Kaleidescape Cinema One...the cost of entry just got a whole lot cheaper ............. - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 199 Old 08-01-2013, 01:27 PM - Thread Starter
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https://store.kaleidescape.com/hardware/details/cinema-one


Time to check with the wife.

Jim
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post #2 of 199 Old 08-01-2013, 01:38 PM
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Very cool. Since the vault is optional, how does it get past the need to have a physical copy of the disc?


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post #3 of 199 Old 08-01-2013, 02:05 PM
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Option 1: kaleidescape store dowloads of Blu Ray quality movies.

Option 2: use the single disc tray, essentially like a normal BD player, but with instant access by pressing "play movie"

Option 3: buy the Cinema One and DV700 for the introductory price of 8k and forget about disc issues as well as loading the server in a much more efficient way.

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post #4 of 199 Old 08-01-2013, 02:36 PM
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Oh, 8k with the vault. Now that does interest me.

Ill have I check the UK pricing.
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post #5 of 199 Old 08-01-2013, 02:36 PM
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I like option 3. So up to 100 + 320 or 420 blu rays on tap instantly.... That's plenty for me

Same interface as the traditional model / software? Any notable exclusions?


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post #6 of 199 Old 08-01-2013, 03:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

I like option 3. So up to 100 + 320 or 420 blu rays on tap instantly.... That's plenty for me

Same interface as the traditional model / software? Any notable exclusions?



Not exactly. The C1's internal hard drive (single 4TB) can only store 100 BR discs (or 600 DVD's). The DV700 Vault mentioned can hold up to 320 discs. We assume these discs would be BR only because DVD's and CD's are not required to be present during playback (you may remember this point regarding DVD's is still in litigation). So, it is not 420 BR discs. Playback of content comes directly from the 4TB hard drive in the C1, not the DV700 (it has no playback capability). Basically, the C1 and DV700 combo allows you store and playback up to 100 BR movies because of the 4TB max storage of the internal 4TB drive. The only way to increase storage and playback beyond 100 BR discs is to buy another C1 to add to the system (you would also then be able to add those new 100 BR discs to the DV700, increasing the stored discs to 200 out of 320 slots available in the DV700. The other 120 slots in the DV700 would not be used, because you can only link a max of two C1's together in one system. Not sure if software can change that limitation, but if it can it is likely something K will look at going forward.

One additional benefit of the C1's BR playback, even from the tray (as opposed to the internal drive) is the ability to bypass all of the crap on the disc and simply play the movie.

Yes, you get all of the usual K functionality affecting disc management and playback.

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post #7 of 199 Old 08-01-2013, 04:27 PM
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It should also be noted that the Cinema One is the first in a line of products- this is the beginning. I've already asked about external drives to expand capacity, etc. nothing yet since the C1 was introduced a week ago, but cool things are on the horizon at Kaleidescape!

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post #8 of 199 Old 08-02-2013, 02:51 AM
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It is an interesting step in the right direction for Kaleidescape, but still, the whole having to put the physical disc in just kills it in my opinion. I really see no point in having a media player that requires you to put the physical disc in when you select a movie off it to play, you may as well just put the movie disc in a bog standard blu-ray player.

Sure, it's got a very pretty interface. But very similar can be achieved with a significantly cheaper media player, and a decent NAS, which also removes the need to put the disc in at all. A little bit more faff up front maybe, but still, a cost saving with increased usability.

Full BD downloads is an entirely different prospect though, that could really work - though I'd want space for more than 100 BD's. My only concern with that, is that I would assume your new BD download collection would be in a proprietary Kaleidescape format, effectively tying you into their hardware for perpetuity?!
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post #9 of 199 Old 08-02-2013, 03:41 AM
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Personally $8K to store 100 movies seems steep. More capacity. In today's age of 3 terabyte hard drives for under $100 I'd have bitten for 300-400 movie storage for $8K

We'll see what comes down the line or maybe I'm just cheap.
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post #10 of 199 Old 08-02-2013, 04:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

Personally $8K to store 100 movies seems steep. More capacity. In today's age of 3 terabyte hard drives for under $100 I'd have bitten for 300-400 movie storage for $8K

We'll see what comes down the line or maybe I'm just cheap.

