Kaleidescape Cinema One...the cost of entry just got a whole lot cheaper ............. - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 198 Old 12-02-2013, 03:57 AM
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Q: Do you support SACD and DVD-Audio?
A:
The SACD and DVD-Audio formats are not supported by the Kaleidescape System at this time. It is unlikely that we will support SACD or DVD-Audio due to the tepid market acceptance and declining sales of these audio formats.

So it doesn't do 3D Blu Ray, SACD, DVD-Audio.

Looks like you can import your own media simply by making it into DVDs, Blu Rays, or CDs.

I wonder if there are plans for UHD 4K.

Do these systems support any type of hi-rez multichannel audio? I know that DSD downloads of hi rez audio are very popular now.


-Brian
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post #92 of 198 Old 12-02-2013, 06:36 PM - Thread Starter
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The four issues you mention make up less then 2 percent of the total market.

SACD and DVD audio are dead end product lines. Niche products supported by a high end delusional experience.

Most HD audio will be available thru download from this point on.

3D Blu Ray and 4K UHD are at least 1 years away from a final transmission spec.

You cannot rip your own Blu Ray disc and import them into a Kaleidescape System.

BTW Kaleidescape System don't support HDMI 6 so I guess that's another nail in the coffin for the product.
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post #93 of 198 Old 12-03-2013, 01:06 AM
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The four issues you mention make up less then 2 percent of the total market.

Quite possibly, but this product is targeting that 2 percent enthusiast market, so given such features are available in sub-$100 players, they are a noticeable omission here.
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SACD and DVD audio are dead end product lines.

Not really. True they never really got off the ground, which is a shame as I have several that are simply stunning, but they are far from dead - new albums are coming out in SACD on a fairly frequent basis.
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Niche products supported by a high end delusional experience.

Sorry . . are you referring to SACD or Kaleidescape here? tongue.gif
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Most HD audio will be available thru download from this point on.

Very true - does the Kaleidescape system support pre-downloaded hi-res FLAC or ALAC tracks (genuine question)? I'm pretty sure it doesn't support DSD as the post above queried.
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3D Blu Ray and 4K UHD are at least 1 years away from a final transmission spec.

. . . . I'm no expert, but I'm pretty sure that 3D Blu-ray has been out for some time?
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BTW Kaleidescape System don't support HDMI 6 so I guess that's another nail in the coffin for the product.

HDMI 6? I've not come across that to be honest. Support for HDMI 1.4b, the current standard that has been out for a year, would be ideal though - is the case on the Cinema One?
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post #94 of 198 Old 12-05-2013, 09:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wookii View Post

Quite possibly, but this product is targeting that 2 percent enthusiast market, so given such features are available in sub-$100 players, they are a noticeable omission here.

Sorry, but Kaleidescape is not targeting the top 2% enthusiast bleeding edge early adopter niche. They are marketing a product that provides a solution for a known problem - managing a library of titles that are inconvenient to try and manage by sifting through the physical discs. How many people have over 50 different 3-D Blu-ray movies? My Kaleidescape collection currently consists of 2,082 movie/tv titles and my 3-D movie collection is at 31. I don't need to play 3D titles over all the displays in my home so jockeying discs around the house is not an issue either.

As for DVD-A and SACD, my audio collection the Kaleidescape is 1,018 titles. My discs are upstairs but I don't think I have more than 20 high rez audio discs, either.
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post #95 of 198 Old 12-06-2013, 02:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Poindexter View Post

Sorry, but Kaleidescape is not targeting the top 2% enthusiast bleeding edge early adopter niche.

No? So a $4,000+ blu-ray player that can store the movie on a hard drive and play over a network is not an "enthusiast bleeding edge early adopter niche"? I would certainly say that it is. I would suggest that this is one of Kaleidascape target markets - the other (and no doubt by far the larger one) being the custom install market where a large proportion of the customers either will have little knowledge (or more likely will have little interest) in the physical equipment that they are having installed.
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They are marketing a product that provides a solution for a known problem - managing a library of titles that are inconvenient to try and manage by sifting through the physical discs.

