Gravity - did you notice the "overhead flies" sequence? Wow - stunning sound engineering and a worthy test of our "ultra" systems! - Page 15 - AVS Forum
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Ultra Hi-End HT Gear ($20,000+) > Gravity - did you notice the "overhead flies" sequence? Wow - stunning sound engineering and a worthy test of our "ultra" systems!
cannga's Avatar cannga 05:46 PM 07-09-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post
I think for me, I'm going to set up
my speakers on an Auro set up (plus rear heights). All heights aimed at main listening position. I still have a hard time seeing Dolby winning this when they make up about 10-20% of Blu releases compared to DTS. I'm not sure what Auro thinks it's trump card is either...


And the percentage of Blu-ray with Auro is what? I don't care much who is going to "win," but as others have pointed out, strange reasoning to pick Auro over Atmos at this time. Atmos movie theaters, presence already on Bluray, last Oscar winner for sound (Atmos), etc.: all point towards the battle being between Dolby Atmos and DTS MDA, how does Auro come in?

Object oriented surround will render sound according to learned speaker position, so you'll be alright, but I would think to be the best possible, you would like to match Atmos diagram. This means, central ceiling speakers first in 7.1.4 if that's what they are recommending, then corners if you have more as in 7.1.8.

I could see the reasoning for Atmos to recommend the central ceiling speakers before corner height speakers: in object based surround, my understanding is that you would like to populate speakers where they are currently least "crowded." In other words, spread them around so the Atmos renderer has more evenly spread sound sources to work with (more pixel on a screen, to use an analogy). If you look at current layout, the central area of the room is the least populated, hence those first 4 go there. Corners are already covered partially with main left/right speakers.




cannga's Avatar cannga 06:19 PM 07-09-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post
I am forewarning that the japanese partners preferred methods and procedures are stricly for the Mid End (isn't there another part of the forum for that. The high end theaters will be a small version of the cinema standard.
A little elitist, no? And you don't think the "Mid-End Japanese" partners were inspected using immeasurably more rigorous standard than your custom theaters? I respect you highly as a builder and construction planner, but when it comes to surround sound processing, from observing your exchange with Sanjay and your posts, again I am afraid there is some mis-application here. And I think it starts with your idea that the hometheater should use cinema theater standard. Maybe, maybe not.

For the channel beds, the multiple screen speakers and side speakers you are pushing only apply to very large screen and very large room, for smoother panning and so that all rows could hear (for example, row 1 and row 28 each needs their own side and ceiling speaker). You cannot apply the rules of a large theater with multi row seating and 40 feet plus screen, to the smaller theater that many posters are doing here. In other words, yes there is a place for multiple front screen speakers, but not in every situation and you need to qualify your statement.

In a hometheater with say 8-14 feet screen, and 8-10 feet ceiling, adding front speakers beyond the basic 3 could in fact smear imaging and change lateral position of phantom image. (For example, adding a second right main speaker creates an new image position between those 2 speakers, R' and R", and shifts hard right sound towards the middle.) And you can't say you "don't care" because in this forum, some DO care about those things. All 3 settings below will image differently and IMHO, in a *home* theater, speakers cannot be treated like they are rabbits.
L C R
L' L" C R' R"
L C1-C2-C3 R
thebland's Avatar thebland 07:25 PM 07-09-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by cannga View Post
And the percentage of Blu-ray with Auro is what? I don't care much who is going to "win," but as others have pointed out, strange reasoning to pick Auro over Atmos at this time. Atmos movie theaters, presence already on Bluray, last Oscar winner for sound (Atmos), etc.: all point towards the battle being between Dolby Atmos and DTS MDA, how does Auro come in?

Object oriented surround will render sound according to learned speaker position, so you'll be alright, but I would think to be the best possible, you would like to match Atmos diagram. This means, central ceiling speakers first in 7.1.4 if that's what they are recommending, then corners if you have more as in 7.1.8.

I could see the reasoning for Atmos to recommend the central ceiling speakers before corner height speakers: in object based surround, my understanding is that you would like to populate speakers where they are currently least "crowded." In other words, spread them around so the Atmos renderer has more evenly spread sound sources to work with (more pixel on a screen, to use an analogy). If you look at current layout, the central area of the room is the least populated, hence those first 4 go there. Corners are already covered partially with main left/right speakers.


