The Mother of All Oppo OEM's... - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 25 Old 08-11-2013, 01:30 AM - Thread Starter
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There are several high end players based on the Oppo.



The Ayre, Theta, and Goldmund are all very nice but have you seen the MSB?

GalaxyClock_Lit_Press3.pdf 371k .pdf file

Special separate power supplies ...



You could put 4 of their dacs and a master clock and the thing would be superhigh end.









And do not forget.... The Active Isolation Base for the MSB Stack. 9,100.



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post #2 of 25 Old 08-11-2013, 08:57 AM
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I'll be auditioning one of these shortly. This would be the ultimate transport to use as digital input into Trinnov (or datasat). It's like an Oppo with Vanity digi out board on steroids, but with the following three advantages:

- Superior clocking (all the way up to galaxy clock upgradeable)
- Superior powersupply (up to Diamond powerbase level)
- Backed by established manufacturer (i.e. not a DIY mod)
- Oppo 103 based.

For a cost no object project this is the player to get.

I will keep it if the 2 channel audio streaming using the I2S pro interface is equivalent or superior to the CAPS 3.0 with UBS interface into the DAC.
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post #3 of 25 Old 08-11-2013, 09:36 AM
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This would be the ultimate transport to use as digital input into Trinnov (or datasat). It's like an Oppo with Vanity digi out board on steroids, but with the following three advantages:

How would you get full resolution multi-channel into a Trinnov/Datasat other than HDMI?

Note these statements from the MSB site:

This transport has been designed for optimum performance using the MSB Network connection to any MSB DAC.

This transport is designed for 2 channel playback. (A multi-channel product is under development). In this stereo version, our most intensive processing and highest quality sound is presented on the front two channels.


They do say:

[Audio] First, it is output on the S/PDIF digital outputs. As PCM is limited to 24 bits, formats over 24 bits are processed and the best quality 24 bit signal is provided. These PCM outputs can be attached to any DAC. Four digital outputs are provided in every possible connector type. Alternatively, full resolution jitter-free outputs are provided via the Pro I2S Input Option , the proprietary MSB connection method between all our products.

Full resolution is provided via I2S but there is no indication that it is provided via PCM.
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post #4 of 25 Old 08-11-2013, 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by GGA View Post

They do say:

[Audio] First, it is output on the S/PDIF digital outputs. As PCM is limited to 24 bits, formats over 24 bits are processed and the best quality 24 bit signal is provided. These PCM outputs can be attached to any DAC. Four digital outputs are provided in every possible connector type. Alternatively, full resolution jitter-free outputs are provided via the Pro I2S Input Option , the proprietary MSB connection method between all our products.

Full resolution is provided via I2S but there is no indication that it is provided via PCM.

I don't get this claim. 24bits is in fact the limit of any AES/SPDIF transceiver chip. But there's a reason for that. There is no digital audio standard that goes beyond 24 bits. Sure I2S can carry higher word widths but there is no program material that supports more than 24 bits.

The I2S link however does lower jitter considerably. It's multiwire and distance limted but for a few feet it does offer an advantage. But I wouldn't expect widespread use of it.

Note too that the SPDIF ground loop problem MSB outlined in there literature is not an issue with balanced AES, The shield only serves as an RFI shield. You can run an AES balanced interface in just a twisted pair which is transformer coupled at both ends (at least it's supposed to be per AES spec but not always is).

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post #5 of 25 Old 08-11-2013, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by GGA View Post

How would you get full resolution multi-channel into a Trinnov/Datasat other than HDMI?

Note these statements from the MSB site:

This transport has been designed for optimum performance using the MSB Network connection to any MSB DAC.

This transport is designed for 2 channel playback. (A multi-channel product is under development). In this stereo version, our most intensive processing and highest quality sound is presented on the front two channels.


They do say:

[Audio] First, it is output on the S/PDIF digital outputs. As PCM is limited to 24 bits, formats over 24 bits are processed and the best quality 24 bit signal is provided. These PCM outputs can be attached to any DAC. Four digital outputs are provided in every possible connector type. Alternatively, full resolution jitter-free outputs are provided via the Pro I2S Input Option , the proprietary MSB connection method between all our products.

