Sony VPL-VW5000ES 4K Laser - Page 32 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #931 of 2112 Old 06-16-2016, 12:21 AM
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does a video scaler like the lumagen provide any better quality or is
the video scaling in the vw5000 enough?

I am planning on a trinnov altitude sound processor but this has only hdmi 1.4 so i am thinking of byuing an hdmi scaler or switcher to connect the hdmi picture directly to the vw5000 and seperate the hdmi sound to,the trinnov
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post #932 of 2112 Old 06-16-2016, 01:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lasalle View Post
I had a chance to see the Sony at the Tech Summit in Fort Lauderdale this week along with Peter. The DPI 3 chip laser was also there for comparison ( also a Wolf and an Epson Laser, but not the new high powered pro models). Going in the best projector picture I've seen was Alan's contrast modified 4K xenon Barco.
Also Peter's LG OLED tv served as a reference benchmark from my perspective. After viewing the projectors we went back to viewing UHD HDR content on the LG as a fresh reference. We spent about 30 min on both the Sony and the DPI, which is a lot less time than I have viewing the Barco and LG.

The Sony had a bright, sharp picture with good contrast that can definitely drive a large venue (12+ foot wide) screen, at least in 2D which is what we viewed. I think many who want to move to a large screen could be happy with this with one caveot, color. When compared to the Barco or LG, the Sony seemed a bit cool, and under saturated. With UHD content this extended color produces a 3D depth from the screen back that is very pronounced on the Barco and LG. This depth was much less pronounced on the Sony (and DPI). These color and depth issues I believe are the reason, Peter has been so critical of blue laser projectors. The only possible exception is the new pro Epson 20K lumen laser. I don't believe the home unit at the show uses their new inorganic technology so I was not able to see it but it will be interesting to see more reports on it as it becomes available.
Did they have HDMI in Enhanced or Standard mode?

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post #933 of 2112 Old 06-16-2016, 02:10 AM
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@Lasalle the inorganic phosphor wheels are new:

news.epson.com/.../epson-targets-no-1-position-in-laser-phosphor...
9 feb. 2016 - The Pro L-Series projectors are also the first to integrate a laser-light source with aninorganic phosphor wheel in combination with inorganic


Epson's projector Engineers, that were completely moved onto this new Pro-L range, wich ment there was no capacity for new efforts in HT following the LS10000 showcase/flagship laser-phosphor reflective lcd/LQoS projector.

Yes Epson contact did point out that this is larger than all of Christies global staff, but just for product engineering and for just the projectors;-).

Epson was somewhat apprehensive as to solid state light sources, when the first Delta/Chi Lin, and then the Samsung 3 LCD '1000 lumens' LED came out even with Casio, they told me 'too soon'. Last year point to Casio's marginal penetration in the business projector market, what 3.5% in EMEA last year (or 2014 already?) after 5-6 years.

'We will be there when we think technology and market is there'. And low and behold there was first the LS10000 and now the L-Pro 25000. Calibrated lumens on the LS10000 is not 10000, but 1000-). The new one is geared to larger venues with upto 25000 lumens, so there is a correlation with model name. The smaller 1505 only does 12000 lumens though.

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post #934 of 2112 Old 06-16-2016, 04:12 AM
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Quote:
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Did they have HDMI in Enhanced or Standard mode?
My understanding is both the Sony and the DPI were being feed 4K content. I don't know if it was HDR, mYbe Peter can comment on that.
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Joe they were serving visual sushi at the sony demo. There was no way to tell if it was in enhanced mode,as it was been run by a Stewart employee on an st100. they also had a 75 inch fald monitor which looked in HDR Rio Carnival quite good - seemed perfectly calibrated lacking the scothch green tape look the Samsungs have to it, so the 5000 might have been calibrated. It looked the best thus far, from infocom, cedia and ces to me.

I would say the reds were a bit weak on the ikura. I think when Brad (La Salle) says undersaturated I see that because blu seems to leak (or have a stronger presence) in the blacks which softens up a bit. If it is any consolation I don't see this (blu into black) on the sony as bad as in the three chip or even the single chip (plus rainbows) DLP's; blu laser DLP even the 100k cinema units take the cake on bad.

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post #936 of 2112 Old 06-16-2016, 04:34 AM
 
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Brad can you touch on some of the controversial subjects of our experiments Tuesday and Wednesday?