No, I tend to agree. Given that you can buy a laptop with a blu-ray drive, a 12TB NAS, a couple of media players and a shed load of blu-rays for less than half that amount, it doesn't represent good value.

The real trick would be if Kaleidascape release a basic media player that allows indexing and playback of blu-ray rips (including .mkv's and BD .iso's), with their interface and metadata. That would find them hitting the wider user market and being the first to market with a high end general media player, rather than a proprietary system based one. They'd have me as a buyer hands down then, as it would provide a genuine high end alternative to the current crop of Dune, WD et al players.
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post #11 of 199 Old 08-02-2013, 04:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gdavies09031977 View Post

............Full BD downloads is an entirely different prospect though, that could really work - though I'd want space for more than 100 BD's. My only concern with that, is that I would assume your new BD download collection would be in a proprietary Kaleidescape format, effectively tying you into their hardware for perpetuity?!


They do not use the term BR download, probably for legal or contractual reasons, but they do say BR "quality." You get all the same quality as BR, including the audio, and of course you do not need a physical disc. With the purchase you get to download to up to five K systems, provided they are registered to the buyer. If you ever lose your content for any reason, you can download it again for free from the K Store.




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post #12 of 199 Old 08-02-2013, 04:35 AM
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Originally Posted by JlgLaw View Post

They do not use the term BR download, probably for legal or contractual reasons, but they do say BR "quality." You get all the same quality as BR, including the audio, and of course you do not need a physical disc. With the purchase you get to download to up to five K systems, provided they are registered to the buyer. If you ever lose your content for any reason, you can download it again for free from the K Store.




Jim

Thanks Jim - but can I play that download on my "some other name" media player?
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post #13 of 199 Old 08-02-2013, 04:56 AM
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Kaleidescape's future is a bit shaky right now. I would wait to see how things finalize in court for them. Not to mention that's a big investment for storing only 100 BD discs.


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post #14 of 199 Old 08-02-2013, 05:03 AM
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You mean the illegal "some other name" media player?

It is important to remember that the requirement to have the physical disc in a tray is not kaleidescape's but that of the Blu Ray disc association; kaleidescape has to maintain that requirement to be legal.

We're not talking about 8k for 100 disc capacity, we're talking about 4k to get ALL the benefits of the kaleidescape OS and user interface with 100 disc capacity AND a 320 disc storage vault for disc verification and MUCH faster import of content than one disc at a time. (For that additional 4k. The DV700 is normally 6k by itself) the promo is 10k worth of stuff for 8k...that's a deal.

What other server system, legal for BD or not, has the ability to pop in 100+ discs of BD,DVD, or CD and walk away while it auto-imports and gets ALL the metadata, aspect ratio info, genre, etc.

Kaleidescape is more than JUST a server system: the app where you can pick your comtent with the flick of a finger, automatically sets aspec ratio properly to output for anamorphic lens use, cues for the BRIC...

More capacity with the same 320 disc storage and one zone playback (with the ability to expand to as many zones as you want) starts at 17k for a 1 RU server plus M700.

Cinema One allows people that could never garner the kaleidescape experience to do so without breaking the bank.

Another situation where one has to consider the whole package- hardware, software, support, and user experience.

Oh, and it should be mentioned that there will most likely be an eventual trade-up program in place for people that want to migrate from Cinema One to Premier (the original lineup of products) systems.

Dan

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post #15 of 199 Old 08-02-2013, 05:53 AM
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What do you get with the vault? If you have 100 bds in your Cinema 1 and the vault full of discs, does the software show all 420 discs, cover art, etc? Still skips previews for vault discs?
Thanks


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post #16 of 199 Old 08-02-2013, 06:17 AM
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The software shows the first 100 BDs you import- the rest don't get imported because the drive is at capacity. A second Cinema One player expands capacity to 200 BDs.

