2 channel room correction in the analog domain with HT bypass? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 43 Old 04-25-2014, 02:21 PM - Thread Starter
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After years of not making any changes to my system, I have the upgrade bug again and just switched out my Martin Logan Vantages for Spires and a very old and tired Krell Showcase for a Parasound Halo A31. I am currently using an Integra DHC 9.9 pre/pro and looking to upgrade that. I care much more about 2-channel than anything else but need something with room correction due to my loft-style condo.

 

I am wondering if there are any good 2-channel room correction solutions with HT bypass that would allow me to use a solid external DAC (Perfectwave comes to mind)? Obviously running analog ins to my Integra and then applying Audysseywould be a waste of time+money given the A->D->A that would be necessary for the Audyssey.

 

I saw this but it doesn't seem to have HT bypass: http://www.minidsp.com/dirac-series/ddrc-22a

 

Any thoughts are greatly appreciated!

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post #2 of 43 Old 04-25-2014, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by justin42 View Post

After years of not making any changes to my system, I have the upgrade bug again and just switched out my Martin Logan Vantages for Spires and a very old and tired Krell Showcase for a Parasound Halo A31. I am currently using an Integra DHC 9.9 pre/pro and looking to upgrade that. I care much more about 2-channel than anything else but need something with room correction due to my loft-style condo.

I am wondering if there are any good 2-channel room correction solutions with HT bypass that would allow me to use a solid external DAC (Perfectwave comes to mind)? Obviously running analog ins to my Integra and then applying Audysseywould be a waste of time+money given the A->D->A that would be necessary for the Audyssey.

I saw this but it doesn't seem to have HT bypass: http://www.minidsp.com/dirac-series/ddrc-22a

Any thoughts are greatly appreciated!

This is DRC in the digital domain.
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post #3 of 43 Old 04-25-2014, 02:43 PM - Thread Starter
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This is DRC in the digital domain.

Ah. I misread/misunderstood how it works then. That being said, are there any options out there that might fit the bill? Or should I just be looking at a better pre/pro? I assume there are options that are better for 2-ch music than my Integra but less pricy than Theta?
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post #4 of 43 Old 04-25-2014, 03:04 PM
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Ah. I misread/misunderstood how it works then. That being said, are there any options out there that might fit the bill? Or should I just be looking at a better pre/pro? I assume there are options that are better for 2-ch music than my Integra but less pricy than Theta?

The Dirac based unit you are looking at would work fine. A Trinnov 4 channel unit would foot the bill. Around 6K for the ST2 Pro. I just sold mine used.
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post #5 of 43 Old 04-25-2014, 03:20 PM
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post #6 of 43 Old 04-25-2014, 03:27 PM
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There is an st2 on ebay UK

http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_nkw=Trinnov

Looks like a good deal. Confirm voltage can be set to 110 before jumping on it....
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post #7 of 43 Old 04-26-2014, 10:21 AM
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Those aren't analog

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post #8 of 43 Old 04-26-2014, 10:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Ok, I guess I'm approaching this wrong and there isn't a solution along the lines I was thinking. Any thoughts on how to improve my pre/pro either by adding a separate 2-channel DAC or another pre/pro entirely in the 5k range?
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post #9 of 43 Old 04-26-2014, 02:51 PM
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What are your sources? If they are all digital (Blu Ray or CD players with HDMI, S/PDIF or Toslink outputs), in this price range I would look for a pre/pro or receiver with Audyssey MultEQ XT32; Denon or Integra come to mind. These will have very high quality DACs, and keeping everything in the digital domain is useful for both surround sound and stereo content (especially when using room correction or bass management). Putting an outboard DAC between your signal source and the pre/pro doesn't make a ton of sense, since the pre/pro will convert back to digital to do the room correction & bass management.
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post #10 of 43 Old 04-26-2014, 06:23 PM - Thread Starter
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My sources are all digital—Oppo blu-ray player and all my music is in flac. I've been looking at the newer Integra 80.3 to replace my 9.9. I've also heard good things about the NAD master series but I think it's a bit dated compared to the Integras.
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post #11 of 43 Old 04-26-2014, 09:10 PM
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My sources are all digital...

Did you mean to specify analog RC?

Because the result w/digital sources will be inferior when input directly into digital RC.

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post #12 of 43 Old 04-27-2014, 06:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Did you mean to specify analog RC?

Because the result w/digital sources will be inferior when input directly into digital RC.

I did. What I was hoping to do was keep using the Integra for the Oppo and cable, and add an outboard DAC and better 2-ch preamp for music.
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post #13 of 43 Old 04-27-2014, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by justin42 View Post

Ok, I guess I'm approaching this wrong and there isn't a solution along the lines I was thinking. Any thoughts on how to improve my pre/pro either by adding a separate 2-channel DAC or another pre/pro entirely in the 5k range?

