Questions for Surround/Trinnov experts pls: when you add speakers, do you reduce volume? - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 55 Old 12-01-2013, 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by cannga View Post

And if you are using 7.1 system, what is smpte's recommendation - is there one?
Don't know if they have one, but ITU does:



It's anything goes, as long as your four surrounds are between ±60° and ±150°. In a 7.1 set-up, Trinnov re-maps the side speakers to the ITU spec of ±110°.

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post #32 of 55 Old 12-01-2013, 08:24 PM
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Originally Posted by cannga View Post

As for creating height using Trinnov...
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Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

That is how I see it.  The 2D correction is for speaker layout in the horizontal plane and the 3D is a correction (not so much a generation) in the vertical dimension.

My understanding is more along the line of Kal's; Trinnov corrects to i.e. ITU 7.1, which is a 7 speakers in a plane, and can for example correct a too low/high center speaker by using the L/R to raise/lower the center image.

Apparent height effects are I believe likely due to correcting the speakers' freq and phase errors to create those psychoacoustic perceptions.

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post #33 of 55 Old 12-03-2013, 12:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

The industry will go through a hybrid (channels + objects) approach, like Dolby Atmos, but eventually mixers will probably stop thinking in terms of discrete channels and it will just become habit to place sounds where they want.
Less efficient (since a computer has to constantly calculate how to render the sounds at their intended location using a limited number of speakers) but more precise (since the system is always trying to place sounds at their intended location instead of where your speakers happen to be).
Stereo imaging still comes into play during playback. If a sound effect or dialogue is supposed to image at a location where there is no speaker, then the rendering engine will grab 2 or 3 nearby speakers to phantom image the sound at the intended location. But that already happens nowadays when rendering dialogue on a set-up that doesn't have a centre speaker: the left & right speakers are used to phantom image the dialogue at its intended location (centre of the soundstage).
Probably thousands, not millions. Atmos can juggle over a hundred objects at any given time, but I don't think movie mixes come anywhere close to needing that.

Sanjay, why would object-based surround be more precise, if it still relies on the concept of stereo imaging, just like channel based surround? eg equal sound between left & right speakers means center imaging, more sound on right side shifts sound to the right, etc.?

Is it because object based surround use all the speakers at any given time, say in a 5.1 system, it would use surround right and main left to create sound in middle of room? Whereas channel based surround would only use any 2 at a time, main left and main right, or surround left and surround?

I assume in an object based surround system, for it to work, each speaker's position has to be placed exactly where the processor wants it to be? Or does processor map speaker positions and adjust accordingly.

Have you seen an Atmos mixing console? Does it look it a map on a computer screen and you use something like a mouse to drop the sound object?

Regards, Can
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post #34 of 55 Old 12-03-2013, 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted by cannga View Post

Sanjay, why would object-based surround be more precise, if it still relies on the concept of stereo imaging, just like channel based surround?
Just to be clear, I meant more precise to the intended location.

With a channel-based mix, if a sound is intended to appear directly at your left, then it will be mixed into the left surround channel. Upon playback, this channel will be routed to the left surround speaker. However, there's no guarantee that the left surround speaker will be directly to your side (could be slightly forward or slightly rearward of the listening position). The sound might or might not image where intended. That's what I mean by lack of precision: intended localization is a crap-shoot, at the mercy of where you place your left surround speaker.

With an object-based mix, the sound has metadata attached that describes its vector (directly at your left). Upon playback, the system uses the speaker that is directly at your left side OR (if there is no speaker directly at your side) a combination of nearby speakers to image the sound directly at your left side. Either way, you end up hearing the sound where the mixer intended you to hear it.
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Originally Posted by cannga View Post

I assume in an object based surround system, for it to work, each speaker's position has to be placed exactly where the processor wants it to be? Or does processor map speaker positions and adjust accordingly.
Will depend on how it is implemented for consumers. High end systems might end up using a multi-capsule mic, like Trinnov uses, to precisely map the location of your speakers. Some systems might tell you where to put the speakers (within a few degrees of tolerance). Other decoders might use the honor system, where you manually enter how many degrees from centre all your speakers are (e.g., fronts = ±30°, sides = ±90°, rears = ±150°, etc). Whatever the method, for object-based audio to work precisely, the decoder will have to know where the speakers are in relation to the main listening position.
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Have you seen an Atmos mixing console? Does it look it a map on a computer screen and you use something like a mouse to drop the sound object?
Here is a screen shot of an Atmos plug-in (click image to enlarge). Notice the objects (yellow spheres of varying size) in the virtual theatre. Many of the objects are at locations where there are no speakers.


