Gravity - did you notice the "overhead flies" sequence? Wow - stunning sound engineering and a worthy test of our "ultra" systems! - Page 20 - AVS Forum
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post #571 of 687 Old 08-15-2014, 10:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post
Each subwoofer has 2, 15" drivers powered with 1000W per woofer. There is one stack of 2 cabinets (4x15" drivers) in the rear right corner, and 4 cabinets (8x15" drivers) under/behind the baffle wall for a total of 12 drivers and 12,000W continuous power.
But you do realize that to get 12,000 watts you will need at least 15,000 watts of AC power (that's 125amps at 120 volts) and that's assuming your amps are class D. With conventional 50% efficient class B amps, that goes to 24,000 watts or 200 amps at 120volts.

Yes, there is some additional headroom stored in the amps power supply but that is only for a few hundred milliseconds or so.

But I still agree with your product design and selection. I run 700wrms (great old Phase Linear 700 amp) across two 12in subs and last night noticed a bit of woofer compression. So I need to upgrade myself.

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post #572 of 687 Old 08-15-2014, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Glimmie View Post
But you do realize that to get 12,000 watts you will need at least 15,000 watts of AC power (that's 125amps at 120 volts) and that's assuming your amps are class D.
12 kW is only to eliminate the possibility of clipping on peaks and that the average power will a small fraction of that.

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post #573 of 687 Old 08-15-2014, 02:31 PM
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12 kW is only to eliminate the possibility of clipping on peaks and that the average power will a small fraction of that.
Yeah, I get that but even with peaks, you will still be a long ways from 12kw.

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post #574 of 687 Old 08-15-2014, 05:07 PM
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Yeah, I get that but even with peaks, you will still be a long ways from 12kw.
You're rarely going to get an argument from me regarding overkill. But the reality is that circuit breakers are far more capable of dramatic increases, over longer periods, in amperage then they're given credit. The amperage requirements are not dictated by the peak capacity of the amps, but the peak demand of the signal. And the reality of an overkill system , like the one discussed here, is that it will likely never demand the full capacity of the amps, even for peaks, when dealing with movie soundtracks.

With music, of course, all bets are off.

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post #575 of 687 Old 08-15-2014, 05:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Glimmie View Post
But you do realize that to get 12,000 watts you will need at least 15,000 watts of AC power (that's 125amps at 120 volts) and that's assuming your amps are class D. With conventional 50% efficient class B amps, that goes to 24,000 watts or 200 amps at 120volts.

Yes, there is some additional headroom stored in the amps power supply but that is only for a few hundred milliseconds or so.

But I still agree with your product design and selection. I run 700wrms (great old Phase Linear 700 amp) across two 12in subs and last night noticed a bit of woofer compression. So I need to upgrade myself.
Circuit breakers can easily pass short bursts of 3-10x their rating, and we care about the power required to drive subwoofers here, not how much is pulled from the wall. With the SpeakerPower amplifiers we use the high efficiency means that 12,000W would draw closer to 13kW, not 15kW. This really isn't out of line for real use with 2 20A circuits. With the complex impedance of a real subwoofer and the wide bandwidth of most anything you will listen to, we need the high Voltage swing just as much as the total power delivery, all of which helps push points of clipping ever higher, and that's the real goal. It's plenty easy to add more circuit capacity to allow the amps to deliver the output for longer duration, but due to the sub's design and the number we are using, I expect we'd still find the amplifier clip points well before the breakers pop using any real playback material.

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post #576 of 687 Old 08-15-2014, 06:12 PM
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Originally Posted by thebland View Post
Yep, one amp powers both... as designed for such. According to Mark, the more drivers, the more efficient to power.

Mark was using my old DSP-30 to apply delays, etc - but no EQ. I have only powered on the Datasat to be sure it was not dead out of the box. I've still got a lot to do before Carl and Mark arrive for final calibration on Wednesday.

In fact, I am ending my week long vacation up in Northern Michigan (Charlevoix) a day early so as to get back, install bass traps, clean up equipment room, re-install screen, reassemble chairs, etc and complete this, now, 8 month process. As much as I love being at our place up north and beautiful Lake Michigan, I have to get home!
I haven't been here for a bit - when did you decide on the Datasat over the Trinnov?????