Auro is here and now and will upscale the sound to all speakers. I think Atmos in an SSP will be a year.... 5 years for Theta>
stephenbr's Avatar stephenbr 07:53 PM 07-09-2014
Indicators are that speaker set ups between Auro and Atmos are likely to be compatible in some SSPs (eg Datasat) or at least the SSP can adapt each codec to the available speaker set up. While I have a good 6 months or so before I install any 'height' speakers, I am currently planning to install 7 height speakers to duplicate the standard 7 speakers 'bed' layer and have 1 pair of overhead or VoG speakers. I am banking on the ability to use all 16 speakers (plus LFE) in both arrangement (noting the VoG for Auro will be dual mono in the first instance) and possibly add some front wides for a18.1 set up if the future points to that direction.

I agree that Dolby may have the front running for market acceptance but I would not dismiss Auro at this stage - it appears their Auromatic upmix processing is very impressive in itself. I for one enjoyed Logic7 on my MC12 as I know others did and for many that propriety processing was a key reason for the purchase of a Lexicon product
thebland's Avatar thebland 08:32 PM 07-09-2014
Yes, my biggest issue now is with the front heights. Esthetically, placing the heights in my tray ceiling really looks obtrusive. I'm still debating their placement. I'm likely going to mount them first in the tray and if it doesn't work, behind the screen they go..
But the Datasat looks like it should be the piece for now and likely the next year..the Strom looks great but no room correction..curious to see when the Trinnov lands.
CinemaAndy's Avatar CinemaAndy 08:36 PM 07-09-2014
Yesterday while i was helping suspend a IMAX screen at a new IMAX theater coming up in central Texas and looking down the almost 80 feet to the floor below, something made me think. Gravity - did you notice the "overhead flies" sequence? Wow. The name of this thread says it all. As this experience of Gravity overhead files, was in a auditorium just like the one this IMAX will occupy. Maybe not as big or tall, but big all the same. Then another thought came to mind while i was descending the scaffolding, 2K or the complete lack of it for any consumer product. Look how long DCP had 1080P before the consumer markets did? Most consumer markets were stuck at HD 720P for years and years while Barco, NEC, Christie, Sony showed 1080P movies at digital cinemas around the globe. By the time the consumer end got it's hand on 1080P, the above mentioned were stroking out 2K projectors and upgrades and now 4K. Now the consumer side was completely skipped and devoid of anything 2K related. Despite the praise of Blu-Ray and HD-DVD that was "supposed" to give the consumers 2K video, puttered out in a back room meeting and instead stuck strongly with 1080P video and constant width formats, that gave everyone the nice black bars on top and bottom of there movie, simply because, it was the cheap way out. Now 4K consumer is showing on the horizon, and 8K cinema is now a reality thanks to laser projection. See were i am going with this? What is in the theater and what is available for the home will never be the same. D-BOX was 15 years in the cinema before it launched a consumer platform.

There are several sound engineers and those in that field who are slamming Dolby home Atmos for nothing more than a reconfigured version of Dolby Pro Logic IIz. And i know nothing but what i read about it. I am sure Auro may be guilty of the same thing. Before me and 21 other riggers pulled the screen up, i set around for a couple hours while the guys from IMAX and Quested positioned loudspeakers that were from 4 to 8 feet tall into place behind the screen. I could walk into the center speakers, it was huge, same with the subs. Once the screen was positioned and properly aligned and before it was painted, the sound guys were doing there commissioning of the sound system. Larry, with Imax ask me to sit in the middle of the theater, i said sure. It was called simply a 3D sound test that was used to calibrate and set up volume levels for dozens of speakers scared here and there. Some of the sounds that were recorded for this is just simply amazing. The favorite one for me was the "Hey' recording. Imagine your sitting in a room with 300 other people standing all around you, and they start off saying "Hey" every second, from each person in no random order. My neck was hurting trying to "see" the speaker the 'hey" was coming from. It reminded me of the first X-Men movie that had Logan running down the halls with Xavier asking were you going. Fantastic.