Like how long it takes for d-box to become and aquired taste, the ideal aspect ratio for immersion, zooming scope to 2.0 on a 16x9 screen the value of IMAX variable aspect ratio flicks in HDR and 3D and which looks best?
UHDHDR, UHDSD WGC or 3D?

Is the multidimensional (3d audio,3d video and d-box) kitchen sink approach to immersion a worthy thing? Etc. Etc.

Also can you touch on the seat design how it affects immersive audio?

All in all...It was a great excersize in pq analysis, I will hook you up with an Epson exec so that you can pursue your INORGANIC inquiries on hdr, 3d, and a possible demo. I really hope if you cannot fit the Thor, or the Prometheus that the Christies detached laser rack makes the new Infinite Contrast rec 2020 hdr hdmi projector small enough for your new home cinema's (shortish throw) hushbox. On which case we would use the reald nanoperf with despeckling of course.

For those curious about the nanoperf screen it is seamed at every 55-60 inches, that was gently detectable away back to some 10 feet , on white full field. something to consider, besides the fact that it is not for sale as reald's model is revenue sharing.

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post #937 of 2112 Old 06-16-2016, 04:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lasalle View Post
My understanding is both the Sony and the DPI were being feed 4K content. I don't know if it was HDR, mYbe Peter can comment on that.
I only ask because even being fed 4K it does not automatically switch. And believe me I am not making excuses for the 5000 it truly requires none. We just noticed for example Deadpool's outfit looked muted or almost an orange ish color. And of course it's hard to know if the Sammy comes into play which is why I can't wait to finally get the Panny.

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Joe they were serving visual sushi at the sony demo. There was no way to tell if it was in enhanced mode,as it was been run by a Stewart employee on an st100. they also had a 75 inch fald monitor which looked in HDR Rio Carnival quite good - seemed perfectly calibrated lacking the scothch green tape look the Samsungs have to it, so the 5000 might have been calibrated. It looked the best thus far, from infocom, cedia and ces to me.
How wide was the st100 screen?
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post #939 of 2112 Old 06-16-2016, 08:34 AM
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Quote:
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Brad can you touch on some of the controversial subjects of our experiments Tuesday and Wednesday?

Like how long it takes for d-box to become and aquired taste, the ideal aspect ratio for immersion, zooming scope to 2.0 on a 16x9 screen the value of IMAX variable aspect ratio flicks in HDR and 3D and which looks best?
UHDHDR, UHDSD WGC or 3D?

Is the multidimensional (3d audio,3d video and d-box) kitchen sink approach to immersion a worthy thing? Etc. Etc.

Also can you touch on the seat design how it affects immersive audio?
.
From a personal preference perspective I have been a long term fan of imax 3D movies and more recently enjoyed the added audio experience of Auro 11.1 in the theater (planning on seeing Atmos in the theater soon). I've also been an audiophile since the early 80's.

Doing the research on my new HT room I have become a big fan of the large venue fully immersive experience. This has caused me to change my screen aspect choice from scope to 16:9 and plan to watch most action and 3D content at something similar to the 1.2 zoom on an Oppo. From my perspective the limits of my field of vision are best maximized by this aspect ratio ( I suspect this is highly personal/subjective).

I was most sceptical initially about d-box and thought it was gimmicky. When I initially tried it it was distracting for the first few minutes, but as I returned my focus to the movie it became a real enhancement to the overall experience. I am now a big fan and enjoy watching with it on whenever I can. I suspect this is also very personal as I'm not convinced my wife (who hates turbulence) will react the same way.

This has lead me to the following projector prioritization
1) Bright enough to support 12+ foot screen with a bright sharp picture even with some ambient light.
2) Same 3D picture support in very controlled light.
3) Able to accept and process UHD HDR content preferably with native 4K chips (have not evaluated some of the newest shifting capabilities)
4) wide accurate color space
5) HDR high contrast capabilities

The projector also has to be smaller than a Yugo and not impose a structural safety hazard in the building. Getting the last 2 right in combination gives that enhance picture depth and richness in 2D but is difficult and expensive.

I believe the Sony will do nicely on the first 3 (although I did not see it in 3D) but struggles with the optimal combination of the last 2

I'll speak more to the audio, when I finish my day job activities.
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post #940 of 2112 Old 06-16-2016, 09:09 AM
 
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How wide was the st100 screen?
I'll post some pics later but about 10 feet wide or less.
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Cool

I have conference call with Epson Engineering tomorrow afternoon to wrap mind around how they could make images(still but still) that blew out the doors @NAB with INORG BLU (under 100 price range); Christie ( on the over 225 range) blew humanities doors all out with the dual presentations , the Ang Lee 4k 3D HFR , and the infinite cr. HDMI HDR. The future will never be the same after what i saw there.Insane.

