why don't more people build high end speakers versus buying high end speakers? - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Baselworld is only a few weeks away. Getting the latest news is easy, Click Here for info on how to join the Watchuseek.com newsletter list. Follow our team for updates featuring event coverage, new product unveilings, watch industry news & more!


Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #61 of 78 Old 07-16-2013, 10:30 PM
MESSING WITH YOUR SENSES
 
CINERAMAX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: TOMORROWLAND: REALITY RECREATION PAVILION.
Posts: 15,139
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1002 Post(s)
Liked: 438
Send a message via Skype™ to CINERAMAX
About the Trinnov I am investigating....

What I have found that maybe I should not be reinventing the wheel with custom Kharma centre products, when wilson has everything I need already designed.

I am buying Peter McGrath lunch tomorrow to discuss this....



Dave Wilson's highly acclaimed new tweeter ( for which he investigated Diamonds and other exotics) can be ordered on all the speakers.
CINERAMAX is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #62 of 78 Old 07-17-2013, 12:09 AM
AVS Special Member
 
ifor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: La Quinta, CA
Posts: 2,595
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 58 Post(s)
Liked: 70
A tweeter or driver does not a great speaker make.
ifor is online now  
post #63 of 78 Old 07-17-2013, 01:08 AM
MESSING WITH YOUR SENSES
 
CINERAMAX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: TOMORROWLAND: REALITY RECREATION PAVILION.
Posts: 15,139
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1002 Post(s)
Liked: 438
Send a message via Skype™ to CINERAMAX
The Esotars, The Diamonds and the Convergent Synergy tweeter do make speakers sound great.

So it is a good starting point....

CINERAMAX is online now  
post #64 of 78 Old 07-17-2013, 02:38 PM
Senior Member
 
sipester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 381
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post

The Esotars, The Diamonds and the Convergent Synergy tweeter do make speakers sound great.

So it is a good starting point....


Wow! By my estimatation, that is over 4,200 pounds of "speaker" on the front wall, if you ever build a theater with this set-up, that must set some type of record!
sipester is offline  
post #65 of 78 Old 07-19-2013, 01:30 AM
MESSING WITH YOUR SENSES
 
CINERAMAX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: TOMORROWLAND: REALITY RECREATION PAVILION.
Posts: 15,139
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1002 Post(s)
Liked: 438
Send a message via Skype™ to CINERAMAX
Hello, yes these suckers are heavy.

The final array will likely look like this though.



As per ...

Well I was invited by Mr. Peter McGrath to listen to some of his fabulous recordings (on DSD and PCM) at his residence.

I had a chance to understand Wilsons approach to aligning the sound in time domain through: ASPHERICAL PROPAGATION DELAY .http://www.absolutesounds.com/pdf/main/press/HFNAlexandria_XLF10124web.pdf





As opposed to d'appolito.







Pleasantly surprised to see the MOMENTUM amps present. Amps these good take a lifetime of wisdom to be able to deliver. So warm so airy so detailed, strings so eerily accurate and none of the Krell zippyness...

As you know I am requisitioning 19 stripped down BLACK BOX rack mounted versions of these amps for system EUROPA.

CINERAMAX is online now  
post #66 of 78 Old 07-19-2013, 02:26 AM
MESSING WITH YOUR SENSES
 
CINERAMAX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: TOMORROWLAND: REALITY RECREATION PAVILION.
Posts: 15,139
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1002 Post(s)
Liked: 438
Send a message via Skype™ to CINERAMAX
So I met with Wilson in the afternoon, but you would not guess what happened that made it mandatory to go to Miami yesterday.

Where David Saltz explained that the benefits of having flat cables are in preserving signal fidelity in the longer cable runs. Something to do with magnetic fields...



Well the visit was prompted by an emergency at ALBIORIX.

This penthouse installation 9,215 kilometers away...









2 platinum starlight 20 meter hdmi cables NICKED!!!!!

