10,000 Lumen Laser Projector - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 20 Old 04-07-2014, 11:48 AM - Thread Starter
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I'll bet this throws an awesome picture!! Interesting to see laser starting to become available.

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post #2 of 20 Old 04-10-2014, 12:40 AM
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Contrast ratio 2,000:1 tongue.gif

It's good to see laser devices starting to appear but until the contrast ratios start climbing over 10,000:1 they are of little interest?

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post #3 of 20 Old 04-18-2014, 08:30 PM
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Contrast on the 12K lumens version was indeed limited. Colour close to Rec. 709, so a bit flat.
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post #4 of 20 Old 04-21-2014, 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by donaldk View Post

Contrast on the 12K lumens version was indeed limited. Colour close to Rec. 709, so a bit flat.

Even modded ,what can these do in sequential contrast ?

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post #5 of 20 Old 04-21-2014, 07:59 PM
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2000:1 in shipping product. At ISE I was told there was a bit of room to improve contrast, trading light. But that's just a bit. I liked the stronger colours of the 6K Panasonic better;-). Perhaps Ceenhad can tell us more.
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post #6 of 20 Old 04-23-2014, 12:27 AM
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Perhaps Ceenhad can tell us more.

Sorry nothing more from me. I am 100% Barco now as the brand relaunches in to the residential market.

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post #7 of 20 Old 04-24-2014, 09:07 AM
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Elephant in the room with the commercial projectors, contrast is distractingly low. Great color, great light output, nice panels but can you tolerate sequential contrast that we thought was long gone more than a decade ago for the other performance advantages.

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post #8 of 20 Old 04-24-2014, 10:26 AM
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That is why they are making residential versions ;-)

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post #9 of 20 Old 04-24-2014, 01:54 PM
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Contrast ratio, or perceived contrast ratio is a function of room lighting. The 10K version is for high ambient light environments. To make a unit for theatrical conditions on screens up to 16' wide, (max for 99% of residential) you only need about 3000 lumens, but very good contrast.

Also, the world has to start looking at ANSI CR once again, because sequential is not very useful. Companies are reporting 500,000:1 CR. Really? At any given point in time, the human eye can only see about 1000:1 CR. (inter scene). What we want are excellent black levels and great gray ramp performance. You don't always get that just because you have great CR specs.

Color gamut is a function of illumination type and luminance maximization. Phosphor laser projectors can do wider color gamut, but at the expense of light output. NEC's Laser hybrid will do DCI color but at roughly 6000 lumens. Lamp based projectors can't really get much beyond DCI and cannot reach SMPTE 20-20. Take a look at the Sony 4K and switch from Rec 709 to DCI and watch the light output drop to half and you will see what I mean.
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post #10 of 20 Old 04-24-2014, 03:58 PM
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Originally Posted by digitalgw View Post

Also, the world has to start looking at ANSI CR once again, because sequential is not very useful. Companies are reporting 500,000:1 CR. Really? At any given point in time, the human eye can only see about 1000:1 CR. (inter scene).

ANSI CR is an extreme situation; with low-APL material the intrascene CR will depend largely on the on/off CR.

Which is not to say that high ANSI CR isn't also desirable.

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post #11 of 20 Old 04-24-2014, 05:21 PM
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Also, the world has to start looking at ANSI CR once again, because sequential is not very useful. Companies are reporting 500,000:1 CR. Really? At any given point in time, the human eye can only see about 1000:1 CR. (inter scene). What we want are excellent black levels and great gray ramp performance. You don't always get that just because you have great CR specs.

.

I respectfully disagree. You are right that we don't need 10,000 lumens for most home installations and certainly DLP has enough ANSI contrast right now for excellent performance in mid to high APL situations but sequential contrast is very very poor in these commercial units ,even the modded ones . Right now, we have just about everything but high light output (over 5000 calibrated lumens) with moderate to high sequential contrast in the same device. I'm not referring to a million to one but even 10,000:1. It really is difficult to imagine, at this late date, that you've not been able to see what say, 25fL with high ANSI and then 2000:1,3500:1,4000:1 and 6000:1 look like, I have. The difference is striking and incredibly important to performance .This is the reason CRT based projection looked so good despite the very low intrascene contrast they had.

