Gravity - did you notice the "overhead flies" sequence? Wow - stunning sound engineering and a worthy test of our "ultra" systems! - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 727 Old 05-03-2014, 03:59 PM
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Originally Posted by thebland View Post

G

In meeting with my builder last week, I sit back approx 17 from screen, the tweeter will be just above ear level. Now my screen is 6 ft high and it appears that the distance between height speaker and LCR tweeters, if heights are placed behind the screen may be as little as 2.5 ft. Now sitting so far back relatively, that is an angle to my head of close to 80 degrees. I have read that height speakers should be at more of an angle of around 35-45 degrees.

It will work great at 2.5 the speakers do not image in its location but instead launches far-field over your head, this with a max 22" h in Front 23.5"h in back (down-angled-maybe shorter) base.Just aim over heads.



Even Aegir has same case. Dolby gave this (actually Skoll retrofit-nearly identical room) greenlight for atmos at Shoeast.
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post #92 of 727 Old 05-03-2014, 04:16 PM
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with exception of the 300,000 Ocean way with 300,000 in amps with cello palletes even the big $$$ JBL's Ev 2 sound harsh and unatural, I have not been able to remove the throat effects from any of my PRO installs, even with datasat.



We measured all seats with curt at our nearly square ALBORIX room and what you purport did not happen there on the lt-20's either in 13.1(10?) or 7.1(4).

Now when we fired up the Lt-10s in 3d remap extracted height on movies mixed in atmos though in 7.1 (Ironman 3) and even Oz mixed in Auro it sounds like a freight train going over your head. Really gives goosebumps.
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post #93 of 727 Old 05-03-2014, 04:25 PM
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Norm had custom tweaked Toa based loudspeakers in his Cinema that were supposed to be the best sounding horns in Germany for lcr on a large smx screen and he tried out several questeds ended up replacing his audiphile customized TOAs with three LT-10s behind screen.
Not only did I get a couple of thank you notes, he commented these speakers do something very special and unique.



Give an example of a compression horn that is transparent at high spl's besides the ocean way studio's (the only ones in my book) .....when your front end is $uper-e$oteric then yes horns can sound very nice



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post #94 of 727 Old 05-03-2014, 04:30 PM
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Originally Posted by FOH View Post

Great discussion. The Quested line is stellar. In my experience, the claim of all CDs (compression drivers) as being fatiging isn't consistent with what I've heard. Depending on the implementation and design execution, the platform can cover all bases. But yes, there are poor examples as well.

The Adam offerings are well executed products, without question. However, unless a line source approach is pursued ala Steinway Lyngdorf, etc., beaming is a real issue and likely the most significant integration obstacle.

The same scenario presents itself with most any AMT high frequency equipped loudspeaker. In single LP environments (HiFi, Studio monitoring, etc), the tightly limited coverage may even be an advantage. However in many HT environments, workarounds toward coverage uniformity are often needed.

.

You know, in comparing the Questeds to two other compression driver speakers I have on site , the Questeds, to me and a buddy, were easier to listen to and cleaner up top. Curt set up the Trinnov so all were properly EQ'd, time aligned, etc and I could really compare via A/B/C on the remote.

Beaming isn't concerning me at this point as my LCRs are pretty much pointed at me, and I will be able to position the heights, sides and rears so that the main listening position is square or slightly off axis for all speakers. Yes, the front and rear rows may suffer, but my guests will never know the difference (and since 90% of all movies are just me and my wife. Given those concessions, I think I am OK. I like the compression driver speakers but in my case, I am just ready for a change.

My Home Theater of the Month- Le Petit Trianon

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #95 of 727 Old 05-03-2014, 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post

Norm had custom tweaked Toa based loudspeakers in his Cinema that were supposed to be the best sounding horns in Germany for lcr on a large smx screen and he tried out several questeds ended up replacing his audiphile customized TOAs with three LT-10s behind screen.
Not only did I get a couple of thank you notes, he commented these speakers do something very special and unique.



Give an example of a compression horn that is transparent at high spl's besides the ocean way studio's .....

Peter, I am so pleased that my question at this point is which and how many Questeds to buy. Much consternation, but I am almost there. You've got a great line and have been fabulous in helping me in my long journey.

