Going from Sony 4k projector to DPI 1080p DLP ...am I likely to see screen door / pixels? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 23 Old 07-12-2013, 12:21 PM - Thread Starter
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On my current Sony with my 160" wide EN4k screen, there is no chance that I can ever make out a pixel, even standing at the screen. I am worried that as I move to a 3 chip DLP in an effort to get an order of magnitude more brightness, I could end up seeing the pixels, given the lower resolution, lesser pixel fill ratio than SXRD, much greater brightness, and inherently slightly sharper image of DLP .

Valid concern or no?

My eyes are 12'4" from the screen. I do NOT have an anamorphic lens, nor plan to get one.

The DLP in question is the DPI Highlite 660 3d.
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post #2 of 23 Old 07-12-2013, 04:59 PM
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post #3 of 23 Old 07-12-2013, 09:22 PM
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I believe, at your viewing distance ,you are right at the point where one can see pixel structure with DLP with near perfect vision.
The jump in picture quality, however, from the Sony you have will more than offset this issue
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post #4 of 23 Old 07-12-2013, 10:01 PM - Thread Starter
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So if I could possibly see the structure, how does that not take one out of the movie? I would think that would be a big detractor?

I am having a tough time with this decision. Despite the fact that I need so much more brightness to make 3d enjoyable (I want 12-15ftL in 3d), I still love the picture in 2d that this Sony throws. It is just so detailed without being processed looking. So natural.

What do you see as some of the other quality improvements I will get?

And thanks a ton for your and anyone else's input. This decision is hard! Especially without really being able to see this projector first.
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post #5 of 23 Old 07-13-2013, 06:44 AM
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Color, sharpness,intrascene contrast, light output will all be big jumps over the Sony. I do agree though, go see one.

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post #6 of 23 Old 07-13-2013, 07:37 AM
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Why not try switching to xd material or even Stewart perf st130?

Not a big fan of that e4k material. It looked like putting an image on a sheer curtain to me.
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post #7 of 23 Old 07-13-2013, 10:11 AM - Thread Starter
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yeah that is the path I was going to go down. in fact I ordered the st. 130 perf screen, but then found out that they make it only in Ultramatte 130 when the screen is this large. so that gave me a little pause while I try to research that. but, even with that new screen, 3d will only be a tiny bit brighter, certainly not the 12 to 15 fL I'm looking for. 2d would be fine though. It basically already is.
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post #8 of 23 Old 07-13-2013, 12:58 PM
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Hey HiFi

Sony is supposed to have a new projector out in the next 2 or 3 months. Speculation is that it's a consumerized version of the 515. The Highlight series is based on the smaller DLP chip size, speculation is same "fab process" as the 4k, although the later has more mirrors so still nets out to be a larger chip. But both reportedly are a step down for 2k vs the largest 2k chip available. 4k could still come out better if pixel fill is a priority for you. Opinion on perceivable image quality impact of DLP chip size varies. Some say you would be hard pressed to tell the difference, others claim it is visible.

Just food for thought. I don't have a recommendation. I am also looking for big bright projector with good image quality at an affordable price.

 

 

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post #9 of 23 Old 07-13-2013, 08:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Well I was able to view a DPI Highlite 260 today. My understanding is that unit has basically the same light engine, .65 DLP chip, and optics as the new 660. Obviously it didn't have 3d nor was it nearly as bright as the dual lamp 8000 lumen 660 will be, but I think its a good comparison. It looked very good I thought. I tried to concentrate on things like intrascene contrast and colors as Art mentioned, and both did seem to be strong points. I could see some screen door, but mainly when a graphic computer style desktop of movie cover art was shown, not really during a film. Unfortunately, the throw didnt allow me to see a blown up 2:35 image like I would have on my 160" wide screen. I could see a 16:9 image that would be about the same as my 16:9, but not 2:35. So, once those pixels get blown up to fill the height of the screen, I expect the screen door issue would get a little worse. Hard to know if it would be distracting or not. It was not distracting from a seated distance on what I viewed today. Black level was of course elevated above what I get on the Sony with the DI engaged, but it wasn't distracting and would probably be the least thing I would be worried about if I moved to DLP. Since I couldn't see it blown up to my size screen, though, I kind of feel like I would still be buying blind a bit and hoping the screen door would not be an issue. It would be nice to see the wonders of 72hz per eye 3d as well before purchase, as that is something else that has intrigued me about the Highlite 660. I guess ultimately I am still on the fence. Since I couldn't see the supposed intoxicating brightness that the 660 will provide, nor know exactly how the screen door will look to me, I can't say with any certainty that I am convinced yet if it is worthwhile to change.
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post #10 of 23 Old 07-14-2013, 02:16 AM
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I am kind of in the same boat. Unlike you, haven't bought the Sony yet. I am getting. 142 scope, curved black diamond 1.4 gain screen and am on the fence on whether to get the Sony or a discounted dpi or runco for similar dollars. The Sony gets me 4k, 3d and 2000 lumens. Which other projector (new) would be 3000 lumens (like to like - ie indisputably brighter than the Sony) and a similar or better picture in 3d?

