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post #1741 of 3390 Old 03-02-2016, 11:58 PM
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
I believe so, and that it was also criticized.

Seems to me all it does is make the L/R image wider than they ought to, assuming they're properly placed to begin with.
I don't know what exactly DM is doing, but proper center extraction (the PLII way) between mains and surrounds does not make the L/R image wider, it only improves the stability of images positioned or panned between them.

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post #1742 of 3390 Old 03-03-2016, 08:28 AM
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Not easy to find , but after massive Googeling i found this Picture of the inside of Altitude 32 on an German site

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post #1743 of 3390 Old 03-03-2016, 08:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post
I don't know what exactly DM is doing, but proper center extraction (the PLII way) between mains and surrounds does not make the L/R image wider, it only improves the stability of images positioned or panned between them.
Agree and disagree with both, if there is common signaling to say the right and right surround in theory the soundstage should be heard wider, if there is no common signaling to the right and surround right then no widening be added and the image would behave like Maikel suggests, it really depend on the mix.
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post #1744 of 3390 Old 03-03-2016, 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post
Agree 100%. I've seen him in action a couple of times when I've been in LA, and you can't beat his knowledge of not only the Optimizer but tweaking of target curves, especially for music content in an active crossover two-channel or multi-channel music environment.
Curt's also really good at utilizing multiple features to implement a strategy that you would never have thought of before. And having him in person can help resolve issues with the hardware (such as improperly wired drivers that are out of phase, even if they were shipped from the factory of a very reputable manufacturer!!), or trying different strategies such as moving things around, flipping speakers, and experimenting with different treatments, strategies, etc, all sourced from his huge experience in audio. If you have installers/techs available, he is excellent at taking charge and really leading the team to work effectively. My favorite is watching him delegate work to others while he plays with the calibration data and setup on the computer. Nobody on the clock is allowed to sit around and watch if there is something else that needs to be done, like setting up for the next cal experiment. Definitely worth flying him in!

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post #1745 of 3390 Old 03-03-2016, 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by jolt72 View Post
Not easy to find , but after massive Googeling i found this Picture of the inside of Altitude 32 on an German site

I have built dozens of PCs over the last 17 years yet for some reason, I have not opened mine. Probably since this is the most I have spent on a single piece of equipment. I did recognize the Scythe Shuriken CPU heat sink/fan through the vents.
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post #1746 of 3390 Old 03-03-2016, 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post
I don't know what exactly DM is doing, but proper center extraction (the PLII way) between mains and surrounds does not make the L/R image wider, it only improves the stability of images positioned or panned between them.
How is center extraction relevant to the discussion?
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post #1747 of 3390 Old 03-03-2016, 10:26 PM
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
How is center extraction relevant to the discussion?
Just chiming in, wasn't me who brought it up.

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Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post
Not quite the same thing, but isn't that what Denon is doing in their DSP implementation of DTS:X/Neutral X, as per the DTS:X or one of the Denon/Marantz threads?

IIRC there's a "Neural:X Parameter" under the DTS settings that will supply a signal by center extraction between the front and surround speakers. I believe there's a choice between that approach and straight channel cloning along the lines of a multiple speaker array.

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post #1748 of 3390 Old 03-03-2016, 11:38 PM
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Originally Posted by thxman View Post
Curt has stated several times that there is no SRC in the Altitude. Maybe they are not worried as much about the spec.
Maybe when a BD player connects to a device with digital outputs, the player makes sure the signals comply with HDCP requirements -- IOW, it does the downsampling before it is sent to the Altitude. Just my speculation.

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post #1749 of 3390 Old 03-04-2016, 06:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
Maybe when a BD player connects to a device with digital outputs, the player makes sure the signals comply with HDCP requirements -- IOW, it does the downsampling before it is sent to the Altitude. Just my speculation.


You might very well be very right.

