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Game Changing Perceptual Deltas and new discoveries impacting HT OLED thread.

3K views 70 replies 11 participants last post by  donaldk 
#1 · (Edited)
Got the LG 65 flat and it is indeed a game changer, wish it had a little more dynamic range but it is indeed the near perfect display, this technology will be creeping up in size at a scary pace, so aside form HDR 6P laser a 77" oled's many new visual qualities trumps 110-130" projection by a long long shot.

I'll post more thoughts later, but using the sony 4k server and the 4K uopscale darbee (yes Darbee helps 3D) oppo103 (ISO server) fed with the comcast x-1 signal as router(OLED comes with only 3 hdmi's) and the 4kpc ( hopefully ill get my nvidia 9800 workstation back up from the massive hack attacks....) This is a dream display. You can tune for night cave mode and also for looking at the atlantic from atop a penthouse with all glass windows mode.

Reflection? What reflections! this is an amazing display.

I'l be doing auro/dts-x and auro in 2016 but for now a pair of Dynaudio BM monitors are sideways against the wall with the lg up against it. What prompted the first EUREKA MOMENT. the second is the IMMERSIVE video modes(aka 3D):D.

I am renaming the technology now that it has found itself as a necessary cog to immersive cinema otherwise go back to a mono speaker ttoo as your brain will be tortured by immersive audio coupled with 2d video. Non negotiable..

I had tried this with an lcd and it sounded freaking horrible, yet like Marie Curie and Pasteur I have made an accidental discovery of serious benefits to future society.:D

The screen is partially acoustically transparent. I will think through the opportunities and when Walter is back in the lab we will measure proper, but what a crazy thing to discover.

It works a lot like the SA sound advance invisible speakers, I can see certain frequencies using FEONIC transducers hell I am already planning on 8 channels behind the screen to complement a 24 channel immersive system.HEHE

More later!!!

Enjoy your turkey dinners... while I type 2 feet away from 65 monitor listening to 50-60's xmas music coming right through the screen.:D


Folks this is going to change the way we engineer our home cinemas, as usual you heard this discovery first from me.:D
 
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#2 · (Edited)
Good news Peter, let us know if you find any issues. There have been some reports on banding issues, and near black uniformity issues, and elevated blacks when driving peak whites on these panels, but in the latest shoot-out it came up trumps, beating the ZT60 plasma on absolute blacks, the plasma performing slightly better on near black unformity. But overall it beat the plasma according to all. New reference level.

I rightly titled another thread: Hail to the new King!

If you find any issues, I am sure you won't rest till you find a way to calibrate around them.

On my simple laptopscreen I can barely distinguish between the black background and the black in the picture I took of this demo LG HDR OLED (I was told its peakbrightness was 700 nits) at IBC last September. IBC: LG OLED SMPTE 2084 (HDR) and BT.2020 (WCG) satellite broadcast


The color mapping of regular content to the OLED display's is looking well? As you mention Darbee, it had a box years ago that included the EE color re-mapping technology, we know here from the AVS distributed Chi Lin LED projector, perhaps something to consider experimenting with: http://www.displaydaily.com/display-daily/15543-ee-llc-a-million-pcs-and-nobody-knows-its-name.
 
#3 ·
If they can do atleast a 10' wide scope aspect ratio version with a VERY home theater friendly (dark room viewing) coating on the screen then I'm happy to ditch projection.

Peter, what do think about this panels motion resolution and motion performance in general? Is it at least as good as DLP?
 
#4 · (Edited)
That would be interesting indeed I predict something along these lines come ces where the 77 is getting a best display at CES 2015 award; I hope it is not for it's gimmicky flat to curved screen screen bending, why pay a good chunk of the 32k for that, so I do hope they stick to flat, maybe it was structural thing why they went to curve but that has been licked. I pulled forward the top of the unit to insert a 1x1 under the plat to align on axis the panel to my eyes for polarization perfection, the flat panel did not bend, time to ditch those silly curved OLED screens LG. Now don't stop at 77" keep on enlarging these fvc3rs.:D

The motion resolution is phenomenal,analog like image reminds me of crt but on steroids , BTU -1886 is the color space I am enjoying using in the deep color setting ( and boy TOMORROWLAND looked nearly as good as in Dolby Cinema- to this date i state that 75% endorphin payload of HDR is WCG -that is why I am a 6p superfreak) is providing new life to all my blue rays(understatement), it is like night and day and subjectively way better than P3.

