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post #271 of 301 Old 11-23-2014, 08:42 PM
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I did a blind and level matched comparison of the RS20i and an Integra 80.2 and a Marantz 7702. Hardware wise (no room correction enabled) it was a lot closer than I would have imagined. But Dirac on the RS20 made the difference. We compared 2.1 and 7.1 only.

There are many who are willing to pay the extra $20,000 for the improved sound. And there was a time I would have been one of them. A this point in my life, I just won't be one of them. It's a great piece with outstanding sonics, incredible versatility, and can go up to 24 channels (or if you stack them, even more).

The differences with Dirac over Audyssey was easily greater than the differences between a $3000 amp and a $30,000 amp IMO if that helps.

I purchased the 7702. If Datasat decides to have an 80% off sale, I'm all over it

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post #272 of 301 Old 11-25-2014, 08:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by westmd View Post
I did not demo it in the end when I was in England. I send sone pictures of my current room over to a Datasat dealer in the US and verdict was I should rather spend my money first on room treatment.

Secondly there is a German dealer somehow 2 hours away who got the Auro Crux on demo as well as the D&M range. In my opinion it makes more sense to go there and do a one on one comparison between the Crux (LS10) and the more normal priced D&M products.
I was trying to save you some money. Your room would sound a lot better if you fixed some basic design issues like the L/R being in the corners and changed out the ineffective acoustic treatment


I asked Datasat about Dirac on the LS10 and they did not give any indication that they were even thinking about it.

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post #273 of 301 Old 11-25-2014, 08:48 PM
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I did a blind and level matched comparison of the RS20i and an Integra 80.2 and a Marantz 7702. Hardware wise (no room correction enabled) it was a lot closer than I would have imagined. But Dirac on the RS20 made the difference.
It might be interesting to see the difference in the applied EQ between the two. It's a lot easier to measure the electrical paths than the acoustic, but that might be useful, too.

After I calibrated the AV7702, I measured the response of the all the channels to see how it compared with others. The attached is just the right channel. Green is XT32, Violet is Dirac from the AP-20 I had here 3 years ago. They generally agree. The AP-20 used an expensive mic that came with the kit, and for some reason it was not impressed with the tweeters...

I cannot now recall how the AP-20 would sound in comparison. It was unfortunately quite a noisy thing due to the blower inside.

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post #274 of 301 Old 11-26-2014, 12:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
....I cannot now recall how the AP-20 would sound in comparison.....
I do numerous shoot outs because of my tube rolling habbit and have taken to recording them onto a CD: Tube A to CD, tube B to CD, then listen for difference. The CD recording process alters the sound and introduces an unknown, but at least it's a fixed unknown. What's nice about this is that it allows instant A/B comparison, blind or non-blind, and you get to keep it for future comparison. I do this to compare preamp and other audio components as well (take the preamp output straight to record-in). Suggesting as it might be something interesting to do to compare your Classe to the shinny new Denon. I nailed a component's "signature" every time I resort to this; it is saved for when shoot-outs get serious :-).

Regards, Can
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post #275 of 301 Old 11-26-2014, 12:19 AM
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IMHO (& of course) comparison between SSP's is treacherous because of the complexity of sound and the time that you take to unplug the wires, re-plug the wires, etc. Our audio memory is way too fleeting for this type of short term testing. I much prefer either long term ownership, where you use A a long time, then all of sudden switch to B; that first moment of switching speaks volumes; or instant A/B switch as outlined in post above. Both methods have weaknesses but *for me* are a lot more reliable than listen to 1, switch wires, listen to 2. That small difference you hear with these quick switches may turn out to be a world of difference over long term listening.

BTW and to WestMD, this Datasat LS10 if indeed designed by David Kerstetter should be a very good sounding SSP. IMHO, you are not going to hear difference between D&M vs. Datasat by store demos. Only trustworthy way is longer term home demo with speakers and room you are familiar with (and even that is difficult as mentioned above), and unfortunately, sometimes you just have to buy on faith based on history of product, of the designer, and "caliber" (no flame guys) of other end users. If you have the funding and if it has Atmos and will be DTS MDA capable, and rest of your components are of the same class (don't mix this with a $500 speaker), I would go for it over D&M.
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post #276 of 301 Old 12-13-2014, 11:46 AM
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sometimes you just have to buy on faith based on history of product, of the designer, and "caliber" (no flame guys) of other end users.
I decided I will go for it and buy it early January!