I just ran a test with the AIX Audio Calibration BluRay disk using a digital coax cable to connect my Oppo to my external Rega DAC. I played the 96kHz/24bit/2.0 ch. LPCM test track. Every time I start it (or any other track on that disk), the sampling rate indicator on the Rega DAC switches for a split second to 88.2-96 kHz to immediately return to 44.1-48 kHz and stay there.

My preliminary conclusion therefore (until proven otherwise): Sampling rates on Blu-Rays higher than 48kHz/16 bit only have true meaning when the DA conversion happens in the BR player and the analog-outs are used to carry it further.

There goes AIX Records' myth that you can enjoy their 96Hz/24bit 7.1 recordings at full resolution using HDMI to connect your player to your processor/receiver: not true, or misleading at the least (to me). Same goes for AuroTechnologies BTW, who emphasize the importance of sampling rates of 96kHz or higher to take benefit of our ability to interpret the smallest phase shifts into spatial resolution. These claims and discussions are all moot if you use any digital-out connection on your BR player, due to HDCP. Shocking, and I hope Rogers speculation and my evidence to suggest the same will be proven wrong...

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post #1750 of 3390 Old 03-04-2016, 07:06 AM
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Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post
My preliminary conclusion therefore (until proven otherwise): Sampling rates on Blu-Rays higher than 48kHz/16 bit only have true meaning when the DA conversion happens in the BR player and the analog-outs are used to carry it further.
My counter example to your assertion is that I have several 96/24 blu-rays that are reported as playing at 96kHz on my Altitude. And ditto on previous processors, with HDMI input. Same thing goes for SACD/DSD (on previous processors, haven't tried on Altitude).

Perhaps your example proves that the coax digital outs do not permit higher than a certain quality compared to HDMI, possibly due to some copy protection reason?
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post #1751 of 3390 Old 03-04-2016, 07:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Unherdable View Post
My counter example to your assertion is that I have several 96/24 blu-rays that are reported as playing at 96kHz on my Altitude. And ditto on previous processors, with HDMI input. Same thing goes for SACD/DSD (on previous processors, haven't tried on Altitude).

Perhaps your example proves that the coax digital outs do not permit higher than a certain quality compared to HDMI, possibly due to some copy protection reason?
I truly hope you are right and am happy to read your evidence for true 96/24 output from the player. Next thing to be checked/evidenced is whether it still is 96/24 from the AES outputs on the Altitude.

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post #1752 of 3390 Old 03-04-2016, 07:25 AM
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Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post
I truly hope you are right and am happy to read your evidence for true 96/24 output from the player. Next thing to be checked/evidenced is whether it still is 96/24 from the AES outputs on the Altitude.
stick this in between and report...... not 4k though...
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post #1753 of 3390 Old 03-04-2016, 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post
I just ran a test with the AIX Audio Calibration BluRay disk using a digital coax cable to connect my Oppo to my external Rega DAC. I played the 96kHz/24bit/2.0 ch. LPCM test track. Every time I start it (or any other track on that disk), the sampling rate indicator on the Rega DAC switches for a split second to 88.2-96 kHz to immediately return to 44.1-48 kHz and stay there.

My preliminary conclusion therefore (until proven otherwise): Sampling rates on Blu-Rays higher than 48kHz/16 bit only have true meaning when the DA conversion happens in the BR player and the analog-outs are used to carry it further.
S/PDIF outputs are handled separately from HDMI outputs, and their ability to output >CD audio depends on the source. If the source is a downloaded PCM file, it is not restricted. If the source is a DVD-A or BD disc using HDCP encryption, then the coax (a.k.a. "legacy digital output") is restricted to "CD-Audio quality or less."

Quote:
There goes AIX Records' myth that you can enjoy their 96Hz/24bit 7.1 recordings at full resolution using HDMI to connect your player to your processor/receiver: not true, or misleading at the least (to me).
A BD player can merrily output HD audio all day long to external devices connected with HDMI even if HDCP encrypted. The analog audio produced is not restricted in any way. The issue for your DAC is that is that it does not have an HDMI input.