Full resolution is provided via I2S but there is no indication that it is provided via PCM.

The new UMT plus has AES/EBU digital output for the mains, and 3 x S/PDIF digi out for center, LFE and surround channels. None if this is downsampled. The old transport also had MSB NEtwork connection. The new transport has I2S Pro.
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post #6 of 25 Old 08-11-2013, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Glimmie View Post

I don't get this claim. 24bits is in fact the limit of any AES/SPDIF transceiver chip. But there's a reason for that. There is no digital audio standard that goes beyond 24 bits. Sure I2S can carry higher word widths but there is no program material that supports more than 24 bits.

The I2S link however does lower jitter considerably. It's multiwire and distance limted but for a few feet it does offer an advantage. But I wouldn't expect widespread use of it.

Note too that the SPDIF ground loop problem MSB outlined in there literature is not an issue with balanced AES, The shield only serves as an RFI shield. You can run an AES balanced interface in just a twisted pair which is transformer coupled at both ends (at least it's supposed to be per AES spec but not always is).

For 2 channel, I can compare running AES/EBU into my Trinnov, digital out into my MSB DAC, with running the transport directly into the DAC over I2S. May be the benefits of DRC will trump the benefits of the lower jitter I2S interface. We'll see. First, I need to confirm the transport sounds better or equivalent in streaming mode than the CAPS 3.0 with USB.
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post #7 of 25 Old 08-12-2013, 08:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Here is the NEW $36,000 Goldmund. EIDOS 36U it is an Oppo95 based unit with better power supply, better Isolation and Multizon Multiregion.





Conspicously missing from the picture is the USB connection, if that is the case, WTF?
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post #8 of 25 Old 08-13-2013, 06:04 AM
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Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post

Here is the NEW $36,000 Goldmund. EIDOS 36U it is an Oppo95 based unit with better power supply, better Isolation and Multizon Multiregion.

Conspicously missing from the picture is the USB connection, if that is the case, WTF?

This machine is a complete joke. $6,000 casework and industrial design, $18,000 dealer margin, $10,000 Goldmund operating margin and $1,000 electronics, and $1,000 R&D recovery. Catering to the HT snob with a taste for kitsch and golden faucets in his HT bathroom.

As a 2 channel analog source I predict it cannot hold a candle to the $5K Ayre c-5xe which has done far more work on optimizing the platform for 2 channel playback. As an HDMI transport there is only so much you can do to improve the base Oppo platform (mainly improve power), and I suspect it will be at the level of the $4K Theta Compli Blu. As a MCH analog source, I see absolutely nothing there that suggests it will best the Marantz UD9004 (not that it matters, because MCH analog sources are a dead product category). If they wanted to introduce at least some innovation at these insane pricepoints, they should have implemented ARC (Audio rate control) in the player and their processor to address fundamental HDMI limitations, or an equivalent proprietary technology to slave the transport to the downstream clock.

The MSB UMT plus may be expensive, but it is lightyears ahead of this. Not to mention the fact that it has the MCH S/PDIF outputs allowing you to drive a Trinnov or Datasat digitally.
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post #9 of 25 Old 08-13-2013, 06:54 AM
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I'm very interested in the MSB UMT. I wait eagerly for your review of it Edorr.
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post #10 of 25 Old 08-14-2013, 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by djnickuk View Post

I'm very interested in the MSB UMT. I wait eagerly for your review of it Edorr.

Just got word it will be a few weeks before I can get my hands on a demo unit. Meanwhile, I have mothballed my HTPC project....
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post #11 of 25 Old 08-16-2013, 09:33 PM - Thread Starter
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It's official I will be using different variants of MSB stacks in all upcoming projects, initial system order went in today.



This is going in with THE Cinema Reference that was modded the older UMT cannot take all the bells an whistles as the new but there is a need for it, then the UMT plus has the very very good master clock, not the insane one buut very good one.


When you guys say that the Transports can be powered by the diamond base, is really with the secondary output which is not very good, you need the signature power supply if you do not have dacs in your stack.



