Gravity - did you notice the "overhead flies" sequence? Wow - stunning sound engineering and a worthy test of our "ultra" systems! - Page 14 - AVS Forum
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post #391 of 798 Old 07-04-2014, 08:04 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
That's as true of Denon, Pioneer and Yamaha as well. And a $2,500 processor can hardly be called 'budget' surely?

Personally, I think it was a bad decision, and Onkyo have lost me as a customer. I'm sure they will survive that
I think it clearly can as looking at as 'budget, bargained' price as compared to the top end, E.G> Trinnov Altitude, Datasat RS-20i, Theta CB IV, Meridian, it comes in at about 10% (or less) of the price PLUS it's always heavily discounted, Onkyo loads up a zillion of unneeded features and inputs to appeal to the budget conscious AND it will be one of the lowest cost SSPs you can buy with Atmos (which probably has a large intitial licensing fee).

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post #392 of 798 Old 07-04-2014, 08:10 AM
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Originally Posted by thebland View Post
I think it clearly can as looking at as 'budget, bargained' price as compared to the top end, E.G> Trinnov Altitude, Datasat RS-20i, Theta CB IV, Meridian, it comes in at about 10% (or less) of the price PLUS it's always heavily discounted, Onkyo loads up a zillion of unneeded features and inputs to appeal to the budget conscious AND it will be one of the lowest cost SSPs you can buy with Atmos (which probably has a large intitial licensing fee).
Fair enough. You see every product from Onkyo, Pioneer, Yamaha, Denon and Marantz as 'budget' products. I don't.
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post #393 of 798 Old 07-04-2014, 08:12 AM
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Originally Posted by cannga View Post
Thanks for the excellent info: so the first 4 extra speakers beyond the base 7.1 of Dolby Atmos are central and not over front and rear speakers, like Auro?
In other words, 7.1.4 of Atmos locates extra speakers more centrally towards middle of room, whereas 7.1.4 of Auro locates extra speakers over front and rear speakers?

Another quesion please: Has DTS released recommendation for DTS MDA's speaker placement? Is there a similar diagram to the one for Dolby Atmos above?



.
I don't have a lot of time to convince anyone but I admonish Sanjay and other would be home theater atmos designers, that they should not be taking in the Japanase partners main atmos layout as the end all. I do not know if it was getting myself banned at the atmos thread (for saying exactly how it should go down for the high end) that did it, but it got Dolby's attention, yesterday I had 4 emails from the very top atmos brass at dolby.

IF YOU ARE GOING TO do HT right, you should have a wall to ceiling PIVOT screen, in that case follow the CINEMA LAYOUT INSTEAD, which means forward Height batteries deployed as high up in the screen.like so.



I am forewarning that the japanese partners preferred methods and procedures are stricly for the Mid End (isn't there another part of the forum for that. The high end theaters will be a small version of the cinema standard.

With a ricochet in the ceiling speaker with similar driver than the direct lcr you will NOT be able to perceive the complete resolution, this should have been accomplished with sound projector phased piston arrays a la yamaha to be able to create the pinpoint directionality.

As to what type of ceiling treatment was okd by the atmos team to bounce the top of screen channels and back of room heights above peoples heads? (Not saying that it applies to mid end home theater atmos modules).

These were approved for rooms like skoll or aegir:

And to anyone wanting to do a serious atmos state of the art system, I have been privy to the road-map on the professional atmos processor and with it's upconverting algorithms which will be... I'll drop the bombs on my blog over the weekend with all the juicy details. Tata!
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post #394 of 798 Old 07-04-2014, 08:26 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
Fair enough. You see every product from Onkyo, Pioneer, Yamaha, Denon and Marantz as 'budget' products. I don't.
Like all else in this world, it's all relative.

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There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #395 of 798 Old 07-04-2014, 08:32 AM
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Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post
I don't have a lot of time to convince anyone but I admonish Sanjay and other would be home theater atmos designers, that they should not be taking in the Japanase partners main atmos layout as the end all. I do not know if getting myself banned at the atmos thread for saying exactly how it should go down for the high end, but it got Dolby's attention, yesterday I had 4 email from the very top atmos brass at dolby. IF YOU ARE GOING TO do HT right you should have a wall to ceiling screen, in that case follow the CINEMA LAYOUT INSTEAD, which means forward Height batteries deployed as high up in the screen.