Hi I too have Martin Logan ( Monolith - unfortunately still in garage as I don't have room yet - kids have not moved out :-)), following is all IMHO of course. If I understand you correctly, music is of prime concern and currently the system uses an Integra to drive Parasound amp to Martin Logan? Would be helpful to know what is it that is bothering you about the current system? What's wrong and what are you trying to improve?

At any rate, assuming "I simply have the bug" is the answer, although Integra is a great product, I think it's very likely not a good match for the rest of your system, and I believe that a good 2 channel preamp, whether tube or solid state, is the first order of business, NOT room correction. RC has its place but the basic sound has to be right first - you can't room correct a Japanese receiver into a Theta Casablanca is an extreme example, for example.

No one in his right mind should/would tell you what specific preamp sounds best for your system. Unless you are a seasoned veteran of multiple audio component A/B blind tests :-) IMHO the best and only way to pick a preamp is to listen with your own ears by way of your local dealers. Also find out if you have local Martin Logan dealer and see what preamp they are using. If at all possible, borrow different preamps home and compare to your Integra - don't switch unless you could hear an improvement. Buying from local dealers might cost more but in your case, I think it's a must because of the necessity of the all critical listening tests. For Martin Logan to sing, I would very strongly recommend a tube preamp for music, but this is just personal preference.
Once you settle with a preamp, a good DAC would be next; as expected this process will take time and $ and listening tests to be done correctly.

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post #14 of 43 Old 04-27-2014, 03:59 PM
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My sources are all digital—Oppo blu-ray player and all my music is in flac. I've been looking at the newer Integra 80.3 to replace my 9.9. I've also heard good things about the NAD master series but I think it's a bit dated compared to the Integras.

If you really care about two channel then I would strongly advise buying a two channel preamp with room correction built in. Feed it digitally from the SPDIF coaxial output of your Oppo. For HT you run the Oppo into your pre-pro via HDMI. The two channel preamp is inserted between your pre-pro and power amps and when used for HT is fed analog signals.

Most Japanese pre-pros sound crappy in the context of a high end audio system. I'd look at the rare breed of product which is a two channel preamp with room correction built in. Look at DEQX PreMATE, HDP-4 or Express-II, Trinnov ST2-HiFi, Classe CP800, Lyngdorf DPA1. Or upgrade to an 'audiophile' pre-pro like a Classe, Bryston or Theta.

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post #15 of 43 Old 04-27-2014, 05:26 PM - Thread Starter
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If you really care about two channel then I would strongly advise buying a two channel preamp with room correction built in. Feed it digitally from the SPDIF coaxial output of your Oppo. For HT you run the Oppo into your pre-pro via HDMI. The two channel preamp is inserted between your pre-pro and power amps and when used for HT is fed analog signals.

Most Japanese pre-pros sound crappy in the context of a high end audio system. I'd look at the rare breed of product which is a two channel preamp with room correction built in. Look at DEQX PreMATE, HDP-4 or Express-II, Trinnov ST2-HiFi, Classe CP800, Lyngdorf DPA1. Or upgrade to an 'audiophile' pre-pro like a Classe, Bryston or Theta.

That's what I had in mind (except I'll feed the new preamp from my FLAC library via Sonos), thank you for those suggestions.

 

I thought the Bryston didn't do room correction? Theta is really the perfect solution for me, just too much $$ right now. I'll look into the Classe.

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That's what I had in mind (except I'll feed the new preamp from my FLAC library via Sonos), thank you for those suggestions.

I thought the Bryston didn't do room correction? Theta is really the perfect solution for me, just too much $$ right now. I'll look into the Classe.

If you play two channel from a server, just get something like a caps 3 with Dirac live and run it into a good USB dac, and then get a preamp with HT bypass. Or get a dac with volume control and analog input (theta, MSB, wyred4sound), which you can use as HT bypass at unity gain.
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post #17 of 43 Old 04-27-2014, 07:17 PM - Thread Starter
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If you play two channel from a server, just get something like a caps 3 with Dirac live and run it into a good USB dac, and then get a preamp with HT bypass. Or get a dac with volume control and analog input (theta, MSB, wyred4sound), which you can use as HT bypass at unity gain.

I don't have a dedicated server in my audio room; I use a Sonos Z90 to feed my processor. Is there a standalone Dirac box that can output room corrected digital via USB? Then I could so something like Sonos->??->Perfectwave Mark II?

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post #18 of 43 Old 04-27-2014, 07:42 PM
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I don't have a dedicated server in my audio room; I use a Sonos Z90 to feed my processor. Is there a standalone Dirac box that can output room corrected digital via USB? Then I could so something like Sonos->??->Perfectwave Mark II?

Sure. Lose the sonos, run you library on a server with jriver and run Dirac on this server. USB out to dac and presto. Works brilliantly.
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That's what I had in mind (except I'll feed the new preamp from my FLAC library via Sonos), thank you for those suggestions.

I thought the Bryston didn't do room correction? Theta is really the perfect solution for me, just too much $$ right now. I'll look into the Classe.

Yeah sorry the Bryston does not have RC.