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post #35 of 55 Old 12-04-2013, 10:00 AM - Thread Starter
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Sanjay, thanks for the succinct/helpful answer & your patience in answering my basic questions. Fascinating frontier for movie sound indeed.

This discussion brings another question that I've not thought of previously: Does channel-based mix use the following type of combination to create phantom image: between main speaker and surround speakers? For example: right main + right surround to create image in between those 2 speakers in the right corner? Or is it strictly between either main l/r, or surround l/r only?

Regards, Can
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post #36 of 55 Old 12-04-2013, 11:20 AM
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Can, I don't know if it is intended or not, but I get plenty of phantom imaging between ALL the speakers in my 7.1 layout; it is especially noticable between the fronts and sides.

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post #37 of 55 Old 12-07-2013, 08:53 AM - Thread Starter
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^^^Thanks Sanjay I will be more mindful and on the look out. If the engineer plans ahead I imagine imaging between left main and right rear could bring sound effect to middle of room!?

Regarding object based mix, the process is extremely complicated obviously, but the "electronic" implementation once they ever agree on a standard would be simple right? It's a "simple" matter of adding one additional codec processing to existing main CPU? Those with 3D ready system select 3D, those without select current 2D codecs?

It's fascinating to see who will win out the 3D audio battle in the consumer's market. I would wager DTS and Dolby over Auro and Atmos, because the former two are already on current Bluray standard. Do you have an opinion on this?

Regards, Can
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post #38 of 55 Old 12-07-2013, 09:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cannga View Post

If the engineer plans ahead I imagine imaging between left main and right rear could bring sound effect to middle of room!?
Sure, every adjacent set of speakers is a stereo pair that can create phantom imaging between them. Whether recording engineers take advantage of this or not will vary by soundtrack.
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Originally Posted by cannga View Post

Regarding object based mix, the process is extremely complicated obviously, but the "electronic" implementation once they ever agree on a standard would be simple right? It's a "simple" matter of adding one additional codec processing to existing main CPU? Those with 3D ready system select 3D, those without select current 2D codecs?
Yup, the fact that they're already doing object oriented audio in movie theatres shows that it can be done. Just a matter of scaling the technology to consumer gear, the way video games have.
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It's fascinating to see who will win out the 3D audio battle in the consumer's market. I would wager DTS and Dolby over Auro and Atmos, because the former two are already on current Bluray standard. Do you have an opinion on this?
I've heard that DTS might be working with Auro, though I'm not sure whether that is for commercial cinema or home theatre (maybe both). And Atmos is Dolby. I don't see why any one has to win, since the market currently supports Dolby and DTS technologies on Blu-ray. The gaming market seems to be doing fine supporting 3 different platforms. Personally, I hope no one company ends up monopolizing object based audio for us consumers (I prefer when there is competition and each company has to out-do the other for our dollars).

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post #39 of 55 Old 12-07-2013, 03:18 PM
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Sure, every adjacent set of speakers is a stereo pair that can create phantom imaging between them. Whether recording engineers take advantage of this or not will vary by soundtrack.

Doesn't that happen automatically any time a sound is panned?

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post #40 of 55 Old 12-07-2013, 10:55 PM
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Doesn't that happen automatically any time a sound is panned?
It should, though you'd be surprised how many systems I've heard that sound like 5 or 7 pools of mono rather than a continuous soundfield with stereophonic imaging.

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post #41 of 55 Old 12-08-2013, 05:42 AM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

It should, though you'd be surprised how many systems I've heard that sound like 5 or 7 pools of mono rather than a continuous soundfield with stereophonic imaging.

But that's not because of the recording engineers, right?