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post #577 of 687 Old 08-15-2014, 07:32 PM
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Originally Posted by thebland View Post
Yep, one amp powers both... as designed for such. According to Mark, the more drivers, the more efficient to power.

Mark was using my old DSP-30 to apply delays, etc - but no EQ. I have only powered on the Datasat to be sure it was not dead out of the box. I've still got a lot to do before Carl and Mark arrive for final calibration on Wednesday.

In fact, I am ending my week long vacation up in Northern Michigan (Charlevoix) a day early so as to get back, install bass traps, clean up equipment room, re-install screen, reassemble chairs, etc and complete this, now, 8 month process. As much as I love being at our place up north and beautiful Lake Michigan, I have to get home!
Yeah. I'm just old school, in my mind a big speaker needs it's own amp supplying it, probably never change my mind, despite the fact that some of the newer 2, 3-ways speakers sound very good on a single amp.

My Aunt and Uncle owned a lake house on Lake Michigan. I know that feeling, it is pretty up there this time of year.

And the payoff is never certain: Some observers contend that a generation has already been trained to be content with the small screen.
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post #578 of 687 Old 08-15-2014, 08:42 PM
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Gravity - did you notice the "overhead flies" sequence? Wow - stunning sound ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by CinemaAndy View Post

My Aunt and Uncle owned a lake house on Lake Michigan. I know that feeling, it is pretty up there this time of year.
I live near Detroit. Very busy... But our place up north, just a few hours away on Lake Michigan, is where the true beauty of Michigan lies.

Here's a couple photos at sunset and golden light.



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post #579 of 687 Old 08-16-2014, 12:47 AM
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I live near Detroit. Very busy... But our place up north, just a few hours away on Lake Michigan, is where the true beauty of Michigan lies.

Here's a couple photos at sunset and golden light.

Lucky you! My Uncle was a executive at Chrysler. I remember going to downtown Detroit with him, to his office in Highland Park, later they opened a new campus and headquarters in Auburn Hills, under Lee Iacocca. I also remember being 12 and my Uncle taking me to the Jefferson Avenue plant for the first time. All the people and parts and manufacturing stuff going on. It took my Uncle a long time to talk me out of getting a job in the auto industry. And i'm glad he did! Well i'm from Galveston, TX so here a pic of what i see, unless i'm working. You Can have the winters there, but i liked it there in the summer time, compared to the south Texas heat.

About the third picture, no i don't take the trash out. The rolls of 14/2 speaker wire are mine. Tilman Fertitta, a local Galveston boy, who is more famous for his Landry's restaurant chain, and Vegas casinos, talked me into doing a outside venue on his newly reconstructed Pleasure Pier. Friday and Saturday nights he had live local bands performing at the back of the pier. he was some place and saw a show with the performers being projected in real time on a screen behind him. Problem was, that was in a building, not on a pier over the Gulf of Mexico, on one of the worse days as the season was changing. To the left of the picture was a staircase. I climbed it at least 50 times that night clearing dew and ocean muck off the port glass. It would get so bad the image would look blurry. The projector booth A/C messed up and was either on or off. So that was causing the port glass to fog over, on top of the salt and sand and moisture blowing in from the Gulf. After that night, th4e port glass was highly polished and a few mm's thinner. Point of the story is, if someone tries to talk you into something like this, don't be stupid like me, run away as fast as you can.
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post #580 of 687 Old 08-16-2014, 10:08 AM - Thread Starter
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For those of us who don't venture out of the Ultra forum: some interesting new info regarding home theater Atmos. Following is a summary of the channels of home theater Atmos, based on information posted by Sanjay/sdurani, on another thread.

1. Commercial cinema Atmos: 7.1 bed channels or 9.1 bed channels + objects. With 9.1, there is height info in 2 of the 9.1 bed channels.
2. Home theater Atmos on Blu-ray: 7.1 bed channels or 9.1 bed channels (matching the cinema mix) + objects. Same as above: with 9.1, there is height info in 2 of the 9.1 bed channels. The 4th substream carries both channel and object info.