Given that this thread is discussing the Cinema One, how does the Cinema One provide a solution to that - you still have to hunt out the physical disc to put it in the drive?
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How many people have over 50 different 3-D Blu-ray movies?

The quantity of discs isn't really relevant, is it? The point being made is again that, given its price point, 3D playback should be included. The only reason I can surmise for its omission is that the hardware is based on an older (pre-3D) design.
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My Kaleidescape collection currently consists of 2,082 movie/tv titles and my 3-D movie collection is at 31. I don't need to play 3D titles over all the displays in my home so jockeying discs around the house is not an issue either.

So if you were starting from scratch today, how many Cinema Ones and Vaults would you need to purchase to cover your entire collection? Assuming your collection is split 50/50 between DVD's and blu-rays - you'd need three Vaults, and 12 Cinema Ones - have I worked that out correctly? Total cost $60k. (Obviously at that point you'd go for one of their other solutions I'm sure, but you get the point that the costs escalate for a large collection like yours.) . . . and after all that investment how do you play your 31 3D blu-rays - presumably you have to buy another player from another manufacturer?
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As for DVD-A and SACD, my audio collection the Kaleidescape is 1,018 titles. My discs are upstairs but I don't think I have more than 20 high rez audio discs, either.

Agreed, most peoples SACD and DVD-Audio collections are going to be relatively small, but again, for $4,000 should the Cinema One not be able to play them? Especially when a sub-$200 blu-ray player has such features. So how do you play your SACD's and DVD-A discs - yet another player?

Again, to reiterate, I'm not bashing Kaleidescape or their concept - if I wasn't genuinely interested in their products I wouldn't be posting here at all. Indeed, as a business owner, I can see that their business model it is actually very clever - and full credit to them for developing it to this point, as it completely locks their customer in, particularly once you start downloading from their store. Those people who have secured their 50 free movies are going to be highly unlikely to move away from Kaleidascape when they run out of storage space and potentially lose those movies, so it guarantees future hardware purchases.

What I am criticising is an omission of certain features that should be included at this price point, together with, from a purely user perspective, that exact business model and the restriction that a lack of an open storage and file use system represents, that stops potential customers such as myself jumping in with both feet.
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post #96 of 198 Old 12-06-2013, 04:12 AM
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^^^

I understand that is a show stopper for some: I also have some 3D, SACD, and DVD-A but the majority are standard BD, DVD, and CD's: as I recall the Escient system and Sony ES BD changer had similar limitations: this was not a factor for me: I also have an OPPO 105 so I can still play all of these discs. (I am not into 3D).

The system is limited to 2 Cinema One's (8 TB total) and one Vault : the second Cinema One can provide a second independent zone or work as a slave to the first.

hoping this will become an owners thread for the Cinema One ...
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post #97 of 198 Old 12-06-2013, 06:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wookii View Post

No? So a $4,000+ blu-ray player that can store the movie on a hard drive and play over a network is not an "enthusiast bleeding edge early adopter niche"? I would certainly say that it is. I would suggest that this is one of Kaleidascape target markets - the other (and no doubt by far the larger one) being the custom install market where a large proportion of the customers either will have little knowledge (or more likely will have little interest) in the physical equipment that they are having installed.

I definitely do not think Kaleidescape is for the early adopter crowd. The appeal of Kaleidescape is the simplicity, the fact that it just works. Early adopters generally are willing to deal with bugs and constant firmware updates, etc. Kaleidescape owners do not want to deal with these things.

Anyways, as far as 3D, I am certainly interested. I believe Kaleidescape is interested as well. From what I heard, one of the issues was that they had not found an adequate processor to handle the 3D streaming for their needs, but I have no insider knowledge.
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post #98 of 198 Old 12-06-2013, 11:00 AM
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Quote:
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I definitely do not think Kaleidescape is for the early adopter crowd. The appeal of Kaleidescape is the simplicity, the fact that it just works. Early adopters generally are willing to deal with bugs and constant firmware updates, etc. Kaleidescape owners do not want to deal with these things.
Early adopters *may* want to put up with those hassles but for sure their family does not. I have a DVR that way and the bugs and reliability issues are always there. One time my wife tried to use it on her own and I had to haver jump through so many loops remotely just to get it to play a simple Blu-ray. I think anyone who thinks K. is not for them, should go and play with one. You will gladly pay the money and be done with it!

