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post #2281 of 3485 Old 08-27-2016, 03:39 PM
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The pressure need to go on DTS for that. Maybe DTS is hiding something.
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post #2282 of 3485 Old 08-27-2016, 03:43 PM
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Well, unlike Atmos, there's very little DTS-X content. And frankly, arraying 19 speakers with DTS-X isn't 1/2 bad...

Goodbye to a great audio and video genius and writer... JOHN GANNON. I enjoyed your friendship, wit and a nice long run we took around Indianapolis at CEDIA years back... and for buying my Runco 980 Ultra years back... you saved my ass! Rest in peace.
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post #2283 of 3485 Old 08-27-2016, 04:22 PM
 
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Yeah but Neural -X's width chanel exploitation is a God sent for us width Channel fetishists.

A

American Ultra

B

Big Short, The

C

Crimson Peak

D

Daddy’s Home

Divergent UHD

E

Ex Machina

G

Gods of Egypt 3D

Gods of Egypt 2D

Gods of Egypt UHD

I

Independence Day UHD

Ip Man 3

L

Last Witch Hunter, The

Last Witch Hunter, The UHD

London Has Fallen

Lone Survivor UHD

W

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot

Z

Zoolander 2



Upcoming

August

Huntman’s: Winter War, The (August 23)

Huntman’s: Winter War, The UHD (August 23)

Snow White & The Huntsman UHD (August 23)
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post #2284 of 3485 Old 08-27-2016, 04:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audiovideoholic View Post
Great news on the PEQ!!! That is great news for me to hear as I was getting worried about using Lake for each channel which would really drive my total cost up and need to use another rack which is currently only used for my bar room.
ditto!

Do we know when this update is scheduled?
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post #2285 of 3485 Old 08-27-2016, 05:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikela View Post
ditto!

Do we know when this update is scheduled?
Hopefully it won/t use too much horsepower (though I have a Q-SYS doing these duties). Great that the upgrades keep coming!

Goodbye to a great audio and video genius and writer... JOHN GANNON. I enjoyed your friendship, wit and a nice long run we took around Indianapolis at CEDIA years back... and for buying my Runco 980 Ultra years back... you saved my ass! Rest in peace.
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post #2286 of 3485 Old 08-27-2016, 05:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post
Yeah but Neural -X's width chanel exploitation is a God sent for us width Channel fetishists.

A

American Ultra

B

Big Short, The

C

Crimson Peak

D

Daddy’s Home

Divergent UHD

E

Ex Machina

G

Gods of Egypt 3D

Gods of Egypt 2D

Gods of Egypt UHD

I

Independence Day UHD

Ip Man 3

L

Last Witch Hunter, The

Last Witch Hunter, The UHD

London Has Fallen

Lone Survivor UHD

W

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot

Z

Zoolander 2



Upcoming

August

Huntman’s: Winter War, The (August 23)

Huntman’s: Winter War, The UHD (August 23)

Snow White & The Huntsman UHD (August 23)
PEter... We need a better library than this!!! But I do like the 'width channel fetishists'!!
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Goodbye to a great audio and video genius and writer... JOHN GANNON. I enjoyed your friendship, wit and a nice long run we took around Indianapolis at CEDIA years back... and for buying my Runco 980 Ultra years back... you saved my ass! Rest in peace.
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post #2287 of 3485 Old 08-28-2016, 06:07 AM
 
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Cool Alcons Pro-Ribbon Immersive Experience returns to CEDIA 2016 with 18 channel Altitude



Following a highly successful debut at the 2015 CEDIA home technology show, Alcons Audio returns in 2016, again with the popular Alcons Pro-Ribbon Immersive Experience.

One of the premier showcases for the North American home technology industry, CEDIA takes place at the Kay Bailey Hutchison Convention Center in Dallas from 15th-17th September. The show is the ideal platform for Alcons to showcase its high-end, C-series home cinema systems, which it will be doing to maximum effect in Arts District 4 (High Performance Audio).