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if it has Atmos
Yes it will (see picture of recent ad from DATASAT attached

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DTS MDA capable
I very much think it will looking at the closeness between DATASAT and DTS!
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post #277 of 301 Old 12-13-2014, 01:46 PM
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1. I decided I will go for it and buy it early January!
Yes it will (see picture of recent ad from DATASAT attached
2. I very much think it will looking at the closeness between DATASAT and DTS!
1. Congrats - I do not have direct experience but considering the "pedigree" I think you will be very happy. A receiver is not going to match the sound of this LS 10 and separate power amps.
Have you found out the cost with Atmos included? If they manage to keep it around US $10k, it will be a compelling choice. Also, just curious, do you know if the LS10 is designed by the same engineer as the RS20, David Kerstetter?

2.
If you need to buy one right away, sure. But are you sure you don't want to wait just a little longer for DTS impending announcement? This is the one time that I think it might be worth it to wait, especially for something like the LS10 where cost of "upgrading" is unknown. Closeness or not, any need to redesign (new decoder board?) might cost too much dinero relative to the initial cost in this case.

Regards, Can
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post #278 of 301 Old 12-13-2014, 02:37 PM
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Westmd - I would suggest you get confirmation from Datasat that the LS10 will/can be updated with Atmos. For the RS20i the upgrade to Atmos requires new DSPs via its expansion card architecture No sure if the LS10 offers the same ability to upgrade its DSPs (if that is needed for Atmos for that unit).

Edit update - wasn't originally able to read/open the Datasat add you had attached westmd - so great to see the LS10 is getting Atmos!

Last edited by stephenbr; 12-13-2014 at 02:46 PM. Reason: New comment
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post #279 of 301 Old 12-13-2014, 02:53 PM
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Yes it will (see picture of recent ad from DATASAT attached
Yes, Atmos is certainly feasible. I noticed the current LS10 product information lists PLIIz. I hope that remains even after the Atmos upgrade, as neither DSU nor Auro are to my taste for processing stereo music sources. I am very keen to have an Atmos/PLIIx processor with PEQ, and I know there is one in my future.

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post #280 of 301 Old 12-13-2014, 04:49 PM
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Yes, Atmos is certainly feasible. I noticed the current LS10 product information lists PLIIz. I hope that remains even after the Atmos upgrade, as neither DSU nor Auro are to my taste for processing stereo music sources. I am very keen to have an Atmos/PLIIx processor with PEQ, and I know there is one in my future.
I very much doubt that will happen. I'm sure I read that the Atmos chipset also handles the surround upmixer and, certainly for the RS20i the old dolby card is to be replaced by a new Atmos card.

I'm amazed you don't like Auro for music sources. You are the first I have heard say this, but that's the great thing about all this, it's all subjective.

I used to only listen to music in pl2x in panorama mode but since getting Auro I have gone back to a more stereo type sound but from what sounds like the most incredible 3d imaging pair of speakers.
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post #281 of 301 Old 12-15-2014, 01:55 AM
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I very much doubt that will happen. I'm sure I read that the Atmos chipset also handles the surround upmixer and, certainly for the RS20i the old dolby card is to be replaced by a new Atmos card.
The new Atmos card can easily handle PLIIx -- technically. And certainly cost would not be a factor. So why not?

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I'm amazed you don't like Auro for music sources. You are the first I have heard say this, but that's the great thing about all this, it's all subjective.
I like it a lot better than DSU for stereo music.

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I used to only listen to music in pl2x in panorama mode but since getting Auro I have gone back to a more stereo type sound but from what sounds like the most incredible 3d imaging pair of speakers.
That's an apt description. I think I said something along those lines, too, especially useful in home theaters where there's less use of the room as an effects processor. And as good as it is, it's just too much "back to stereo" for me, who has been away these many years.

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post #282 of 301 Old 12-17-2014, 01:04 PM
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XLR to RCA adapters

As the LS10 only has balanced XLR outputs and my amps only have non-balanced RCA inputs I was wondering what would be the best way to connect them?