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post #42 of 55 Old 12-08-2013, 08:54 AM
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But that's not because of the recording engineers, right?
It's partly due to set-up, but there is lots of variation in soundtracks. Some have lots of imaging between speakers while others don't. Re-recording engineers are mixing for arrays of surrounds, not for phantom imaging between those arrays (since that's not really possible). So while the pans (you mentioned a couple posts ago) should image between speakers on a good set-up, the amount of phantom imaging (that I mentioned a few posts ago) is dependent on the mix.

When doing an object based mix, the re-recording engineer doesn't know exactly where the speakers will be (or how many there will be) during playback, so that could open itself up to more seamless imaging (since there is as much chance that an object will land where there isn't a speaker than at a location where there is a speaker).

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post #43 of 55 Old 12-08-2013, 03:50 PM
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Interesting; I guess panning isn't as straightforward as I thought, which was that it's gradually reducing the level of a sound in one speaker and increasing it in another.

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post #44 of 55 Old 12-08-2013, 05:39 PM
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Panning between channels is technically straightforward but, if you are mixing using long arrays of surround speakers, what are the chances that you'll take advantage of inter-speaker phantom imaging (the way someone mixing 5.1 music would)?

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post #45 of 55 Old 12-09-2013, 09:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Panning between channels is technically straightforward but, if you are mixing using long arrays of surround speakers, what are the chances that you'll take advantage of inter-speaker phantom imaging (the way someone mixing 5.1 music would)?

Sanjay, is there some reason you've used the word "array" instead of for example, channel or speaker? In a 5.1 mix, there are just 5 channels or 5 speakers, for the engineers to worry about, no?

This discussion is now making me curious about the process. I assume unlike object based mix, channel based mix is more old fashioned with some slider that pans side to side, and front to back?

BTW, I found some examples of front + surround imaging (very obvious but I hadn't thought about it previously to this discussion), not surprisingly they involve flying "things":
Rescue (highly recommended for sound and picture) when the transport airplane lands, it approaches literally in my face (!), the sound pierces through to middle of room, to the point I literally feel like the wind blows my hair sideways tongue.gif. Pretty amazing and I felt this with Netflix streaming only - not even BD is required.
Pearl Harbor lousy movie but the attack on Pearl Harbor has a sequence where planes go through my back to front of screen. I haven't done detailed single channel listening but I am sure this involves back to front panning/imaging as well.

Regards, Can
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post #46 of 55 Old 12-09-2013, 09:42 AM
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Sanjay, is there some reason you've used the word "array" instead of for example, channel or speaker? In a 5.1 mix, there are just 5 channels or 5 speakers, for the engineers to worry about, no?
Most movies are mixed on dubbing stages, which are smaller versions of commercial movie theatres. Each surround channel is played back through ALL the speakers on that side wall and half the speakers on the back wall.




How does a movie mixer judge imaging between speakers when a L-shaped array of speakers is reproducing each surround channel?

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post #47 of 55 Old 12-09-2013, 04:42 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Panning between channels is technically straightforward but, if you are mixing using long arrays of surround speakers, what are the chances that you'll take advantage of inter-speaker phantom imaging (the way someone mixing 5.1 music would)?

Seems like they'd have to go out of their way to avoid panning in that case.

Besides, why wouldn't it work? With an line array the one you're near is the one you hear.

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post #48 of 55 Old 12-09-2013, 05:23 PM
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Seems like they'd have to go out of their way to avoid panning in that case.
They don't avoid panning sounds to the surround field, they just don't hear the phantom imaging we do at home.
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Besides, why wouldn't it work? With an line array the one you're near is the one you hear.
If surround arrays were heard as "one" speaker, with the kind of phantom imaging you normally hear between individual speakers, then Atmos wouldn't need to address each surround speaker individually.

Maybe you and I just have different hearing, but when I'm at a movie theatre I hear very general left-vs-right-vs-back directionality in the surround field. From your comment above, you probably hear it as a single speaker to your left, a single speaker at your right and a single speaker behind you.

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post #49 of 55 Old 12-09-2013, 08:33 PM
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Maybe you and I just have different hearing, but when I'm at a movie theatre I hear very general left-vs-right-vs-back directionality in the surround field. From your comment above, you probably hear it as a single speaker to your left, a single speaker at your right and a single speaker behind you.

I was speaking theoretically, though I admit it's a bit of a leap to assume phantom imaging follows.