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Anyone else in favor of opening a 5000ES owners thread? Specific to Sony only updates? We can keep up with the latest firmware updates on the first page. Also info on other brands can be left to this thread... Up to you guys.


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post #943 of 2112 Old 06-17-2016, 03:41 AM
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Probably, or straight product posts about Epson and Barco in a threat titled SONY VPL-5000ES 4k LASER should be posted elsewhere...I know with the 5000 on severe back order, there's not much to talk about, but too many threads get taken over by off topic posts beyond appropriate, initial comparison talk.
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looks G-Rex like it is 7-8feet wide
I can start a thread of possible projector alternatives to the sony if you find candid PQ discussion offensive... But I am also a client for this product so what is wrong with objectivity.

You need to understand that the thread brings potential buyers that may want to br armed with ALL the knowledge. Thusfar I have stated that the sony looks the best of all blu-lasers spercifically DPI 3 chip, NEC 3 chip, Christie 3 chip and Barco 3 chip and Single chip. So that should be of comfort, that being said if something is clearly better for a small delta wouldn't those about to pull the trigger be appreciative of the heads up? Or is the thread only supposed to ignore any negatives and conentrate on the oohs and aahs, think about that.

If the epson doesnt pass muster why start a thread for it? If it does I will.

I agree there is no need to discuss Barco further in this thread.
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Sure but coming from the person selling the brands just looks like a constant infomercial from 2am. Every week it seems we get a new model coming that is gushed over. No offense but Epson would be the last brand I would ever buy. And you letting us know about a conference call coming up is not needed in a Sony thread. If I wanted info on other brands I would not come to a Sony thread.

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post #946 of 2112 Old 06-17-2016, 05:02 AM
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Oh and pictures of engineers from another company is definitely not needed...


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I dont talk about the brands i sell i talk about the brands I like, then I go get the dealership. After the fact. Like I did the show with Barco and I am not saying ANYTHING good about all and every one of their blu lasers. That alone should show you that integrity comes before commerce with me. That being said I have not been denied any dealership I wanted to pursue in 10 years except ethereal cables. Because of my unique track record of course .

I don't sell christie but a Dolby Vision client has me cozing up to the 1,000,000-1 idea. I like Barco cinema Products for their color, specially on the 6p, yes. But i have despised epson all my life and went into the demo kicking and screaming, their still slides in 4k looked amazing. That is all, I am investigating further on La Salle's behalf.

I doubt they can handle motion or do single projector 3D, so probably it wont pan out. Look i am the only ht guy given a 6 million dollar budget to not leave any stone unturned for 4 cinemas during the immersion cinema formative years,not bragging, I am a humble person but I take this privileged perspective's future impacts to our beloved hobby very very seriously, so I always speak the truth; be less defensive about it, if you learn something ocassionally great if not, don't mind me I think we agree on many more things than we disagree. Let me nit pick, its what I live for.

On the other hand it is definetely not cool to buy a product and have such pride of ownership that one becomes delusional that the product is the all end be all. And to childlishly get offended at the mere suggestion of objectivst analysis. Such inmaturity is what should be left out of these threads.As IT IS OFFENSIVE to civilisation.

peace out, I am zealously pursuing a reality recreation immersion agenda and have foregone relationships and every other distractions just to concentrate on constantly raising the bar, if that means turning on a dime on vendors due to competitive advancements, I warn every vendor up front that may be the case. Some trivia, in 1987 before cedia sony started the consumer Instegrated systems division with me being the ginea pig dealer nimber 0000001.

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Oh and pictures of engineers from another company is definitely not needed...

Sometimes the posts are adressed to a single forum member of the thread, like to Murat a sony client I have fiduciary responsibility for pushing the 5000's pq envelope, or in case of those guys specifically to wolfgang who knows them,OK, entendido?
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post #949 of 2112 Old 06-17-2016, 06:06 AM
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I was very impressed with The Finals game last night. I actually found myself following the ball on a long three. Motion is definitely terrific. Same with checking out the Hockey playoffs (recorded). I can make out the puck easily wherever it is at. It's almost as if the game is slowed down. I took some pics (one you can see myself and the Wife against the glass behind the goalie) and will post some in my part 2. Same for football and basketball pics. We've only touched the movie surface up to this point so I spent some time going over sports using DirecTV. If people weren't so critical of screen shots from an iPhone I would drop some here... Lol


