My 60" Pioneer elite 151is still a jewel to behold, but what now with 4k on the horizon? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 16 Old 05-28-2013, 02:34 AM - Thread Starter
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I bought the last of the Pioneer Elite televisions in 2009, I've been in heaven, especially after calibration by a licensed isf artist. Question is, I and all of my Pioneer Elite brethren are in the same boat, something off in the distance tantalizing us with the promise of something even better, maybe. There is more to a great television picture than just pixels, but its a start. I know I am not alone in wondering what is going to become of us all, those with what has been the pinnacle of viewing nirvana and now the promise of 4k tv. I have an extensive movie collection of dvd and a growing blu ray collection as well. I started out with a large vhs, and super vhs movie collection, graduated to Laser disc, had a few hundred of those, always staying on top of what was available at the time. I am retired, and not young enough to survive another collection replacement attempt. I am upgraded out, done, finished, I give up, I quit. I would love to jump into another game of, wow, aint this great, but right now my movie presentation at home is better than what I see at the movie theaters, rarely go anymore, saw the new star trek movie last week, into darkness, sound was horrible compared to my state of the art audio system.
I am starting this thread which I rarely do anymore, but it would simply get lost in some of these huge threads that go nowhere and I specifically wanted to hear from more people like me, upgraded to death, too many times, what's a mother to do.
Are the compulsive people here like me going to do it all over again, or has time run out on you as well?
Sporting events are nice in 1080P, but movies have always been grainy or less than pure and yet people still use them as the ultimate reference, and I don't know why. Film is not, nor ever has been a high quality source in my opinion, I would love to hear some collective thoughts from my fellow absurdists, that's what my wife thinks at least.
It looks like I will be sinking to the bottom of the home theater pool of happy campers, not really, but dam, my 60" pioneer can still produce stunning images and inky blacks that are sometimes plain spooky to watch, especially the end credits of movies while I wonder to myself, will I somehow be sucked into the black milky void that has been created on my television. I can totally recall the first time I was ever given a proper demonstration of the pioneer kuro sets back in 2006, my god I wanted one and didn't bat an eye when I was able to purchase a retail $7500 Elite set (Best Buy pricing) online for $4600 delivered,, oh lucky me. I was coming from a Sony LCOS set, second best in its day, but you gotta do what you've got to do.
So please, let me hear your thoughts on the new 4k tv concept?????
Keith

when you always do what you've alway done, you always get what you always got.
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post #2 of 16 Old 05-28-2013, 07:14 AM
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I have the same set as well and was contemplating the 55" Sony 4k.

I would like to see it with Direct TV etc instead of the DVD they play with it in the stores so I can see how it looks with over the air content. The settings on the one that I saw at Best Buy were jacked up as usual and the colors looked radioactive.

It also doesn't come as a monitor.
Ken
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post #3 of 16 Old 05-28-2013, 07:14 AM
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I'd probably stay put until OLED drops. Your TV will likely look better overall than many of the early LCD edge lit models that are being made for 4k. At least hold off until the new HDMI comes out and we have true 4k content.
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post #4 of 16 Old 06-04-2013, 09:28 AM
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I have started a similar thread as I have the same set as well. Never really gets off the ground with much advice. I think only now are even remotely close to KURO competitors.

I have my eye on the 84" Sony 4K but haven't been able to see one in person yet. I'd really like a high-end set in the 70"-75" range at $10k or so, but nothing really tempting out yet.
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post #5 of 16 Old 06-04-2013, 04:07 PM
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The big issue is going to be when all our Pioneer Kuros start dimming or going out completely from all the hours. My 151 got installed in mid 2008 so after 5 years I'm guessing I'm approaching 5000 hours on it. No idea how many hours they are supposed to last.
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post #6 of 16 Old 06-09-2013, 01:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ktrdsl23 View Post

The big issue is going to be when all our Pioneer Kuros start dimming or going out completely from all the hours. My 151 got installed in mid 2008 so after 5 years I'm guessing I'm approaching 5000 hours on it. No idea how many hours they are supposed to last.