I am going to state it right (not sure what color triangle this thing hits on deep color using the sony server and yes the oppo!) now: if it looks better than P3, I say screw the colorists putative intentions, more real than real is more than OK by me.

Imagine your entire library re-mastered in WCG that is what I am looking at, even really old material two mules for sister sarah, flash gordon, soon this will be the end of sub 6P/led projection, specially those hoping to get p3 out of a blu laser (right :rolleyes:-hold your breath-yuck). That will be the day. You can't just settle for 70% gamut when deep color processing is so advanced. Who knew? That was also epiphany today. It Makes Tomorrowland best cinematography Oscar material! In fact I am going to watch it again and again! :D The only thing a movie theater can throw at this is 6p laser and hdr,Otherwise this is superior technology (if you engage the deep color that is).

Prepare to relearn the art of displaying movies in the most meaningful way yet.

and this postulate is going to be found VERY TRUE:OLED trumps projection (including xenon dci) at 1.5x its image width,due to this unspared newly found treasure trove of PQ enhancements.

Now the work starts on the ditching of the perforated screen.

Tactile transducers look promising but I am going to look first intio a concept Roger Quested has several years experience with detached over under cabinets, these have to be bi amped for time alignment and coherency but he swears by it. I am going to give that a try instead of the Alcons for my diminutive field lab.As we are not unhappily stuck in Ft Lauderdale for the greater part of 2016 due to a couple of very involving engagements.

I really did not expect to be able to see a 400% improvement on Blu ray, can't wait to put the oppo deep color against my 9800TI htpc. The 2d to 3d conversion is 75-85% as good as teranex no occlusion errors just some side of the face contouring errors but not as prominent like Class of the titans 3d coversion. What looks crazy is the fantastic underwater sony 4k videos converted to 3d, the oppo deep color is lost when you use the lg 2d/3d conversion,so screw that (not going to throw away the 400% improvement for 3d) but in the future.....we need a deep color teranex 4k 3d with buffer:cool:

This must be the most amazing anti-refletive coating known to man, where did LG borrow this tech from ? UHD SPY SATELLITES?:D

It works great with lights on and all windows and sliding doors open, and because the back of the screen is radiussed and white instead of charcoal you can bounce an led light at the middle back of it and you have a beautiful Joe Kane 1989 a Video Standard suggested peripheral light, also the settings have ample range to preset for pitch black. I use cinema, expert 1 and 2 for those 3 variants, need to see what happens in 3d mode if I have another set of 3 presets. Which would be optimal. Bestest computer monitor everrr!!!

This has been the very most meaningful THANKSGIVING in my entire life, I kid you not. Regardlesss how good these things may look to you at Best Buy, you ain't seen nothing yet until you exploit WCG a brave new and exciting world!
 
#8 · (Edited)
Huh it was showing HDR at CEDIA, that was the 9500 launched before that, so you are saying it doesn't support HDR yet? Not even using the built-in mediaplayer playing hdr content from an usb stick? At Cedia it was using both hdmi and usb for HDR.

LG claims it does HDR as is in the pre-CEDIA announcement of the new range and prices available:

EF9500 Series: Flat OLED 4K Ultra HD TVs
The world's first HDR-capable OLED TVs allow consumers to display high dynamic range (HDR) content from both streaming content partners and external source devices.
CEDIA: LG USA launches new OLED TVs, slashes prices

So, what's happening here?
 
#10 · (Edited)
The real problem with this tv is that I had to reoder every classic must have blu-ray I never thought I would be watching again. Thank god for the Black Friday sales...

Some studio exec demi-god must be smiling right now.