The issue I raise is about an HDMI device that provides non-HDCP digital outputs, be they S/PDIF or AES. As Dan Schulz noted elsewhere, >>It is a requirement for HDCP encrypted content that it be down-sampled to 48/16 if being output digitally.<< My pure speculation was simply that if the Altitude is truly not capable of SRC, then perhaps that is known to the BD player which takes care of it.

I actually do not believe that an HDMI compliant device can "pass the buck" upstream to the source player, but this was one way to address the alleged fact that the Altitude has no SRC. Perhaps that is an overstatement. Perhaps it is true that the Altitude applies no SRC during its internal audio processing, in contrast with more pedestrian AV processors which do things like downsample to 48 kHz when Audyssey is active, or which run all audio through 96 kHz SRC chips. Even so, it may still be the case that the Altitude limits the AES outputs to "CD-Audio" when playing HDCP content in order to be compliant.

But why speculate. It is easy enough to find out if one has an Altitude and a device that reads sample rate of the AES output. Feed it via HDMI from a DVD-A disc with 96 or 192 kHz audio. Does the Altitude report the disc's sample rate? If so, does it matter if the AES outputs are active or not (assuming they are even switchable)? What is the AES output sample rate?
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post #1754 of 3390 Old 03-04-2016, 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
But why speculate. It is easy enough to find out if one has an Altitude and a device that reads sample rate of the AES output. Feed it via HDMI from a DVD-A disc with 96 or 192 kHz audio. Does the Altitude report the disc's sample rate? If so, does it matter if the AES outputs are active or not (assuming they are even switchable)? What is the AES output sample rate?
Can you recommend a device for this?
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Can you recommend a device for this?
I would start with something that shows sample rate from S/PDIF, be it a DAC or an AV processor. Then connect it with an adapter cable or transformer. AES audio payload is the same as S/PDIF. The connectors/signal levels (and in some cases, some flags) are different. Might get lucky.

Rane details the electrical differences here. Link.
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post #1756 of 3390 Old 03-04-2016, 12:13 PM
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I may just have to wait for the Sentinels. I think they will show this and I am finally seeing light at the end of the tunnel (shipping soon!).
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Hi there, I'm thinking about buying a Trinnov and have a question. Can I do all the DSP processing in the Trinnov? I mean to do all the bass management for the subs for example, meaning I only will need to buy a standard amp for the subs (not a DSP one)
Thanks
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Hi there, I'm thinking about buying a Trinnov and have a question. Can I do all the DSP processing in the Trinnov? I mean to do all the bass management for the subs for example, meaning I only will need to buy a standard amp for the subs (not a DSP one)
Thanks
Yes
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post #1759 of 3390 Old 03-05-2016, 01:31 PM
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Yes
Thanks for the answer, that's great. Another question, what are the digital ouputs useful for? I mean paying what we pay for this units, i dont know why we should use any other unit to do the D/A conversion for example...
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Thanks for the answer, that's great. Another question, what are the digital ouputs useful for? I mean paying what we pay for this units, i dont know why we should use any other unit to do the D/A conversion for example...
It works great with the alcons system, who cleaned house at ISE using an altitude feeding it digitally and using trinnov optimizer (which many companies cannot make work perfect). The alcons system was practically plug and play in one evening, for a show this is an enormous accomplishment.
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It works great with the alcons system, who cleaned house at ISE using an altitude feeding it digitally and using trinnov optimizer (which many companies cannot make work perfect). The alcons system was practically plug and play in one evening, for a show this is an enormous accomplishment.
ah yes, those alcons seems very interesting. Do you know something about the prices of them? I am interested in a CR1 or CR2 config for my LCR.

you mean you feed the alcons digitally? so I assume they are active speakers right? can they compare to the D/A converters of the Trinnov? CR1 or CR2 are passif AFAIK
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Originally Posted by rggomez View Post
ah yes, those alcons seems very interesting. Do you know something about the prices of them? I am interested in a CR1 or CR2 config for my LCR.

you mean you feed the alcons digitally? so I assume they are active speakers right? can they compare to the D/A converters of the Trinnov? CR1 or CR2 are passif AFAIK
Hi RG, Though some of them are passive they are still sold with a bespoke filtered powerdac. The required sentinel power amps sounds much better when fed digital. I argue by the demo at ISE ( that I had some personal coordination contribution to ) that the Alcons aes is the best B-Chain to make the very most out of the altitude, no substitute to eliminating digital to analog and analog to digital to analog conversions. Even though Theta disagrees on this which i respect.