This feeds 16 channels analog bal

The Quested system feeds:






CINERMAX MC PENTHOUSE CABS Model.pdf 151k .pdf file
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post #12 of 25 Old 08-17-2013, 06:10 AM
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Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post

It's official I will be using different variants of MSB stacks in all upcoming projects, initial system order went in today.



This is going in with THE Cinema Reference that was modded the older UMT cannot take all the bells an whistles as the new but there is a need for it, then the UMT plus has the very very good master clock, not the insane one buut very good one.

Nice! Why do you need two transports in the system? What is the $6,000 custom engineering on the umt transport?
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When you guys say that the Transports can be powered by the diamond base, is really with the secondary output which is not very good, you need the signature power supply if you do not have dacs in your stack.

I refuse to fork out an additional $3,500 for additional powerbase and will use the second output of my diamond PB. I am thinking of getting the $600 base PB to power the video circuitry separate from digital/audio circuitry. The UMT Plus has two power inputs. May be you should consider this as well, since video is mission critical for your application you could consider getting two signature powersupplies for the UMT (one for video and one for audio). At this point another $3,500 is a rounding error - it may improve both audio and video a notch.
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This feeds 16 channels analog bal


I presume these are poweramps, fed by the ADA Reference DACs?
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post #13 of 25 Old 08-17-2013, 04:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Two transports one for audio one for video, one is optimized with one custom internal gold ribbon cable , yes i pulled all stops on the USB department, but I would have to shoot you if I gave you the details, plus the usual silver wiring ,besides other board improvements in the anti-vibration and isolation dept. :-)

Oppo Surgery.



Yes these are the quested power amps that are oemed from the most respected studio class AB amplifier the MC2 Audio.



XTA is the crossover OEM'er their side-chain limiter circuit seems well suited for me particularly as I am one of those system designers that has blown the drivers in client's systems.Mea Culpa



Their crossover is also used extensively by Roger Quested. The man is a firm believer in Bass Management and he mixes the LOW FREQUENCIES from all channels into the 10 woofers along with the LFE.

The goal in the audio here was to get a bit more of an audiophile sound whilst saving money by using PRO SOUND. I truly expect this array to sound better than my previous all Horn incursions. I do like the sound of ADAM's Ribbons and I chose Quested Ribbon Speakers simply because my favorite demo soundtrack (one with which I have seen an A list of Rappers, Movie Stars and Models get bowled over in 4D meaning 3D plus motion) DESPICABLE ME ROLLER COASTER CHAPTER 13.
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post #14 of 25 Old 08-17-2013, 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post

Two transports one for audio one for video, one is optimized with internal gold ( i puled all stops on the mother of all USB connections but I would have to shoot you if I told you) and silver wiring ,besides other secret improvements anti-vibration and isolation RELATED.:-)

Yes these are the quested power amps that are oem of the most respected studio class b powerhouse the MC2 Audio.

Wouldn't this theater will be used mainly for movies video, with BR as the source. Would you spin the BR discs in the video optimized player (based on old UMT)?

This is puzzling, because the old UMT does not have the MCH S/PDIF - AES/EBU outputs, and I assume you would be running these MCH digital outputs into the digital input on the ADA reference. So for MCH Audio / Video you need the UTM plus.

If the modded old UMT is used for video, what do you need the (UMT plus) audio player for? 2 channel audio / MCH audio only sources (SACD)?

Also, if you pulled all the stops on the video player, why not use the newer UMT plus as the base platform? The older UMT is based on the Oppo93, and the newer on the Oppo103. The latter has better video chips. You need to put a lot of gold into an older generation player to compensate for the advances in digital video processing of a few year, embedded in the latest chipsets.

May be video player one spins the disc, and send the audio to player 2 via MSB network, which then reclocks and send to the digi outs? So both players are active playing a BR..
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post #15 of 25 Old 08-17-2013, 05:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Maybe the old UMT will have the vanity 4 spdif mod out in it, since it cannot have the MSB propietray master board to which you attach the clock,and then take full advantage of the DACS etc etc.

