Predictions for 2014 4K DLP consumer projectors - AVS Forum

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Ultra Hi-End HT Gear ($20,000+)

LJG's Avatar LJG
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With Cedia just around the corner, any insights, rumors, predictions for 2014 4K DLP consumer projector announcements?
Glimmie's Avatar Glimmie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LJG View Post

With Cedia just around the corner, any insights, rumors, predictions for 2014 4K DLP consumer projector announcements?

How about they get the commercial units they already sold actually delivered and working first! rolleyes.gif
LJG's Avatar LJG
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I didn't realize there was delivery and operational issues with the commercial units
Dennis Erskine's Avatar Dennis Erskine
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Hard to say. I have a 4K 60fps (one of the first) due here in August...field upgradeable to 120.

I'm sure you'll see plenty of 4k flat panels & projectors; however, a word of caution. There is of yet no standard adopted for transport of the image to the display. Anything you buy now with HDMI input (limit 24fps) will be obsolete. Some units are beginning to ship with four HDMI inputs...the single HDMI from your 1080P source is routed to a video processor which up converts to 4K and then outputs the signal via 4 HDMI outputs (RGB Spectrum). That is still a long term issue in the absence of an adopted transport standard.
LJG's Avatar LJG
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Dennis:

Thanks, can you say what consumer model and brand you expect to receive this month? They will all need to be modular in form to accept a card type swap out for transport standard and DRM.
DanFrancis's Avatar DanFrancis
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I don't think it's a consumer model- pretty sure it is DCI.
Dennis Erskine's Avatar Dennis Erskine
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It is not a consumer model (but we can accommodate consumer video sources).
Dennis Erskine's Avatar Dennis Erskine
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Quote:
They will all need to be modular in form to accept a card type swap out for transport standard and DRM.
That would be nice to see but none of the 4k projectors or flat panels I've seen (so far) have been designed this way. I suspect some of the issues are:

1. The input side of the device has to be engineered to handle a 4K60 video input stream (ideally 4K120) and I rather suspect this requirement is not "built-in" in current displays (I do know of one flat panel that is already set up for this bandwidth...there may be more but they are likely consumerized versions of commercial units -- military, medical imaging, etc.;
2. The other challenge is predicting the physical form factor for swappable card...we would know what an HDMI card would have to be; but, if the future connector is unknown, the manufacturer has the risk the physical size of their card slot would not handle the future connector size. (Personally, I'm betting on an RJ45 sized connector ... but, then again, I haven't done well in Vegas smile.gif )
b curry's Avatar b curry
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Erskine View Post


That would be nice to see but none of the 4k projectors or flat panels I've seen (so far) have been designed this way. I suspect some of the issues are:

1. The input side of the device has to be engineered to handle a 4K60 video input stream (ideally 4K120) and I rather suspect this requirement is not "built-in" in current displays (I do know of one flat panel that is already set up for this bandwidth...there may be more but they are likely consumerized versions of commercial units -- military, medical imaging, etc.;
2. The other challenge is predicting the physical form factor for swappable card...we would know what an HDMI card would have to be; but, if the future connector is unknown, the manufacturer has the risk the physical size of their card slot would not handle the future connector size. (Personally, I'm betting on an RJ45 sized connector ... but, then again, I haven't done well in Vegas smile.gif )

 

 

Google Seiki Digital SE39UY04 39-Inch 4K Ultra HD 120Hz LED TV.

 

It's shiping now for less than $700.00.


thebland's Avatar thebland
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When I hear 'future upgrades', 'field upgradeable' or 'future connector ready'... I immediately turn off any curiosity.

I translate this info to a ready product in 2-3 years.
b curry's Avatar b curry
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

When I hear 'future upgrades', 'field upgradeable' or 'future connector ready'... I immediately turn off any curiosity.

I translate this info to a ready product in 2-3 years.

 

Truer words were never spoken.

 

And that goes double for Audio/Video consumer electronics.  smile.gif


Glimmie's Avatar Glimmie
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The problem with "upgradable" connectors is all high speed interfaces HDMI, DVI, Thunderport, HDSDI, SATA, are actually ANALOG!. Yes the transmission is digital but the actual electrical interface is an analog circuit. This is done as most high speed interfaces must stay out of saturation (a semiconductor design term). Unlike gate arrays, analog circuits are difficult to make field programmable especially at such high speeds. So it's doubtful we will see a programmable and upgradable HDMI interface.