As commercial theaters produce height bed channels in the 2 overhead arrays, this seems to *imply* that in a home Atmos system of 7.1.4 speakers (not channel), the 4 ceiling speakers would best be the 4 yellow dots in the diagram sdurani posted a while ago, if one is to duplicate the Atmos intended setup/mix as close as possible. If you have more than 4, then the other positions, top middle and so on, follow.


What's so interesting about this latest home theater Atmos info is that since the height speakers carry channel beds, I would think their exact positions have just become more relevant/important! In the sense that now you would probably want to be as close as possible to the commercial theater's overhead array speakers' position, where the film's height mix is intended for.

Had height info been object only, then the Atmos renderer would place sound per coordinates (like the soldier calling in coordinates for target practice) and learned speaker positons, speaker positions still important, but not as much. Am I on the right track?

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post #581 of 687 Old 08-16-2014, 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post
Circuit breakers can easily pass short bursts of 3-10x their rating, and we care about the power required to drive subwoofers here, not how much is pulled from the wall. With the SpeakerPower amplifiers we use the high efficiency means that 12,000W would draw closer to 13kW, not 15kW. This really isn't out of line for real use with 2 20A circuits. With the complex impedance of a real subwoofer and the wide bandwidth of most anything you will listen to, we need the high Voltage swing just as much as the total power delivery, all of which helps push points of clipping ever higher, and that's the real goal. It's plenty easy to add more circuit capacity to allow the amps to deliver the output for longer duration, but due to the sub's design and the number we are using, I expect we'd still find the amplifier clip points well before the breakers pop using any real playback material.
I'm an EE and hobby power amp builder. What you say is quite correct. I guess my post was a bit redundant on this forum as people here usually understand this but I just wanted to point this out before some newbie runs off and thinks they can run 12kw of amp output off a 20a circuit - continuously.
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post #582 of 687 Old 08-16-2014, 06:51 PM
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I think I must be one of the few on this forum that could give a hoot less about Atmos. I've never encountered a bigger hyped technology with so much buzz, yet I live in a fairly dense part of the country in NJ and there is not a single theater within 1.5 hours of me that has bothered to install this apparently mind blowing audio technology. And I'm supposed to get all excited about it for my home? Seems like the cart is before the horse on this one.

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post #583 of 687 Old 08-16-2014, 07:18 PM
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Well you have my word that at the G premiere in LA Atmos development room (even had a scantly row of 3 Xperimental VOGs -down center ceiling), Ive heard sounds totally in synch with Image parallax go through my gut, while several objects circled my persona (in random orbits), invading my space, and one parked itself behind one ear: the "houston houston".


Have not heard it that good since, thus am very skeptical about the low "res/speaker count" ceiling- ricochet lite version.You need 24-32 speakers to be able to soundscape so adeptly nimble... why leave spatial resolution on the table?

For me the game is afoot to recreate this Grail and master it's pinpoint space invasion for home..

And please do not let a fascination with 3d videography nor my "permanently irrevocable" disdain for horn transient fatigue offensiveness keep you from achieving a fulfilled multichannel life.


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post #584 of 687 Old 08-17-2014, 04:28 AM
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Peter, again you bring up the good questions. But, i am torn between Atmos and Auro-3D. I like the fact that Atmos creates sound as objects and can put the object to any speaker driver. I also like Auro-3D for the added "voice of God" true overhead sound effect. But, i am finding out really fast, duplicating this in a ht or pt is very difficult to get the true theatrical feel. The fact that Dolby engineers told me there is not much difference between theatrical and CE Atmos, and speaking with Nancy at Onkyo, who informed me that there Atmos AVR's use typical "lettering" of speakers channels, because people understand Left channel, right channel, binding post's even though Atmos has changed the game and those really mean nothing in an object based sound field. I know Barco's Auro 3-D is doing there own CE AVR, but to me it's functionality seems very limited in the ht or pt areas. So for my pt, i am yet again, looking at the reliability, easy of use(wife) and proven expensive 30K Atmos and 33K Auro theatrical processor unit. Now getting all those blu-rays with there DTS and Dolby to sound and act right, is the biggest hang up, and with some experiments, i have not had any luck. Everytime i try to get a disk, no matter the delivery means, or how it is delivered to the processor, the processors immediately drop to normal 7.1/5.1 output, very damned frustrating. I know those "overhead" files exist in DTS-MAHD and Dolby blu-ray, as they are the exact audio copy from DCP, i did think this was not the truth, but i was proven wrong, and the audio file is the exact on blu-ray as DCP for future selling points for CE's, like Atmos/Auro-3D at home. Yet, these same files, for some reason, will not allow "overhead" playback on cinema processors. Fustrating.