A joint collaboration between Alcons, Barco Residential, Dreamscreen and Trinnov, the Alcons Pro-Ribbon Immersive Experience is the perfect way for CEDIA visitors to experience the company’s ability to deliver Hi-Fi sound at concert sound pressure levels in any size application.

The audio system, co-designed by residential integrator Cineramax of Miami, FL., is set-up as a 9.1.8 channel immersive surround configuration, comprising three Alcons Cinema Series CR3 Screen System three-way, pro-ribbon systems as L-C-R screen channels, plus fourteen CRMS pro-ribbon surround systems for the heights,width, side, rear and overhead surrounds. Two ultra-slim 21” CB211sl and two CB181sl subwoofers will be used as LF extensions.

The system is driven by 28 channels of Sentinel amplified loudspeaker controllers, with ‘lossless’ digital feed of an AES3 96kHz signal by a Trinnov Altitude 32 processor. This also connects the media player with a Barco Athena DCI projector with up to 4500 lumens output, projecting on DreamScreen/ScreenAcoustics Ultra-HD acoustically-transparent screen fabric.

The Alcons Pro-Ribbon Immersive Experience was a star of last year’s CEDIA, as well as the 2016 Integrated Systems Europe (ISE) show in Amsterdam. At both events, numerous visitors and trade media described it as the ‘best in show’.

“It’s the most incredible home theater demonstration that I’ve ever experienced, including my own reference systems,” noted Gary Reber, editor of Widescreen Review magazine, after experiencing the Alcons Pro-Ribbon Immersive Experience at CEDIA 2015. “This is the best of it. Out of all the shows, I’ve never seen a system like this.”

“Prosumer residential clients are looking for the same quality equipment as the professionals, with exceptional Hi-Fi sound,” says Alcons co-founder Tom Back.

“As the only manufacturer able to combine Hi-Fi sound with pro-grade SPL outputs Alcons, with its multiple-patented pro-ribbon transducer technology, is unique in being able to deliver what this market demands.”

He continues, “The residential market is an increasingly important part of our business. This has followed the success we have experienced in the premium cinema market, in high-end screening rooms and post-production studios like Walt Disney, Universal, Lucasfilm, or recently Google/YouTube and Eikon group. We are very pleased with how popular the C-series is proving for our domestic customer base.”

“After last year’s success at CEDIA, we are looking forward to again showing what is possible in home theater audio,” says Alcons North American Sales manager David Rahn. “The best way to demonstrate the quality of Alcons systems is to let people experience it with their own ears and we are looking forward to wowing CEDIA visitors again!”

Alcons Pro-Ribbon Immersive Experience is located in High Performance Room 4, Arts District (Barco Residential / Alcons Audio).
For more information visit: www.alconsaudio.com , www.barco.com , www.trinnov.com , www.dreamscreen.no .

AS WE WILL BE OPEN LATE WED-FRI THIS YEAR WE WILL HAVE WIDE CHANNEL INTENSIVE PLAYLISTS OF DIFFERENT LENGTHS (LASTING FROM 30 MINUTES TO 2 HOURS) - DETAILS TO FOLLOW!!!

CROSS THE SKYBRIDGE INTO OMNI (ON SAME LEVEL) THE 4TH ROOM ON THE LEFT - IF YOU SEE PIONEER ON YOUR RIGHT LOOK BACK 20 FEET. ,)




Attention attending Homeowners looking to purchase JBL and Meyers: What the hell do you have to lose?

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/attach...9&d=1472347039

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post #2288 of 3485 Old 08-28-2016, 07:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audiovideoholic View Post
Great news on the PEQ!!! That is great news for me to hear as I was getting worried about using Lake for each channel which would really drive my total cost up and need to use another rack which is currently only used for my bar room.
I'm curious, as I've not jumped in deep enough to research yet how capable the trinnov is for active xovers...do you or anyone know just how the trinnov compares to say the lm26 for covers and eq? Same thoughts as you really, probably could buy an altitude 32 for the cost of enough lake lm26s to do all channels...actually I think you could buy a trinnov and have a good amount left over
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post #2289 of 3485 Old 08-29-2016, 01:37 AM
 
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New Dealer Listings on Trinnov.com/sales/Home Theater/USA

Thanks Arnaud and Jon.