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There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #96 of 727 Old 05-03-2014, 04:39 PM
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Don't make me blush. Oh I knew they would fare well in a/b/c.And Roger has a great ear. I am just dying to see these guys biggrin.gif faces when you fire up the system at your ht meet. Paradigm shift time!cool.gif
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post #97 of 727 Old 05-03-2014, 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted by FOH View Post



... AMTs are superb, I've heard the finest. Quested are similarly outstanding. However, for a HT scenario, with seats spanning both left and right, fore and aft, I'd examine the best compression platformed offerings, as my first choice.

My take, thanks.

 

It would require a bespoke build I guess... But, Beyma does offer their AMT unit with a horn lens.

 

Here's pictures with and without.

 

         

 

 

Some interesting information for you maybe is the use of the Mundorf ProAMT being used by EM Acoustics of the UK for pro sound reinforcement in their HALO-C unit.  I think a lot of your concerns have or are being addressed.

 

Some links:

http://www.emacoustics.co.uk/halo-compact/components/halo-c

 

The Mundorf ProAMT:

http://www.mundorf.com/PDF/MUNDORF_PROAMT_FLYER_2012.pdf

 

Some comparisons of the Mundorf ProAMT to compression drivers:

http://mundorf.com/PDF/AMT_ROYAL_ALBERT_HALL_EN.pdf

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post #98 of 727 Old 05-03-2014, 06:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by thebland View Post

You know, in comparing the Questeds to two other compression driver speakers I have on site , the Questeds, to me and a buddy, were easier to listen to and cleaner up top. Curt set up the Trinnov so all were properly EQ'd, time aligned, etc and I could really compare via A/B/C on the remote.

Hi Jeff, the speakers were auditioned through an equalizer? What were they equalized to - a perceptual flat response by Trinnov room correction? This is a different approach from how I would audition speakers, but I could see some logic.

Were you able to audition both LT10 and LT20? How did they sound different to you?

Regards, Can
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post #99 of 727 Old 05-03-2014, 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted by cannga View Post

Hi Jeff, the speakers were auditioned through an equalizer? What were they equalized to - a perceptual flat response by Trinnov room correction? This is a different approach from how I would audition speakers, but I could see some logic.

Were you able to audition both LT10 and LT20? How did they sound different to you?

Curt set up by running a calibration for all speakers eq'd via Trinnov. We then ran 2 ch audio in each set - except I had a single specimen of one speaker brand. The. We went through the 3 different speakers. I knew all speakers were dynamic and would meet my objective performance needs. I was really voicing them against each other.

I had the Quested LT-8s on site - no LT-10s or LT-20s. Not able to get those.

A very enjoyable experience over a couple months.

My Home Theater of the Month- Le Petit Trianon

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #100 of 727 Old 05-03-2014, 07:42 PM
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What are list prices for the lt8, 10, and 20? I followed the link posted earlier in the thread but it didn't take me anywhere...

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post #101 of 727 Old 05-03-2014, 07:44 PM
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Can, as an audiophile you would probably have spent the 3 months moving the speakers an 1/8th of an inch at a time in search of nirvana. A comparison between speakers would have taken decades. lol, kidding a fellow audiophile of course.

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post #102 of 727 Old 05-03-2014, 08:09 PM
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not allowed to post but pm'd...
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post #103 of 727 Old 05-04-2014, 01:00 AM
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Question for the experts: The Lyngdorf article that Sanjay quoted mentioned correction of 10-20 db range - doesn't this seem a lot and risk causing distortion to both speakers and amps? Has anyone looked at distortion level at the speakers at *high* volume level, once room correction is applied?
For example, I know at high volume level, my Thiel woofers are already at max excursion, what happens if the RC calls for more output say at 60 hertz? This would be the kiss of death for my beloved CS5i.
Similarly, at midrange and treble levels, what if the correction that RC calls for causes distortion of the midrange and treble drivers? *How* would you know or measure? For those of us already using RC, what levels of correction are you seeing typically?

Fascinating projects for my CB 4, when (not if cool.gif) it gets here: measurements! First measurement will involve the pair of amps: Krell FPB 600 and Classe CA 400. Subjectively, among other things the Krell always sounds like it has deeper bass, Classe more mid bass. I can't wait to see if this will show in the room measurements and how RC will handle it. Next will be the two tube preamps (CJ and Melos) versus the solid state Spectral preamp. This is exciting time for audiophiles.