And the payoff is never certain: Some observers contend that a generation has already been trained to be content with the small screen.
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post #585 of 687 Old 08-17-2014, 05:06 AM
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Originally Posted by CinemaAndy View Post
Lucky you! My Uncle was a executive at Chrysler. I remember going to downtown Detroit with him, to his office in Highland Park, later they opened a new campus and headquarters in Auburn Hills, under Lee Iacocca. I also remember being 12 and my Uncle taking me to the Jefferson Avenue plant for the first time. All the people and parts and manufacturing stuff going on. It took my Uncle a long time to talk me out of getting a job in the auto industry. And i'm glad he did! Well i'm from Galveston, TX so here a pic of what i see, unless i'm working. You Can have the winters there, but i liked it there in the summer time, compared to the south Texas heat.

About the third picture, no i don't take the trash out. The rolls of 14/2 speaker wire are mine. Tilman Fertitta, a local Galveston boy, who is more famous for his Landry's restaurant chain, and Vegas casinos, talked me into doing a outside venue on his newly reconstructed Pleasure Pier. Friday and Saturday nights he had live local bands performing at the back of the pier. he was some place and saw a show with the performers being projected in real time on a screen behind him. Problem was, that was in a building, not on a pier over the Gulf of Mexico, on one of the worse days as the season was changing. To the left of the picture was a staircase. I climbed it at least 50 times that night clearing dew and ocean muck off the port glass. It would get so bad the image would look blurry. The projector booth A/C messed up and was either on or off. So that was causing the port glass to fog over, on top of the salt and sand and moisture blowing in from the Gulf. After that night, th4e port glass was highly polished and a few mm's thinner. Point of the story is, if someone tries to talk you into something like this, don't be stupid like me, run away as fast as you can.
Ha great story!!And you here are back in the home theater forum!! I guess despite that experience, you are here doing it on your own terms.

I started in HT when I had a job one summer at Sears (in the electronics / home audio department). When I started they had Top Gun on Laser Disc and Dolby Surround on a Pioneer receiver... I was sold and haven't been able to kick the habit since.

Yeah, northern Michigan is really a gorgeous place... very cold winters but I hope, when I retire, to spend Summers and Falls up there. Great story!


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post #586 of 687 Old 08-17-2014, 05:08 AM
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I haven't been here for a bit - when did you decide on the Datasat over the Trinnov?????
Hi. The simple answer is timing. My theater has been down for almost 8 months and though Curt is pretty sure Altitudes will be in the public's hands in September or October, you never know (potential delays) and I simply couldn't wait.


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Hi. The simple answer is timing. My theater has been down for almost 8 months and though Curt is pretty sure Altitudes will be in the public's hands in September or October, you never know (potential delays) and I simply couldn't wait.
This way you can get the best of both worlds. You can add a trinnov mc onto the Datasat and get a super amazing system.
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post #588 of 687 Old 08-17-2014, 01:12 PM
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This way you can get the best of both worlds. You can add a trinnov mc onto the Datasat and get a super amazing system.
I think the Datasat and Trinnov are very similar apart from 3d remapping. The other option (if 3d remapping was important) would be to take the depreciation hit from the Datasat when the Altitude comes and then buy it.

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post #589 of 687 Old 08-17-2014, 01:13 PM
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Hi. The simple answer is timing. My theater has been down for almost 8 months and though Curt is pretty sure Altitudes will be in the public's hands in September or October, you never know (potential delays) and I simply couldn't wait.
Makes sense - will be kickass either way. Can't wait to hear more about your experience with the Questeds.

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post #590 of 687 Old 08-17-2014, 06:17 PM
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Maybe remapping can be done to virtually adapt an auro speaker array to atmos, or viceversa.