I took advantage of Warner top 100 movies over the black friday and bought a ton of movies for $1.50 (yes, top 100 movies for one dollar and fifty cent each), even those that I already had the disc for. The purchasing was effortless and I got exact copies of the Blu-rays I had. Was worth paying $1.50 to not mess with finding the disc, etc. And these purchases came with Ultraviolet rights so I can play them on other devices. You just can't do stuff like this with homebrew solution.

And I say this as someone who was determined to build everything myself. In the context of folks reading this forum, I can't think of a reason to go and mess around with a machine yourself. I want to use my time to have fun and not debug the crash, software bug, etc.

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post #99 of 198 Old 12-06-2013, 02:15 PM
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I'm a big HTPC guy as my local HT group can vouch for and have always been a proponent of it over systems like the dune/pch but I can see the appeal in a Kaleidescape. It took me sometime to get my htpc to play 24p and color levels right...wouldn't mind getting something that works out of the box perfectly! Also personally setting up my own raid set up was a bit tough...wouldn't mind the set up that comes with the kaleidescape.

No subwoofer I've heard has been able to produce the bass I've experienced in the Corps!

Must..stop...buying...every bluray release...
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post #100 of 198 Old 12-06-2013, 02:42 PM
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So, to add to what I stated earlier...
Having said that I do not think Kaleidescape is for the early adopter, I happen to have a Kaleidescape system and I consider myself an early adopter - in some ways.
I have built my own computers, servers, install my own equipment, calibrate my own displays.
There are times that I like to tinker, experiment with new equipment or software.
When I just want to sit down and enjoy a movie, I enjoy using the Kaleidescape for it's simplicity and functionality. Goes without saying that it is easy for my family.
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post #101 of 198 Old 12-06-2013, 08:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wookii View Post

No? So a $4,000+ blu-ray player that can store the movie on a hard drive and play over a network is not an "enthusiast bleeding edge early adopter niche"? I would certainly say that it is. I would suggest that this is one of Kaleidascape target markets - the other (and no doubt by far the larger one) being the custom install market where a large proportion of the customers either will have little knowledge (or more likely will have little interest) in the physical equipment that they are having installed..

It is not a bleeding edge early adopter piece. You seem hung up on the price, as if a high cost means it has to have every bell and whistle. A $30,000 Ford Mustang is a sports car. A $200,000 Rolls Royce is not, even though it is more expensive. This is a luxury convenience item.
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Given that this thread is discussing the Cinema One, how does the Cinema One provide a solution to that - you still have to hunt out the physical disc to put it in the drive?

You don't need the disc to be in the drive for titles you buy from the Kaleidescape store. You can add the D700 vault to the Cinema One and not need to have the physical disc present for playback of Blu-ray titles not purchased through their store. You don't need the disc for playback of DVD and CD content regardless.
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The quantity of discs isn't really relevant, is it? The point being made is again that, given its price point, 3D playback should be included. The only reason I can surmise for its omission is that the hardware is based on an older (pre-3D) design.

Given its price point that you keep bringing up, it is a luxury item, not an "I can do everything under the sun" player. I head the same argument several years ago that it should have supported HD-DVD. Another reason you could surmise that it does not have 3D is that people would then complain that the new Cinema One supports 3D, but the players in the premier line do not. That is a no win situation for them unless they also release a 3D player for the premier line.
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So if you were starting from scratch today, how many Cinema Ones and Vaults would you need to purchase to cover your entire collection? Assuming your collection is split 50/50 between DVD's and blu-rays - you'd need three Vaults, and 12 Cinema Ones - have I worked that out correctly? Total cost $60k. (Obviously at that point you'd go for one of their other solutions I'm sure, but you get the point that the costs escalate for a large collection like yours.) . . . and after all that investment how do you play your 31 3D blu-rays - presumably you have to buy another player from another manufacturer?