If one were to max-out the Cinema One ecosystem, you'd have 2 zones, capacity for 200 Blu Rays, or 1200 DVDs, or 12000 CDs, the storage (for disc verification) of 200 BDs plus the ability to still import discs if you had not filled the server.

Maxed-out Cinema One ecosystem is 12k right now

Out demo system is almost 2 years old, and we do not have 320 BDs loaded on our server (22 TB for now). We have tons of DVDs, but not all are available on BD, and not all need to be converted.

Dan

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post #17 of 199 Old 08-02-2013, 07:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adidino View Post

Kaleidescape's future is a bit shaky right now. I would wait to see how things finalize in court for them. Not to mention that's a big investment for storing only 100 BD discs.



I don't think this is accurate at all, and these statements tend to come from people that have no direct knowledge of the day-to-day legal proceedings, and have not been paying attention to K's business direction. First, K could still prevail on the last appeal, second, even if the last appeal goes against them, current owner's importing DVD are unaffected, third (and probably most importantly), K and the market are moving toward more BR participation which has NOTHING to do with the litigation you refer to, and in fact already has the necessary licensing and agreements in place to continue in business, even without DVD capability. Most of our K client's have either moved entirely to BR or are well on their way to a fully BR system. Finally, there is also the K Store that has a couple of studio's onboard supporting K's HD (BR) and DVD download service, and other's on the way. These are the same studio's the DVD-CCA represents in the DVD litigation and yet they are still in discussions to participate in the download store. You can read between the lines.

Lastly, K is a financially sound and well run business that is not even close to closing operations. They have strategic plans well into the next several years, and continue to develop new products.



Jim

(Disclosure, I own a company that sells K, I moderate the K Owner's Forum, and I'm a huge fanboy, completely biased in their favor.)biggrin.gif
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post #18 of 199 Old 08-02-2013, 08:34 AM
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Can the KScape handle DVD-A / SACD?

Also. Has anyone used one of these


SONY BDP-CX960 400 DISC BLU-RAY PLAYER/CHANGER
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post #19 of 199 Old 08-02-2013, 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by djnickuk View Post

Can the KScape handle DVD-A / SACD?

Also. Has anyone used one of these


SONY BDP-CX960 400 DISC BLU-RAY PLAYER/CHANGER



No, the K Player's do not play DVD-A and SACD discs.


Yes, had one, and sold a few of the Sony changer's but that was several years ago. Not sure about others, but I had several problems with jammed disc's during my short ownership.



Jim
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post #20 of 199 Old 08-02-2013, 01:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by JlgLaw View Post

I don't think this is accurate at all, and these statements tend to come from people that have no direct knowledge of the day-to-day legal proceedings, and have not been paying attention to K's business direction. First, K could still prevail on the last appeal, second, even if the last appeal goes against them, current owner's importing DVD are unaffected, third (and probably most importantly), K and the market are moving toward more BR participation which has NOTHING to do with the litigation you refer to, and in fact already has the necessary licensing and agreements in place to continue in business, even without DVD capability. Most of our K client's have either moved entirely to BR or are well on their way to a fully BR system. Finally, there is also the K Store that has a couple of studio's onboard supporting K's HD (BR) and DVD download service, and other's on the way. These are the same studio's the DVD-CCA represents in the DVD litigation and yet they are still in discussions to participate in the download store. You can read between the lines.

Lastly, K is a financially sound and well run business that is not even close to closing operations. They have strategic plans well into the next several years, and continue to develop new products.



Jim

(Disclosure, I own a company that sells K, I moderate the K Owner's Forum, and I'm a huge fanboy, completely biased in their favor.)biggrin.gif



Thank You Jim

I was trying to figure out a response to this blatantly false statement without appearing to be biased.