BTW I appreciate your extremely generous guidance that I have heeded and all but I need to be a bit reticent because a profitable Hi End Blu-ray Player is a sought after commodity in my business and this gents is it: a la carte BD, you could end up surpassing the GOLDMUND giant table's price tag with these MSB stacks, and the beauty of it is that it is a great value too.

So whilst as a thread starter I feel the obligation to contribute information, I am already exhibiting symptoms of groin-algia , oh that "just being kicked in the nuts" feeling you get when you realize we are in shark tank full of custom installation hacks that play golf on weekends and come morning first of the week they are finding ways to copy other peoples ideas.biggrin.gif It is a proven fact.. So I am reticent and I will send you a pm to explain some.

The discs will be playing on the new UMT+ with it's better image, sporting the 5 grand clock, going in 4 spdif into the TRINNOV 8 channel centronics connector. I do hope that the Trinnov has 75 ohm resistance on the main L+R, because that is what the MSB puts out.

We are just beginning to scratch the surface here, I will be pitching SKOLL 2.0 where I will go 8 digital into Datasat and just as I come out of the processor because it will be a Neox/PLIIZ gig we will have 6 dacs, but only 2 of those need to be platimum the other 4 the next level down.
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post #16 of 25 Old 08-17-2013, 05:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by edorr View Post


May be video player one spins the disc, and send the audio to player 2 via MSB network, which then reclocks and send to the digi outs? So both players are active playing a BR..

Food for thought, i'll run it up the pole. I can do that with hdmi at 48, I am thinking if the MSB network plug would allow to do that in 8 channel 96 (I think msb network is only stereo).
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post #17 of 25 Old 08-19-2013, 04:53 PM
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going in 4 spdif into the TRINNOV 8 channel centronics connector. I do hope that the Trinnov has 75 ohm resistance on the main L+R, because that is what the MSB puts out.

The stock UMT+ sends out the L/R via XLR (via AES I assume) and remaining six channels are sent via S/PDIF on RCA. I thought the Trinnov uses a DB25 input connector for 110 ohm AES. I hope you do not run into any problems mixing AES and S/PDIF. With my RS20i the clock is received only on channels 1-2. With my modified JVB Oppo I once tried an external clock on channels 1-2 which also converted the S/PDIF to AES but the RS20i would not lock on for multichannel.

I read on the MSB website that they will be releasing a UMT dedicated to multichannel.
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post #18 of 25 Old 08-19-2013, 07:58 PM
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Originally Posted by GGA View Post

The stock UMT+ sends out the L/R via XLR (via AES I assume) and remaining six channels are sent via S/PDIF on RCA. I thought the Trinnov uses a DB25 input connector for 110 ohm AES. I hope you do not run into any problems mixing AES and S/PDIF. With my RS20i the clock is received only on channels 1-2. With my modified JVB Oppo I once tried an external clock on channels 1-2 which also converted the S/PDIF to AES but the RS20i would not lock on for multichannel.

I read on the MSB website that they will be releasing a UMT dedicated to multichannel.

The Trinnov works just fine with JVB modded Oppo and Vanity93 modded Oppo with S/PDIF to AES/EBU cable. I assume the MSB UMT + transport wont have any issues either

Where did you read about the MCH transport on the MSB website? I'd be interested to learn more. The only way to "dedicate" a transport to MCH, is to build an optimized HDMI transport, because anything that puts out 4 x 2 channel can be used for 2 channel as well, and is obviously not dedicated to MCH. I actually floated the idea of such an HDMI transport with MSB myself, but they mentioned issues with video / audio synch / latency as a potential problem.
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post #19 of 25 Old 08-20-2013, 10:53 AM
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Originally Posted by GGA View Post

The stock UMT+ sends out the L/R via XLR (via AES I assume) and remaining six channels are sent via S/PDIF on RCA. I thought the Trinnov uses a DB25 input connector for 110 ohm AES. I hope you do not run into any problems mixing AES and S/PDIF. With my RS20i the clock is received only on channels 1-2. With my modified JVB Oppo I once tried an external clock on channels 1-2 which also converted the S/PDIF to AES but the RS20i would not lock on for multichannel.

I read on the MSB website that they will be releasing a UMT dedicated to multichannel.

