Gravity - did you notice the "overhead flies" sequence? Wow - stunning sound engineering and a worthy test of our "ultra" systems! - Page 16 - AVS Forum
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post #451 of 727 Old 07-12-2014, 03:10 AM
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For me two jobs wrapped this week. One a new IMAX build, one a AVX remodel. Since money seems to pop up a lot on here, the below pictures are of a $5.5 million dollar IMAX and a $4.4 million dollar AVX upgrade, the owners cut no corners and both are being labeled as luxury theaters. The IMAX is twin 4K laser Barco fired, the AVX screen is fired by twin laser Christie's(note the clarity on the screen and every light in the house is on!!!!), Quested powered for the IMAX and Dolby Atmos with crown amps firing JBL Pros plus Eon's for the AVX. Magnificent. I really like the AVX as it features a balcony area that is reserved, with ushers, and has a private elevator to get to it as well as a full dine in menu for those paying the extra coin for the balcony. I liked it up there and the USB chargers at every seat was something else, but electronic device usage during the movie was frowned on. lol

Ok back on topic, i was speaking with a Dolby engineer yesterday, on yet another new construction theater coming up, about the difference between whats out there in commercial Atmos use versus whats coming for consumer use. Her exact words were, "nothing, there the same" she also told me to be careful with using overhead speakers, they should be positioned as dead center in the room as possible and spaced roughly 6-8 feet apart, and no closer than 3 feet from a wall. And as a rule of thumb she said a small room should use two overheads, a large room four. She said the same matrix would apply for the overhead speaker location using either 2 or 4 speakers. She also told me Dolby is in the process of testing and certifying Atmos consumer speakers, and the shocker for me, THX was working with Dolby on it's own standards for Atmos. So i stand corrected, apparently Atmos consumer is not a hatchet sells job.
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post #452 of 727 Old 07-12-2014, 03:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by CinemaAndy View Post
Ok back on topic, i was speaking with a Dolby engineer yesterday, on yet another new construction theater coming up, about the difference between whats out there in commercial Atmos use versus whats coming for consumer use. Her exact words were, "nothing, there the same" she also told me to be careful with using overhead speakers, they should be positioned as dead center in the room as possible and spaced roughly 6-8 feet apart, and no closer than 3 feet from a wall. And as a rule of thumb she said a small room should use two overheads, a large room four. She said the same matrix would apply for the overhead speaker location using either 2 or 4 speakers. She also told me Dolby is in the process of testing and certifying Atmos consumer speakers, and the shocker for me, THX was working with Dolby on it's own standards for Atmos. So i stand corrected, apparently Atmos consumer is not a hatchet sells job.

Andy, thanks for sharing your experience and the super cool pictures - always a pleasant surprise to see the various people "in the field" turning up on this forum.

It's very interesting (and important to note) that the above comment matches sdurani's yellow dots in the "ground breaking" :-) Atmos diagram he posted; and my speculation that in object oriented surround, in layman's terms, you would like to populate the speakers where they are currently least "crowded" - spreading the pixels so the Atmos renderer could create more hyper-real imaging at different places in the soundscape.

We shall see with more experience, but at this point for me the ideal Atmos ceiling speaker would be either an on-wall speaker with attractive round protruding form, or an in-wall speaker with tweeter that could be aimed towards hot seat, one example B&W CCM 683 HERE. Wide dispersion is recommended for Atmos heights I believe, but short of that, I would at least want the tweeter to point at the hot seat for the pin point imaging of sound that us audiophiles crave :-). Straight downward firing would be least desirable for me.




Regards, Can
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post #453 of 727 Old 07-12-2014, 07:08 AM
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Based upon the diagram above, we are talking about 17 speakers in a room plus subs.

Since I have no intention of having that many, how would one go about prioritizing which are the most important. If I had to guess, it would be LCR + side surrounds + rear surrounds + 4 on the ceiling (plus subs) for a total of 11 plus subs. This I could do.

Are there any references which would spell out the priority issue (which may be problematic since no homes are currently running Atmos systems). ????