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looks G-Rex like it is 7-8feet wide.
Thanks for posting. That is a very small screen for such a bright projector.
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And you letting us know about a conference call coming up is not needed in a Sony thread..
This was another example of narrowcasting within a relevant thread to people like LaSalle that are looking for sony alternatives, specially since there are slim pickings nowadays. If it looks like it has promise i will start a thread on it, if not i'll stop here.
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Ah those were the days 7" specs saying 7 meters, lol. Yup I am back, they reset my password.
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post #953 of 2112 Old 06-17-2016, 08:07 AM
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This was another example of narrowcasting within a relevant thread to people like LaSalle that are looking for sony alternatives, specially since there are slim pickings nowadays. If it looks like it has promise i will start a thread on it, if not i'll stop here.
Fair enough.

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post #954 of 2112 Old 06-17-2016, 01:20 PM - Thread Starter
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For all the discussion on what a thread is or is not, I am the one who started this thread. I currently have the Sony 5000, and really enjoy it. Is it perfect, not by a long shot, but does it do an incredible job of lighting up a large screen while maintaining a decent amount of contrast, yes. It does a lot of things extremely well, but I agree with Peter, I will never be blinded by my purchase to the point I don't want to see or hear about possible alternatives. I do believe those topics can be extremely relevant.

I have been through more projectors than I want to count. In the beginning, mostly lower end sub $3K units. But then 1080P hit the market, and I bought a Sony VW100, the first affordable $10K 1080P, as the qualia was to rich for my blood back then. I remember thinking, nothing will ever touch this VW100, but then next year there was a VW50 at half the price. By this point, I found myself wanting to be submerged in a larger and larger image, where consumer grade projectors no longer would make the cut.

I then looked at a DPI D-Vision single chip DLP. I loved the brightness, but learned extremely quickly I despised single chip, color wheel based displays... All I see are rainbows, and all I end up with is a headache. So at that point there was only one place left to go, 3 chip DLP. So then I bought a Titan Reference 1080P, and then later a Titan Reference 1080P 3D. By this point I was 3D crazed, and needed more and more light output. So following all of Peter's work for years, I began to explore the world of D-cinema. I was blown away and had to have one. Eventually I bit the bullet and bought a Barco DP4K-23B, 4K projector, and eventually I bought a second Barco, the Barco DP4K-P (Gold Standard) unit for another house. I loved the units, but I found myself constantly being pulled out of the movie, by low contrast. It got the point, I didn't want to watch any sort of dark movies on either unit. Now mine were modified for right at 3,300:1 contrast, as this was before Alan figured out a way to push that envelope up to the 9000:1 range, but that was also restricted to a long throw lens, which I could not use.

Then I hear about the DPI Insight 4K coming out, and set put with a pre-order of it which ended up being delayed for over a year! At that point the Sony was introduced, and at Cedia I can look at both it and the Insight and compare each unit. The Sony was the clear winner, the DPI Insight laser was bright, and needed to be modded to try to increase contrast, it only was capable of Rec709, and it didn't have HDR, or even a 4K HDMI input (yet). Oh, and the Sony was a fraction of the price! Keep in mind, the DPI Insight still can't except a 4K HDMI source, to my knowledge.

I immediately ordered the Sony unit at Cedia, and set in to motion, re-wroking both of my theaters to have the Barco units removed and the Sony units installed. One advantage buying D-cinema projectors offers that no consumer projector does, is that it maintains value. I got 60% of my money back on the 23B and almost 90% of my money back on the P. That is incredible for units that were 5 years and 2 years old.

The Sony is quiet, its compact, it has a depth and a punch to the image that I love, but again there are trade offs. There is no doubt the Barco D-cinema units had better uniformity. The Sony also has considerably more banding than the Barco units did as well, but I am in hopes this is something Sony will resolve with a software update. I have been told, that should be the case, but the update keeps getting pushed further and further back.

Bottom line, I know the Sony won't be my last projector, it won't be the next to the last projector, I hope to live at least another 50 years, and I'm sure over the next 50 years I will have at minimum another 10 projectors. My quest for the best image will always continue, but there are limits to my quest as well. While a Dolby Cinema projector could probably keep me satisfied for the next 10 years, I can't afford a 7 figure projector. Even the new Christie 1m:1 units without Dolby are going to be outrageous, guessing $250-400K.