That is right lower right corner, 2 of them....


At list price a $21,000 emergency!!!



CINERAMAX is online now  
post #67 of 78 Old 07-19-2013, 04:00 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
noah katz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Mountain View, CA USA
Posts: 21,278
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 703 Post(s)
Liked: 250
Quote:
Originally Posted by hifiaudio2 View Post

Even for far off center viewers, like the edge seats in a 5 wide array?

Don't know, haven't tried it

Noah
noah katz is offline  
post #68 of 78 Old 07-22-2013, 03:27 AM
Member
 
jeno's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 57
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)
Liked: 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post


Pleasantly surprised to see the MOMENTUM amps present. Amps these good take a lifetime of wisdom to be able to deliver. So warm so airy so detailed, strings so eerily accurate and none of the Krell zippyness...

As you know I am requisitioning 19 stripped down BLACK BOX rack mounted versions of these amps for system EUROPA.

Cool! One might think the looks were their main strength, but doing that and hide them away proves a point.
jeno is online now  
post #69 of 78 Old 02-10-2016, 10:30 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Mfusick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Western MA
Posts: 31,380
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 576 Post(s)
Liked: 2407
Quote:
Originally Posted by hevi View Post
Quote:Originally Posted by Tim Sorrentino 

Yes Maybe.

Can your active crossover account for the "step response of the baffle? How about out of band driver irregularities? (let alone if their are IN band ones)



I'll let you in on a little secret (or rather, let the active cross-over fans in on the truth)... even if you have perfect baffle correction/response, good drivers and what not, that is not enough to squeeze out the last bit of performance distortion wise from the speakers. Combining a well engineered analogue crossover tailored to the drivers used, will yield significantly lower distortion than using the same drivers actively crossed over...It all boils down to voltage to current translation and how the driver translates from predominantly spring-dominated frequency region to a mass dominated region... With a carefully designed PASSIVE crossover you can yield several dBs in distortion compared to an active crossover...
This is not making sense to me. It sounds more like something an old timer speaker designer would say to justify how he spent many years doing, rather than look objectively at the issue within modern technological achievements and advancements.

I would love to see some data showing what you say is true.

-

"Too much is almost enough. Anything in life worth doing is worth overdoing. Moderation is for cowards."
Mfusick is offline  
post #70 of 78 Old 02-12-2016, 09:00 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 218
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 132 Post(s)
Liked: 81
I am a big fan of the DIY community in audio in general


Many members of this community are awful quick to dismiss or marginalize the contributions of talented loudspeaker engineers, facilities, and experience.


I think DIY is a great option for some, and can make sense especially starting with a community vetted or cloned design. Loudspeaker design is not trival. There are some smart people who spend decades studying this art in extreme detail. I don't underestimate the ingenuity of hobbyists, but I also appreciate the sophistication of some professionals and companies.
aschen is offline  
post #71 of 78 Old 04-10-2016, 10:27 PM
AVS Special Member
 
michael hurd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,167
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 37 Post(s)
Liked: 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by aschen View Post
I am a big fan of the DIY community in audio in general


Many members of this community are awful quick to dismiss or marginalize the contributions of talented loudspeaker engineers, facilities, and experience.


I think DIY is a great option for some, and can make sense especially starting with a community vetted or cloned design. Loudspeaker design is not trival. There are some smart people who spend decades studying this art in extreme detail. I don't underestimate the ingenuity of hobbyists, but I also appreciate the sophistication of some professionals and companies.
Community vetted design or 'design' by community does not work. There are many people with personal views that do not understand all the science and compromise that is required to design a loudspeaker.

Acoustics in general, psychoacoustics, SBIR and weighting of direct and indirect sound, and the modal analysis, installation of absorption and diffusion elements in the room are all similar connected concepts.

Correlation does not equal causation, and the scientist must be able to make quantitative measurement.

Errors of frequency response are minor when it comes to the whole picture of speakers.