What would others do in my shoes?
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post #11 of 23 Old 07-14-2013, 02:26 AM
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Adanny. Is this going in a media. room poor environmental viewing set up/. if not, why are you using a black diamond? That's a screen for specific situations and not for reference class viewing.

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post #12 of 23 Old 07-14-2013, 09:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Yeah the problem also is that anything with substantially more brightness than the Sony is twice as much money. The 660 streets for basically double what the Sony does. A lot of those "3000 lumen" projectors are actually closer to 1100-1500. just go check out the Lumis thread with some user measurements. So it's either really jump up in price and get something like the 660 or live with the Sony. And the Sony has lots of characteristics that make it hard to give up!
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post #13 of 23 Old 07-14-2013, 02:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Adanny. Is this going in a media. room poor environmental viewing set up/. if not, why are you using a black diamond? That's a screen for specific situations and not for reference class viewing.

Hey mark

Thanks for the call out. Life's all about tradeoffs isn't it!

Yes. It is going in a multimedia room. I have gone the reference theater route before. I know there are many that see great use for such a room and screen but in practice, with my family and friends, we always keep at least some lights on 80% of the time. Rarely do we sit and watch a full movie (cause we see the good ones when they come out!). so while i have invested to put automatic lutron blinds to make it a bat cave if required, and despite 2 full walls of windows in the room, i can make it a tomb on demand. we never do that. for my family use, I got convinced that a light friendly projection system and screen is the way to go based on how we use it. Therefore the black diamond 142" (wish they made a larger one). I tested the BD extensively and while I know it is no reference screen, I found it to be amazing and 95% of reference when dark, and useable when lights.

But now I want to light it with a projector bright enough that I can leave the blinds up or multiple lights on if required.
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post #14 of 23 Old 07-14-2013, 07:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hifiaudio2 View Post

Yeah the problem also is that anything with substantially more brightness than the Sony is twice as much money. The 660 streets for basically double what the Sony does. A lot of those "3000 lumen" projectors are actually closer to 1100-1500.

If you don't mind the smaller chip size, the S2k DCI projectors from Barco, Christie, and NEC offer similar or better lumens and roughly split the price difference. CR is worse than the larger 2k chips, though.

 

 

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post #15 of 23 Old 07-14-2013, 07:49 PM - Thread Starter
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I searched and came up with this... is this what you are talking about?

http://www.barco.com/en/Specsheets/c0dd91af-f2a0-4e6e-acf9-b26f01f8a004/DP2K-10Sx.pdf

I know nothing about those, but it sounds interesting if they are in the low 20k range. What does the DCI compliance do for me? And the integrated dual 2tb drives, what would those be for in the home theater space?

I did see a killer feature on the options list though that I have wanted since 1984..... "RealD Ghostbusting license (IMS)"

In seriousness, is it ready to go out of the box for normal watching of BluRay and active 3d content?
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post #16 of 23 Old 07-15-2013, 01:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hifiaudio2 View Post

I searched and came up with this... is this what you are talking about?

http://www.barco.com/en/Specsheets/c0dd91af-f2a0-4e6e-acf9-b26f01f8a004/DP2K-10Sx.pdf

I know nothing about those, but it sounds interesting if they are in the low 20k range. What does the DCI compliance do for me? And the integrated dual 2tb drives, what would those be for in the home theater space?

I did see a killer feature on the options list though that I have wanted since 1984..... "RealD Ghostbusting license (IMS)"

In seriousness, is it ready to go out of the box for normal watching of BluRay and active 3d content?
The dp2k-10s is more in the 35-40K range, the integrated server is needed for the hdmi input on it. With DCI you might be able to get some movies on DCP before they are released on blu-ray but you will probably have to pay 500$+ per movie.
To get 3D working you need an external IR-emitter for active 3D or to get a color filter wheel for dolby 3D.
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post #17 of 23 Old 07-15-2013, 02:54 AM
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That's the one from Barco. Christie has the Solaria One. NEC has NC900. All three are based on the new(ish) "compact" 3 chip DLP 0.69" platform for screens under 30'. NEC is cheapest at I think $30k MSRP (source) Christie and Barco are more. My understanding is the NEC is fairly bare bones to compete on price, while Barco & Christie have more features which help to justify their higher price (to some people).

I think you can rip movies to the integrated media server, but still looking into that - I don't know. It's intended to hold movie theater movies (DCP). Most have HDMI inputs to display what they call "alternative content" which would be something like Bluray. I don't think 3D is ready to go - would have to buy a system from Dolby, RealD, or one of the others. There are 4 or 5 different 3D systems out there, each with tradeoffs. I'm not sure if the commercial 3D systems work with 3D Bluray content by default (need to find that out as well). I know people in the DCI forum have got their projectors to work with 3D Bluray using a collection of devices, but part of the value from the compact projectors is they have the server built in. Maybe that will turn out to be wasted for what we would mainly use it for (Bluray). Not sure if Ghostbusting works for Bluray either... I don't think so.