You did far better then I would have.

We sell K and try not to be a fanboy of this or any other product we support.

Thanks

Jim M.
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post #21 of 199 Old 08-02-2013, 02:04 PM
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You mean the illegal "some other name" media player?

No, that would be incorrect Dan, a player that can play an assortment of file types is not illegal. In fact neither (surprisingly) is the software that allows one to to circumvent the copy protection on a blu-ray disc and take a copy of it. The illegal event is the actual copying of the media itself. It is the end user, or indeed the manufacturer that provides the copying solution, that is committing the illegal act. In fact taking it further, the act of copying the media, is not in itself illegal, there are no specific laws that are broken in doing so. This is a civil matter that allows a person or organisation to bring a claim on the basis of infringement of copyright.

For me personally, my own device is made by Netgear - there are many other examples on the market, none of them illegal. I also believe we will never see the day when a movie studio starts taking customer to court who have taken copies of discs they have bought, for their personal user on their own media servers - I'm not talking the use of bit-torrent sites and illegal downloads here, I am talking user such as myself who have bought the disc and copy it for their own purposes.
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It is important to remember that the requirement to have the physical disc in a tray is not kaleidescape's but that of the Blu Ray disc association; kaleidescape has to maintain that requirement to be legal.

Again, yes and no. It is the fact that Kaleidescape provide a disc copying system that has got them in hot water over copyright infringement, and led to the requirement for the physical disc to be in place. Kaleidascape chose to continue to pursue such a system rather than simply supply customers with a playback system and disc copying software. I can only assume their reasons for doing so were two fold in that a) in fairness they wanted to provide a simple to use system that required little in terms of user input, since their main target market contains customers who largely would not want any additional complications, and b) the model allows them to make customers captive since any copied media cannot be transferred to an alternative hardware system.
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We're not talking about 8k for 100 disc capacity, we're talking about 4k to get ALL the benefits of the kaleidescape OS and user interface with 100 disc capacity AND a 320 disc storage vault for disc verification and MUCH faster import of content than one disc at a time. (For that additional 4k. The DV700 is normally 6k by itself) the promo is 10k worth of stuff for 8k...that's a deal.

What other server system, legal for BD or not, has the ability to pop in 100+ discs of BD,DVD, or CD and walk away while it auto-imports and gets ALL the metadata, aspect ratio info, genre, etc.

Kaleidescape is more than JUST a server system: the app where you can pick your comtent with the flick of a finger, automatically sets aspec ratio properly to output for anamorphic lens use, cues for the BRIC...

More capacity with the same 320 disc storage and one zone playback (with the ability to expand to as many zones as you want) starts at 17k for a 1 RU server plus M700.

Cinema One allows people that could never garner the kaleidescape experience to do so without breaking the bank.

Another situation where one has to consider the whole package- hardware, software, support, and user experience.

Oh, and it should be mentioned that there will most likely be an eventual trade-up program in place for people that want to migrate from Cinema One to Premier (the original lineup of products) systems.

Dan

There is no denying the that Kaleidascape is a very slick system. The user interface is gorgeous, and the automation of it is what every budding media server owner dreams of, rather than the effort laden messing about we often have to take to get things looking and working even 75% of what the Kaleidascape offers.

From my on perspective, I have no hesitation in investing in good quality high end kit, if it offers me something special, and the performance matches the price (its the reason I invested in a Datasat RS20i after all). However for me, the Kaleidescape system just doesn't offer an effective value proposition as it currently stands. The need to insert a disc at every play, or pay an additional $4k for a device that does nothing more than save you the trouble of doing so, does not provide the necessary value in my opinion, whilst having my own imported media collection tied to Kaleidascape for ever more, or even worse paid for downloaded content lost forever if I change to a rival hardware platform in the future, is not a viable proposition.
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post #22 of 199 Old 08-02-2013, 02:35 PM
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Unless I missed it. The player doesn't support Bluray 3D?