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post #591 of 687 Old 08-19-2014, 09:39 AM - Thread Starter
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We are in the fourth season of Game of Thrones on HBO streaming, with good old Dolby Digital streaming, and boy what a difference movie sound makes to the overall experience. Even the non-audio geek members of my family (read: everyone else but me :-)) notice the lack of clarity and explosiveness of streaming audio. Dolby Digital is expected to be inferior to high resolution audio such as Dolby TrueHD or DTS MA, but what surprised me is how big this quality gap is. It sounds so muddy. This gap is likely made more obvious because of the inherent wide dynamics of Game of Thrones; difference would not be so obvious with Breaking Bad for example.

It's hard to believe when Dolby Digital first came out, it was such a revelation for movie sound. Now... it's truly a sad state of affair and took so much away from the movie experience.

Regarding the Blu-ray version of Game of Thrones: cannot recommend it highly enough. Beautiful cinematography, actually, gorgeous is more like it :-), and spectacular audio quality (with great clarity and smoothness and extremely wide dynamics), best ever for a television series. It seems audio quality of a great TV series such as this one is challenging blockbuster movies of just a few years ago!

From non-stop, one heart pounding moment to the next of the great story line, to great acting, beautiful sceneries/visuals/audio, this is must see TV - multiple Oscar winners just like Gravity, and likely to dominate in the next few years - if you are looking for the best there is. Again pls just keep in mind this is not exactly Thanksgiving family-dinner type material.

Regards, Can
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post #592 of 687 Old 08-21-2014, 08:44 AM
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Field Report from Jeff's calibrations yesterday. Congrats Jeff!

"Success!

I really like AURO-3D. We started working right after lunch and didn't wrap until late, late night early morning. However it was very much worth the effort. We had 6 active subwoofers in that room arranged as 2 x mono with BM. I convinced Mark Seaton to turn off the DSP correction that he usually applies to his subs and he gracefully complied. Dirac did a great job. We measured the results using a TEF measurement system that Mark had brought. We were pleased to discover that the subs were flat to 5Hz in front and flat to 10Hz in back at reference levels. You just don't get better than that!

Those Quested loudspeakers melded well with Mark's subwoofers. The dynamics and detail of the end product was truly outstanding. We listened to several samples from live concert recordings to U571 and War of the Worlds. It was all good. Did I mention that I really like AURO?? Ha, ha ...

Best Regards,
Carl Huff"
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post #593 of 687 Old 08-21-2014, 10:06 AM
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Now getting all those blu-rays with there DTS and Dolby to sound and act right, is the biggest hang up, and with some experiments, i have not had any luck. Everytime i try to get a disk, no matter the delivery means, or how it is delivered to the processor, the processors immediately drop to normal 7.1/5.1 output, very damned frustrating.
That's because there are no Blu-rays with height information yet, and when they do emerge, they will have a completely different file than the one that appears on a DCP.

Roger

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post #594 of 687 Old 08-21-2014, 10:14 AM
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Field Report from Jeff's calibrations yesterday. Congrats Jeff!

"Success!

I really like AURO-3D. We started working right after lunch and didn't wrap until late, late night early morning. However it was very much worth the effort. We had 6 active subwoofers in that room arranged as 2 x mono with BM. I convinced Mark Seaton to turn off the DSP correction that he usually applies to his subs and he gracefully complied. Dirac did a great job. We measured the results using a TEF measurement system that Mark had brought. We were pleased to discover that the subs were flat to 5Hz in front and flat to 10Hz in back at reference levels. You just don't get better than that!

Those Quested loudspeakers melded well with Mark's subwoofers. The dynamics and detail of the end product was truly outstanding. We listened to several samples from live concert recordings to U571 and War of the Worlds. It was all good. Did I mention that I really like AURO?? Ha, ha ...

Best Regards,
Carl Huff"
Peter,
Thanks for your advice and recommendation on the Questeds. Super loud, but clear and non fatiguing. Incredible impact. You were absolutely right on all accounts!!

DIRAC really did a super nice job. A slow process as it requires a lot of computing power I learned. I think Carl did 6 or 9 sweeps of all 13 channels.


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post #595 of 687 Old 08-21-2014, 09:21 PM
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That's because there are no Blu-rays with height information yet, and when they do emerge, they will have a completely different file than the one that appears on a DCP.
I finally gave up on it officially yesterday. I'm going to stop listening to those BDA people. Apparently they don't know what files are on there. I'm still confused from seeing AC3 files on the BD and the DCP for Cap America. I'll get it sorted one day.