From Chrisses website:

Quantum Dots (QD) are one of the topics for display technology that rival the excitement over OLED technology by offering an alternative path to providing a better image. In general, I am not saying that all QD displays are better than any other display technology, but they promise to create a path to a wider colour gamut compared to standard LED-backlit LCDs. OLEDs on the other hand do have some material constraints when it comes to colour coordinates of the primaries.

The recent trends in higher quality imagery are higher resolution, higher contrast ratios, extended colour gamut and faster refresh rates. LCD and OLED technology are pretty much able to address all these areas with existing technologies to varying degrees.

One of the differences is in the wide colour gamut area; LCD can deploy QD-based solutions while OLED has to rely on emitter materials. In other words QD-based backlights need different quantum dots while OLED needs material development. My money would be on QD in this competition for sure. There is one caveat, however, that we have to keep in mind. QD solutions rely on a blue LED emitter that provides all light in high efficiency at the perfect colour location for the blue primary. Red and green are derived from that blue base at any wavelength or even mixture of wavelengths you desire. So in reality, QD also has to rely on a certain amount of material development in the form of the availability of a high efficiency blue LED emitter.

To be clear, a wider colour gamut does not necessarily translate into a better image for the consumer. Source content needs to contain and communicate the artistically desired colour information to the display, where it has to be translated into accurate colours. That might start a debate on how the content is mastered and how the display handles colours that are inside or outside of the display’s colour gamut. Today, most wide colour gamut content is mastered based on the P3 colour gamut. We have to see how this develops as displays arrive that are able to display an even wider colour gamut.

In other areas, like enhanced contrast and HDR imagery, I believe that OLED displays do have an inherent advantage in that LCD-based technology requires dimmable backlights to create contrast ratios capable of showing high dynamic range (HDR) imagery. As HDR is still in the state of definition and what it means for the display industry is not clear, it has to be seen if LCD with QD can actually produce HDR displays*.

From a pure technology standpoint, I would argue that QD has an advantage in producing better colour imagery and OLED has an advantage in producing high dynamic range imagery. Both are important in the discussing the ‘better pixel’ space going forward. Depending on your personal image preference and what challenges you believe are easier to overcome you may or may not agree with my simple assessment. But this is not the argument I am trying to make here.
 
#27 ·
The recent trends in higher quality imagery are higher resolution, higher contrast ratios ...
I'm glad people are getting to see these high contrast ratios with their own eyes. Going back a decade or more I and a small number of others were telling people how high on/off CR was relevant, while in this industry people were being taught in certain classes and discussions that it didn't matter. My view is that some of these industry experts could quote things from the scientific literature and claim they were using science, but they didn't understand that they were adding their own incorrect assumptions and applying the science incorrectly. I think this continues to this day with INFOCOMM and is one reason I don't have a lot of faith in that organization. I figure some day they will do some proper testing and finally get it, but will have already been a decade or more behind the curve.

The magic of OLED is mostly in the native on/off CR (which many experts have rejected) combined with sufficient ANSI CR. ANSI CR matters, but we don't need multiple thousands to 1 ANSI CR because our eyes abilities to differentiate black from dark grey diminish significantly when there is that much light in the images.

Our eyes themselves have some washout from the bright parts of the images to the dark parts. When images get dimmer so does the washout in our eyes and our ability to see that black is instead dark grey increases. Thus the noticeability of low on/off CR.

A decade ago I was trying to explain why this stuff mattered and was looking forward to people being able to see some of these things for themselves, like the Brightside (now Dolby) local dimming displays. I am glad we are now at that point.

Hopefully people understand why some of us care so much about allowing the artists to paint their images on black instead of restricting them to painting on gray, which is what much of this ongoing discussion about on/off CR and CR in general has really been about.

--Darin
 
#11 ·
LG Display, the world’s leading innovator of display technologies, announced today that it will invest KRW1.84 trillion to begin building a new panel plant in Paju, Gyeonggi Province, Korea, with production expected to commence in the first half of 2018.