You are correct that I would go for another solution as the Cinema One was not designed for collections my size. They already have a product for that. I have two 3U servers, 2 M500 Vaults and 4 other M-series players. After all that investment, I play the 31 3D blu-rays for my kids on a 3D bluray player. I also play my Laserdiscs on a Pioneer laserdisc player, my D-Theater titles on a JVC D-Theater deck and my HD-DVD titles on my old Toshiba HD-DVD player. I do have more Lasers and D-Theater titles than 3D titles, but don't complain about them. I expect 3D to be less successful than Laserdisc was. Just one other note on Laserdisc, the Pioneer HLD-X9 was the undisputed #1 quality LaserDisc player in the world. Even today, they still sell for over $1,000. That player won't even play a CD, although the cheaper players would. You don't buy the HLD-X9 to play CDs.
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Agreed, most peoples SACD and DVD-Audio collections are going to be relatively small, but again, for $4,000 should the Cinema One not be able to play them? Especially when a sub-$200 blu-ray player has such features. So how do you play your SACD's and DVD-A discs - yet another player?

Again with the price. In your world, there cannot be a luxury item that doesn't slice, dice and cut tin cans because if it is expensive it has to do everything. The sub-$200 player does those things, but in all honesty, if that is the case then what is the big deal buying a $200 player after buying a $4k unit. Sales tax on the Cinema One is more than that. Also, it wouldn't be yet another player because the 3D Blu-ray can play those too, right? So I have one cheap player that can cover me on all those items (actually, my oppo isn't a cheap player but still far less than the Kaleidescape).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wookii View Post

Again, to reiterate, I'm not bashing Kaleidescape or their concept - if I wasn't genuinely interested in their products I wouldn't be posting here at all. Indeed, as a business owner, I can see that their business model it is actually very clever - and full credit to them for developing it to this point, as it completely locks their customer in, particularly once you start downloading from their store. Those people who have secured their 50 free movies are going to be highly unlikely to move away from Kaleidascape when they run out of storage space and potentially lose those movies, so it guarantees future hardware purchases.

What I am criticising is an omission of certain features that should be included at this price point, together with, from a purely user perspective, that exact business model and the restriction that a lack of an open storage and file use system represents, that stops potential customers such as myself jumping in with both feet.

I suspect that perhaps you are not their target market but think you are?

Adding support for open storage makes them have to provide tech support for people who cannot configure their NAS system and causes users to be unhappy with Kaleidescape for poor performance due to users having substandard storage systems. All that would do would increase their tech support costs while simultaneously eroding their profit margins. Others who have tried have found the numbers just don't work out and they go broke or end up with a low cost system that is not plug and play and relies on community support from tech forums like the XBMC systems and such. Windows Media Center sounds more like something you are looking for, although I don't think that supported SACD or DVD Audio and required third party software to allow for loading DVD and Blu-rays into the system.
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post #102 of 198 Old 12-17-2013, 05:57 AM
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completed my K Cinema One/ Vault system with the addition of a second Cinema One: this gives a full function second zone which can be controlled independently (different IP addresses). Only glitch I see is use of the IR remote: there is no way to shut off the front panel IR eye so I have to isolate one of the Cin Ones or cover the eye (not easy) I use the IR remote occasionally for setup.

now one player is connected to the processor for HD audio, and the other to a Gefen matrix switch : so far so good

I do notice some slower response times with the second One: all my network switchers are gigabit speed...
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post #103 of 198 Old 12-17-2013, 08:42 AM
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This past weekend, my wife surprised me with the order of a Kaleidescape system! 1u server and m700 vault.

She took me to the store to confirm my order, to make sure she was ordering what I wanted/needed. We found out that the server ordered included the 4 - 2Tb cartridges. I decided to upgrade to the 4 - 4Tb cartridges. (what the heck do I care? Her money!!!wink.gif)

System should be arriving on December27th.

Can't wait to join the fun!!!