You remind me that I should check hours too. I recall a back door to the timer. Can anyone confirm that?
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post #7 of 16 Old 06-10-2013, 05:17 AM
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I still love my PRO-150. For me it's OLED or nothing as a replacement at this point, no current plasma or LCD comes close to my 150 at least not that I have personally seen. The only things to better it would be the 151 and 141 smile.gif To this day I still hate LCD's with a passion.

Until 4k becomes a reality i.e. either incorporated into the Blu-ray spec and we start seeing 4K Blu-ray movies or it gets a disc format of it's own my 150 is staying put. No point in getting a new tv that is basically nothing more than an upscaler at this point.

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post #8 of 16 Old 06-10-2013, 08:25 AM
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I wouldn't think about replacing it unless it breaks, until 4K OLED has been available for a couple of years, or unless you are thinking of moving to a projector. Pretty much all the current 4K TV offerings are junk.
For a start, few have BT.2020 support, and most are limited to 30Hz. And they're pretty much all Edge LED, which is a significant step backwards from your Kuro in a lot of ways.

I can't seem to find a spec sheet with the projected lifetime of the panel, but Plasmas around that age were ~50,000 hours to half brightness. So if you are at 5,000 hours, I wouldn't be too concerned.
I seem to recall reference level brightness being achieved at much lower than 50% contrast on the Kuros, so even once it hits 50,000 hours, you should still have enough headroom to increase the contrast to maintain reference brightness.
Quote:
Originally Posted by keithhr View Post

Sporting events are nice in 1080P, but movies have always been grainy or less than pure and yet people still use them as the ultimate reference, and I don't know why. Film is not, nor ever has been a high quality source in my opinion, I would love to hear some collective thoughts from my fellow absurdists, that's what my wife thinks at least.
Film grain is not the same thing as picture noise, and the Kuros themselves are inherently noisy sets. (a side effect of how both Plasmas work, and how Pioneer achieved those deep black levels)
A well mastered Blu-ray is absolutely the closest thing available to a reference quality image - but a reference quality image is not boosted in a way that is supposed to "wow" you (most TVs have controls that can do that, if that's what you want) it's supposed to present a very natural looking picture.


Can you see the grid structure of the display from where you normally sit? Can you make out individual pixels? If not, then 4K resolution probably doesn't offer much benefit for you - at least not until we have BT.2020 content and displays. (more vivid and realistic colors)
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post #9 of 16 Old 06-10-2013, 11:40 PM
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I figure I might as well post another thought from a different direction.

More likely than not you're noticing plasma dithering. I 100% love plasmas and have owned 2, but plasma dithering can make it look less sharp which can be confused with resolution.

4K will do nothing for you at all I'm 100% positive.

You're best bet is to wait for OLED. Now if there is a $5,000 60" 1080p OLED and a $10,000 60" 4K OLED and the image quality is nearly identical, I'd go with the 1080p version. 4K is fun and exciting, but paying a large premium for it will get you no where. Now if a 60" 1080p oled costs $5,000 and a 4k version costs $6,000 it might be fun to have it just because why not, but a large premium is pointless.

People should have the philosophy that if it comes with a great tv why not?

They'll do anything to sell new tech I mean come on the Oppo and other companies selling mainstream devices upscaling to 4k with no 4k tvs? They'll do anything to make a buck. That should tip you off right there.

Correct me if I'm wrong about plasma dithering.
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post #10 of 16 Old 06-27-2013, 03:08 AM
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Nice! score Keith. IME, nothing beats a Pioneer Elite plasma set.
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post #11 of 16 Old 07-06-2013, 09:13 AM
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I feel the same way about my pioneer. Just as I was finishing up my MBA during the height of the Great Recession I realized I had to own one of these TV's before they were discontinued. I was one of the lucky few that had signed a contract for a job upon graduation and thought it would be prudent to buy the 50" vs. the 60" ($3500 for a discontinued line during the recession still seems a bit ridiculous). Of course nobody knew how the world would have turned out post recession but if I knew what I knew now I would have splurged for the 60" (which I think was still going for $5000). If I had the 60" I don't think I'd have this urge to buy something new. I still find the PQ of this TV just beautiful. However, when I watch 2:35 content there are times in the room I wish I had a 60"+ TV (I sit about 10 feet away). The lack of good black levels until this year has made me OK with my decision but now even the Panny VT60 has me wondering if I should get a new set. And then there is OLED and if there is a set that is sub-$6K and really delivers on PQ, I'm fairly sure I'll cave in.