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post #23 of 199 Old 08-02-2013, 03:02 PM - Thread Starter
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you must not be married ..........


However for me, the Kaleidescape system just doesn't offer an effective value proposition as it currently stands. The need to insert a disc at every play, or pay an additional $4k for a device that does nothing more than save you the trouble of doing so, does not provide the necessary value in my opinion, whilst having my own imported media collection tied to Kaleidascape for ever more, or even worse paid for downloaded content lost forever if I change to a rival hardware platform in the future, is not a viable proposition.

That and a Savant automation system are the only pieces of audio/video equipment my wife has approved of me purchasing in 37 years of marriage;

and that is after buying a boat load of jewelry over the years.
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post #24 of 199 Old 08-02-2013, 03:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adidino View Post

Unless I missed it. The player doesn't support Bluray 3D?

No it does not .............. yet.
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post #25 of 199 Old 08-02-2013, 03:26 PM
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Quote:
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you must not be married ..........


However for me, the Kaleidescape system just doesn't offer an effective value proposition as it currently stands. The need to insert a disc at every play, or pay an additional $4k for a device that does nothing more than save you the trouble of doing so, does not provide the necessary value in my opinion, whilst having my own imported media collection tied to Kaleidascape for ever more, or even worse paid for downloaded content lost forever if I change to a rival hardware platform in the future, is not a viable proposition.

That and a Savant automation system are the only pieces of audio/video equipment my wife has approved of me purchasing in 37 years of marriage;

and that is after buying a boat load of jewelry over the years.

Ha! Indeed I am married - and I honestly can't think of one hi-fi or home cinema purchase she has approved of either. To be honest its probably best she's not involved in the 'approval' process! wink.gif She has 'allowed' me to have a dedicated cinema room though (her suggestion), so its not all bad! cool.gif
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post #26 of 199 Old 08-10-2013, 03:43 PM
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I have a lot of movie's on my server and it is MKV/MP4/MOV and ISO files
but can i importer all my files? smile.gif
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post #27 of 199 Old 08-10-2013, 04:24 PM
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The requirement to insert the BD disc does really make the K value proposition really poor.
When I can pick up a Dune/NeoTV/etc for less than $500 and then add in an almost infinite amount of network storage myself and not have to be in-convenienced with the "insert disc" thing, why in gods name would I want to put down $8K for the K solution?

After all-the K is all about convenience/luxury.

I suppose the K store could add a little value, but depending on what they charge per title (presumably just a bit less than a BD disc), this may not be enough.

Now, if you have more money than you could ever spend..........
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post #28 of 199 Old 08-10-2013, 04:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by qz3fwd View Post

...........Now, if you have more money than you could ever spend..........


.......then you buy a K 3U Server (or 2 or 3), and a couple/few of M700 disc Vaults.smile.gif



Seriously, the C1 is intended for those with a small to moderate DVD collection that want the incredible K user interface. The BR capability was included for those that want to use the same interface with their BR collection, whether they buy a vault or not, but of course adding a vault negates the need to insert a BR disc for playback.

As implied by you last sentence, value is relative.........



Jim
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post #29 of 199 Old 11-08-2013, 12:38 PM
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I am interested in the bundle but cannot max out 200 blu rays after spending 12K.

I will watch closely to see if they will come with a enhanced version by summer of 2014. I also looked at M700 and not sure why not to buy that for $6K then invest $8K in this. If any one can tell me what this does that M700 cannot do, it will be helpful.

Cheers

Raj
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post #30 of 199 Old 11-08-2013, 01:31 PM
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M700 is a zone player and 320 Disc blu-ray vault- Z E R O storage. You need at least the 1RU server in addition to the M700; that server is 10k, or 17k total for the minimum Premier-level system. This was what I was posting before. Cinema One is a storage and playback machine with limited storage for a modest budget.

It's the gateway to Kaleidescape user experience.

Dan

Dan Francis
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C'SEED Entertainment Systems GMBH

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