Trinnov was astounded how the system clicked in just a few hours , both companies and Gary Reber were very impressed with the synergy and new benchmark plateau, I was very releaved and happy to hear the optimizer finally shinning it's brightest at a show for day one. Never has an optimizer been setup in such short time resulting uncontestedly stelar so easily (overwhelmingly be the best in show). JBL needs another eq (and it is still a horn), pro uses their own peq in their amps, and others are not to the audiophile level, not even B&W, and my beloved Quested's failed to act as a plug and play the previous ISE (Class A Recommended copmponent grade). PM me your email the March prcice list just came out for Home Cinema.

Here is the CEDIA coverage, next month equally raving review on Alcons using the altitude at ISE, also conclusion of my Immersion saga article.

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Thanks Cineramax. PM Sent
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Originally Posted by Unherdable View Post
My counter example to your assertion is that I have several 96/24 blu-rays that are reported as playing at 96kHz on my Altitude. And ditto on previous processors, with HDMI input. Same thing goes for SACD/DSD (on previous processors, haven't tried on Altitude).gh

Perhaps your example proves that the coax digital outs do not permit higher than a certain quality compared to HDMI, possibly due to some copy protection reason?
The thing is that when I play a 96/24 DVD-audio, the S/PDIF coax passes the full 96KHz to my external DAC. In conclusion: Non-HDMI equipped external DACs can get higher bit rates from DVD than from Blu-Ray, unless you go for grey-market solutions to disable HDCP.

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Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post
It works great with the alcons system, who cleaned house at ISE using an altitude feeding it digitally and using trinnov optimizer (which many companies cannot make work perfect). The alcons system was practically plug and play in one evening, for a show this is an enormous accomplishment.
Keep in mind, currently, there are only 8 channels of AES output available.

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Keep in mind, currently, there are only 8 channels of AES output available.
According to the website, there are 16 on all four models:

http://www.trinnov.com/products/home...oduct-details/

Look under 'Digital Outputs'
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Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
According to the website, there are 16 on all four models:

http://www.trinnov.com/products/home...oduct-details/

Look under 'Digital Outputs'
What I thought too. Digitals are in pairs. There is rumor of a class in California on 4/18 will try to go, maybe bring Walter.

Even if 8 was current limiation it would cover the most important channels.

With datasat you are either all 16 channel digital or analog, with trinnov you can mix hopefully the whole bed with 16 and the subs the tops and heights fed analog.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
According to the website, there are 16 on all four models:

http://www.trinnov.com/products/home...oduct-details/

Look under 'Digital Outputs'

I am very aware of what the website says. I have one in my lab, and have installed/calibrated several. When I last checked a month ago, there are only 8 outputs available.

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post #1769 of 3390 Old 03-07-2016, 01:22 PM
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With datasat you are either all 16 channel digital or analog, with trinnov you can mix hopefully the whole bed with 16 and the subs the tops and heights fed analog.
For a plus-16-speaker lay-out with the Alcons I think I would try to digitally feed the 5 Auro heights (LCR and Surrounds) together with 11 base level speakers, and leave VOG, tops and subs for the analog outs.

A good idea and understanding lies at the basis of every successful project.
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post #1770 of 3390 Old 03-07-2016, 01:24 PM
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Sounds like it could be software related. The hardware is installed.


Quote:
Originally Posted by appelz View Post
I am very aware of what the website says. I have one in my lab, and have installed/calibrated several. When I last checked a month ago, there are only 8 outputs available.
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