I don't hear much surround effect either, but two movies come to mind that I saw when they came quite quite some time ago and add amazing surround.

IIRC it was a now-defunct AMC theater in downtown San Jose, and the m ovies were Saving Private Ryan and A Bug's Life.

In SPR the bullets were whizzing back and forth through the theater and in ABL the big elephant-like bug the other ones ride on flew through the theater from back left to front right.

Oh - perhaps the fact that this happens so seldom is what you meant smile.gif

I wonder how they make that happen.

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post #50 of 55 Old 12-09-2013, 09:49 PM
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...in ABL the big elephant-like bug the other ones ride on flew through the theater from back left to front right.

I wonder how they make that happen.
It's a two step process: first, the sound is decreased in left surround channel and increased in the right front channel; then, your brain does the rest (seeing the direction the of the elephant-like bug makes you think the sound was at the back left of the theatre. Or at least that's how you remember it).

The first time I noticed surround sound in a theatre is when Star Wars came out in 1977. The opening blew me away, being able to hear Princess Leia's ship over my right shoulder before it even appeared on screen. Years later I found out that the Dolby Stereo soundtrack had a mono surround channel that was being played back by every single surround speaker in that theatre. But I swear I heard it coming from the back right corner of the auditorium.

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post #51 of 55 Old 12-10-2013, 12:49 PM
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It's a two step process: first, the sound is decreased in left surround channel and increased in the right front channel...

That takes us back to my original question; is this not simple panning?

How can it be that it's so rarely used: you'd think action movies would be full of it.

Maybe they are, but hard to discern in the over-the-top mayhem that seems to be the norm these days.

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post #52 of 55 Old 12-10-2013, 02:21 PM
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That takes us back to my original question; is this not simple panning?
It is. As I said previously "panning between channels is technically straightforward".
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How can it be that it's so rarely used: you'd think action movies would be full of it.
Why do you feel that it's "so rarely used"?

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post #53 of 55 Old 12-11-2013, 11:54 AM
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Why do you feel that it's "so rarely used"?

Hmm, good question.

I guess I do hear it, but again there always seems to be so much going on at once, so it doesn't stand out like movies I cited.

No doubt a lot of is it that back then it was a more rare experience.

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post #54 of 55 Old 12-12-2013, 07:01 PM - Thread Starter
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One interesting example of how 7.1 could be different from 5.1: Hyde Park on Hudson, same chapter mentioned at beginning of thread, chapter 14, when Missy discovered the President messing with Daisy in the little house in the forrest, at time 1:01:00. Up-conversion by Theta CBIII HD - I listened with all channels off except the surround side and surround rear.

5.1: bird wings flapping as it flies away, the wing sound disappears into thin air.
7.1 up conversion with PLIImovie: the bird now flies distinctly rearward, away from the back of my head and the back wall of my room. Important in the overall scheme of things? No tongue.gif. Spooky and very neat? Yes!

Regards, Can
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post #55 of 55 Old 12-14-2013, 08:35 PM
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I highly recommend people unsure about object based sound formats check out the latest home theatre geeks.

http://twit.tv/show/home-theater-geeks/184

That has to be the best podcast yet in the series. To see Marty and his associate describe the nuts and bolts of their impressive installation was great. Still I do not understand why Scott W had to put 4 torpedoes on the side of 3D video. We must live in 2 different worlds altogether. Because every-time I roll out a new installation I have nothing but increased enthusiasm for 3D and all the benefits it brings to high end home cinema. The glasses comment with the latest feather-light contrast enhancing iterations is obviously made from an insufficiently researched position. That being said the podcast brings wonderful insight into this exciting and soo challenging to integrate (try putting together a room that handles both auro and atmos- and maybe live music too) new arena.



Here is a transformation scene in OZ ( mixed by Marty and co.) played back in a Trinov remapped Quested 13.1 channel system (from Bluray). As the screen opens (and the masking cadently) so does the soundstage, but very interestingly despite the system not being auro the 7.1 mix has enough height information in it where through the use of trinnov remapped height channels not only does the soundstage open horizontally but it is more like a sunroof being opened and the whole thing is a holosonic 3d soundfield. Excellent job!


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