Can, have you measured your existing system with REW? I suggest you do so well before deploying Dirac Live.

(PS it can be hilarious to listen to people fussing over cable x versus y or really left-field inexplicable tweaks when they haven't looked at their room acoustics which have a dramatically bigger impact on quality than almost anything else in their system. There's a thread over on Computer Audiophile discussing the "amazing benefits" of powering the music library SSD from a battery even when SSDs inherently have very good noise rejection - perhaps people just moved their head a few inches)

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post #104 of 727 Old 05-04-2014, 01:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Can, as an audiophile you would probably have spent the 3 months moving the speakers an 1/8th of an inch at a time in search of nirvana. A comparison between speakers would have taken decades. lol, kidding a fellow audiophile of course.

I ain't talking... tongue.gif I am not that "bad" actually. I think I am a "crossover" audiophile, certain things like comparative listening tests I bring to exhaustive OCD level, others like cable lifter, etc., I don't follow. I would spend a whole weekend carrying out elaborate 6922 tube shoot outs with headphone tube amp, but speaker placements I promise are not measured to the mm, only cm :-).

The other day when you and I were talking Dirac I did spend nearly 2 hours while stuck in LA traffic switching and analyzing bass/voice/imaging between Dirac vs. Non -Dirac in my BMW until I could blindly identify which is which, so I guess it does get a little nutty sometimes.
BTW prices of some Quested are here: http://www.funky-junk.com/quested-lt10-p-passive-high-power-10-speakers-pair/. Sounds like around $6800 for a pair of the 10? I don't follow pricing of theater speakers at all - are these prices considered to be normal, or high/very high for these types of speakers?

Steve, no I have not measured but yes I did read about REW the other day, per your mentioning I think. I do plan to try when I gather enough energy to read about, try to understand another "project," and gather the stuffs to do it.

Regards, Can
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post #105 of 727 Old 05-04-2014, 03:15 AM
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It's well worth it. A stunning piece of freeware and after using it (and reading, for example, Master Handbook of Acoustics 5th Edition) you really get your priorities right with respect to what to focus on with your system. The simplest eye opener is to play an 80Hz tone and walk around your room. Also read Nyal's and Jeff Hedback's paper on acoustical standards as a primer. REW is a relatively quick learn and well worth the investment.

http://static.squarespace.com/static/513e1e34e4b00efcff5b05fd/51523db2e4b05218a1268532/51523db3e4b05218a126876f/1340681100537/acoustic_measurement_standards.pdf

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post #106 of 727 Old 05-04-2014, 04:27 AM
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Can your link is at pounds, each so by that calc 13,400us ia it is short of 11 us for a pair.
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post #107 of 727 Old 05-04-2014, 05:55 AM
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Can your link is at pounds, each so by that calc 13,400us ia it is short of 11 us for a pair.

Can is right. Yes the pricing is in £ sterling but the price is for a pair. One should not pay VAT if they were being exported. So about $6,750 a pair. (Unless they are misquoting "pair".)

Egglestonworks Andra III, Andra III Centre, Rosa (as surround). Rel Stentor II. Theta CB IV. Krell FPB 200 and two KAV 150a amps. Custom-built audio server. Oppo 103EU. Apple TV. Pioneer PDP-LX608D. Synergistic Research "Element Copper" front speaker cable. Cardas Clear Light bal interconnects.
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post #108 of 727 Old 05-04-2014, 05:56 AM
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Originally Posted by stevekale View Post

Can is right. Yes the pricing is in £ sterling but the price is for a pair. One should not pay VAT if they were being exported. So about $6,750 a pair.

They are coming out more than that.. and the picture in that link is an LT-8.

My Home Theater of the Month- Le Petit Trianon

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #109 of 727 Old 05-04-2014, 05:58 AM
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They are coming out more than that.. and the picture in that link is an LT-8.

Call them up and hold them to their advertised price.

LT8-P

http://www.funky-junk.com/quested-lt8-p-passive-high-power-8-speaker/

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post #110 of 727 Old 05-04-2014, 06:02 AM
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Originally Posted by stevekale View Post

Call them up and hold them to their advertised price.

LT8-P

http://www.funky-junk.com/quested-lt8-p-passive-high-power-8-speaker/

Here's the calculator I ran of the pricing at Funky Junk. But add overseas shipping, too@!