Still nothing beats putting on a movie and not being able to tell the difference between the letterbox of the movie and the bezel.
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post #12 of 16 Old 07-07-2013, 08:22 PM
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One more opinion here. I've got two Pio 141's, a 111FD, two 151's and a 500M (I think it's a 500M). As noted by others here, all great displays, superb images, great Blacks, and I wouldn't trade any one of them for any other 1080p display currently on the market. A few weeks ago I picked up the new Sony 84" 4K. Blacks are not as good as any of the Pio displays I own, BUT, the 1080p scaling and processing is at a minimum as good as my 1080p displays, and in some respects better. I was also surprised at how good the Sony was handling motion, and gaming. I bought the display primarily for my kids media room (to keep them out of my theatre) and I knew good gaming performance was a must and the Sony does an excellent job with both lag and motion. I played a few Xbox games and came away very impressed with the performance. I know the conventional wisdom, and even the science, indicates the limits of the human eye render 4K almost meaningless at some distances, but I can say for certain that from 10' and closer (even tried 5'), there is an obvious benefit to the 4K displays (the 84" display). While true that there isn't much 4K content available at this point, Sony did provide us with a "4K media player" (their words), really a Dell PC with eleven 4K movies, a dozen or so 4K independent shorts, and about a dozen individual 4K photo slide shows. Fun to watch, look incredible, easily better than 1080p, does show off the TV's capabilities, but certainly not enough to justify the prices being asked for the average consumer.

Not sure why there are so many negative 4K comments, makes me wonder if some of these people have even seen these panels, or if they've seen them properly setup. Not liking the cost is one thing, talking 4K down for lack of content is also fair, but to say 4K has no value, is to not understand the potential of the technology IMO. I understand those that want to "wait" for OLED (seen it myself, superb color, other attributes, but NOT all that some think it is IMO, and I suspect pricing will be very high in the initial years of release). Other's also want to wait for additional 4K improvements (60, etc), and that's also fine, but as I posted elsewhere, personally I live in the now, not sure I'll be here tomorrow............


Jim
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post #13 of 16 Old 07-15-2013, 04:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigHat View Post

You remind me that I should check hours too. I recall a back door to the timer. Can anyone confirm that?

I'm looking for the same instructions on how to check the hours. Could someone with specific Kuro knowledge please chime in on the procedure?

Thank you
Kenreau
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post #14 of 16 Old 07-21-2013, 04:41 AM
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I also have a Kuro 9.5g panel and nothing can touch it. I just forget about everything and enjoy the pictures. I also have sony hx855 led and a samsung 7000 series led panel in other rooms and can't stand the samsung's oversharpened & over saturated colors. the sony is a bit better but nowhere near as natural as my beloved kuro.

I will wait until there is OLED 4k 3d by sony under 10k. probably a good 2 years away. i just hope my kuro doesn't give out by then...its starting to make some buzzing sounds at startup (which go away after about 10 sec).
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post #15 of 16 Old 07-23-2013, 04:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kenreau View Post

I'm looking for the same instructions on how to check the hours. Could someone with specific Kuro knowledge please chime in on the procedure?

Thank you
Kenreau

I believe you will need ControlCAL, unless you have a model with ethernet.
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post #16 of 16 Old 08-08-2013, 08:51 AM
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I will be holding on to my 2010 Runco 50" for several more years. It still has the best PQ I have ever seen for tv, dvd and bd.
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