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post #454 of 727 Old 07-12-2014, 07:59 AM
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You can shoot sound overhead and it works too, Whilst putting a speaker in the ceiling is more of a tricky proposition hence the need of 4 for 2 rows of seating and you wont be getting flat frequency response from those in all seats.
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Why don't I "let" him fire up his system? What makes you think I'm stopping him from doing just that? Jeff said he wanted all input. Replying to that post is not prophesying. What will I do about what? A system I never have to live with? I have no interest in gloating, one way or the other. You're projecting your thinking onto me. I was just asking Jeff if he is OK with a 6-8 degree elevation for his height speakers.
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Elevation is not everything you have to consider the specific sound projection properties of the speaker.
Unfortunately the jury is out on this. I think it is going to be trial and error. I have ordered brackets for behind the screen and in front so I can try out both. I think either positioning will do well but in experimenting in my own room, it seems like it will be trial and error. Lucky to have all good input here as things are so early...

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post #455 of 727 Old 07-12-2014, 08:12 AM
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Based upon the diagram above, we are talking about 17 speakers in a room plus subs.
Nope, between 7 speakers to 11 speakers.

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post #456 of 727 Old 07-12-2014, 08:12 AM
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
Based upon the diagram above, we are talking about 17 speakers in a room plus subs.

Since I have no intention of having that many, how would one go about prioritizing which are the most important. If I had to guess, it would be LCR + side surrounds + rear surrounds + 4 on the ceiling (plus subs) for a total of 11 plus subs. This I could do.
I'm with you on this. Do the ceilings have to be able to reach reference level too? Would they get a full bandwidth signal? I realize a crossover could be done to sub but the phase issues etc... would get complicated because the subs would likely be nowhere near the ceiling (well okay, they might be in a KYDG design, lol).

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post #457 of 727 Old 07-12-2014, 08:16 AM
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Unfortunately the jury is out on this. I think it is going to be trial and error. I have ordered brackets for behind the screen and in front so I can try out both. I think either positioning will do well but in experimenting in my own room, it seems like it will be trial and error. Lucky to have all good input here as things are so early...
Its great that you are covering yourself and it may sound more discrete with the front of screen position, but I have heard the effect with your same speakers and discussed it with the 2 guys approving the cp-850, that in fac t angle of speaker is not everything. The sweet spot of the speaker is equally importnant ie far field.

So as you say the jury is still out but, i know the verdict already.
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post #458 of 727 Old 07-12-2014, 08:59 AM
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Its great that you are covering yourself and it may sound more discrete with the front of screen position, but I have heard the effect with your same speakers and discussed it with the 2 guys approving the cp-850, that in fac t angle of speaker is not everything. The sweet spot of the speaker is equally importnant ie far field.

So as you say the jury is still out but, i know the verdict already.

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post #459 of 727 Old 07-12-2014, 11:53 AM
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Nope, between 7 speakers to 11 speakers.
The diagram showed 17. So what is the "nope" for. My question was how many is a more reasonable number.

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post #460 of 727 Old 07-12-2014, 12:21 PM - Thread Starter
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The diagram showed 17. So what is the "nope" for. My question was how many is a more reasonable number.
IMHO and purely speculative:
Classic: 5.1.0 (the last digit being number of height speakers)
Better: 7.1.0 versus 5.1.2; your call whether to add rear speakers (7.1.0) versus height speakers (5.1.2). Rear speakers fill up 160 degrees of the rear hemisphere, height speakers fill the top. My vote for now is 7.1.0 since there is no Atmos Blu-ray yet; later, your call.
Best: 7.1.2 (2 heights) versus 5.1.4 (4 heights). But really, who knows what the most common future Blu-ray mix will be? I am merely pointing out the possible combinations since it is fun to speculate.
Platinum :-): 7.1.4 (4 heights). The 4 heights being those yellow dots :-).

I've turned off the main speakers and listened to the surround channels in my system to see what the demand is like. Even in the most "devastating" of demo with ABSOLUTE cochlear hair cell damaging mayhem in LCR speakers - train wreck sequence of Super 8 - the demand is surprisingly mild for the surrounds, crossovered at 60 hz in my system. Just experiement with some cheap in ceiling speakers and you might be surprised at the result - I use B&W CCM683 at 1200 a pair. It would be ideal to separate the speakers and comply with Dolby's instruction as far as angle of separation between speakers - see diagram above.

