasat originally decided to market their commercial cinema processor to consumers. Since then, Dirac has released a software version for HTPCs and ATI has licensed it for their Theta and B&K brands.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani /t/1459947/best-surround-processor-currently-available/60#post_23019585
Let's not conflate Dirac room correction with the hardware it is implemented in. That would be like reading the Sherwood 972 thread and calling Trinnov a "disaster of bugs".
I think conflating is in order here as the thread is about SSPs and the Datasat piece is on the only SSP with DIRAC. So, though DIRAC may be competent, the Datasat SSP implementation appears to be very, very beta.
I have to respectfully disagree with you on both points.
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