Smooth polar response is one of the most important considerations when it comes to loudspeaker design. A lazy susan, a tape measure, protractor, and about a hundred bucks or so will buy you a decent microphone, cables and soundcard.

REW is freeware, ARTA you have to pay for. In an afternoon with a helper, you can measure the horizontal and vertical frequency response at many different angles and plot sonograms.

I know, as I have done it. Large companies have automated turntables. It takes me longer to measure something, however the data is just as good.

Having met many industry professionals, I aver that a lot of the people that design and build speakers in their own spare time can competently put their creations up against large companies.

Transducer engineers can design fantastic products, however, once the company they work for reviews the design, they nickel and dime the once great design to 'take money out' of the design to maximize profits.

Many samples are created, altered and destroyed throughout the process.

Every loudspeaker design is a compromise, and to think otherwise is foolish.

What we are buying is horsepower, and to produce high sound pressure levels in a large area, there is no way of getting around the physics.

Nothing other than a horn will produce reference levels without running into distress in the high frequencies, having excessive combing / lobing ( multiple small tweeters on a baffle ) or experiencing modulation distortion from excessive diaphragm motion.

At low frequencies, it's easy enough to have multiple direct radiators within 1/4 wavelength so they are 'acoustically' one driver.

As Noah mentioned, Danley's Synergy horns are one way to skin the cat, with multiple drivers feeding a common horn, all located within 1/4 wavelength of each other.

You can have high sound pressure levels, great polar response, low AM and FM distortion, as well as low higher order harmonic distortion, minimize the effects of boundaries on the in room response of the loudspeaker, but only by using a properly designed horn.

Standing behind a loudspeaker during a test sweep in an anechoic chamber is a startling experience. With a long downward sweep starting at high frequencies,you can barely hear any sound at all, until the wavelengths become long enough, and sound 'wraps' around the cabinet.

It's one of those 'aha' moments. Acoustic size does matter, and for horns, the larger the better.

When designing a multi-way loudspeaker, you need to have a very good understanding of the principles of crossover design, as well as good measurements of the raw driver units.

I know analog crossover filter designers that extol the virtues of their design on paper but in the real world, suck. An active crossover removes reactive and capacitive elements from a loudspeaker design.

Iron core coils can saturate under heavy power, and air core coils can be prohibitively large and expensive. Coils must be placed far enough apart, or stacked at 90 degrees to one another.

Reading books and theory doesn't prepare you for the real world of getting your hands dirty and the school of hard knocks.

Ever watch the TV show 'Pros vs. Joes'? Most of the time the Pros win, but I aver that some of the 'Joes' that build speakers in their spare time would mop the floor with some of the 'Pros'.

"What the heck was that crashing noise?" Me: "oh, just tossed the shampoo bottles off the shelf on the opposite side of the house. "
michael hurd is offline  
post #72 of 78 Old 04-11-2016, 08:19 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 218
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 132 Post(s)
Liked: 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by michael hurd View Post
some of the 'Joes' that build speakers in their spare time would mop the floor with some of the 'Pros'.
Some surely would, many likely wouldn't, especially if there is a measure of fit and finish accounted for.


I have no doubt there are many talented DIY builders who achieve great results. I also know that companies like revel, Kef, dynaudio, B&W, Etc have alot of engineering resources, facilities, test equipment, and stores of historic data to help with their development process. Sometimes the DIY community is a bit dismissive of the utility of these things, was my only point.
aschen is offline  
post #73 of 78 Old 04-11-2016, 08:50 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Glimmie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 8,929
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 619 Post(s)
Liked: 508
Quote:
Originally Posted by michael hurd View Post
......I know analog crossover filter designers that extol the virtues of their design on paper but in the real world, suck. An active crossover removes reactive and capacitive elements from a loudspeaker design. .....
Well said! Especially in today's world of low cost DSP engines. It's basic electronic filter engineering and audio is no exception. To have a good filter, you must have a stable impedance across the frequency range of interest. Cone drivers are rather poor in this regard.
Glimmie is offline  
post #74 of 78 Old 04-11-2016, 09:15 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
thebland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Detroit, Michigan USA
Posts: 25,964
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1028 Post(s)
Liked: 506
Time. You can buy speakers. Can't buy time. Especially in an Atmos world of 10-20 speakers!!