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There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #111 of 727 Old 05-04-2014, 06:07 AM
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Deduct 20% for the VAT from your calculation. Overseas shipping isn't massive.

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post #112 of 727 Old 05-04-2014, 06:14 AM
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Deduct 20% for the VAT from your calculation. Overseas shipping isn't massive.

I was just commenting on the pricing and conversion - Peter is my guy and will be buying through him. He's made the demo and more possible... and besides, when it's all done, I'm going to throw a party with the local home theater group and I'm getting him up here to see all in person and have some drinks!biggrin.gif

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post #113 of 727 Old 05-04-2014, 06:21 AM
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Can we baptize the theater with a moon of Neptune name? How does Triton or Proteus sound?
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post #114 of 727 Old 05-04-2014, 06:57 AM
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Can we baptize the theater with a moon of Neptune name? How does Triton or Proteus sound?

Hmmm... Gotta think on that one since my wife originally named the theater, "Le Petit Trianon". She had lived in Paris before we met. We have a small placard on the theater door with that name... but on the French theme, I've got some 20+ years old Chateau Lynch-Bages that we can baptize it with...

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There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #115 of 727 Old 05-04-2014, 09:09 AM
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post #116 of 727 Old 05-04-2014, 10:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by thebland View Post

Curt set up by running a calibration for all speakers eq'd via Trinnov. We then ran 2 ch audio in each set - except I had a single specimen of one speaker brand. The. We went through the 3 different speakers. I knew all speakers were dynamic and would meet my objective performance needs. I was really voicing them against each other.
I had the Quested LT-8s on site - no LT-10s or LT-20s. Not able to get those.
A very enjoyable experience over a couple months.

Which Quested? Jeff, my vote would be that for the front 3, you sell some of your precious wine bottles tongue.gif and go for broke, the LT 20. Front 3 channels IMHO and estimate dominate 90% of action movies and 99% of good movies. For me, even in big scenes like Super 8's Train Wreck and Gravity, it's still the front 3 and subwoofer that dominate the sound. The height and surround speakers impress 0.5% of the time, when there are flies overhead :-), and another 0.5% for ambient/atmostpheric sound, which doesn't need to be as hi-fi. One question though, how big is your room anyway and why there seems to be such a need for "loudness" if I may ask?

Keep in mind though that I believe LT8 that you auditioned is not the same design as LT 10. LT8 has ribbon tweeter IIRC and LT10/20 use the prominent sounding mid/high combo AMT drivers - not the same so what you auditioned may not be same as what you get. If you are spending such big bucks, I would hope Peter could arrange to give you a pair each of LT10 and LT20 to audition (don't argue I am trying to help you here :-)). Dangerous to buy speakers un-auditioned; speaker and turntable cartridge are two components with the most variable character, and your room and ears are different from anyone else.

What kind of equalized curve did you use? Same target curve for all 3 speakers that you auditioned? Perceptually flat with a downward tilt towards the high end? Thanks.

Regards, Can
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post #117 of 727 Old 05-04-2014, 11:06 AM
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Originally Posted by cannga View Post

Which Quested? Jeff, my vote would be that for the front 3, you sell some of your precious wine bottles tongue.gif and go for broke, the LT 20. Front 3 channels IMHO and estimate dominate 90% of action movies and 99% of good movies. For me, even in big scenes like Super 8's Train Wreck and Gravity, it's still the front 3 and subwoofer that dominate the sound. The height and surround speakers impress 0.5% of the time, when there are flies overhead :-), and another 0.5% for ambient/atmostpheric sound, which doesn't need to be as hi-fi. One question though, how big is your room anyway and why there seems to be such a need for "loudness" if I may ask?

Keep in mind though that I believe LT8 that you auditioned is not the same design as LT 10. LT8 has ribbon tweeter IIRC and LT10/20 use the prominent sounding mid/high combo AMT drivers - not the same so what you auditioned may not be same as what you get. If you are spending such big bucks, I would hope Peter could arrange to give you a pair each of LT10 and LT20 to audition (don't argue I am trying to help you here :-)). Dangerous to buy speakers un-auditioned; speaker and turntable cartridge are two components with the most variable character, and your room and ears are different from anyone else.

What kind of equalized curve did you use? Same target curve for all 3 speakers that you auditioned? Perceptually flat with a downward tilt towards the high end? Thanks.