I know it's a pain; I cringe to think of my contractor with those monster work shoes on my carpet, and dust everywhere. For these B&W's, hopefully I would just give him the key and go watch a couple (Atmos) movies and the speakers and ceiling wires will be all in by the time I get home.

Regards, Can
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post #461 of 727 Old 07-12-2014, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post
Its great that you are covering yourself and it may sound more discrete with the front of screen position, but I have heard the effect with your same speakers and discussed it with the 2 guys approving the cp-850, that in fac t angle of speaker is not everything. The sweet spot of the speaker is equally importnant ie far field.

So as you say the jury is still out but, i know the verdict already.
To make it more confusing, i was told speaker placement is everything, but not so much the angle of the overhead speakers. Atmos, short for Atmosphere, is more dynamic range than concentrated like a front screen speaker. So now i am confused.
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post #462 of 727 Old 07-12-2014, 02:20 PM
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Andy, thanks for sharing your experience and the super cool pictures - always a pleasant surprise to see the various people "in the field" turning up on this forum.

It's very interesting (and important to note) that the above comment matches sdurani's yellow dots in the "ground breaking" :-) Atmos diagram he posted; and my speculation that in object oriented surround, in layman's terms, you would like to populate the speakers where they are currently least "crowded" - spreading the pixels so the Atmos renderer could create more hyper-real imaging at different places in the soundscape.

We shall see with more experience, but at this point for me the ideal Atmos ceiling speaker would be either an on-wall speaker with attractive round protruding form, or an in-wall speaker with tweeter that could be aimed towards hot seat, one example B&W CCM 683 HERE. Wide dispersion is recommended for Atmos heights I believe, but short of that, I would at least want the tweeter to point at the hot seat for the pin point imaging of sound that us audiophiles crave :-). Straight downward firing would be least desirable for me.



I can't see Atmos working with anything but down firing speakers or maybe the speakers that boucne the sound off the roof. I do believe the drawing you refrenced is Auro-3D, Atmos does not have seperate overhead channels, Auro-3D does have i think two or three overhead speaker channels.

Here is less than super cool pictures.
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post #463 of 727 Old 07-12-2014, 02:26 PM
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I can't see Atmos working with anything but down firing speakers or maybe the speakers that boucne the sound off the roof. I do believe the drawing you refrenced is Auro-3D, Atmos does not have seperate overhead channels, Auro-3D does have i think two or three overhead speaker channels.

Here is less than super cool pictures.
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post #464 of 727 Old 07-12-2014, 09:02 PM - Thread Starter
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I do believe the drawing you refrenced is Auro-3D, Atmos does not have seperate overhead channels,
Andy that *is* an Atmos diagram. Atmos does not have overhead "channel" in the strict "definitive" sense of the word channel, but it does have height speakers that produce the equivalent "channel" using object oriented surround.

Atmos is a simultaneous introduction of 2 separate aspects of surround sound technology, that are somewhat un-related to each other:
1. Object oriented surround (vs. channel based surround)
2. Height information using
3. Additional height speakers
You actually don't need 1 to have 2: you could process height information without object oriented surround technology (this is what Auro does). It just so happens Dolby decides to introduce 1 and 2 together as a package.

I am of course learning about Atmos myself, but my observation is that in certain condition you may not need item 3 to have 2, as evidenced by the overhead flies in my system, it's just that 3 will make the sound hyper-real :-) and location more accurate, and that's what we are after. I believe those ceiling speakers work by the same reason/logic that the center speaker works:
A. "anchors" sound in a specific location (the middle in the case of center speaker) for people sitting to the side, and
B. increases clarity/solidity/realism of center image for everyone, both those sitting to the side, and those sitting in the center.
That's why I am thinking to have those ceiling speakers point at me, but it's just pure speculation based on what I've learned and I am sure this is something that varies from person to person - any expert pls correct as needed.