Other downsides are they run on 220v, are hot, noisy, big, heavy, and some have special cooling requirements (like a powered fan to vent the heat outside, although I think they have adapters if you want to deal with the heat in-room). The rated CR is also terrible compared to what is "available" in consumer space. I put that in quotes because many argue that the CR spec is exaggerated in consumer space and far more importance placed on it than really matters. I've never been bothered by black level at the movies, but have at home with projectors with much higher rated CR so maybe there is something too it. But then there have been comments by a few people like Art & Colmachine that have seen DCI in a HT setting and said CR and low light performance was lacking. You also have people dumping their half their light with iris mods to get better CR. Maybe because they didn't need that much light in the first place and its a good way to dim (pick up some extra CR in the process vs ND filter) -or- maybe low light performance really is bad enough with Bluray content that the trade off is worth it. Not sure if dropping half the light on a 9,000 lumen projector to get better CR makes sense... all things considered, might just go with a DPI since they appear to take a similar approach out of the box.

The main real world benefit to DCI, for me, is the ability to physically align the DMDs to better/perfect convergence. It's a feature on Barco and most of the Chisties - not sure about the others. I've seen claims that Sim2 and others could do it, but never heard of it actually being done. It's not a published feature on any consumer projector, but it is on most DCI projectors and seems to be done standard with a good install. Have you ever seen red/blue fringing on text at the movies? I haven't but every projector I have owned has had it to a certain extent. Art's projector is the best I've ever seen. I don't know if he got lucky or a cherry picked machine, but for me it would be a dice role. Too much money to just hope for the best.

So, not suggesting you run out and buy one. Just maybe something to consider in your search.

 

 

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post #18 of 23 Old 07-15-2013, 05:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Yeah I really appreciate you bringing those models up... I would not have known about them otherwise. And I agree... that convergence feature is really, really nice.

As far as the contrast goes, most of the DPI Highlite series is only rated at 2000:1 anyway. In fact, my Sony, if the DI is turned off, is about 2300:1 according to the Tom Norton hometheater.com review.

Some of the Titans, of course, get to about 5000:1. But I cannot afford those.
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post #19 of 23 Old 07-15-2013, 09:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hifiaudio2 View Post

On my current Sony with my 160" wide EN4k screen, there is no chance that I can ever make out a pixel, even standing at the screen. I am worried that as I move to a 3 chip DLP in an effort to get an order of magnitude more brightness, I could end up seeing the pixels, given the lower resolution, lesser pixel fill ratio than SXRD, much greater brightness, and inherently slightly sharper image of DLP .

Valid concern or no?

My eyes are 12'4" from the screen. I do NOT have an anamorphic lens, nor plan to get one.

The DLP in question is the DPI Highlite 660 3d.

If you are okay with the 1080 resolution, have you considered the Display Development HD5? Some info is here: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1455913/need-projector-capable-of-lighting-up-huge-screen-with-great-picture/150#post_23136311

It appears to have two significant advantages over the Highlite: Xenon bulb and larger .95 chip. The lumens is less for the HD5 at 5,000 rather than 8,000 for the Highlite, but from other comments in the thread above that seems to be bright enough for your screen.

Alternatively, if you really want the 4K resolution and you want endless amounts of lumens, then have you considered the Sony 515, there is a thread on it here: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1469088/sony-srx-r515p-4k-dci-projector

The 515 would have more lumens than the Highlite and 4X the resolution.

I think all three projectors are roughly in the same price range, so the HD5 and 515 appear to have some other key features that the Highlite does not have.
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post #20 of 23 Old 07-15-2013, 09:09 AM - Thread Starter
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The HD5 doesn't really do 3d, so that's out. If it did, I would get it. I spoke with Dan about it.

I will read that 515 thread. I was having trouble finding much info about it. I had thought it was a $40k+ ish street, though.
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post #21 of 23 Old 07-15-2013, 09:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hifiaudio2 View Post

The HD5 doesn't really do 3d, so that's out. If it did, I would get it. I spoke with Dan about it.

I will read that 515 thread. I was having trouble finding much info about it. I had thought it was a $40k+ ish street, though.

If 3d is a big priority for you, have you thought about going with two projectors for a passive solution using something like this? http://airflex5d.com.cn/product.html and then say two Runco LS-HB's?
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post #22 of 23 Old 07-15-2013, 09:37 AM - Thread Starter
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I cant really do passive 3d. It would require a silver screen, or whatever else that airflex requires, and having to find an acoustically transparent one, at that. I need an active 3d solution for my current screen, or for any Stewart microperf screen I might buy in the future.
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post #23 of 23 Old 07-15-2013, 10:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hifiaudio2 View Post

I cant really do passive 3d. It would require a silver screen, or whatever else that airflex requires, and having to find an acoustically transparent one, at that. I need an active 3d solution for my current screen, or for any Stewart microperf screen I might buy in the future.

There is a solution that allows for passive 3d on a normal screen, discussion is here: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1407101/official-omega-3d-passive-projection-system-thread/240#post_23448797

With the Omega filters you would still need something like the Geobox 501 (like the Airflex above) to align the 2 projectors, but the Omega filters don't require a polarized screen.
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