In terms of SPL, both the LT-10 and LT-20 will get to 115 db. It's really the greater size of the LT-20 and my narrow space behind the screen that is the issue. It costs a bit more. Moreover, with the LT-10s, I can get a greater distance (space) between the heights as it is significantly shorter. I have 4 Seaton Submersives behind my screen as well. You know, I agree getting the LT-20s and LT-10s would be ideal but with set up, EQ, etc, it is a big project. I look at it as I like the LT-8s quite a bit but the others are substantially more refined, so likely I ma good... and after you run everything through DIRAC or TRNNOV, you have something else. The voice of the ribbon is what I liked.cut and dry, particularly with room constraints and the need for so many speakers. Moreover, I casn buy the passive LT-10s and convert to active on site when I decide to go that way (or actively crossover through Trinnov when the piece becomes available).

The process is not as easy as I'd hoped for and all these extra speakers is retrofitted in my older design room is another issue.

Same curve all speakers. Essentially the curve you described that faded at the end though the Questeds were the flattest speaker of the lot. IF Curt is looking in, he could be even more specific as he supplied it.

My Home Theater of the Month- Le Petit Trianon

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #118 of 727 Old 05-04-2014, 02:45 PM
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Chateau Lynch-Bages that we can baptize it with...

Oooh! One of my favourites!

While not 20+ years old, I did have a lovely 2001 "The Armagh" this evening!

Egglestonworks Andra III, Andra III Centre, Rosa (as surround). Rel Stentor II. Theta CB IV. Krell FPB 200 and two KAV 150a amps. Custom-built audio server. Oppo 103EU. Apple TV. Pioneer PDP-LX608D. Synergistic Research "Element Copper" front speaker cable. Cardas Clear Light bal interconnects.
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post #119 of 727 Old 05-04-2014, 03:42 PM
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In the mid late 80's Bebe Rebozo gave me a bottle of Cht Latour 76. It was incredible but, ate a very good burger with it. Sacrilege? I also had a DP58 in 1977 inside a room replete with african game taxidermy , the big 5 and everything down the list.. Fantastic.

But when in Pushkin Feb 2012 I partaked in a 8,000$ dinner for 14. the oligarch client was going to join us 2.5 hours later, so the architect for the space ship house ordered dp (did not catch year but must have been vintage ) and beluga for the whole table, plus numerous servings sampling every russian delicassy meat,fowl,fish,and veggies, incredible they were bringing plates during more than one hour.

When the client got there he looked at the 8th through 11 half bottles of DP and pointing at them instructed: "get this sh_t off the table and bring 3 bottles of:




3 BECAME 6 the architects continued on to some s&m burlesque and lost the company credit card and nearly were arrested walking the streets at 5am by the mp. The client took us by convoy (these are bomb proof escalades and a bentley that travel at very high speeds in city traffic maintaining 2 feet in between cars no matter what, the rear escalade opens the lane for the bentley and front escalade, walkie takies yakking back and forth, the driver bodyguards are ex KGB, they also zig zag through side streets instead of taking direct routes, i am riding shotgun in the back escalade savoring the entire adventure, SURREALISM as I have ever experienced.


So we ended up at 3am, in an empty red square with these two street cleaning armor personnel carriers, which are very powerful and after 5 minutes coming our way the spinning brushes started swinging beer bottles at us, client and all. A night to remember and to think Russia may never be the same....that and my birthday party at the discos where being the best dancing male (those guys cant dance for sh.. I had a captive audience with the ladies) are my 2 most memorable nights in Moscow.
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post #120 of 727 Old 05-05-2014, 12:35 AM
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Ha! Despite today's troubles, Moscow remains the best place in the world (outside of Ibiza during the season) to party! Pushkin is certainly an experience. There's a good chance I know/have met your client. (PS I believe almost all Russian vodka is made in the same state-owned factories. From there it is merely branded and promoted differently)

Egglestonworks Andra III, Andra III Centre, Rosa (as surround). Rel Stentor II. Theta CB IV. Krell FPB 200 and two KAV 150a amps. Custom-built audio server. Oppo 103EU. Apple TV. Pioneer PDP-LX608D. Synergistic Research "Element Copper" front speaker cable. Cardas Clear Light bal interconnects.
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