Regards, Can
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post #465 of 727 Old 07-12-2014, 09:59 PM
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Andy that *is* an Atmos diagram. Atmos does not have overhead "channel" in the strict "definitive" sense of the word channel, but it does have height speakers that produce the equivalent "channel" using object oriented surround.

Atmos is a simultaneous introduction of 2 separate aspects of surround sound technology, that are somewhat un-related to each other:
1. Object oriented surround (vs. channel based surround)
2. Height information using
3. Additional height speakers
You actually don't need 1 to have 2: you could process height information without object oriented surround technology (this is what Auro does). It just so happens Dolby decides to introduce 1 and 2 together as a package.

The way I look at it: you don't even need 3 to have 2 as evidenced by the overhead flies in my system due to elevation of my surround speakers, it's just that 3 will make the sound hyper-real :-) and that's what we are after. I believe those ceiling speakers work by the same reason/logic that the center speaker works:
A. "anchors" sound in a specific location (the middle in the case of center speaker) for people sitting to the side, and
B. increases clarity/solidity/realism of center image for everyone, both those sitting to the side, and those sitting in the center.
Again, pure speculation based on what I've learned - any expert pls correct as needed.
The way Atmos was explained to me, was by those who had not only experience, but creating it as well. What i was told was very tech heavy and most, but not all, went in one ear and out the other ear. From what i understand, is that Dolby Atmos is a matrix that is added during post production sound mixing that "creates" a overhead channel that item specific elements, Helicopter, jet, bullet, etc is induced to this channel to give a true surround sound effect that is higher than the height speakers can duplicate. And large explosions and other "360" sounds are also sent to the over heads as part of the Atmos logic matrix. I was also told the need for multiple over head speakers "softened" the effect and that you could basically have one giant overhead speaker.

Auro was explained to me as having added a second and up to a third layer of speakers producing a 3D sound effect, and uses the standard 5.1 PCM stream. This was also explained to me as having the same speakers at there normal height, then adding a "second" set of speakers higher up directly over the lower speakers, and if the end user so chooses a "third" set of over head downward firing speakers could be added to make what is termed "voice of God" channel. Then the decoder, decodes the 5.1 PCM stream of the Auro 3D mix and fires what speaker gets that sound, based on the number of speakers the system is working with, as this has to be manually entered.

What i do know, is that Atmos is more rendering on the audio processor and not so much sound mixing in post production, Auro is more adjustment at the sound mixing during post development and less rendering by the audio processor. So in effect they are two completely different systems to deliver 3D sound.

During the mastering session, the stems, objects, and metadata are brought together in a Dolby Atmos package that is signed off in the dubbing theater and is carried through to exhibition in the cinema.

The RMU can render the necessary "channel" based mixes..

If you want to read the rest this it is on page 10 of the official Atmos white paper. And if Dolby is calling the overheads "channels" then so will I.

http://www.dolby.com/us/en/technolog...lby-atmos.html Once page has loaded click on Dolby Atmos Next-Generation Audio for Cinema.

http://www.auro-3d.com/wp-content/up...is-Auro-3D.pdf
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The diagram showed 17.
17 possible speaker locations, but you can use as few as 7 (5 around you + 2 above you).
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So what is the "nope" for.
For your comment "we are talking about 17 speakers in a room". The diagram is showing 17 possible speaker locations, but that doesn't mean 17 speakers.

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I'm bummed that a few consumer manufacturers are coming out with "fake Atmos" with phase gimmicks and front firing speakers that are supposed to bounce off the ceiling. This is never gonna work. But I'll reserve judgement until I hear it before saying it sucks. The idea just strikes me as being cheap and crappy -- as opposed to having actual real speakers in the ceiling, which is going to be very impractical for most people.
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post #468 of 727 Old 07-13-2014, 09:46 AM
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I'm bummed that a few consumer manufacturers are coming out with "fake Atmos" with phase gimmicks and front firing speakers that are supposed to bounce off the ceiling. This is never gonna work. But I'll reserve judgement until I hear it before saying it sucks. The idea just strikes me as being cheap and crappy -- as opposed to having actual real speakers in the ceiling, which is going to be very impractical for most people.
Agreed. It has the markings of the Bose 901 approach stamped all over it. And given much of my ceiling is treated anyway, it would not work well in my room.
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post #469 of 727 Old 07-13-2014, 11:02 AM
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I'm bummed that a few consumer manufacturers are coming out with "fake Atmos" with phase gimmicks and front firing speakers that are supposed to bounce off the ceiling. This is never gonna work. But I'll reserve judgement until I hear it before saying it sucks. The idea just strikes me as being cheap and crappy -- as opposed to having actual real speakers in the ceiling, which is going to be very impractical for most people.

