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post #2521 of 3490 Old 12-01-2016, 05:11 AM
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Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post
There are two ways, first is talk to B^W and ask them for the recommendations and replicate, then fine tune. The other is measure the individual drivers using the mic and then follow the croossover procedures.

The cross over setup is the first major block tackled in the Trinnov class.
I understand and thanks for the reply.
In regards to measuring with the mic, is it just a matter of playing a pink noise with a full band signal and chech the response to see where is the rolloff and use this information to set the crossover point in the Altitude?


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Now... I have not seen this discussed before herein:

Coming during Q1 2017 : the Altitude32 will be Roon-ready, allowing you to stream all the music available on your computers, NAS drives and music services like TIDAL, directly to the Altitude32 and play them at the highest-possible quality.

I will appreciate a for dummies level primer at that time, because I am totally unfamiliar with roon tidal etc etc... Working hard so my projector clients don;t have to buy an expensive hdmi Alchemy card twice from Barco.
This is a feature that I've asked to my dealer to check with Trinnov if was possible to install a Roon endpoint due to the use of Linux on the Altitude.

I've been using Roon for a while now ... basically you've a server installed on a machine (iMac, NAS, linux box, Windows ... you decide) the Roon server will be able to organise your music library in a unique and very appealing way and it will stream (using a lossless protocol) to any Roon-End point.

So for example in my case the setup will be:
iMac with RoonServer Connected to a NAS with all my Music -> via the home network to the Altitude -> from the Altitude to my HiFi Schiit Yggdrasil DAC (don't laugh at the name ) -> To the Manley PreAmp -> to Primaluna Dialogue HP amps.

But Roon is MUCH more ....
more information can be found on the official site : https://roonlabs.com/howroonworks.html

but feel free to ask ...

Ben
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post #2522 of 3490 Old 12-01-2016, 05:35 AM
 
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Basically yes, but you need knowledge on what fir filters sound more musical and true. PM The Lion Walter my in-house guru, he is pre-eminent in this dept with a decade of intense research, he convinced Bob Katz to go the ACOURATE ROUTE...

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post #2523 of 3490 Old 12-01-2016, 11:19 AM
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Any new firmware updates?

Goodbye to a great audio and video genius and writer... JOHN GANNON. I enjoyed your friendship, wit and a nice long run we took around Indianapolis at CEDIA years back... and for buying my Runco 980 Ultra years back... you saved my ass! Rest in peace.
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post #2524 of 3490 Old 12-01-2016, 11:43 AM
 
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They are always coming probably right before ISE.
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post #2525 of 3490 Old 12-02-2016, 03:22 AM
 
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I thought he was removing the crossovers. You are right Mashie.
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post #2526 of 3490 Old 12-02-2016, 06:37 AM
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Had Adam Pelz back last night for a couple small tweaks (since he was in town doing a big update for Mark B).

We demo'd some familiar clips at high levels and WOW! Outstanding - the clip from Mr and MRs Smith and Unbroken - just fantastic with great dilaog clarity at ultra high levels. A couple of small tweaks and all seems perfectly dialed in. Just a great result!

Enjoyed talking 'Turkey' (literally) and a little vino !
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Goodbye to a great audio and video genius and writer... JOHN GANNON. I enjoyed your friendship, wit and a nice long run we took around Indianapolis at CEDIA years back... and for buying my Runco 980 Ultra years back... you saved my ass! Rest in peace.
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post #2527 of 3490 Old 12-04-2016, 05:10 AM
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Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post
I thought he was removing the crossovers. You are right Mashie.
I understand and thanks for the clarification.

Please let me ask the question in another way

How would you use/setup the Altitude if you want to bi-amp a speaker like the B&W 804 using two channels ?

Thank you very much for all the help in clarifying those questions that I've got about this incredible unit.

Ben
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post #2528 of 3490 Old 12-04-2016, 05:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mandragora View Post
I understand and thanks for the clarification.

Please let me ask the question in another way

How would you use/setup the Altitude if you want to bi-amp a speaker like the B&W 804 using two channels ?

Thank you very much for all the help in clarifying those questions that I've got about this incredible unit.