The manual states:"If wiring single ended, wire only to (+) and ground. The (-) side of the channels should not be connected. Do not short the (-) sides of the channels to ground, which will degrade sound quality and cause the LS10 output stage to draw excess current."

Now all XLR to RCA adapters I was able to find on the internet have (+) and (-) short wired. Obviously DATASAT says not to connect (-) but then again they state not to short wire (-) and ground which is not the case with these adapters so I wonder if they would have any negative imoact on sound quality?
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post #283 of 301 Old 12-17-2014, 01:55 PM
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As the LS10 only has balanced XLR outputs and my amps only have non-balanced RCA inputs I was wondering what would be the best way to connect them?

The manual states:"If wiring single ended, wire only to (+) and ground. The (-) side of the channels should not be connected. Do not short the (-) sides of the channels to ground, which will degrade sound quality and cause the LS10 output stage to draw excess current."

Now all XLR to RCA adapters I was able to find on the internet have (+) and (-) short wired. Obviously DATASAT says not to connect (-) but then again they state not to short wire (-) and ground which is not the case with these adapters so I wonder if they would have any negative imoact on sound quality?
Roger went over this with me a while ago in the Theta thread: from what I could remember, basically if they tell you not to do it, then DON'T do it. If you don't mind buying from the US, one choice is to call/email Blue Jeans cable and/or Better Cables http://bettercables.com/ here in the US and see if they could custom make such cables for you. Both make good quality and very inexpensive cables.

You could also dis-connect the negative wire yourself: open up (untwist) the XLR connector, cut the wire connected to pin number 3. The wire should be seen and accessed very easily with standard XLR connectors.

Wikipedia:
EIA Standard RS-297-A describes the use of the XLR3 for balanced audio signal level applications:

PinFunction
1 Chassis ground (cable shield)
2 Positive polarity terminal for balanced audio circuits (aka "hot")
3 Negative polarity terminal for balanced circuits (aka "cold")[15]

Regards, Can
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Last edited by cannga; 12-17-2014 at 02:00 PM.
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post #284 of 301 Old 12-17-2014, 02:05 PM
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Roger went over this with me a while ago in the Theta thread: from what I could remember, basically if they tell you not to do it, then DON'T do it. If you don't mind buying from the US, one choice is to call/email Blue Jeans cable and/or Better Cables http://bettercables.com/ here in the US and see if they could custom make such cables for you. Both make good quality and very inexpensive cables.

You could also dis-connect the negative wire yourself: open up (untwist) the XLR connector, cut the wire connected to pin number 3. The wire should be seen and accessed very easily with standard XLR connectors.

Wikipedia:
EIA Standard RS-297-A describes the use of the XLR3 for balanced audio signal level applications:

PinFunction
1 Chassis ground (cable shield)
2 Positive polarity terminal for balanced audio circuits (aka "hot")
3 Negative polarity terminal for balanced circuits (aka "cold")[15]
Thanks! I actually have quite good cables (partly from Blue Jeans) therefore I was just looking for an adapter. Cutting the (-) wire would be an option but I just wanted to make sure that I am doing the right thing before doing anything stupid. I was just curious why DATASAT won't like (-) connected when all available wires have (-) connected together with (+)!
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post #285 of 301 Old 12-17-2014, 02:39 PM
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Quote:
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Thanks! I actually have quite good cables (partly from Blue Jeans) therefore I was just looking for an adapter. Cutting the (-) wire would be an option but I just wanted to make sure that I am doing the right thing before doing anything stupid. I was just curious why DATASAT won't like (-) connected when all available wires have (-) connected together with (+)!
If y short those poles you risk burning out the op amps.

I'm in UK and got mark grant to make me up some cables. Very simple.
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post #286 of 301 Old 12-17-2014, 02:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by westmd View Post
Thanks! I actually have quite good cables (partly from Blue Jeans) therefore I was just looking for an adapter. Cutting the (-) wire would be an option but I just wanted to make sure that I am doing the right thing before doing anything stupid. I was just curious why DATASAT won't like (-) connected when all available wires have (-) connected together with (+)!
See quote below from Roger and for more details, his answers to my questions following in next couple of pages: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/86-ultra-hi-end-ht-gear-20-000/1313052-official-theta-thread-75.html#post20918803.
Datasat's XLR outputs, like Theta's, do not float. If you connect negative to ground, un-necessary heat is generated in output stage.