The interface could be a card that is swapped out as needed, however there is no standard for the card interface. So the best you can hope for here is the display manufacture will supply an upgraded interface card when required. That's risky with the very short product life of today's electronics. And coupled with the small 4K user base for years to come, it's that much more risky.
Dennis Erskine's Avatar Dennis Erskine
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Quote:
Google Seiki Digital SE39UY04 39-Inch 4K Ultra HD 120Hz LED TV

That's nice; but, there still isn't a transport to get 4K (Ultra or otherwise) to the sink from the source (in the consumer world).
thebland's Avatar thebland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by b curry View Post

Truer words were never spoken.

And that goes double for Audio/Video consumer electronics.  smile.gif

Unfortunately it is true.

Now I hear SIM2 won't even be at CEDIA ghis yeat which further confirms my suspicions that nothing is far along enough in the pipeline to demo. In fact I would bet the industry doesn't even know where it's headed! Other manufacturers that do show will likely display 'concept pieces' that are said to be coming soon but likely will never come to market.
Steve Bruzonsky's Avatar Steve Bruzonsky
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Quote:
Originally Posted by b curry View Post

Truer words were never spoken.

And that goes double for Audio/Video consumer electronics.  smile.gif

Makes me happy to keep my 2008 vintage Sim2 C3X 1080 which has a great big picture, even better using the Darbee Darblet with it!!@@
So I don't have 3D. 3D for the home is apparently falling on its face, which I expected to occur. For once I didn't early adopt- and I was right for one. I am staying on the sidelines re 4K for now as well.
Pete's Avatar Pete
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

Now I hear SIM2 won't even be at CEDIA ghis yeat which further confirms my suspicions that nothing is far along enough in the pipeline to demo. In fact I would bet the industry doesn't even know where it's headed! Other manufacturers that do show will likely display 'concept pieces' that are said to be coming soon but likely will never come to market.

According to my local dealer, SIM2 is foregoing CEDIA in favor of regional private dealer showings. My guy is going to one in NYC in September.
wse's Avatar wse
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SIM2 sucks s... I had a HT300 and it worked for a year was repaired twice the second year and spent the last few years in a closet. I didn't want to pay another 1,590 to get repaired a third time!

I will never buy an other SIM2 ever, I have two JVC-DLA one is the RS-35U (3 years old) and the other an RS-2 (6 years old) both work flawlessly I am on my third lamp for both smile.gif
Seegs108's Avatar Seegs108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Erskine View Post

That's nice; but, there still isn't a transport to get 4K (Ultra or otherwise) to the sink from the source (in the consumer world).

Of course there is. HDMI 1.4 supports it up to 30hz (UHD) and 24hz (4K). Dual Link DVI and DisplayPort 1.2 also support it perfectly fine at higher refresh rates.
Dennis Erskine's Avatar Dennis Erskine
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Dylan -- HDMI 1.4 will not support 4K 60 fps (clearly no 3D at 24 fps). The JVC uses FOUR Dual Link DVI (our install uses 2 Dual Link DVI for 4K). The current crop of 4K projectors (consumer ala Sony) do not support DisplayPort. The thought that transports are available for that bandwidth is not relevant when such inputs are not available on the sinks. The point remains...any 4K projection/display device purchased now will *not* support the future standard adopted for 4k displays unless: (2) the manufacturer uses swappable input cards (ala Sony, Christie, etc. commercial projectors); or, (2) the purchaser will be content with lower 4K frame rates and can live without increased color bit depths. Equally to the point, as 4K sources become available they certainly will not be HDMI 1.4 (perhaps downward compatible).

The price you pay for 4K now is the pleasure of getting to do it all over again in a few months.
Seegs108's Avatar Seegs108
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Correct, but there isn't any consumer content at 4K 60fps anyways, with the exception of video games perhaps. But HDMI is not the only interconnect. Dual Link DVI and Displayport both have enough bandwidth already to support everything you've listed. Currently HDMI does have enough bandwidth to do UHD and 4K resolutions at an adequate 24fps-30fps. This material is going to be 90% of what one would be watching anyways.