It's back!! Wine of the Week! Clos Martinet Tinto, Priorat DOCa, Spain ~$60. If you've not had a good Priorat, you've not truly tried Spain's smallest, yet most unique terroir.
My Home Theater of the Month- Le Petit Trianon
thebland is offline  
post #75 of 78 Old 04-11-2016, 09:37 AM
AVS Special Member
 
michael hurd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,167
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 37 Post(s)
Liked: 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post
Time. You can buy speakers. Can't buy time. Especially in an Atmos world of 10-20 speakers!!
True, you can't buy time, and it takes time, money and effort to delve deeply into the world of audio.

If you can put together a simple flat pack, solder components together, there are competent kits put together for the end user to manufacture their own set of loudspeakers from a design that has been proven.

Finishing the enclosures can be farmed out to a pro, if you so desire.

This is a stepping stone in getting your feet wet, and can lead to other, more expensive hobbies such as woodworking.

"What the heck was that crashing noise?" Me: "oh, just tossed the shampoo bottles off the shelf on the opposite side of the house. "
michael hurd is offline  
post #76 of 78 Old 04-11-2016, 10:12 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Glimmie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 8,929
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 619 Post(s)
Liked: 508
Quote:
Originally Posted by michael hurd View Post
Finishing the enclosures can be farmed out to a pro, if you so desire.

This is a stepping stone in getting your feet wet, and can lead to other, more expensive hobbies such as woodworking.
Good point. My speakers are all behind soffits and panels. Two coats of eggshell black paint is all I need. And the wood (actually MDF) finishing quality can be relaxed as well.

But, there are also people who enjoy the challenge of building fine furniture and finishing the speaker cabinet might be the highlight of the project.

And it's not strictly a cost issue either. You can easily spend tens of thousands on professional shop tools required to make an elaborate speaker cabinet if you desire.

To each their own!
Glimmie is offline  
post #77 of 78 Old 04-11-2016, 11:43 AM
AVS Special Member
 
michael hurd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,167
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 37 Post(s)
Liked: 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glimmie View Post
Good point. My speakers are all behind soffits and panels. Two coats of eggshell black paint is all I need. And the wood (actually MDF) finishing quality can be relaxed as well.

But, there are also people who enjoy the challenge of building fine furniture and finishing the speaker cabinet might be the highlight of the project.

And it's not strictly a cost issue either. You can easily spend tens of thousands on professional shop tools required to make an elaborate speaker cabinet if you desire.

To each their own!
Yes you can easily spend a lot of money foolishly, but you need nothing more exotic than a few clamps, a decent circular saw with a long straight edge, a plunge router with a straight bit, perhaps a roundover bit and glue.

There are plenty of examples of fine quality work done without exotic tools, simple homemade jigs can make many repetitive cuts exact.

"What the heck was that crashing noise?" Me: "oh, just tossed the shampoo bottles off the shelf on the opposite side of the house. "
michael hurd is offline  
post #78 of 78 Old 04-11-2016, 04:10 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Glimmie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 8,929
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 619 Post(s)
Liked: 508
Quote:
Originally Posted by michael hurd View Post
There are plenty of examples of fine quality work done without exotic tools, simple homemade jigs can make many repetitive cuts exact.
Well yes, that's quite true. My father was an active antique collector. We had a room full 300yr old furniture where designs were in-layed with different wood varieties - all by hand! The inlay was so good you would swear it was painted on.
Glimmie is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Ultra Hi-End HT Gear ($20,000+)

taboola here


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off