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post #2290 of 3485 Old 08-29-2016, 01:58 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post
I'm curious, as I've not jumped in deep enough to research yet how capable the trinnov is for active xovers...do you or anyone know just how the trinnov compares to say the lm26 for covers and eq? Same thoughts as you really, probably could buy an altitude 32 for the cost of enough lake lm26s to do all channels...actually I think you could buy a trinnov and have a good amount left over
I can chime in from what I learnt at the class. This is the first thing you do when setting the unit up and it is a fantastic part of the suite with much more flexibility than the Harman suite.

Walter confirmed he has his three Quested lt-20 in 3 way and he achieved fantastic results, and this is the guy instrumental in hooking up Bob Katz with ACOURATE.
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post #2291 of 3485 Old 08-29-2016, 02:18 PM
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Copying some discussion from the Receivers forum that belongs here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post
I should've been more clear. Even on the Trinnov, if you employ Wides, it comes at a cost of discrete Rear Surrounds - You'd send the Side Surrounds signal to the Rear Surrounds in an array fashion so as to employ Wides.. I didn't like this when I tried it.

If DTS gets beyond 7.1.4 like Dolby has then we can have both Wides and Rear Surrounds (and many others employed).
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
Did you try keeping the rears and letting remapping generate signals for the Wides?
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post
No. I don't use the remapping as my speakers are pretty ideally located.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post
The point Noah is making is that you can use ALL of your speakers and set the layout to 7.1.4 for DTS:X and let the Trinnov re-mapping function generate the wide speaker location. Not ideal but it allows you to listen in 7.1.4 and have extracted wides. Not true wides but wides nonetheless.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post
Honestly, it is my understanding that the Altitude cannot generate, via remapping, a single pair of speakers (without effecting others).

I'd have to ask my installer but I have not employed remapping at all as it can have deleterious effects on Atmos / hi channel count recordings - this has been my long understanding (I could be wrong).
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
Perhaps, but by most accounts I've read, the result can be magical.

There was even one fellow who had remapping on with a Stereo setup (i.e. Trinnov setup for reproduction of stereo sources, not surround sound), and said it was the best stereo he'd ever heard from his system.

Re remapping for wides, I believe that if w/o Wides a sound phantom images at their locations, then turning on remapping will result in the Wides reproducing that signal w/minimal output from the other speakers, assuming they're in ideal locations that don't need remapping to correct.



First I've heard of that, but I believe all you have to do to find out is go into the menus and turn remapping on.

I'm going to cut/paste from here into the Trinnov thread for further discussion.
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post #2292 of 3485 Old 08-29-2016, 02:29 PM
 
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There are no side effects from remapping any more, there used to be.
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post #2293 of 3485 Old 08-29-2016, 03:02 PM
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The word remapping suggests that there is already something mapped, which can subsequently be REmapped.

I have come to understand that in addition to this, the Altitudes remapping function can create additional speakers which have no physical position to start with. Such function would IMO better be described by 'speaker mapping'. EDIT: This turned out to be a misconception from my side. For a speaker to be remapped, it has to have a physical location to start with.

What I did not know, is that this remapping function also can create content for mapped speakers for which no original content exists. This would make it an upmixer. Which it is not, is it?

A good idea and understanding lies at the basis of every successful project.

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post #2294 of 3485 Old 08-29-2016, 03:20 PM
 
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Technically a re-renderer. But you could argue yes.
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post #2295 of 3485 Old 08-29-2016, 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted by noah katz
Perhaps, but by most accounts I've read, the result can be magical.