I'm am, since yesterday, 100 percent convinced Atmos or Auro will never be at home what it is in the big screen. Just not going to happen in a billion years. Forget about it.
noah katz's Avatar noah katz 09:59 PM 07-09-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post
I think Atmos in an SSP will be a year.... 5 years for Theta>
?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
With full Atmos support?? I hope. I hope.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post
Yes. And confirmed.
Memory lapse, new news, or do you not consider it an SSP pending its inclusion of DPL IIx and DTS?
NorthSky's Avatar NorthSky 10:10 PM 07-09-2014
That fly(ies), in 'Gravity', is she (are they) still buzzing all around? ...In 3D or 2D?
stephenbr's Avatar stephenbr 11:20 PM 07-09-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post
Yes, my biggest issue now is with the front heights. Esthetically, placing the heights in my tray ceiling really looks obtrusive. I'm still debating their placement. I'm likely going to mount them first in the tray and if it doesn't work, behind the screen they go..
But the Datasat looks like it should be the piece for now and likely the next year..the Strom looks great but no room correction..curious to see when the Trinnov lands.
Storm Audio has also indicated that room correction is coming to their products - have no idea however what that might be however.

The Trinnov Altitude sound like a fantastic option and it is great to have at least 3 really high quality options available.
thebland's Avatar thebland 07:15 AM 07-10-2014
Speaking of obtrusive, I have my little one painting boxes that mirror the dimensions of the LT-10s.

I have to see how obtrusive they will look. SO, I'll mount these and photograph them to see. Hopefully, they simply blend in to the black of the tray.


Otherwise behind the screen they go.


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hifiaudio2's Avatar hifiaudio2 07:23 AM 07-10-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by stephenbr View Post

The Trinnov Altitude sound like a fantastic option and it is great to have at least 3 really high quality options available.

I certainly hope Trinnov can deliver a great product in the Altitude this year at a price that competes with Datasat. Seems like Trinnov is uniquely "ready" for Atmos with their mic that already gathers info on speaker angle, true location, etc.
LJG's Avatar LJG 07:39 AM 07-10-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post
Speaking of obtrusive, I have my little one painting boxes that mirror the dimensions of the LT-10s.

I have to see how obtrusive they will look. SO, I'll mount these and photograph them to see. Hopefully, they simply blend in to the black of the tray.


Otherwise behind the screen they go.

Jeff:

Just a suggestion, try covering the boxes in adhessive backed black felt, they will surely disappear much better than black paint. I have a center mounted above the screen to match the one below the screen covered in this material and you can not see it
CINERAMAX's Avatar CINERAMAX 08:33 AM 07-10-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by CinemaAndy View Post

I'm am, since yesterday, 100 percent convinced Atmos or Auro will never be at home what it is in the big screen. Just not going to happen in a billion years. Forget about it.
Sorry but that aint stopping me from pushing forward, based on what I have heard with the trinnov and the small atmos demos the future is bright.

And to those saying 7.1 BED plus a pair in ceiling is going to image fine enough I say A speaker every meter and a half is needed to completely resolve the detail heard at the dolby room. Elitist? I never claimed to be the Carl Marx of HT.
CinemaAndy's Avatar CinemaAndy 12:54 PM 07-10-2014
[QUOTE=CINERAMAX;25631969]Sorry but that aint stopping me from pushing forward, based on what I have heard with the trinnov and the small atmos demos the future is bright.

I know it's not stopping you.

The key is the spacial and direct location processing algorithms. So, instead of requiring audio mixing that takes advantage of the 64-channels desired by a full-size movie theater, a sound mixer can master a Dolby Atmos soundtrack onto a Blu-ray Disc or other compatible content source (your current Blu-ray Disc player should be compatible) within a 7, 9, or 11 channel environment by placing the designated sound objects in a position in space rather than assigning them to a specific channel or speaker. The Dolby Atmos decoder/processor in the home theater receiver, upon receiving the sound mix will then place the sound objects in their correct spatial relationship in relationship to the listener, similar to what the listener would experience in a movie theater, based on the number of channels and speakers it has to work with in the home setup.

The key paragraph is the number of speakers it has to work with.
thebland's Avatar thebland 10:21 AM 07-11-2014
Big Speakers but do Blend in.

Lon, I think I'm good with the black paint but perhaps can use your recommendations on the speakers if need be.

Obtrusive in size but seem to blend. I will have my equipment room finished next week and will mount my projector and check it out with it powered on to check any reflection. The speaker on the right, due to the box partly opened and not being flat really catches the flash, the left which was closed flat is barely perceptible. The photo of that is pretty accurate with pre-movie lighting on.

Not as bad as I looked. It looked terrible before I had my daughter paint the boxes. I will remove the bulbs from the two lights over the speakers.

Otherwise, I will make the baffle wall for 5 speakers.

Thoughts?







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hifiaudio2's Avatar hifiaudio2 10:52 AM 07-11-2014
I think I would make the baffle for 5 speakers.
thebland's Avatar thebland 11:04 AM 07-11-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by hifiaudio2 View Post
I think I would make the baffle for 5 speakers.
Tell me why. Want all input.