Kevin
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post #104 of 198 Old 12-17-2013, 09:04 AM
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post #105 of 198 Old 12-17-2013, 02:05 PM
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Congrats Kevin! (On both the K gear and the wife!!smile.gif)
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post #106 of 198 Old 12-23-2013, 07:44 PM
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I was looking at the K system and truthfully was comparing it to a xbmc setup. The cost to enter a K system is cheaper but a move to a 1u and supporting products sure bumped up the cost very quickly. I have to admit the c1 for dvd & BR downloads is a nice option. In fact, I came across a setup at the local Best Buy while shopping for an Ipad. The system is very nice and smooth. The two interfaces (K & XBMC)were different but I think my wife would be more incline to using the K system. The Premier level costs is prohibitive for us. Best Buy had an open box there for a sub 3k price and I am very tempted to take it for a test drive. With the 50 free movies and 200 dvd's, I would have a decent library to start with. They offered to load the 200 discs for me and let me load the 50 when I get home. That is worth the price of admission. I was hoping to split the c1 view between the LR and Media rooms . A second c1 would hold everything we own other than the BR content. But I have to say dvd is our preference in the main LR. It might be worth a shot...I don't mine loading my OPPO with BR content not currently in the K Store.
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post #107 of 198 Old 12-24-2013, 10:15 AM
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If you go for it, I'd get those DVD's loaded quickly. You'll need to register the system with the K Store to get the 50 free download movies, and they must be selected by Dec.31 (they can download anytime after that date, but the 50 free download credits must be used by the 31st).




Jim
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post #108 of 198 Old 12-28-2013, 11:04 AM
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^^^

they just extended the deadline for 50 free movies until 31 Jan 2014
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post #109 of 198 Old 12-28-2013, 11:09 AM
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Quote:
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^^^

they just extended the deadline for 50 free movies until 31 Jan 2014

To be clear, this extension only applies to Cinema One systems sold by 12/31....ie, Tuesday.
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post #110 of 198 Old 12-30-2013, 09:16 PM
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Hello All

I went to the local magnolia store today to see cinema one in action. I loved the product, but max capability of 200 blu rays made me hesitate (even with two cinema one).

Dealer agreed with me and gave me an option. He has a demo unit of 1u server and m class player with vault he would like to sell. He said will get me a pricing by weekend.

I think from the sound of it the server will have 2 2TB and 2 4TB disks. I expect him to provide me a discount and sell around $12 to 14K. Do you guys think this will be a good deal. It is a lot of money but don't think any home brew htpc will match the experience.

I also have a question for my audio CD's. Will the ipad app let me play music with out need to fire up the projector?

Cheers

Raj
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post #111 of 198 Old 12-30-2013, 11:31 PM
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I was looking at this system and found that the 2tb hard drives for the premiere line is $795?? What kind of hard drives are they using??

No subwoofer I've heard has been able to produce the bass I've experienced in the Corps!

Must..stop...buying...every bluray release...
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post #112 of 198 Old 12-31-2013, 04:42 AM
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In 2 slots I think they are using 2 TB and in the rest 4TB.

Cheers

Raj
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post #113 of 198 Old 12-31-2013, 05:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rramacha View Post

Hello All

I went to the local magnolia store today to see cinema one in action. I loved the product, but max capability of 200 blu rays made me hesitate (even with two cinema one).

Dealer agreed with me and gave me an option. He has a demo unit of 1u server and m class player with vault he would like to sell. He said will get me a pricing by weekend.

I think from the sound of it the server will have 2 2TB and 2 4TB disks. I expect him to provide me a discount and sell around $12 to 14K. Do you guys think this will be a good deal. It is a lot of money but don't think any home brew htpc will match the experience.

I also have a question for my audio CD's. Will the ipad app let me play music with out need to fire up the projector?

Cheers

Raj


If that's the "new" C1 you were looking at, the max BR capacity is 100 BR, not 200.

If the 1U has two 4TB's and two 2TB's, then you have 8TB of storage capacity. The first 4TB will be dedicated to RAID (actually not a single drive, the KRAID is spread out amongst the drives, but RAID will always be allocated to cover the largest drive in the Server, in this case 4TB. The price might be fair, but need to know the final offer from Mag. to comment, also need to know the Vault model (you mentioned M-Player and Vault and if that's in the same case then it's an M700 ($6,995 retail). There is also a DV700 (Vault only), and a couple of M-Class Players (M300 (no import, playback only), and the M500 which has a drive for importing AND playback).