Ben
Using two channels on the Altitude for feeding one single speaker only makes sense if you want to apply Altitude's active cross-over capabilities. For this you need to by-pass the speakers' built-in passive cross-overs. Is this what you want to do?
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post #2529 of 3490 Old 12-04-2016, 06:05 AM
 
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Post

and there are two ways

emulate the passive crossover alraedy in it

experiment with a more complex crossover

the crossover suite is very powerful in that you can measure the speaker drivers as sited and then select slope, Q, fir filter etc I understand the basiscs but i do no select comp[ponents and deign system solely on the numbers I am a seasoned subjectivist. I care less about how it works and more as how well it works. Science is already understood , I am interested in the not studied psycoachoustical aspects of the Altitude, but Walter is the King Of That ***** in Europe at least..

Ben that is why I gave you the name of forum member The Lion, tell him i sent you and he can send you a more specific example how a German scientist would go about crossovering the 8034 will your altitude, it will be acoutical correct, now do I always like this level of precision, NO to me when Walter Creafully matches each level on a 12-24-32 channel system , I told him and Arnaud SQUARE (A2)* at CEDIA , NOT IMMERSIVE ENOUGH, so I do it by the seat of my pants but having started at this perfectly leveled matched system. I am mixing the crossover function with the effects of channel mapping and gain. I just let Walter do his precise science and if i like it great, if not I certainly covered my a$$ with the enthusiasts community. Rules to me are a threshold for stress testing.


DEFINITION: *A2 [ARNAUD SQUARE] IS A TERM THAT IDENTIFIES THE CEO ARNAUD LABORIE AND ARNAUD DESTINAY, working together. They have a symbiotic and apparently synergistic collaborative relationship, so in deference to their combined results I came up with Arnaud SQUARE or A2 for short. For example the unified immersive format (like what we are trying to implement in LOGE) final paper will be released at ISE.

It is being prepared by A2 . Simple right?



Here with Mark Seaton, A. Destinay and the Founder A. Laborie. So theshorthand would be S+A2.

Come think of it nothing has a more badass IMMERSION Gangsta ring to it than C, YOU CAN ALL CALL ME C.

Group Shot. Gangsta C in royal blue.
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post #2530 of 3490 Old 12-04-2016, 11:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mandragora View Post
I understand and thanks for the clarification.

Please let me ask the question in another way

How would you use/setup the Altitude if you want to bi-amp a speaker like the B&W 804 using two channels ?

Thank you very much for all the help in clarifying those questions that I've got about this incredible unit.

Ben
Ben,

I've actually done what you're asking about- I have a client with Tri-amplified front loudspeakers and they contain internal passive crossovers. My experience was the following: when I tried to send limited-bandwidth signal to each section of the loudspeaker (I would set each pass-band larger than what was covered by the passive crossover either side of the high-pass and low-pass frequencies)- there was a rather unpleasant interaction between the electronic and passive crossovers. Ultimately, what was successful was the following:

-set each pass-band as a high-pass only and allow the passive to do anything above the respective high pass. For example, your speakers are rated for 20hz-35khz, but do so with lower distortion if you play them 120hz and up. So if you set your high-pass to 130 or more (x2 channels- one for the "woofer" section and one for the "tweeter" section) you will enjoy better performance. The 804s are specified as reproducing 120-20khz at .3% distortion, so that is where I would focus their involvement.

Now, please forgive me for not knowing the specifics of your system, but given the fact that each Altitude has a limited number of outputs, you may just want to setup a single channel for the 804s (each) and use a y-cable to split to 2 amplifier channels. I understand that what I'm doing above is slightly less efficient from an amplifier/loudspeaker bandwidth usage standpoint, but it does work, and my client and I have been happy with the results. Otherwise, you pretty much have to eliminate the passive crossovers in the loudspeakers and do it using the Altitude from start to finish- this is fairly easy to accomplish, but quite honestly is rather extreme given the loudspeakers. I personally wouldn't even recommend bypassing the passive crossover units of a loudspeaker unless the drivers were extremely robust. Every loudspeaker has some compromise(s) designed into it- whether it be cost, load to the amplifier, phase response, output, etc. there are various reasons why the decisions are made to make these compromises and generally they are done for good reason.... so you do typically open up a pandora's box of potential issues when you bypass what is built into a loudspeaker.