I am forewarning that the japanese partners preferred methods and procedures are stricly for the Mid End (isn't there another part of the forum for that. The high end theaters will be a small version of the cinema standard.

With a ricochet in the ceiling speaker with similar driver than the direct lcr you will NOT be able to perceive the complete resolution, this should have been accomplished with sound projector phased piston arrays a la yamaha to be able to create the pinpoint directionality.

As to what type of ceiling treatment was okd by the atmos team to bounce the top of screen channels and back of room heights above peoples heads? (Not saying that it applies to mid end home theater atmos modules).

These were approved for rooms like skoll or aegir:
I think for me, having a screen that is 6' tall, That would yield the heights sitting almost on top of the LCRs. I've decided, as you know, to put them just forward of the screen but up higher in my tray and will be able to get a 30 degree or more angle to the main seating. I imagine if my screen was 8' - 10' tall, behind the screen would work. What is the minimum separation between speakers? In my room the LCRs will be at the line near just above the midway point of the screen height which would put the heights almost right on top of them. Decisions, decisions..

My Home Theater of the Month- Le Petit Trianon

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #396 of 798 Old 07-04-2014, 08:34 AM
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Like all else in this world, it's all relative.
Yeah - didn't some old guy with long white hair mention that once?
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post #397 of 798 Old 07-04-2014, 08:38 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
That's as true of Denon, Pioneer and Yamaha as well. And a $2,500 processor can hardly be called 'budget' surely?

We don't really know why Onkyo took the decision to drop Audyssey. We do know that Atmos and Audyssey together need a lot of processing horsepower. Denon chose to double up on processors to cater for it. Onkyo chose to drop Audyssey. There may be other issues we are unaware of - eg licensing issues with Onkyo/Audyssey. And for sure, it is bound to be a commercial decision based on price and margins. That is true, of course, of all such decisions made by commercial companies.

Personally, I think it was a bad decision, and Onkyo have lost me as a customer. I'm sure they will survive that
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Fair enough. You see every product from Onkyo, Pioneer, Yamaha, Denon and Marantz as 'budget' products. I don't.
I would guess Onkyo's decision to drop Audyssey has something to do with them taking an equity position in Pioneer. I would assume Onkyo would now have access to Pioneer's MCACC algorithm and could re-brand it as their own.

I understand your feelings regarding calling these brands out as budget. However as always, one man's ceiling is another man's floor. If you have the opportunity to move past Onkyo, Pioneer, Yamaha, Denon, Marantz, and the like you will see and hear differences just as you have pointed out your preference for Audyssey over Onkyo's AccuEQ.
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post #398 of 798 Old 07-04-2014, 08:41 AM
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I think for me, having a screen that is 6' tall, That would yield the heights sitting almost on top of the LCRs. I've decided, as you know, to put them just forward of the screen but up higher in my tray and will be able to get a 30 degree or more angle to the main seating. I imagine if my screen was 8' - 10' tall, behind the screen would work. What is the minimum separation between speakers? In my room the LCRs will be at the line near just above the midway point of the screen height which would put the heights almost right on top of them. Decisions, decisions..
I think what Dennis suggested is right on the money for you. He knows the ceiling layout. I am talking about rooms with 30 speakers, in that case you start at the front move your way back with 2 pairs and and end up the heights Flanking the dci projector hushbox in dci or up high on the wall. That is the cinema height configuration.

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post #399 of 798 Old 07-04-2014, 08:58 AM
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Fair enough. You see every product from Onkyo, Pioneer, Yamaha, Denon and Marantz as 'budget' products. I don't.
I think considering we are currently in the 20000$+ forum, these mainstream avrs are indeed budget. Considering a few here have power cables etc which would cost twice as much as the top end Onkyo.
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post #400 of 798 Old 07-04-2014, 09:20 AM
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I admonish Sanjay and other would be home theater atmos designers, that they should not be taking in the Japanase partners main atmos layout as the end all.
You're erecting a strawman just to knock it down. No one, including me, claimed that speaker configurations for Atmos receivers are the "end all". Just pointed out that 1st gen AVRs limit speaker placements to certain overhead locations.