There was even one fellow who had remapping on with a Stereo setup (i.e. Trinnov setup for reproduction of stereo sources, not surround sound), and said it was the best stereo he'd ever heard from his system.

Re remapping for wides, I believe that if w/o Wides a sound phantom images at their locations, then turning on remapping will result in the Wides reproducing that signal w/minimal output from the other speakers, assuming they're in ideal locations that don't need remapping to correct.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
I really enjoy my Trinnov fed Stereo sources set to play back in stereo (no upmixing) with remapping "On". Even with fronts and rights in almost perfect physical locations, with extensive acoustic treatment, you can see all 11 non-sub speakers firing with the intent to create the perception of "perfect stereo" playback. When I first heard this I was blown away by how much better "two channel" could sound.
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post #2296 of 3485 Old 08-29-2016, 03:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post
The word remapping suggests that there is already something mapped,
That would be the speakers' actual physical locations, so virtually moving them to where they belong would be remapping.

Noah
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post #2297 of 3485 Old 08-29-2016, 05:17 PM
 
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Cool

[QUOTE=Brucemck2;46409321]Originally Posted by noah katz [URL="http://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-receivers-amps-processors/1574386-official-dolby-atmos-thread-home-theater-version-post46407505.html#post46407505"]


Re remapping for wides, I believe that if w/o Wides a sound phantom images at their locations, then turning on remapping will result in the Wides reproducing that signal w/minimal output from the other speakers, assuming they're in ideal locations that don't need remapping to correct.


this is ideal if it can be applied to Dolby Surround's Gaping Width-Channel hole. I'll check
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post #2298 of 3485 Old 08-29-2016, 07:17 PM
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Good, look forward to your results.

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post #2299 of 3485 Old 08-30-2016, 12:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
Re remapping for wides, I believe that if w/o Wides a sound phantom images at their locations, then turning on remapping will result in the Wides reproducing that signal w/minimal output from the other speakers, assuming they're in ideal locations that don't need remapping to correct.
The process you are describing sounds like center extraction a la Dolby PLII: Extracting the content from two adjacent speakers (normally L/R) which delivers phantomized sounds positioned in-between those two speakers, and send this extracted content to an additional speaker placed exactly in-between (normally the Center speaker). I would be very surprised if the remapping function of the Altitude includes such creation of content for non-existing bed channels.

A good idea and understanding lies at the basis of every successful project.
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I don't think it is done, i requested in class.
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Going on 6 years now, I've been asking for per-channel compressors and limiters to help protect loudspeaker systems....still waiting as far as I know. It's odd, too since you would think these features that can be used to protect a system would be implemented before more "bells and whistles" of whatever surround-flavor-of-the-day.

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From the Atmos thread:
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
OK, that's true.

Do you know for a fact that remapping doesn't also use other speakers to correct anomalies of the main speakers?
Quote:
Originally Posted by cannga View Post
Yes until you could find an expert to refute me :-): it does use all speakers but the only anomaly corrected is image position, not time/phase/frequencies/etc.
As I understand it as a user, in the Altitude the Trinnov Optimizer (or an outboard EQ ) applies its room EQ downstream of remapping at the channel level, based on the measured location of the individual speaker associated with a channel as defined in the Speaker Configuration tool.

Remapping reroutes the signal to account for the discrepancy between the measured and ideal speaker spatial configuration, as defined by the user/calibrator, and uses matrix math to use "all" speakers for remixing the "actual" content into what it would sound like according to that defined ideal placement. That's done before any EQ filters are applied, and it's a black box based on azimuth (horizontal) and elevation (vertical, if you go the 3D remapping route) from our POV for how those speakers contribute to the output.

Conceptually, though, you'd think that if you have, say, your left speaker at 25 degrees and left wide at 55, and aim for having the left speaker at 30 degrees, Trinnov would pull a large % of the input for the left speaker into the actual left speaker, and a non-trivial % of input for the left speaker into the left wides speaker (with some marginal % in side surrounds possibly). Watching the I/O meters, it's hardly going and sending equal signal to the wides and sides to get that ideal left speaker right by default.