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post #12 of 20 Old 04-25-2014, 08:32 AM
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I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I agree that we need to have between 5000:1 and 10,000:1 CR and about 3000 lumens for a good theatrical display, with roughly 20 - 25 ft lamberts. That can be achieved by placing fixed apertures in proper locations in the lens and light path. The HL laser is capable of this as it stands right now. What I was saying is for high ambient conditions, you need 50 - 100 ft. lamberts and 2000:1 is adequate.
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post #13 of 20 Old 04-27-2014, 09:37 AM
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Who is adding an iris to both the light path and lens in modded commercial projectors ?

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post #14 of 20 Old 04-27-2014, 10:02 AM
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Barco as standard, from factory, on all residential DCI units.

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post #15 of 20 Old 04-27-2014, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by ceenhad View Post

Barco as standard, from factory, on all residential DCI units.

Thanks ! I'm looking at BARCO residential and I seem to see only one projector there and it's a dual UHP unit ; are there others ?

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post #16 of 20 Old 04-27-2014, 03:01 PM
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All models from small single chip to monster 4k DCI. There is a model in the resi range called Zeus based on the dp10 platform which has especially impressed me for value/performance. The new alchemy platform also brings many improvements to the table.

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post #17 of 20 Old 05-08-2014, 07:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post

I respectfully disagree. You are right that we don't need 10,000 lumens for most home installations and certainly DLP has enough ANSI contrast right now for excellent performance in mid to high APL situations but sequential contrast is very very poor in these commercial units ,even the modded ones . Right now, we have just about everything but high light output (over 5000 calibrated lumens) with moderate to high sequential contrast in the same device. I'm not referring to a million to one but even 10,000:1. It really is difficult to imagine, at this late date, that you've not been able to see what say, 25fL with high ANSI and then 2000:1,3500:1,4000:1 and 6000:1 look like, I have. The difference is striking and incredibly important to performance .This is the reason CRT based projection looked so good despite the very low intrascene contrast they had.

Art

I agree. I have several digital projectors at the moment. Presently I'm using a LED/laser hybrid DLP 1080p 3D business projector more than my home theatre projectors. It has a great lens shift feature for easy setup and just under 1000 lumens when calibrated. What I really like is the convenience -- on and off all the time or just left on while I deal with other things. No more lamp worries. This projector is used 95% of the time -- Netflix, T.V. internet, etc. Its weakest link is on/off contrast in 2D -- some dark material looks good to very good while other material has greyed out blacks. The blacks for 3D with glasses on is very good and not an issue. 3D is very good -- no ghosting for an extremely detailed and clean 3D image. I had image noise issues with it until I moved it to another room with a different HTPC and Oppo BD player -- the noise issue disappeared. When laser HT projectors with high on/off contrast hit the market for a reasonable price I'll get one.
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post #18 of 20 Old 05-09-2014, 12:51 PM
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Panasonic? Or what other 1080P hybrids are there? The Acer K750 can not be calibrated.
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post #19 of 20 Old 05-23-2014, 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by donaldk View Post

Panasonic? Or what other 1080P hybrids are there? The Acer K750 can not be calibrated.

I's the Panasonic PT-RZ470.
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post #20 of 20 Old 05-23-2014, 03:39 PM
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I thought it really needed its full brightness, as shown at ISE 2013. That was the 370, but that's the same unit without portraitmode and edge-blending, the 470 was shown on small screen in portraitmode, with two images blended on top op eachother, for advertising display, not video. And with the 20K hours specced at -50%, so even the lineair drop-off doesn't offer too much leeway.
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