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post #401 of 798 Old 07-04-2014, 09:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Sanjay, while I am aware object-oriented surround means speakers' exact position is not as critical, for those of us limited to 5.1.2, is there a suggested position for the extra 2? Right on top - the top middle speaker in your diagram above?

Another question please regarded what's stated on Dolby website wrt to the dual approach - mainly out of curiosity about the process. Do I understand this channel & object combination approach correctly, that for example in an Atmos 7.1.4 setup, the channel "layer" will use only the lower 7 speakers, while the object "layer" will use all 11 (7 + 4)?
Does the quote below mean for example, spaceship hum will be channel based, whereas voice will be object based - voice might be static but not ambient?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
http://www.dolby.com/us/en/technolog...lby-atmos.html
A Dolby Atmos soundtrack starts with a base layer that consists largely of static ambient sounds, mixed using the familiar channel-based method. Layered on top of these are dynamic audio elements that can be positioned and moved precisely to correspond to the images onscreen.

Regards, Can
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post #402 of 798 Old 07-04-2014, 09:57 AM
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Can, the theatrical version of Atmos has 128 tracks. The first 10 of these tracks are channel beds (L/C/R, 2 sides, 2 rears, 2 heights, and LFE channel). The remaining 118 tracks are for objects (sounds that are given x,y,z coordinates rather mixed into the channel beds).

How many channels and objects to use is up to the movie mixer. He might decide to use only 7.1 of the 9.1 channels available and make all overhead sounds into objects without putting any of those sounds in the overhead channels. So there is no way for us consumers to know how many channel beds were used for a specific mix.

Likewise, how much of all this has made it to the home version of Atmos is still unknown. Soundtracks on Blu-ray might have 7.1 or 5.1 channel beds. That could be the result of mixing choices or a limitation of the home version of Atmos. Unknown.

As for spaceship hum. It could be an object if it is heard through the doorway of the spaceship's engine room. As the camera pans, the sound from the doorway would go around the room. For scenes in the engine room, the sound could be put in channels since it is going to drone on omnidirectionally rather than move around.

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post #403 of 798 Old 07-04-2014, 11:07 AM
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You're erecting a strawman just to knock it down. No one, including me, claimed that speaker configurations for Atmos receivers are the "end all". Just pointed out that 1st gen AVRs limit speaker placements to certain overhead locations.
But because of your commanding credibility on the subject you aught not discount the 7 channels behind the screen where you did above. If you are going to guide take toll of the entire spectrum before appearing to mislead by implying that your description is wholly.
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post #404 of 798 Old 07-04-2014, 11:45 AM
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But because of your commanding credibility on the subject you aught not discount the 7 channels behind the screen where you did above. If you are going to guide take toll of the entire spectrum before appearing to mislead by implying that your description is wholly.
Atmos has 3 channels behind the screen, not 7.

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post #405 of 798 Old 07-05-2014, 08:34 AM
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I think considering we are currently in the 20000$+ forum, these mainstream avrs are indeed budget. Considering a few here have power cables etc which would cost twice as much as the top end Onkyo.
We are? OK, sorry guys, in that case. I hadn’t noticed.

I agree then - in that context all the gear I mentioned is 'budget'. (Even if anything other than a Home Depot power cable is a total waste of money ).

I'm outta here then and back to the real world....
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post #406 of 798 Old 07-06-2014, 12:30 PM
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I think considering we are currently in the 20000$+ forum, these mainstream avrs are indeed budget. Considering a few here have power cables etc which would cost twice as much as the top end Onkyo.
That's right. And all wired back to a commodity brand breaker panel available at any Home Depot or Lowes!

P.S. The same quality of breaker panel the Onkyo guy has!

Sorry, I couldn't resist
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post #407 of 798 Old 07-06-2014, 01:54 PM - Thread Starter
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We are? OK, sorry guys, in that case. I hadn’t noticed.
I agree then - in that context all the gear I mentioned is 'budget'. (Even if anything other than a Home Depot power cable is a total waste of money ).
I'm outta here then and back to the real world....
I know you're kidding, but it's the thoughts that count; and interesting thoughts are priceless. :-) You're quite "safe" to stay on this off topic thread.