Marc's writings on the mimeographed The Videophile magazine are the reason i've devoted 35 years to my vocation.Good to hear we are still on the same wavelength. The one thing I wish was different is that you should have steered this hobby/industry instead of Joe Kane and the ISF. I miss your writings.
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post #470 of 727 Old 07-13-2014, 05:34 PM
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Marc's writings on the mimeographed The Videophile magazine are the reason i've devoted 35 years to my vocation.Good to hear we are still on the same wavelength. The one thing I wish was different is that you should have steered this hobby/industry instead of Joe Kane and the ISF. I miss your writings.
Thanks very much! Good to be remembered. (I worked for about 20 other magazines after The Videophile, including occasional stints at Video Review, Perfect Vision, and Widescreen Review, so I got around quite a bit in the 1980s and 1990s.)

Joe Kane is a very bright guy and was instrumental in establishing most of the professional monitor standards we still use today. I think he does very good work, and I've used his DVD and Blu-ray setup discs for years. I'm cool with any organization like the ISF that at least is promoting normal SMPTE standards.
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post #471 of 727 Old 07-14-2014, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by cannga View Post
Besides the jaw dropping bass (my wife at one point thought we had another earthquake - no kidding, since we just had one here in Southern Cal), did anyone notice the flies buzzing overhead, and all over the place, starting at 1:21:16? Right after Sandra Bullock surfaced from underwater, at 1:21:16, first a fly buzzing *directly* over audience right side, then over audience left rear, then it flies towards the screen where you now see it on screen. In the mean time, space ship debris racing right to left in the sky. Wow what an audio treat; I love the effort and talent of movie sound engineers! This is an Atmos mix and btw, the faces behind the scene: Skip Lievsay, Niv Adiri, Christopher Benstead and Chris Munro. Well, not so much behind the scene anymore since they are Oscar winners, but... in case you wonder.

The "overhead flies" sequence is among most distinct overhead sound maneuvers that I have heard, and of note, much more pleasing in 7:1 setup than in 5:1 setup, as the 7:1 setup makes the effect more distinctly in mid air above us in my system, pulls sound effect rearward, and expands sound-scape, extending it to the 180 degree space behind you. Very spooky and my family all laughed incredulously when I pointed out they had just heard the flies overhead. If you are at 5.1, I would highly recommend to give 7.1 expansion a try. Even using cheap B&W in-ceiling speakers (1200/pair), I have been able to expand my system to 7.1 and dramatically change the sound-scape.

I also have never had my chair vibrate so much in a movie LOL. In fact the whole floor was vibrating. From crystal clear conversation, to jaw dropping bass, to spectacular sound effects, yes, all the audiophile engineers have abandoned music for the theaters!


This movie is another example of why whether your system is 5.1, or 7.1.4 Atmos, IMHO to play with the "big boys," the front 3 speakers - left, center, right - should be as large, full range, and good sounding as one's budget and space allows. Yes, the enveloping effect is nice, yes the flies sound effect is fun to listen to, but they are "surround" sound in support of the "primary" sound, the one that comes out of the front 3. Whether it is Gravity, or Super 8, or Smaug, the front 3 are the ones that need the devastating power that overwhelms your audience :-), it is where the screen and primary action are. Go for broke with both speaker size and amplification for the front 3, if possible: this means big speakers that could run full range (no crossover'ed) and big amp that could supply the current.