Quote:
But our speakers are in correct position, and yet all speakers make sound while listening to stereo, what you are hearing is an upmixing (a result of the Trinnov remapping matrix - it uses ALL speakers to *try* to recreate what it *thinks* is the correct image position, key words being "try" and "thinks"). If it sounds "magical," well that's because you are comparing apples (stereo) and oranges (upmixing). Nothing wrong with liking it, but to be properly evaluated, it should be compared against other upmixing algorithms, like Dolby & DTS upmixers, etc.

The remapping process is rendering correction even when we know it should not, that's why to me it points to the side effect, or even imperfection, of the remixing process more than anything else.
It's all a matter of degrees, literally speaking. Not rendering correction where it shouldn't be can be controlled by appropriate channel count and placement, and you can always move speakers to optimize Remapping or just not use it.

There's a difference between what Trinnov's doing and what Dolby, DTS, Auromatic etc. are doing. With the latter, you're sending extracted content that the algorithm thinks a side surround should have to a physical speaker that's defined as a side surround. As far as any upmixer is concerned, that speaker could be anywhere given that definition - hell, you could have it in a VOG location and the upmixer won't know that's a ridiculous place for steering side surround matrixed content or ambience. OTOH, Trinnov Remapping is informed on the layout where you want to have the speakers, and uses math to take a weighted combination of input aimed at observed speaker location to send it to the "right" place.

Like any other tool, you don't want to use "blind" remapping. If you have enough spatial resolution with the # of speakers, or you're closer to the ideal, the remapping correction might be mild. OTOH if you have mains at 25 degrees and side surrounds at 90, remapping is going to be considerably less accurate to get you to a 30 degrees ideal Atmos placement for that main and probably a generally bad idea to use.

The result is also room specific. If you have a highly treated room, using remapping with stereo might add back in "ambience" that was removed by treating the room for a more HT purpose. Or it might destroy the soundstage for a large enough room, depending on the difference in capability of your speakers.

Having said that, as a user I personally use it judiciously. Less for 3D movies than for multichannel music or upmixing where we already know there's no such thing as matching the intent of a mixer for cues and location.

Audio Gear: Trinnov Altitude 32 (24 channel), NAD M27 amps (3)
Video: JVC RS600, Seymour 100" UF Screen, Lumagen Radiance Pro 4444 (coming soon)
Misc.: Oppo 103, Oppo 203 UHD player, JRiver
Speakers: PSB Imagine T3 LCR, Imagine T Wides and Side Surround 1, T2 Side Surrounds, Imagine XB rears, PSB CS1000 ceilings (6), HSU ULS-15 Mk 2 subs (4) - 11.4.6

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post #2303 of 3485 Old 08-30-2016, 01:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cannga View Post
Yes until you could find an expert to refute me :-): it does use all speakers but the only anomaly corrected is image position, not time/phase/frequencies/etc.
On what do you base this conviction?

My statements are based on the impression I have from reading and conversations with Curt that at all times, including with remapping, the Bessel function algorithms work to maintain an ideal soundfield, including phase behavior.


Quote:
Originally Posted by cannga View Post
If it sounds "magical," well that's because you are comparing apples (stereo) and oranges (upmixing).
I should have put my first use of "magical" in quotes; my meaning was not per high end press poesy, but when everything gels and it sounds like there are real instruments there.

Curt is busy with CEDIA, but I'll email him and ask him to straighten this out when he gets a chance.
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post #2304 of 3485 Old 08-30-2016, 04:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanFrancis View Post
Going on 6 years now, I've been asking for per-channel compressors and limiters to help protect loudspeaker systems....still waiting as far as I know. It's odd, too since you would think these features that can be used to protect a system would be implemented before more "bells and whistles" of whatever surround-flavor-of-the-day.
I respectfully disagree. I am grateful Trinnov did not delay their advancement to the most advanced consumer processor ever conceived, by addressing every customer's custom request on outdated platforms/formats.