So while I love to hear about the very best projector on the market, I also at this point in time, can't spend 1/4- 1/2 mil on a projector, when I believe the Sony offers me a considerable amount of performance for my money. I have absolutely love going back through my blu-ray collection and re-watching old 65mm titles just as much as I do watching new reference quality blu-rays or even UHD content.

I love Peter's passion, and I also enjoy following his quest for the pinnace of HT, even if I can't ever afford it, but I do know all of that million dollar technology will one day be in the sub $100K arena, and Ill be ready to play. I agree 100% with Art's previous comments. I live for HT, and its my one true hobby and passion, but at the end of the day, I want to sit down and watch a 2 hour movie, that makes me forget about all my problems or stresses of the day. Its my own personal therapy.

The Sony is just another place holder. It wasn't the first, and it certainly wont be the last, but for now its doing a great job!
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post #955 of 2112 Old 06-17-2016, 01:40 PM
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I'll give you that- you started this thread but still those looking for key info on the 5000 don't want to see press releases and images of engineers and infomercials about other brands. Plain and simple. So either we start a comparison thread or we start an actual owner's thread. And Ken and I tried your banding scene you gave us over and over and we both could not see what you described. At least not to the degree you mentioned.

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post #956 of 2112 Old 06-17-2016, 01:49 PM - Thread Starter
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I'll give you that- you started this thread but still those looking for key info on the 5000 don't want to see press releases and images of engineers and infomercials about other brands. Plain and simple. So either we start a comparison thread or we start an actual owner's thread. And Ken and I tried your banding scene you gave us over and over and we both could not see what you described. At least not to the degree you mentioned.
I agree with some of the infomercial stuff, and I don't like the over exaggerated "Soft" comments, but talking about the positives and negatives of the Sony unit in relation to other technologies is relevant. As an owner of the Sony, if there is anything remotely close to it that I should compare it too, Im all in. But comparing the Sony to something 10 times price is pointless.

I have seen the exact same banding on 4 Sony 5000 units now. Its definitely a problem! Im not saying it makes the image unwatchable by any means, but it is certainly there, and can be very distracting.
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post #957 of 2112 Old 06-17-2016, 01:55 PM
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Do you have any actual movie scenes where you see the banding?

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post #958 of 2112 Old 06-17-2016, 02:07 PM
 
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I agree with some of the infomercial stuff, and I don't like the over exaggerated "Soft" comments, but talking about the positives and negatives of the Sony unit in relation to other technologies is relevant. As an owner of the Sony, if there is anything remotely close to it that I should compare it too, Im all in. But comparing the Sony to something 10 times price is pointless.

I have seen the exact same banding on 4 Sony 5000 units now. Its definitely a problem! Im not saying it makes the image unwatchable by any means, but it is certainly there, and can be very distracting.
The only infomercial for those lucky to be around in 50 or even 15 years, because this diabetes and IBS pain is a constant pia so...

The only infomercial is for my vision for mid century legacy system, one that started when I saw the Jetsons in 1967, give me the courtesy to accept it along with the other goodness that I may bring to the table.

The #sonysosoft hashtag has been rescinded officially forthright since this last viewing after comparing it to other HIGHLY TOUTED competitive blu options that are even softer and pathetic to dare bear the venerable name brand, so in hindsight was not so soft after all it improved tremendously since CES. The Price of the christie though, which was music to my ears Thrusday to find out a bargain let's say you overshot by 11-12% on the low number. And since it is a 2 piece design half of it is in the rack.

As long as I am responsible for delivering top performance for this projector in some of my installs I have the same right as everyone else to brainstorm relevant issues. Why don't you post on wolfgang's test report your findings and firmware upgrades? I gave Wolfgang my word there that I would not derail.

Happy watchiung folks!

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post #959 of 2112 Old 06-17-2016, 02:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Do you have any actual movie scenes where you see the banding?
Yes. I will look tonight or tomorrow morning for the movies and timestamps where I have noticed it the most and PM those to you.

I know we watched Mr. Holmes the other night and there were tons of locations in that movie where there was clear banding / posterization, which was not visible on any other displays or projectors in my house.
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post #960 of 2112 Old 06-17-2016, 02:13 PM - Thread Starter
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The Price of the christie, which was music to my ears Thrusday to find out a bargain let's say you overshot by 11-12%.
This is good news to hear and hopefully thats based off the lower end of the scale I quoted. This is the technology that Im most excited to see become more affordable. I have been waiting, just like you, a long time for DLP to see some major advancements.

Now if it will drop say 50% more Ill be able to act!
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