Hopefully, this is helpful.

Dan
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post #2531 of 3490 Old 12-04-2016, 12:37 PM
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Hi

I have a little question and i love to get the answer plz..

My system is 9.2.6 Triad gold (in room LCR for the AT screen and gold omni SE for the rest including immersive speakers)

My Q: can i set up the front LCR in triamp and the omni in baiamp ?

And thx for helping in advance

Thx

Ahmed


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post #2532 of 3490 Old 12-04-2016, 12:58 PM
 
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for sure. if u have enough channels.
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post #2533 of 3490 Old 12-04-2016, 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post
for sure. if u have enough channels.


Thx Peter for the quick reply

U mean the altitude channel? Or the amplifier?




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post #2534 of 3490 Old 12-04-2016, 01:05 PM
 
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altitude first need, amps second need. yes for both.
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post #2535 of 3490 Old 12-04-2016, 01:12 PM
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altitude first need, amps second need. yes for both.


Mmm I have the 16 ch. altitude and i have 2 QSC dca 16222 and 3 QSC dca 1824 for the surround




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post #2536 of 3490 Old 12-04-2016, 01:45 PM
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well, with 16 channels for output- you don't have enough to triamp and biamp each loudspeaker. You need 9 channels for the fronts, and 12 channels for the overhead: that's 21 output channels (if you don't do what I proposed for Ben above). If you're going to just use a single output channel for each loudspeaker- then you're fine as long as you have the required amplifier channels.

Dan

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post #2537 of 3490 Old 12-04-2016, 02:01 PM
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well, with 16 channels for output- you don't have enough to triamp and biamp each loudspeaker. You need 9 channels for the fronts, and 12 channels for the overhead: that's 21 output channels (if you don't do what I proposed for Ben above). If you're going to just use a single output channel for each loudspeaker- then you're fine as long as you have the required amplifier channels.



Dan


Clear enough great thx Don to u and peter for ur help

Appreciate

Ahmed


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Using two channels on the Altitude for feeding one single speaker only makes sense if you want to apply Altitude's active cross-over capabilities. For this you need to by-pass the speakers' built-in passive cross-overs. Is this what you want to do?
Hello Maike,

and thank you very much for the reply.
I would not dare to open up the speaker to bypass the internal crossover ... honestly I don't know if my dealer/installer will go for that route.
At the moment I'm trying to understand better how everything works ... unfortunately as scientist I'm one of those customers who wants to understand what is going on I won't be satisfied with a short answer from my installer like "we do this way because it is better ..."

in regards to the active crossovers would it make sense to set a cutoff frequency as high as possible so basically feeding both HF and LF taps of the B&W with a broadband signal ?

Thank you very much for helping me in understanding more about this unit and its features.

I'll have it installed on the 23rd on a 7.2.4 system.
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post #2539 of 3490 Old 12-04-2016, 03:47 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mandragora View Post
Hello Maike,

and thank you very much for the reply.
I would not dare to open up the speaker to bypass the internal crossover ... honestly I don't know if my dealer/installer will go for that route.
At the moment I'm trying to understand better how everything works ... unfortunately as scientist I'm one of those customers who wants to understand what is going on I won't be satisfied with a short answer from my installer like "we do this way because it is better ..."

in regards to the active crossovers would it make sense to set a cutoff frequency as high as possible so basically feeding both HF and LF taps of the B&W with a broadband signal ?

Thank you very much for helping me in understanding more about this unit and its features.

I'll have it installed on the 23rd on a 7.2.4 system.
Paypal the Lion $200 for Das Lektur and sleep in peace afterwards knowing you are the master of IIMERSIVE AUDIO..He is THE Altitude's German Scientist he loves to explain. Fir Filter concepts

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post #2540 of 3490 Old 12-04-2016, 03:50 PM
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Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post
and there are two ways

emulate the passive crossover alraedy in it

experiment with a more complex crossover

the crossover suite is very powerful in that you can measure the speaker drivers as sited and then select slope, Q, fir filter etc I understand the basiscs but i do no select comp[ponents and deign system solely on the numbers I am a seasoned subjectivist. I care less about how it works and more as how well it works. Science is already understood , I am interested in the not studied psycoachoustical aspects of the Altitude, but Walter is the King Of That ***** in Europe at least..