Jim
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post #114 of 198 Old 12-31-2013, 05:57 AM
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Originally Posted by pokekevin View Post

I was looking at this system and found that the 2tb hard drives for the premiere line is $795?? What kind of hard drives are they using??



Those are the cheaper drives. The 4TB's are $1,295. To learn more about K's drive costs, a search in the forum should provide K's reasoning behind the pricing.




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post #115 of 198 Old 12-31-2013, 06:01 AM
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Thank you for the post. I appreciate your help. Yes I knew C1 is only 100 BR. I assumed getting two. The vault he offered is one which also has a playing capability.

I am totally buying the drive cost. Whether I can afford or not K is one amazing system for movies. I will post what the final price is once mag lets me know.
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post #116 of 198 Old 01-04-2014, 02:44 PM
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I hope, perhaps vainly, that one day I'll be able to buy something from Kaleidescape like a C1 without the need to have the disc in drive or a vault to watch a Blu-ray movie.

I don't want to have to buy my collection all over again although the download option is great for future purchases. I know the issue is one of licensing but hopefully there is some legitimate solution in the future.

Of course my issue is grounded in my budget limitations. I would love to have the elegance and superior UI of a C1 as a standalone device in the manner I describe.
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post #117 of 198 Old 01-05-2014, 04:10 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by sierraalphahotel View Post

I hope, perhaps vainly, that one day I'll be able to buy something from Kaleidescape like a C1 without the need to have the disc in drive or a vault to watch a Blu-ray movie.

I don't want to have to buy my collection all over again although the download option is great for future purchases. I know the issue is one of licensing but hopefully there is some legitimate solution in the future.

Of course my issue is grounded in my budget limitations. I would love to have the elegance and superior UI of a C1 as a standalone device in the manner I describe.

As the Kaleidescape signs up more vendors you will have a opportunity to update your library to go disk-less with a electronic download version for about $ 1.99 UPGRADE right now.
'
It allows you then remove your blu ray disc from the system. I had 400 blu ray disc in the system and have been able to remove approx 75 by updating my system with a digital downloaded versions.

This will only get cheaper and more available as time goes on.

And eventually you will be able to access your setup remotely from a summer home and use it at a secondary location with a additional "cinema one".

It appears to be a future feature in development.
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post #118 of 198 Old 01-05-2014, 05:57 AM
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Originally Posted by jbm007 View Post

As the Kaleidescape signs up more vendors you will have a opportunity to update your library to go disk-less with a electronic download version for about $ 1.99 UPGRADE right now.
'
It allows you then remove your blu ray disc from the system. I had 400 blu ray disc in the system and have been able to remove approx 75 by updating my system with a digital downloaded versions.

This will only get cheaper and more available as time goes on.

And eventually you will be able to access your setup remotely from a summer home and use it at a secondary location with a additional "cinema one".

It appears to be a future feature in development.

Thanks for that information.

So for a nominal fee it would be possible to reduce the need for needing the disc ever time...interesting. So I would have to load my existing collection into a Cinema One and then check which titles were available to "upgrade" to go disc-less or would the K software let me know?

Again, thanks for the info! smile.gif

Sean

Edit: I found the press release http://kaleidescape.com/media/pr/PR-20130925-Cedia-2013.php
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Sean, after loading your collection into the C1, and then logging into the K-Store, you would select "Your Library" from the available menu and then select either "Upgrade to BR Quality and Go Disc-Free", or "Go Disc-Free with UltraViolet". You will then see all of your eligible upgrades.



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post #120 of 198 Old 01-05-2014, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by JlgLaw View Post

Sean, after loading your collection into the C1, and then logging into the K-Store, you would select "Your Library" from the available menu and then select either "Upgrade to BR Quality and Go Disc-Free", or "Go Disc-Free with UltraViolet". You will then see all of your eligible upgrades.



Jim

Hi Jim,

Thanks, that is good to know. I will have a look through the K Store to see if any of my more obscure classical Blu-ray titles are in there smile.gif.

I'm more encouraged now with more information in hand.

Hope you're enjoying your Trinnov set-up!

Cheers,

Sean
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