Angles are better with speakers in tray for Auro and Atmos Esthetics aren't ideal. Vertical speaker separation with LCRs to heights would be 18" to 24" in the baffle wall. May not be enough. Still undecided. Thanks!
hifiaudio2's Avatar hifiaudio2 11:11 AM 07-11-2014
They just seem huge for the room in that placement. If aesthetics aren't a big deak, then maybe they are OK. So much closer to the listeners may be another issue. I guess delay can take care of that but I would be concerned with precedence of sounds coming from those over that of the LCR. I hate to say it because I probably like the hardware and technology over actually watching stuff...but are you sure you really need those front heights? It just seems like trying to stuff something in a space that's not big enough to benefit from it.
thebland's Avatar thebland 11:16 AM 07-11-2014
I hear you. I chose the larger speaker because after testing SPLs at the main listening position (15 ft). This was the smallest speaker that could deliver identical high output (110 db).
sdurani's Avatar sdurani 12:23 PM 07-11-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post
Vertical speaker separation with LCRs to heights would be 18" to 24" in the baffle wall.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post
I chose the larger speaker because after testing SPLs at the main listening position (15 ft).
For that seating distance, it works out to 6-8 degrees of separation. That's barely above the detection threshold of 3.5 degrees vertical.
hifiaudio2's Avatar hifiaudio2 12:37 PM 07-11-2014
Even Kevin Bacon has more separation than that.
thebland's Avatar thebland 01:02 PM 07-11-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
For that seating distance, it works out to 6-8 degrees of separation. That's barely above the detection threshold of 3.5 degrees vertical.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hifiaudio2 View Post
Even Kevin Bacon has more separation than that.
Good one!!

Those were about my numbers, too Sanjay.
sdurani's Avatar sdurani 02:47 PM 07-11-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post
Those were about my numbers, too Sanjay.
And you're OK with that? If my sides and rears were separated by only 6-8 degrees, it would sound like a 5.1 set-up instead of 7.1.
thebland's Avatar thebland 06:03 PM 07-11-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
And you're OK with that? If my sides and rears were separated by only 6-8 degrees, it would sound like a 5.1 set-up instead of 7.1.
Now you know why I have boxes mimicking speakers up front! With this little pilot study, I have to make sure I don't create other problems placing then there.
NorthSky's Avatar NorthSky 06:13 PM 07-11-2014
I'll check for them 'overhead flies' tonight, 'll let you know tomorrow.

P.S. Good work thebland
CINERAMAX's Avatar CINERAMAX 06:32 PM 07-11-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
And you're OK with that? If my sides and rears were separated by only 6-8 degrees, it would sound like a 5.1 set-up instead of 7.1.
Why don't you let the Bland Fire up the system instead of prophesying brimstome and treacle. When that lack of separation happens you can gloat all you want, although if it wont happen what will you do then?

I am standing by firmly that the height channels behind the screen 24" high above mains will be heard separate from the front lcr. I spent considerable time evaluating this and the dolby cinema guys consider it as a good position in certain room designs to certify.

The far field monitors push sound way into the room if aimed overhead they are heard overhead.
sdurani's Avatar sdurani 07:19 PM 07-11-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post
Why don't you let the Bland Fire up the system instead of prophesying brimstome and treacle.
Why don't I "let" him fire up his system? What makes you think I'm stopping him from doing just that? Jeff said he wanted all input. Replying to that post is not prophesying.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post
When that lack of separation happens you can gloat all you want, although if it wont happen what will you do then?
What will I do about what? A system I never have to live with? I have no interest in gloating, one way or the other. You're projecting your thinking onto me. I was just asking Jeff if he is OK with a 6-8 degree elevation for his height speakers.
CINERAMAX's Avatar CINERAMAX 07:37 PM 07-11-2014
Elevation is not everything you have to consider the specific sound projection properties of the speaker.
sdurani's Avatar sdurani 07:40 PM 07-11-2014
Without being elevated it isn't a height speaker. The easiest and most stable way to get sound above you is to place speakers above you.
CINERAMAX's Avatar CINERAMAX 07:44 PM 07-11-2014
You can shoot sound overhead and it works too, Whilst putting a speaker in the ceiling is more of a tricky proposition hence the need of 4 for 2 rows of seating and you wont be getting flat frequency response from those in all seats.
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