But as you've said, we won't need to worry about this anyways as new HDMI spec will support these features when source material is available and these new HDMI ports will already be in consumer devices.
Dennis Erskine's Avatar Dennis Erskine
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Quote:
Correct, but there isn't any consumer content at 4K 60fps anyways, with the exception of video games perhaps. But HDMI is not the only interconnect. Dual Link DVI and Displayport both have enough bandwidth already to support everything you've listed. Currently HDMI does have enough bandwidth to do UHD and 4K resolutions at an adequate 24fps-30fps. This material is going to be 90% of what one would be watching anyways.
HDMI is the *only* interconnect for the current consumer projection devices because it is the only interconnect installed on the current consumer devices. (Show me the Display Port input on the Sony, for example.) The current batch of products with HDMI will not support 4K 3D, nor the higher frame rate material that is available ... why is it not widely available? No transport! For the record, it is not Dual Link DVI...it is two Dual Link DVI and Display Port will support UHD over 6.5'. Longer distances with active cables are limited to 2560 x 1600 (fiber optic is an option however).
Quote:
But as you've said, we won't need to worry about this anyways as new HDMI spec will support these features when source material is available and these new HDMI ports will already be in consumer devices.
That is correct; but, we are talking months, not years, and $$$ spent on 4K projection devices without input card frames, will have to be spent all over again. I don't care if a consumer jumps on the current 4k projection devices now ... I do care when they are not aware of the limited life of the current products, their inherent limitations, and the short time frame until a higher bandwidth transport is available and provided (regardless of what it is).
Seegs108's Avatar Seegs108
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My HTPC has HDMI 1.4a, Displayport 1.2a, and two dual link DVI ports. There are several new UHD devices coming out within the next month or two that will have displayport 1.2a to deal with higher frame rates. I would like to see manufacturers stray away from HDMI and start to use DisplayPort instead. For some reason they're worried about brand recognition. Now is the perfect time to implement a new interconnec. You're going to need to buy all new equipment to view UHD content, so I don't think people will be completely infuriated if they have to add another $15 item on top of the thousands they've already spent on new equipment. Let's give my displayport on my PC something to do!
Bulldogger's Avatar Bulldogger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

Let's give my displayport on my PC something to do!
Sure, we will be ready but we don't count. We will have to use whatever the consumer mass market accepts. Right now, that's HDMI and we need the next version.
mark haflich's Avatar mark haflich
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Sony is rumored to have a new consumer 4K projector at Cedia above the 1000ES (expected to be called the 1100ES and maybe replacing the 1000ES) and has announced an upgrade, retrofitable in the field Ted, to bring the 1000ES up to speed of the new unit. The upgrade includes HDMI 2.0 (4K 60 4:2:0), HDCP 2.2, unspecified other goodies in the 1100ES), a new bulb, the 4K server and tablet control, and in home installation of the upgrade by a Sony technician. MSRP $2500.
Art Sonneborn's Avatar Art Sonneborn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Sony is rumored to have a new consumer 4K projector at Cedia above the 1000ES (expected to be called the 1100ES and maybe replacing the 1000ES) and has announced an upgrade, retrofitable in the field Ted, to bring the 1000ES up to speed of the new unit. The upgrade includes HDMI 2.0 (4K 60 4:2:0), HDCP 2.2, unspecified other goodies in the 1100ES), a new bulb, the 4K server and tablet control, and in home installation of the upgrade by a Sony technician. MSRP $2500.

Is Sony doing DLP instead of SXRD now ?

Art
LJG's Avatar LJG
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No, Mark probably didn't read thread title
rx-8's Avatar rx-8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

When I hear 'future upgrades', 'field upgradeable' or 'future connector ready'... I immediately turn off any curiosity.

I translate this info to a ready product in 2-3 years.

I fully agree.

-- Bill --
mark haflich's Avatar mark haflich
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LJG View Post

No, Mark probably didn't read thread title

Your right. My comment was more directed as a promised upgrade actually being delivered.
Pete's Avatar Pete
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Does it strike anyone as odd that few projector manufactures have jumped on the 4K bandwagon? Other than Sony and the commercial theater projectors, there seems to be limited interest in riding the 4K coat tails of the flat panel manufactures. I have a hunch as to why: They are skipping 4K and going directly to 8K. Why 8K? A number of reasons...among them the ability to do 3D/No glasses.
b curry's Avatar b curry
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete View Post

Does it strike anyone as odd that few projector manufactures have jumped on the 4K bandwagon? Other than Sony and the commercial theater projectors, there seems to be limited interest in riding the 4K coat tails of the flat panel manufactures. I have a hunch as to why: They are skipping 4K and going directly to 8K. Why 8K? A number of reasons...among them the ability to do 3D/No glasses.

 

 I don't think it odd so much as it's more of a Sony thing.  Sony is looking to make a come back with cutting edge technology, generate cash flow, and stay out of bankruptcy IMHO.

 

The technology is ready and most importantly Sony has the vertical integration to support a consumer electronics 4K push in the market.  Sony has what appears to be a proprietary DRM based on HDCP 2.2 in place to protect their property and they don't look like they are ready to share with anyone else.

 

No other film studios have made any sounds regarding a willingness to support 4K and 4K broadcast TV is a pipe dream at this point.  It's a chicken or an egg question.  I would guess this has more to do with other projector manufactures not bringing product forward than anything.  There is no source material available.

 

With out source material, 4K is just up scaling that most people don't necessarily need.



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