BTW some of the two channel boxes I recommended sound as good as a standalone DAC like a PS Audio PerfectWave (the DEQX and the Trinnov).

The Theta Casablanca works exceptionally well in a high end two channel system, especially with the outboard Gen DAC.

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post #20 of 43 Old 04-27-2014, 08:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Sure. Lose the sonos, run you library on a server with jriver and run Dirac on this server. USB out to dac and presto. Works brilliantly.

How did I not know this was a thing?? I have been out of the loop for too long apparently. This sounds like an excellent solution for me. Thank you all so much for the information.

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post #21 of 43 Old 04-27-2014, 09:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Would a Mac mini work as a server for jriver and Dirac? Then I could feed usb into a DAC+preamp with HT bypass (maybe one of the bel canto DACs?)
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Would a Mac mini work as a server for jriver and Dirac? Then I could feed usb into a DAC+preamp with HT bypass (maybe one of the bel canto DACs?)

I believe Amarra has a version with Dirac build in. The Bel Canto DAC would work. But I believe they A/D convert the analog input. It is supposed to be completely transparent, and your HT source is not super high quality anyway, but most people would not like the idea.
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I believe Amarra has a version with Dirac build in. The Bel Canto DAC would work. But I believe they A/D convert the analog input. It is supposed to be completely transparent, and your HT source is not super high quality anyway, but most people would not like the idea.

Cool, I'll look into the Amarra option as well. Good to know about the Bel Canto and the additional A/D conversion. In the final analysis I probably won't care much because, as you point out, my HT pre/pro is fairly mid-range.

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The Wyred DAC2 also looks like a decent option. https://wyred4sound.com/products/dacs/dac-2-series

 

My thinking is that I'll pick up a DAC+preamp with HT bypass in the ~$2k range to play with. If I like the sound I'm getting running my music off a server+Dirac (most of the programs appear to have trial periods as well) I can think about moving to a better preamp and standalone DAC. Thank you all so much for all of the excellent advice (and patience with some seriously dumb questions).

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The Wyred DAC2 also looks like a decent option. https://wyred4sound.com/products/dacs/dac-2-series

My thinking is that I'll pick up a DAC+preamp with HT bypass in the ~$2k range to play with. If I like the sound I'm getting running my music off a server+Dirac (most of the programs appear to have trial periods as well) I can think about moving to a better preamp and standalone DAC. Thank you all so much for all of the excellent advice (and patience with some seriously dumb questions).

Good strategy. Bel Canto DACs show up all the time used, and if you buy smart, you can try it out and resell without loss. I circulated many Bel Canto devices through my system and never lost a penny. So if you're thinking longer term get a DAC that meets your need that can be resold. Don't be too hung up on "HT bypass" on the DAC. What you need is a DAC with analog input - you can set this to unity gain and use as de facto HT bypass.
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Good strategy. Bel Canto DACs show up all the time used, and if you buy smart, you can try it out and resell without loss. I circulated many Bel Canto devices through my system and never lost a penny. So if you're thinking longer term get a DAC that meets your need that can be resold. Don't be too hung up on "HT bypass" on the DAC. What you need is a DAC with analog input - you can set this to unity gain and use as de facto HT bypass.

 

Good point on the analog input. The new Benchmark DAC2 HGC also looks awesome.

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Good point on the analog input. The new Benchmark DAC2 HGC also looks awesome.

Draw up a list of contenders in your pricerange and then scout audiogon for one of these to show up at a good price. Then try it for "proof of concept". If the concept works, you can then gradually work your way up the foodchain, as new funds become available. Don't agonize about whether the Benchmark, Bel Canto or wyre4sound is the best DAC. They are all good DACs you can happily live with.
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Draw up a list of contenders in your pricerange and then scout audiogon for one of these to show up at a good price. Then try it for "proof of concept". If the concept works, you can then gradually work your way up the foodchain, as new funds become available. Don't agonize about whether the Benchmark, Bel Canto or wyre4sound is the best DAC. They are all good DACs you can happily live with.

 

That's the plan!

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post #29 of 43 Old 04-28-2014, 09:20 AM
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Draw up a list of contenders in your pricerange and then scout audiogon for one of these to show up at a good price. Then try it for "proof of concept". If the concept works, you can then gradually work your way up the foodchain, as new funds become available. Don't agonize about whether the Benchmark, Bel Canto or wyre4sound is the best DAC. They are all good DACs you can happily live with.

Agree with this advice! Too easy to um and ah about relatively inconsequential differences in the big scheme of things.

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post #30 of 43 Old 04-28-2014, 11:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Just pulled the trigger on the Benchmark DAC2. They were having a 10% off sale today and they have a generous in-home trial. Now I just need a good USB mic for dirac, are there are decent options available on amazon or locally (guitar center etc?); would love to play around with this over the weekend while I've got the house to myself.

 

http://benchmarkmedia.com/products/benchmark-dac2-hgc-digital-to-analog-audio-converter

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