And the payoff is never certain: Some observers contend that a generation has already been trained to be content with the small screen.
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post #596 of 687 Old 08-23-2014, 09:18 AM - Thread Starter
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From Los Angeles Audio Society's monthly meeting: Introducing a potential candidate for Atmos ceiling speaker: the $200,000 MBL X-treme. I am kidding of course, Atmos is hot, hot, hot, and I just have to drag it in :-), but if one is looking for a wide dispersion ceiling speaker? How about the 360 degree MBL?

I mentioned previously how shocked I was at the sheer dollar value of equipments in this unassuming store in Torrance that LAAS held its last meeting, and above one is one reason - imagine speakers that out-cost a Porsche Turbo by $50,000, encroaching on Ferrari territory. What about the sound? As typical of MBL systems: unspeakably-open soundstage WITHOUT clear boundary, 3D reach out and touch imaging, and a disappearing act like you have never experienced before in your life. The system has 2 towers on each side; in picture below you could see the 360 degree MBL driver, and to the right faint outline of the positively huge subwoofer tower. Yes they are huge and yes, they totally disappear when you are in the hot seat.

I've owned (and still have) a few panel speakers, including Apogee Diva - full system with subwoofer, quad amped IIRC, Martin Logan, Magnaplanar - that is playing in the background as I type this, but I have to tell you that with respect to an open and airy soundstage, the MBL's out-airy them all. (Well maybe except for my beloved Apogee Diva.) It is an experience that any seeker of all-out audiophile systems should listen to once in his life.

The negatives? Any audio reviewer worth his salt should always be able to find a negative, right? Nothing is perfect in life, let alone a speaker. The bass of MBL systems to my ears tends to be ponderous and slow. Coupled with the very fast, airy, "ribbon type" mid and high drivers (not exactly ribbon, but similar looking metallic petals) of the MBL, and now one has to deal with an integration problem. Speakers that combine conventional cone drivers for low frequency with fast panel type higher frequency drivers nearly always have an integration problem, to my ears anyway, and the MBL doesn't escape this truism :-). Also I don't want to be critical but the Torrance demo sounds overly dark and slow, probably the worst demo of MBL I have heard; I believe had I stayed for longer and had a more personal demo with some higher quality music, the result would have been better.



Regards, Can
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post #597 of 687 Old 08-23-2014, 11:15 AM
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Also I don't want to be critical but the Torrance demo sounds overly dark and slow, probably the worst demo of MBL I have heard; I believe had I stayed for longer and had a more personal demo with some higher quality music, the result would have been better.
Weren't any better as set up at the May THE Show, where the bass was anything but tight. Probably not surprising given the collocation of the drivers.

Conversely, several show demos of the 101E I've heard were sublime in every respect. If I had $80K to spend and a slightly bigger room, I'd buy these in a hearbeat.
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post #598 of 687 Old 08-24-2014, 09:44 AM
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a couple of years ago i attempted to design a 7.1 with 3 of these lcr behind the screen, and four of the r2d2 sized ones inverted hanging from ceiling for the surround sides and rears. They said they could anodize the units black, for reflectivity but it was going to be an issue, and i blew the 1.5 theater budget very quickly, so no happen.But airy they are....

I had as my first dolby fosgate system in 1990 2 monoliths with 2 sequels, that was a remarkably transparent system at the time.

But i had 3" white sonex killing some of the backwave which aided in laserdisc imaging.


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post #599 of 687 Old 08-25-2014, 05:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Alerted by sdurani's posting of the thing below. I would be lying if I don't admit that it looks positively "sexy"; want to reach out and touch those knobs. :-)

For me, I am certain that it would be the kiss of death for any high end processor not to be upgradeable to Atmos. Just a little shocked that Trinnov gets it out so soon after the Japanese mass market big guns.
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Regards, Can
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post #600 of 687 Old 08-25-2014, 06:19 PM
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For me, I am certain that it would be the kiss of death for any high end processor not to be upgradeable to Atmos. Just a little shocked that Trinnov gets it out so soon after the Japanese mass market big guns.
So you're pronouncing the Theta CB dead?
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