Ben that is why I gave you the name of forum member The Lion, tell him i sent you and he can send you a more specific example how a German scientist would go about crossovering the 8034 will your altitude, it will be acoutical correct, now do I always like this level of precision, NO to me when Walter Creafully matches each level on a 12-24-32 channel system , I told him and Arnaud SQUARE (A2)* at CEDIA , NOT IMMERSIVE ENOUGH, so I do it by the seat of my pants but having started at this perfectly leveled matched system. I am mixing the crossover function with the effects of channel mapping and gain. I just let Walter do his precise science and if i like it great, if not I certainly covered my a$$ with the enthusiasts community. Rules to me are a threshold for stress testing.
Thank you very much for that, I will definitely contact him tonight (Japan time so early morning Europe time ... yes currently I'm in Japan working on a prototype thing )

Have a nice day,

Ben
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Originally Posted by DanFrancis View Post
Ben,

I've actually done what you're asking about- I have a client with Tri-amplified front loudspeakers and they contain internal passive crossovers. My experience was the following: when I tried to send limited-bandwidth signal to each section of the loudspeaker (I would set each pass-band larger than what was covered by the passive crossover either side of the high-pass and low-pass frequencies)- there was a rather unpleasant interaction between the electronic and passive crossovers. Ultimately, what was successful was the following:

-set each pass-band as a high-pass only and allow the passive to do anything above the respective high pass. For example, your speakers are rated for 20hz-35khz, but do so with lower distortion if you play them 120hz and up. So if you set your high-pass to 130 or more (x2 channels- one for the "woofer" section and one for the "tweeter" section) you will enjoy better performance. The 804s are specified as reproducing 120-20khz at .3% distortion, so that is where I would focus their involvement.

Now, please forgive me for not knowing the specifics of your system, but given the fact that each Altitude has a limited number of outputs, you may just want to setup a single channel for the 804s (each) and use a y-cable to split to 2 amplifier channels. I understand that what I'm doing above is slightly less efficient from an amplifier/loudspeaker bandwidth usage standpoint, but it does work, and my client and I have been happy with the results. Otherwise, you pretty much have to eliminate the passive crossovers in the loudspeakers and do it using the Altitude from start to finish- this is fairly easy to accomplish, but quite honestly is rather extreme given the loudspeakers. I personally wouldn't even recommend bypassing the passive crossover units of a loudspeaker unless the drivers were extremely robust. Every loudspeaker has some compromise(s) designed into it- whether it be cost, load to the amplifier, phase response, output, etc. there are various reasons why the decisions are made to make these compromises and generally they are done for good reason.... so you do typically open up a pandora's box of potential issues when you bypass what is built into a loudspeaker.

Hopefully, this is helpful.

Dan
That is exactly what I was thinking.

Due to space restrictions and WAF factor (more WAF than space )I won't be able to add additional speakers so given my past experience and current with B&W where they greatly benefit from bi-amp I thought to use as much as I could the altitude.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanFrancis View Post
Ben,
Now, please forgive me for not knowing the specifics of your system, but given the fact that each Altitude has a limited number of outputs, you may just want to setup a single channel for the 804s (each) and use a y-cable to split to 2 amplifier channels. I understand that what I'm doing above is slightly less efficient from an amplifier/loudspeaker bandwidth usage standpoint, but it does work, and my client and I have been happy with the results. Otherwise, you pretty much have to eliminate the passive crossovers in the loudspeakers and do it using the Altitude from start to finish- this is fairly easy to accomplish, but quite honestly is rather extreme given the loudspeakers. I personally wouldn't even recommend bypassing the passive crossover units of a loudspeaker unless the drivers were extremely robust. Every loudspeaker has some compromise(s) designed into it- whether it be cost, load to the amplifier, phase response, output, etc. there are various reasons why the decisions are made to make these compromises and generally they are done for good reason.... so you do typically open up a pandora's box of potential issues when you bypass what is built into a loudspeaker.

Hopefully, this is helpful.