Looking back, this thread should be renamed THE ULTIMATE OFF-TOPIC THREAD for all the off topic stuffs here. Feel free to add; anything goes. However, no cursing, be nice, keep the noise down (my system is better than yours, etc.), and don't advertise things you sell, or as the thread starter I might invoke my right to be the dictator :-) and will politely ask you to leave and create your own thread.
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Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
I'll check for them 'overhead flies' tonight, 'll let you know tomorrow.

P.S. Good work thebland
Last night I revisited 'Gravity' in 3D @ home in my right now 7.2-channel surround sound system (very modest).

And everything you said above I agree with. And honestly I believe your experience is @ a higher level than mine; no doubt as your setup is top-notch.

I listened at reference master volume level! WoW, it is truly a phantasmagoria of sound assaults from all directions and deep in the chest!

* The buzzing fly starting @ exactly 1:21:14 is on the rear right surround, overhead, then eventually made it to the front left main.
But this ain't nothing compared to the overhead sound effects from 'Master and Commander - The Far Side of the World'. ...On Blu-ray of course.

- You have a great home theater surround sound system, and it is very interesting to read your journey and experience from which I can still relate even having a modest one myself.
Thank you for the sharing; I truly appreciate reading it.

Cheers,
R §

Last edited by NorthSky; 07-14-2014 at 07:16 PM. Reason: small typo
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post #472 of 727 Old 07-14-2014, 05:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
* The buzzing fly starting @ exactly 1:21:14 is on the rear right surround, overhead, then eventually made it to the front left main.
But this ain't nothing compared to the overhead sound effects from 'Master and Commander - The Far Side of the World'. ...On Blu-ray of course.
Cheers,
R §

Hey NorthSky, thanks for the nice comment, and recommendation above. I will most definitely check out Master & Commander. I had seen it before but that was before I started paying attention and ranking movie sound :-). I do remember the deep bass, but not the overhead sound effect, but that was before I went to 7.1 with elevated side surrounds.

Sorry I have not responded to your previous posts; the pic in your avatar scared me. Kidding.

Regards, Can
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Last edited by cannga; 07-14-2014 at 05:21 PM.
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post #473 of 727 Old 07-14-2014, 05:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
I'll check for them 'overhead flies' tonight, 'll let you know tomorrow.

P.S. Good work thebland
Thanks! Exciting times.

I still have not seen Gravity. It will likely be my first film when the theater is completed and calibrated.

Tomorrow my equipment room is expected to be finished and with that I expect to have an impossibly low noise floor. My only concern is that the Guilford fabric I use is no longer in production, so the area between my two rear columns (where the racks are) will be Guilford FR 701 black. I can't wait to measure but I expect my dynamic range should increase greatly - no amplifiers in the room, no projector sound leakage, no mini split AC buzz. I am very excited about this as this part was an inexpensive upgrade. With the entry to the room comprised of two solid core, sealed doors, I think will make for a great place to meditate as well.

I have my new speaker mounts on their way from Quested and will start to unpack my amplifiers and 12 speakers this weekend.

Have a baffle wall to finish, 5 subs to place... still a ways away as though my theater has been down for 5 months.

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Originally Posted by Marc Wielage View Post
Thanks very much! Good to be remembered. (I worked for about 20 other magazines after The Videophile, including occasional stints at Video Review, Perfect Vision, and Widescreen Review, so I got around quite a bit in the 1980s and 1990s.)

Marc, nice to see you posting here (and Peter thanks for calling him out :-)). Perfect Vision, and of course its twin, was among my most favorite mag.

Regarding the speaker, if you are talking about Andrew Jones's Pioneer speakers - go easy on him. The ceiling pointing design is per Atmos recommendation and is considered only for situations that one could not have ceiling speakers - it's an acknowledged second choice compromise. Jones is an extremely knowledgeable and talented speaker designer, and NO DOUBT with golden ears to match. I rank his top speaker, the TAD Reference, to be the equal of the very best: Wilson, Magico, etc. Tremendous soundstage, resolution, and high end smoothness, fantastic fast sounding deep bass.