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From what I have seen, the Theta XLR outputs do not float. It is essentially 2 single-ended outputs carrying opposite polarity signals. Assuming that is the case, it would be better to not connect pin 3 to anything. Grounding it only generates heat in that output stage.

Regards, Can
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post #287 of 301 Old 12-17-2014, 02:41 PM
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Thanks! Bought my Oppo from Mark Grant!
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post #288 of 301 Old 12-17-2014, 03:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by westmd View Post
Thanks! I actually have quite good cables (partly from Blue Jeans) therefore I was just looking for an adapter. Cutting the (-) wire would be an option but I just wanted to make sure that I am doing the right thing before doing anything stupid. I was just curious why DATASAT won't like (-) connected when all available wires have (-) connected together with (+)!
You need to find an adapter that you can open up and cut the pin 3 connection. Some are very difficult to open up, others have a small screw that make it easy. After you are done make sure you check the continuity to confirm there is no connection.
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Thanks! Bought my Oppo from Mark Grant!
If you ask Mark to see if he has the specs for the cables he made me, my name is Nick March...
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post #290 of 301 Old 12-17-2014, 08:23 PM
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IF anyone is interested in a Datasat RS20 I have one for sale at the classified section. I'm selling off my home and moving into a apartment closer to the city and work due to traffic issues and time. Since I need to sell fast my price is considered below market value.




Link:Datasat RS20I Processor with Diract Microphone Kit & License

Home Theatre: Onkyo PR SC 5509, ATI 3007 Danley SH50, Danley SH69, Danley SH100 (Rear), Seaton Subwoofer X 2, Custom Made Acoustic Panels and Bass Traps.

2 Channel System: Philharmonics 3, GD Audio Master 2 Mono Blocks, GD Audio Master 1 Pre-Amp. Wireworld Eclipse Gold 5 Silver XLR, Clear Day...
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post #291 of 301 Old 12-18-2014, 02:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by westmd View Post
Thanks! I actually have quite good cables (partly from Blue Jeans) therefore I was just looking for an adapter. Cutting the (-) wire would be an option but I just wanted to make sure that I am doing the right thing before doing anything stupid. I was just curious why DATASAT won't like (-) connected when all available wires have (-) connected together with (+)!
You need to find an adapter that you can open up and cut the pin 3 connection. Some are very difficult to open up, others have a small screw that make it easy. After you are done make sure you check the continuity to confirm there is no connection.
I ordered myself the DAP Audio adapter to test if I can unscrew it. It has a visible screw but even the manufacturer could not tell me if I will be able to unscrew and alter them!
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post #292 of 301 Old 12-19-2014, 11:16 AM
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The nutrik ones come apart ok.
Pin 1 -
Pin 2+
Nothing!! To pin 3
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post #293 of 301 Old 12-19-2014, 11:29 AM
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when connecting balanced to unbalanced, it's best to use a transformer-type adaptor instead of just lifting one pin, Jensen transformer makes outstanding adaptors for balanced to unbalanced and vice-versa.

Something of note as well- there is generally a +10db signal difference between unbalanced and balanced signals- so going into an unbalanced input with a +10db hotter signal from a balanced output could have some unintended consequences.

going from unbalanced output to balanced input is easier as long as you have the ability to increase the gain on the input stage.

so for reference: rca is +10db less gain than XLR, so rca ou tot XLR you need to add +10db
XLR to rca you need to pad (attenuate) +10db on most devices.

It's best to verify the voltage outputs at the XLR stage and the input capacity of the rca input stage.

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post #294 of 301 Old 12-20-2014, 12:17 AM
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when connecting balanced to unbalanced, it's best to use a transformer-type adaptor instead of just lifting one pin, Jensen transformer makes outstanding adaptors for balanced to unbalanced and vice-versa.
If the goal is to emutale a phono output, it is not any better to use a transformer. Pin 2 is electrically the same as a phono output. More on this below.

Now if there's induced cable hum, then using a transformer (at the amp end of the wire) is a good idea.