It's not ideal at all from an electrical perspective but does work over short distances. However at the price range and caliber of clients Peter works at, he may want to consider a proper level converter.

On the external clock, I'm not surprised at all it didn't work. A clock needs to either be the master reference for the playback device or locked to it's internal clock. You can't just substitute an external clock as it will not be locked to the data stream. A "re-clocker" can smooth out jitter to an extent but it must be able to lock to the source clock.

As for a master clock mod, A BluRay player is a video device that just happens to do audio as well. Meaning that the clock chain is designed for the video section and the audio clocks are derived from the video clocks - as they must be. To put an external clock on a BluRay, you need to start at the top of the chain and that's why you don't see too many mods for that.

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post #20 of 25 Old 08-20-2013, 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Glimmie View Post

It's not ideal at all from an electrical perspective but does work over short distances. However at the price range and caliber of clients Peter works at, he may want to consider a proper level converter.

I had a proper pro-audio level converter, and $1000 digital cable going in and $1000 cable going out. Waste of money. No audbile difference with the $30 cable terminated coax to XLR.
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As for a master clock mod, A BluRay player is a video device that just happens to do audio as well. Meaning that the clock chain is designed for the video section and the audio clocks are derived from the video clocks - as they must be. To put an external clock on a BluRay, you need to start at the top of the chain and that's why you don't see too many mods for that.

The Oppo103 based UMT does just that for the audio with an internal clock (upgradable to Galaxy or Femto140 level). The Vanity93 board also reclocks the audio data stream.
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post #21 of 25 Old 08-20-2013, 11:52 AM
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I had a proper pro-audio level converter, and $1000 digital cable going in and $1000 cable going out. Waste of money. No audbile difference with the $30 cable terminated coax to XLR.

Well if it works reliably then it's fine. This was discussed before. But when you install very expensive systems in other countries, you may want to do it right for reliability reasons. I fully agree the $1000 cables were a waste of money. What were they supposed to accomplish?
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The Oppo103 based UMT does just that for the audio with an internal clock (upgradable to Galaxy or Femto140 level). The Vanity93 board also reclocks the audio data stream.

Yes it does, but that clock must either be locked to the video system clock or God forbid they buffer and sample rate convert the audio data with a local audio clock. Yes sample rate convert! Even if I run a 48 or 96k stream through a non synchronous device with 48 or 96k out, that's still sample rate conversion because the samples will not align if unlocked. I would hope they are just locking the new local clock through a low pass filter for jitter reduction. Because sample rate conversion would surely be much worse sonically than what ever jitter is on the Oppo clock.

It is quite common for these after market modifications in audio gear, video gear, automotive, and other technologies to actually degrade performance rather than improve it. Lacking measurements as most of these mods do leaves only the subjective dribble to measure performance.

There are more charlatan after market clock mods than anything else. Good PLL design is tough. I have done it professionally. Most of these garage shops never come close.

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post #22 of 25 Old 08-20-2013, 12:02 PM
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Well if it works reliably then it's fine. This was discussed before. But when you install very expensive systems in other countries, you may want to do it right for reliability reasons. I fully agree the $1000 cables were a waste of money. What were they supposed to accomplish?

No idea. One of these sounded very good between my offramp 5 and a perfectwave dac (now gone). Using two and a S/PDIF to AES/EBU converter did nothing for my Oppo digital out to Trinnov connection. To me digital audio is complete voodoo. Some things work, some don't. Every expert has a different explanation - I tend to ignore them. I just buy stuff, rotate it through my system and if it works it stays, if it does not it goes.
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Yes it does, but that clock must either be locked to the video system clock or God forbid they buffer and sample rate convert the audio data with a local audio clock. Yes sample rate convert! Even if I run a 48 or 96k stream through a non synchronous device with 48 or 96k out, that's still sample rate conversion because the samples will not align if unlocked. I would hope they are just locking the new local clock through a low pass filter for jitter reduction. Because sample rate conversion would surely be much worse sonically than what ever jitter is on the Oppo clock.