So much brouhaha (speaking of Absolute Sound and Perfect Vision :-)) on the Pioneer speakers and the ceiling compromise takes attention away from the core of the excitement: (beyond the technical aspect of interesting object oriented surround that is somewhat irrelevant to listener) to me Atmos surround is simply an upward extension of surround mix and speakers. In my amateurish opinion, similar principle to 7.1 extending 5.1 rearward, or center channel extending stereo mid-ward :-). I expect clarity and realism of sound effects as a result. When will Atmos come, whether it will be successful, how many of us will set up ceiling speakers, who knows, but on principle it is clearly a step forward - extra sound sources where there have been none, in that height hemisphere.

Regards, Can
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I, for one, am not expecting Atmos to be successful. THey make up about 10%-15% of my collection. When DTS comes, then it will be over for Atmos.

My Home Theater of the Month- Le Petit Trianon

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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Originally Posted by thebland View Post
I, for one, am not expecting Atmos to be successful. THey make up about 10%-15% of my collection. When DTS comes, then it will be over for Atmos.

Sure - anything is possible; but Atmos vs. Auro vs. DTS is not what I really care about. The main idea is that *we*, as fans of good movie sound, should all hope that some form of surround sound with height information to be widely available in future Blu-ray's, for those who want to experiment.

In other words, the big picture is *we* should all hope that Atmos does well in commercial theaters, and gains the initial traction in Blu-rays at home. Any possible subsequent fight between Dolby or DTS, I really don't care too much.

Regards, Can
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Originally Posted by cannga View Post
Sure - anything is possible; but Atmos vs. Auro vs. DTS is not what I really care about. The main idea is that *we*, as fans of good movie sound, should all hope that some form of surround sound with height information will be widely available in future Blu-ray's for those who want to experiment.

In other words, the big picture is *we* should all hope that Atmos does well commercially and gains the initial traction. Any possible subsequent fight between Dolby or DTS, I really don't care too much.
The current industry model is better sound = more speakers.

DTS is 'King' in the home market. I just don't see that changing with Atmos. If you thought 7.1 was way out there, 9.1 or 11.1is wayyy out there. DTS has a hold on the Blu Ray market and I can't see Atmos denting it as adoption of this new format that perhaps 8 people will actually employ in tis first year.

DTS is playing a waiting game. I am sure they will come in to the game with ready to dominate.

My Home Theater of the Month- Le Petit Trianon

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cannga View Post
So much brouhaha (speaking of Absolute Sound and Perfect Vision :-)) on the Pioneer speakers and the ceiling compromise takes attention away from the core of the excitement: (beyond the technical aspect of interesting object oriented surround that is somewhat irrelevant to listener) to me Atmos surround is simply an upward extension of surround mix and speakers.
Point taken, but I think this is just another variation of the "sound bar surround-in-a-box" hype where it just doesn't work very well. I'm always on the side of the filmmaker, and if you talk to any pro sound mixer, they'll just shake their heads when you show them gimmicks like top-firing ceiling-bounce speakers.

I have no problem just living with 7.1 and not worrying about Atmos or Aero. I think both are fantastic for theaters, but just very impractical for 99.9% of most people. And I'm reluctant to do a half-ass setup with weird phasey speakers that aren't exactly the real thing.
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post #479 of 727 Old 07-14-2014, 09:18 PM
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Originally Posted by CinemaAndy View Post
"be careful with using overhead speakers, they should be positioned as dead center in the room as possible and spaced roughly 6-8 feet apart, and no closer than 3 feet from a wall. And as a rule of thumb she said a small room should use two overheads, a large room four.
Well, how does that square for a cinema where the sweet spot is 2/3 of the way back? The overhead arrays extend further forward than rearward. See the figures. There's a 20 deg difference in the vertical angle from one end of the height array to the other for the "best seat in the house."

And come on, a small room should use 2 overheads? That's the same as saying small rooms should use 5.1 instead of 7.1.
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post #480 of 727 Old 07-14-2014, 09:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
And come on, a small room should use 2 overheads? That's the same as saying small rooms should use 5.1 instead of 7.1.
You don't trust advice that came directly from a Dolby engineer whose exact words to describe the difference between commercial vs consumer Atmos were "nothing, there the same"?

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