Dan
My system is composed by the following, maybe this cal help with suggestions and opinions:
Speakers
Left/Right : B&W 804 D3
Center : B&W HTM1 D3
Surround Left/Right : B&W 703
Surround Back Left/Right : B&W DM603
[INDENT]Ceiling :Goldenear Super Sat3INDENT]
Subs: Paradigm Sub2x2
Thank you very much for the help,

have a nice day,

Ben
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post #2542 of 3490 Old 12-04-2016, 09:21 PM
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I am not sure if it is a bug or not but when I use the Cable which is usually two channels audio, if I engage the Upmixer (I tried Atmos and DTS) the LFE channel doesn't appear. It comes on the output but not at the source.
I tried my HTPC with some "Make MKV" files with same issues. Any similar experience?

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I am not sure if it is a bug or not but when I use the Cable which is usually two channels audio, if I engage the Upmixer (I tried Atmos and DTS) the LFE channel doesn't appear. It comes on the output but not at the source.
I tried my HTPC with some "Make MKV" files with same issues. Any similar experience?
Dude.....

you broke it.....




does the Auro up mix do the same thing? My thought is that it's a funky setup from the Cable source where there isn't a .1 signal present- Maybe try sending all low-pass to .1 as well as LFE ( I think that is a setting in the initial room/speaker setup GUI ). That should bring back the bass, then just save it as another preset and recall it when you watch TV.

Dan
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post #2544 of 3490 Old 12-04-2016, 11:26 PM
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Dude.....

you broke it.....




does the Auro up mix do the same thing? My thought is that it's a funky setup from the Cable source where there isn't a .1 signal present- Maybe try sending all low-pass to .1 as well as LFE ( I think that is a setting in the initial room/speaker setup GUI ). That should bring back the bass, then just save it as another preset and recall it when you watch TV.

Dan

Dan, thank for the reply. Yes all low pass is sent to .1. Don't get me wrong, I have bass but the column on the LFE source doesn't move...

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post #2545 of 3490 Old 12-06-2016, 09:28 AM
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Dan, thank for the reply. Yes all low pass is sent to .1. Don't get me wrong, I have bass but the column on the LFE source doesn't move...
The LFE is an INPUT signal. On a Stereo input, there is no LFE channel present. The bass you hear is the Bass Managed output from your Left and Right channels. If you slide over to the right, you will see your output meters, which will show the sub output activity.

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post #2546 of 3490 Old 12-06-2016, 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by appelz View Post
The LFE is an INPUT signal. On a Stereo input, there is no LFE channel present. The bass you hear is the Bass Managed output from your Left and Right channels. If you slide over to the right, you will see your output meters, which will show the sub output activity.

So the way I see it the upmixer doesn't create LFE channel? Because I see all 11 input channels but not the LFE.

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post #2547 of 3490 Old 12-06-2016, 02:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kamenoff View Post
So the way I see it the upmixer doesn't create LFE channel? Because I see all 11 input channels but not the LFE.
My $0.02 - that makes sense, since unless there's specific LFE content already in the mix (e.g. a Dolby Digital 5.1 surround mix), the upmixer will be taking the existing input and mixing it to multiple channels. If that native raw input has no LFE content, neither does the upmixed content. At that point if you have bass management active, the content below your crossover will be redirected to the subs after upmixing, so it shows up on the Output under the sub(s) channels. If you don't have subs and/or don't have bass management activated, that redirected bass would stay with the speakers associated with the channel to which they've been upmixed. In that content the signal flow is pretty logical. In other words, what Adam said .

For two channel stereo, as long as the content below the crossover is redirected to the subs in your system at the end of the day, it's one of those "six of one" vs. "half dozen of the other" situations .
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Audio Gear: Trinnov Altitude 32 (24 channel), NAD M27 amps (3)
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Last edited by sdrucker; 12-06-2016 at 02:27 PM.
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post #2548 of 3490 Old 12-06-2016, 02:47 PM
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Thanks.

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post #2549 of 3490 Old 12-07-2016, 11:11 AM
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Does the Altitude32 come with the calibration mic and software or are they purchased separately?
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post #2550 of 3490 Old 12-07-2016, 11:50 AM
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Mic is sold sep.
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