I have to assume the fine folks at MSB know what they are doing, and are not sticking a $10K clock (optional) in a modded Oppo if it degrades sound.
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There are more charlatan after market clock mods than anything else. Good PLL design is tough. I have done it professionally. Most of these garage shops never come close.

The only "garage operation" I have dealt with is audiopraise, who produce the Vanity93 board. It works beautifully and leaves the stock Oppo in the dust.
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post #23 of 25 Old 08-20-2013, 12:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Oh how I would love to have you consult for the next project of mine, wanna barter for a CINETAL DOLBY 3D COLOR Processor? they can use that at your shop. Im serious.
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post #24 of 25 Old 08-20-2013, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by edorr View Post

No idea. One of these sounded very good between my offramp 5 and a perfectwave dac (now gone). Using two and a S/PDIF to AES/EBU converter did nothing for my Oppo digital out to Trinnov connection. To me digital audio is complete voodoo. Some things work, some don't. Every expert has a different explanation - I tend to ignore them. I just buy stuff, rotate it through my system and if it works it stays, if it does not it goes.

It's not voodoo. The reason the converter made no difference is that the mis-matched cable impedance did not cause sufficient corruption to the data stream to make any difference in the recovered audio. That is the whole point of digital signal transmission. But there is "cliff effect". In analog we can see or hear degradations starting to mount. With a digital interface (which is still an analog interface) we don't know how close we are to the failure point, the cliff. Once you corrupt the data, it fails completly, that is ticks, pops, and dropouts. bad digital cables or interfaces do not induce noise, alter frequency response, alter soundstage, etc. A cable can cause increased jitter which will produce very subtle effects at 24 bits but I doubt it's audible.

The "sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't" comes from throwing money at the problem and not addressing the root cause.
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I have to assume the fine folks at MSB know what they are doing, and are not sticking a $10K clock (optional) in a modded Oppo if it degrades sound.
The only "garage operation" I have dealt with is audiopraise, who produce the Vanity93 board. It works beautifully and leaves the stock Oppo in the dust.

But why pay all this money for these upgrades and then run a kludged mismatched interface? OK, so you can't hear any difference but yet you are worried enough about your clock stability to spend $10K. That impedance mismatch IS aggravating jitter much more than any "cheap" cable does, I promises you that. Does it matter in a simple interconnect like this? No. But then why bother with the clock upgrade if you are willing to accept inaudible jitter?

With all due respect, you are buying labels here. The professional SPDIF/AES converter probably did not have a review in 6moons or a bunch of fancy audiophile text surrounding it. But that doesn't mean it's useless.

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post #25 of 25 Old 08-20-2013, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Glimmie View Post

But why pay all this money for these upgrades and then run a kludged mismatched interface? OK, so you can't hear any difference but yet you are worried enough about your clock stability to spend $10K. That impedance mismatch IS aggravating jitter much more than any "cheap" cable does, I promises you that. Does it matter in a simple interconnect like this? No. But then why bother with the clock upgrade if you are willing to accept inaudible jitter?

I'm currently using an modded Oppo which has S/PDIF out for mains. However, the UMT + I'll be trying soon has AES/EBU for the mains, which also provides the master clock for the downstream processor, so there will be no more impedance mismatch!

Also, I'm not buying the clock upgrade for the transport. I have the (cheaper Femto 140) clock upgrade in the downstream MSB DAC, which operates in asynchronous reclocking mode when I play 2 channel, and synchronous mode when I play MCH (the reclocking delay screws up channel synch). For the transport I'll stick with the standard clock, which is of course an upgrade relative to the stock Oppo.
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Originally Posted by Glimmie View Post

The "sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't" comes from throwing money at the problem and not addressing the root cause.

I'll let the manufacturers address root causes, and buy their stuff if I have reason to believe it works. Sometimes it does, sometimes it does not.
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Originally Posted by Glimmie View Post

With all due respect, you are buying labels here. The professional SPDIF/AES converter probably did not have a review in 6moons or a bunch of fancy audiophile text surrounding it. But that doesn't mean it's useless.

Since it did not improve sound quality for me it was useless to me. It was the Z-systems Z 8.8 - also serves as a digital input switch. If you're interested it is for sale.
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