Joe Kane proposes bigger screens for 4K as closer seating distances aren't the answer.. - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 11 Old 08-14-2013, 06:42 AM - Thread Starter
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In this video below, Joe Kane says that we need larger screens, not closer seating distances because it doesn't matter how close you sit, you won't see the benefit of 4K displays.

In one test, he says that no one could see the encode errors until the screen was 6 feet wide (doesn't say what the seating distance is), but does say that even if they went closer to the screen when it was smaller, they couldn't see the errors. The screen had to be physically bigger regardless of seating distance.

That strikes me as odd with respect to visual acuity unless in his tests the screen brightness (and/or other things) played a part, or if scale really does make a difference to visual acuity. In which case, many people won't have rooms big enough for 4K...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=0ZqhA3iIHm4

What does anyone else think? He does say that he has his own position and that "a lot of people don't like the position I'm taking", which I can understand as it does seem as if something odd is going on if what he says is true.

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post #2 of 11 Old 08-14-2013, 06:52 AM
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Even before 4K, it's always been a given that bigger is better unless your room is too small and you can't so something so proportionally large. My room is 17' 6" wide and I have a 14' wide screen (with masking hardware, The frame is actually width was 17')biggrin.gif

I see so many folks with these large rooms yet choose to add smallish screens relative to their screen wall. Like putting a 10' wide screen in a room with a screen wall width of 15' - 20' and plenty of depth to the room to support a larger screen. Don't get it...

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post #3 of 11 Old 08-14-2013, 08:11 AM - Thread Starter
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I have to agree with you - a screen that only partially fills the width doesn't look as aesthetically pleasing to me as a wider one. Of course, unless you have dark walls, the closer the screen is to a boundary the more chance of light reflections and reduced ANSI contrast, but that's another story smile.gif

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post #4 of 11 Old 08-14-2013, 02:01 PM
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I have a 23' wide wall and a 118" wide screen. Unfortunately I only have a 14' throw from lens to screen - can't go much bigger / wider screen wise. That said, I'll bet with my 12'6" seating distance, I could see the difference if I had 4K, and could sit a little closer If I do sit closer or try and makea bigger picturenow, I can start to see pixel structure. Anyway, the remained of my screen wall is dark velvet curtains and speakers including wide channel speakers. Works very well.

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post #5 of 11 Old 08-18-2013, 04:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Lightfoot View Post

In this video below, Joe Kane says that we need larger screens, not closer seating distances because it doesn't matter how close you sit, you won't see the benefit of 4K displays.

In one test, he says that no one could see the encode errors until the screen was 6 feet wide (doesn't say what the seating distance is), but does say that even if they went closer to the screen when it was smaller, they couldn't see the errors. The screen had to be physically bigger regardless of seating distance.

That strikes me as odd with respect to visual acuity unless in his tests the screen brightness (and/or other things) played a part, or if scale really does make a difference to visual acuity. In which case, many people won't have rooms big enough for 4K...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=0ZqhA3iIHm4

What does anyone else think? He does say that he has his own position and that "a lot of people don't like the position I'm taking", which I can understand as it does seem as if something odd is going on if what he says is true.

Gary

Gary. The minimum 6 ft width was for 1080p, not 4K. For 4K, the minimum width is slightly over 10 ft width.

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post #6 of 11 Old 08-18-2013, 08:07 AM
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Joe is the best and I would like to see two groups of randomized observers looking for the same issues and then seeing if they could find them but not using observers who were coached on the errors then looked until they saw them as the screen got bigger. The effect of knowing, then studying ,then observing ,then reporting temporally has many flaws from a validity perspective.

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post #7 of 11 Old 08-18-2013, 09:08 AM
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I think we are slightly misinterpreting what Joe is saying. I don't think he is saying 4K must have a minimum screen 10 foot screen size to see a difference. I think he is saying that you need a 10 foot minimum size screen to get the full benefits of 4K.

I am limited in screen size to a 103" diagonal screen due to the size of my room. I have had the Sony 1000ES for almost a year now. I definitely saw a huge picture quality difference from my previous 1080p Runco projector - and still see a fantastic picture quality of the upscaled 1080p input.

So I do get the benefit - maybe not the full benefit, but still enough to be satisfied. I would love to have a larger screen but without major construction on my house, it is not possible. I have never regretted buying the 1000ES.

Now Mark might say I am only getting the placebo effect - only think I have a 4K image in my mind.smile.gif
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post #8 of 11 Old 08-18-2013, 09:27 AM
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I understand what he is saying and don't disagree with the idea that a larger screen is the right thing. My point is the way it was discussed regarding how they concluded that sitting closer didn't matter but instead only exceeding six feet screen size. If the evaluation was reported the way they actually implemented the test one can't make the conclusion with this sort of certainty. The conclusion may well be correct but the way they came to it is flawed. One would need at least two groups one sitting closer and closer and one with screens getting larger and larger then compare the point at which they could perceive the encoding errors.

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post #9 of 11 Old 08-18-2013, 10:46 PM
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I think JK was saying for post 4K work, mastering, editing yada yada, one needed that 10ft screen if one didn't want to miss errors. Conversely, the larger the screen beyond that the easier to see the errors and something the film industry wouln.t want, obvious errors viewed by the audience. JK was lobbying for 4k mastering on screens at least 10 ft wide so that guys like Art won't see errors on their 14 ft wide screens assuming Art someday upgrades to a 4k projector.

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post #10 of 11 Old 08-20-2013, 06:43 PM
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Speaking about 4K who in this forum has A) a sony server or B) odemax or C) the really expensive sony server that comes with the 84.


Do you guys think that with an edid spoofer like dvi detective from geffen one can go to Magnolia and spoof a SONY 4k 65's edid and then be able to use the player elsewhere?.
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post #11 of 11 Old 08-21-2013, 07:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post

Speaking about 4K who in this forum has A) a sony server or B) odemax or C) the really expensive sony server that comes with the 84.


Do you guys think that with an edid spoofer like dvi detective from geffen one can go to Magnolia and spoof a SONY 4k 65's edid and then be able to use the player elsewhere?.

The Sony FMP- X1 4K server will only operate connected to Sony's 55" and 65" 4K TVs with the new HDCP 2.2, and for the time being only to those TVs that are situated in the US by dual internet verification where both the player and TV are connected simultaneously to the internet.

The expensive 4K server from Dell will only operate connected to the Sony 84"~4K TV situated in the US.

If you manage to get around these issues, which means that if you want to operate this outside of the US also requires a proxy server to fool the Sony system into thinking you are in the US, then you are good to go. wink.gif

Odemax/Redray is not fully in operation yet, so only some few selected owners can download movies.
The Redray players has some stored content that can be played back to any HDMI device, but it seems like Red has only shipped a few of the ordered player to some selected customers.
Contact them and see if they are willing to include you in the Beta testing.

Expecting more news about Odemax/Redray at IBC or CEDIA*.
(*where Red for the first time has a booth).

.
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