Quote:
Something of note as well- there is generally a +10db signal difference between unbalanced and balanced signals- so going into an unbalanced input with a +10db hotter signal from a balanced output could have some unintended consequences.
You are thinking of pro balanced audio levels +4 dBU, but these are consumer XLR connectors. Not only are the voltages on the XLR pins typically the same as the phono output, but it's often the very same signal on pin2 from the same preamp stage that drives the phono jack. Then there's an inverter to pin 3 and it's done.

Quote:
It's best to verify the voltage outputs at the XLR stage and the input capacity of the rca input stage.
Can't argue with that.

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post #295 of 301 Old 12-20-2014, 04:18 AM
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I bought myself an XTZ room analyzer pro kit for setting the PEQ of the LS10. This comes with a cinch connection to play test tones. If I am using the stereo in of the LS10 which settling do I have to choose to signal these test tones on all channels the same way? I found rhe setting how to mute individual channels and how to play internal pink noise test tones but don't know what to choose for external test tones?
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post #296 of 301 Old 12-20-2014, 04:39 AM
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One more question. Does Datasat allow the use of a single mono surround back channel?
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post #297 of 301 Old 12-20-2014, 10:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
If the goal is to emutale a phono output, it is not any better to use a transformer. Pin 2 is electrically the same as a phono output. More on this below.

Now if there's induced cable hum, then using a transformer (at the amp end of the wire) is a good idea.

You are thinking of pro balanced audio levels +4 dBU, but these are consumer XLR connectors. Not only are the voltages on the XLR pins typically the same as the phono output, but it's often the very same signal on pin2 from the same preamp stage that drives the phono jack. Then there's an inverter to pin 3 and it's done.

Can't argue with that.
I think Dan is referring to the 6dB you can lose if you disconnect pin 3, i.e., half the signal. But I also have in my notes this quote:

it depends on the type of balanced output. Transformer bal output vs. active balanced (designed to act like a transformer) output vs. active balanced output. They all react differently to unbalancing. Just unbalancing does not guarantee that you will have a drop in level.

Don't know what Datasat uses.

Those Jensens can be expensive at some $270 for 2 channels.
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post #298 of 301 Old 12-20-2014, 11:04 AM
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My thought process is this: if you use the Jensen, you're pretty much guaranteed to not have issues going from balance to unbalanced no matter what equipment you're using. For me, personally, if it's one of my clients- it's a transformer to be sure the input stages are protected.

Yes, Roger was right about my thinking along the pro-audio side of things regarding signal level differences unbalanced versus balanced. Apparently I misremembered the exact level.

Here's the ultimate point: do you really want to risk a 20,000 processor's output stage (RS20i) or even 10000 processor (LS10) or the input stage of an amplifier that cost (?) based on the "lift pin 3" theory of XLR connectors? Some manufacturers actually handle the 3 pins properly, others are using XLR but actually handle it in an unbalanced manner.
If you can get actual feedback from the manufacturers involved on how to do it, great, but I'd still rather have the transformer isolation.

Dan

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post #299 of 301 Old 12-20-2014, 11:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by westmd View Post
One more question. Does Datasat allow the use of a single mono surround back channel?
No, there's no provision for down mixing the stereo back surround channels into a mono back surround.
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post #300 of 301 Old 12-20-2014, 04:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanFrancis View Post
My thought process is this: if you use the Jensen, you're pretty much guaranteed to not have issues going from balance to unbalanced no matter what equipment you're using. For me, personally, if it's one of my clients- it's a transformer to be sure the input stages are protected.

Yes, Roger was right about my thinking along the pro-audio side of things regarding signal level differences unbalanced versus balanced. Apparently I misremembered the exact level.

Here's the ultimate point: do you really want to risk a 20,000 processor's output stage (RS20i) or even 10000 processor (LS10) or the input stage of an amplifier that cost (?) based on the "lift pin 3" theory of XLR connectors? Some manufacturers actually handle the 3 pins properly, others are using XLR but actually handle it in an unbalanced manner.
If you can get actual feedback from the manufacturers involved on how to do it, great, but I'd still rather have the transformer isolation.

Dan
I will go by the LS10 manual and only use adapters were pin 3 is disconnected!
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