Second, I am about to write my impression of the best headphone ever made http://www.abyss-headphones.com/ (beats Audeze, possibly even Stax SR 009) and it's "only" $5000. So there, also sub $20k - only has to be interesting.

Regards, Can
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post #408 of 798 Old 07-08-2014, 10:07 AM
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Atmos has 3 channels behind the screen, not 7.
In whatever world you exist maybe because the diagrams show the center fills for cinema use and in Skoll v.2 the behind the screen first pair of heights were approved by the atmos team for the cp-850 install.
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post #409 of 798 Old 07-08-2014, 11:14 AM
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In whatever world you exist maybe because the diagrams show the center fills for cinema use and in Skoll v.2 the behind the screen first pair of heights were approved by the atmos team for the cp-850 install.
OMG, you don't know the difference between channels and speakers.

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post #410 of 798 Old 07-08-2014, 11:19 AM
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OMG, you don't know the difference between channels and speakers.
i am taking about output from processor
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post #411 of 798 Old 07-08-2014, 11:47 AM
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i am taking about output from processor
I haven't changed topics. Aside from objects, Atmos has 9.1 channels. 3 of those channels are behind the screen. You can put 7 speakers back there, but it won't change the fact that Atmos has 3 screen channels.

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But there is a diagram, Sanjay.


My Dual 18" LLT subs 120dB down to 10hz

 

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I think for me, I'm going to set up
my speakers on an Auro set up (plus rear heights). All heights aimed at main listening position. I still have a hard time seeing Dobly winning this when they make up about 10-20% of Blu releases compared to DTS. I'm not sure what Auro thinks it's trump card is either...
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post #414 of 798 Old 07-08-2014, 04:18 PM
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I think for me, I'm going to set up
my speakers on an Auro set up (plus rear heights). All heights aimed at main listening position. I still have a hard time seeing Dobly winning this when they make up about 10-20% of Blu releases compared to DTS. I'm not sure what Auro thinks it's trump card is either...
How do you know that this will not change with the release of Atmos?

There has been no Atmos at home til now.

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post #415 of 798 Old 07-08-2014, 05:09 PM
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But there is a diagram, Sanjay.

And DCI Atmos Brass approved to boot, ss.
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post #416 of 798 Old 07-08-2014, 05:10 PM
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I think for me, I'm going to set up
my speakers on an Auro set up (plus rear heights). All heights aimed at main listening position. I still have a hard time seeing Dobly winning this when they make up about 10-20% of Blu releases compared to DTS. I'm not sure what Auro thinks it's trump card is either...
DTS UHD is the Barco Camps trump card.
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post #417 of 798 Old 07-08-2014, 06:02 PM
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And DCI Atmos Brass approved to boot, ss.
Their approval cannot will additional channel beds into existence. You're still confusing channel with speakers.

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post #418 of 798 Old 07-09-2014, 08:16 AM
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Their approval cannot will additional channel beds into existence. You're still confusing channel with speakers.
What is important to you is completely unimportant to me I dont care about the bed I care about the coverage position and angling of the speaker channels. Again semantics.
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post #419 of 798 Old 07-09-2014, 09:56 AM
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What is important to you is completely unimportant to me I dont care about the bed I care about the coverage position and angling of the speaker channels. Again semantics.
Not a question of what is important to either one of us. I was merely correcting some misinformation. You claimed that Atmos has "7 channels behind the screen" when it in fact has 3 channels behind the screen.

Sanjay
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post #420 of 798 Old 07-09-2014, 02:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post
I think for me, I'm going to set up
my speakers on an Auro set up (plus rear heights). All heights aimed at main listening position. I still have a hard time seeing Dobly winning this when they make up about 10-20% of Blu releases compared to DTS. I'm not sure what Auro thinks it's trump card is either...
Why would you do that? Auro can't even find its way into cinemas. What makes you think they can catch up to atmos which is way ahead in both markets. It a matter of time before Auro calls it quits. It doesn't have anything to offer.
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