The updates they provide are not simple firmware "touch-ups". I have seen the addition of major codecs, great reporting tools, PEQ? (See above), to name a few, all coated/presented in Trinnov's outstanding interface.
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post #2305 of 3485 Old 08-30-2016, 06:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thxman View Post
I respectfully disagree. I am grateful Trinnov did not delay their advancement to the most advanced consumer processor ever conceived, by addressing every customer's custom request on outdated platforms/formats.

The updates they provide are not simple firmware "touch-ups". I have seen the addition of major codecs, great reporting tools, PEQ? (See above), to name a few, all coated/presented in Trinnov's outstanding interface.
I don't want this to come off as snarky, because this isn't meant that way...but print in a forum, it's always a risk.

6 years ago there was no Altitude, nor Amethyst, and the only way to have Trinnov Processing was the Optimizer (outboard, whether labeled by Trinnov or ADA)- there were no advanced codecs, etc. Compressors/Limiters are on the most basic of DSPs, Trinnov Optimizer (the basis for everything that is in the Altitude) is perhaps one of the most advanced DSPs available.

So, to be accurate, the "features" I've asked for predate anything you mention by at least 3 years. They would not have caused any delay in any development- and I know I'm not the only professional to have requested these features.

Am I happy about the PEQ? sure I am! but there are still things you can do inside a "standard" DSP that you cannot do inside the Trinnov because of the software.

I certainly don't expect it to be a panacea, but there are no preamp-processors that offer that type of protection on a per-channel basis. Some allow you to set a max output volume, but that really isn't the same as having a compressor feathered into a hard limiter at the balls-out limits of a system.

There's a reason these features exist and get used on concert playback systems and such.

In my mind it is yet another opportunity for Trinnov to separate themselves from the "traditional" brands.

So that's what I was getting at- bells and whistles are outside the core Optimizer that Trinnov has had since day one. What I would like to see is a real addition to the core Optimizer (essentially what the PEQ is, and honestly should be part of that software update).

So; thank you for respectfully disagreeing, hopefully my response/explanation was equally as respectful.

Dan
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post #2306 of 3485 Old 08-30-2016, 06:16 PM
 
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sounds to me that should be done in the amp, no?
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post #2307 of 3485 Old 08-30-2016, 06:23 PM
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Noah, my answer simply came from comparing what you wrote about remapping, to what actually is on Trinnov website. They just don't seem to be describing the same thing to me:

Noah: "That may or may not be true, since no algorithm is perfect, but the much more likely situation is that the speakers and the room, both individually and in combination, are generating phase and time domain anomalies."
Trinnov Remappinghttps://www.trinnov.com/technologies...ng/?lang=en_us
The Remapping technology of the Optimizer is based on the ability to calculate the acoustic field that is produced by a set of loudspeakers. This calculation is possible thanks to the Fourier-Bessel decomposition of the acoustic field into a certain number of coefficients that correspond to the spherical harmonics. Just as the Fourier decomposition is commonly used to analyze a signal in the frequency domain, the Fourier-Bessel decomposition can be used to analyze an acoustic field in the space domain, by decomposing into a sum of elementary radiation patterns that are referred to as spherical harmonics in mathematics.
The function that provides the resulting acoustic field from the input signals is called a “radiation matrix”. In a pseudo math notation: Input Signal * Radiation Matrix = Acoustic Field

The only correction I could see is an arbitrary spacial correction to ITU recommendation (that brings the interesting question - why *should* all speakers fire in Stereo mode if your Stereo L&R are already in "correct" ITU position?); remapping per se is not an attempt to "correct" for speaker response in the room. Could it be you're mistaken room correction with remapping? BTW, the other aspect I find interesting is that Trinnov went so far as describing remapping as an "universal upmixing" technology (that brings even yet more interesting questions - what happens if you use Atmos upmixer on top of this?). I agree it is an extremely fun discussion. I don't profess to have all the answers, but definitely have a lot of questions.

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post #2308 of 3485 Old 08-30-2016, 06:32 PM
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It's been my experience that these loudspeaker/system protection filters are applied in a DSP that sits between the head-end and the amplifier. Some amps have built-in DSP (certainly becoming more common with the class-D stuff around now from powersoft, db acoustik, etc) but not all.

It's no secret that I'm a fan of the heavier, more traditional class AB amplifiers built by a certain company in the LA area- at least for high-pass duties. These are very much a traditional input-GAIN-OUTPUT design, and therefore require the processing be done prior to the analog input of the amp.

YES, it requires quality DACs in the processor(s) whether preamp like a Trinnov, or DSP. But good DACs are easier to come by these days.

So I can't speak for others, but that is certainly my method of thinking.

Dan

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post #2309 of 3485 Old 08-31-2016, 10:34 AM
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cannga, thanks for providing the info from Trinnov.

[quote=cannga;46438065]
Trinnov Remappinghttps://www.trinnov.com/technologies...ng/?lang=en_us
The Remapping technology of the Optimizer is based on the ability to calculate the acoustic field that is produced by a set of loudspeakers. This calculation is possible thanks to the Fourier-Bessel decomposition of the acoustic field into a certain number of coefficients that correspond to the spherical harmonics. Just as the Fourier decomposition is commonly used to analyze a signal in the frequency domain, the Fourier-Bessel decomposition can be used to analyze an acoustic field in the space domain, by decomposing into a sum of elementary radiation patterns that are referred to as spherical harmonics in mathematics.
The function that provides the resulting acoustic field from the input signals is called a “radiation matrix”. In a pseudo math notation: Input Signal * Radiation Matrix = Acoustic Field

Quote:
Originally Posted by cannga View Post
The only correction I could see is an arbitrary spacial correction to ITU recommendation (that brings the interesting question - why *should* all speakers fire in Stereo mode if your Stereo L&R are already in "correct" ITU position?)
Because merely placing the speakers in the correct locations doesn't assure the correct acoustic field is generated.

And if using remapping didn't also preserve the correct acoustic field it would be be self-defeating.

On further thought, perhaps I'm ascribing more to what Trinnov does than is appropriate - I just realized that I don't know how it defines what the correct acoustic field is in the first place.

For stereo, is it two perfect speakers in a perfectly (and how is that defined) designed and executed listening room, perfect speakers in an anechoic chamber, etc.

Noah
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post #2310 of 3485 Old 08-31-2016, 10:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

On further thought, perhaps I'm ascribing more to what Trinnov does than is appropriate - I just realized that I don't know how it defines what the correct acoustic field is in the first place.
Neither do I. That's part of the black art how remapping is actually executed. Is it as simple as a bunch of simultaneous equations predicting ideal placement from known elevation and azimuth of physical speakers? I doubt it or everyone would be doing it LOL. And that leaves the accuracy of predicting the ideal out of it, which gets into multiple data points, model specification and interaction effects of the speakers, not just main effect math. That path leads to madness or becoming an econometrician .

Quote:
For stereo, is it two perfect speakers in a perfectly (and how is that defined) designed and executed listening room, perfect speakers in an anechoic chamber, etc.
Well, if you put it that way.....you never have the ideal placement in the real world because there's always random fluctuations in speaker measurement even with the highly sensitive Trinnov 3D mic (+/- 1 degree I believe), and there's room factors that can drive differences in the observed angles even with physically symmetric speaker locations and identical speakers. So literally speaking there's only a probabilistic answer, not a deterministic one with perfect fit. That's why seeking perfection is pointless. You either live with the close-enough-for-my-ears placement or use remapping to achieve a close estimate of perfection. You just want the answer to be as consistent as possible while you enjoy the results.

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