LG displayThe company decided on the new plant, known as P10, because of anticipated demand for OLED panels over the next several years. The P10 plant will mainly produce both large-size OLED TV panels and flexible OLED panels for smartwatches and automotive displays.

The KRW1.84 trillion investment covers the construction of the P10 building, the foundations for the clean rooms and infrastructure for water and power supplies and will begin this year. The total investment in the P10 plant is expected to reach more than KRW10 trillion, and with LG Display gradually expanding the scale of the production line based on customer demand and market conditions.

The completed plant will cover an area of 382m x 265m, which is equivalent in size to 14 football fields, and will be 100 meters high. Plans call mostly for the installation of large size OLED lines that will be 9th generation or above along with flexible OLED lines at the new plant. The first production line is scheduled to start mass production in the first half of 2018.

The company is expecting the lines will produce OLED in every product segment, including ultra large-size products as well as future products such as flexible and transparent displays. Dr. Sang Beom Han, CEO and President of LG Display said, “LG Display’s investment in P10 Plant is a historical investment for the industry since it will not only help expand the OLED market but also accelerate the development of future display technologies. With the active support of the Korean government, we believe the P10 plant will become the center of the global OLED industry.”

IHS, the market research firm, forecasts the global OLED panel market will grow to $29.1 billion in 2022 from $8.7 billion in 2014.

TV manufacturers in Korea, China and Japan have already launched OLED TV models and more TV manufacturers in Japan and Europe are expected to adopt OLED TVs in the near future. Demand for flexible OLED panels in the smartwatch and automotive display sectors is also rising because they offer better design flexibility than LCD panels.

LG Display announced in August that it would invest more than KRW10 trillion in expanding production of large-size OLED panels, flexible OLED panels and premium LCDs by 2018. The company has already announced it will invest KRW1.05 trillion in a 6th generation flexible OLED production line in Gumi, Gyeongsangbuk Province. The 6th- generation production line will produce 7,500 sheets per month and is expected to start mass production in the first half of 2017.


2014 2015 2016 2017 2018 2019 2020 2021 2022
8,736,090 13,019,587 14,551,829 16,848,996 19,621,122 22,541,623 25,479,724 27,508,481 29,129,251


NEWS FLASH: Out of the blue this morning the remote control for the oled started controlling the sony 4k server,along with the Oppo darbee server (that was working) something that did not work earlier, LG is rapidly becoming my # 1 Electronics manufacturer. Now they are going to build large flexible oleds oh my.
 
#12 ·
So the challenges for us are to come up with the best immersive audio built around this large flat or curved in certain floor to ceiling apps-this while making the sound nearly indistinguishable from that of a perforated projection screen.

I did find a way to boost the chroma on 3D while in wcg , simply create a memory in position 3 of the oppo, while positions 1 and 2 are mostly flat on position 3 you can crank up the detail and edge enhancement in addition to the color and the darbee as the net effect after depolarization is quite good.
 
#13 · (Edited)
Peter the flexible oleds are small ones for smart watches automotive and wearables, so don't get your hopes up for a reliable meters wide roll up OLED display. That will take years and years. But rigids are coming in volume in 2017/8 according to this, €8 billion plant announcement.

Super duper 'soundbar' with Alcons ghostchannels, Peter let you creative brain run wild:cool:.
 
#14 ·
I agree, OLED provides the most pleasing images. I'm certain one day we'll see OLED come custom ordered by size, delivered rolled up in a tube for the consumer. Unroll it and clip it into a frame. An cable attachment to an external box for source connection and power. Want a 140" OLED? Custom made. Done. I'd like to see that one day. Completely possible. Erode the FP market to nothing. Superior picture all around.


Some of the 65" OLED displays are HDR updatable with streaming content only. Not HDMI. The newest one will be with HDMI for new UHD BD players.


One limitation of all OLEDs and so far and the Samsung 4K LCDs (all series, including their top of the line JS model), and FWIW the Vizio M-series (because I tested it) is that despite the deep colour on/off activation, it doesn't accept deep colour with a 4K signal.


Using the DVDO AVLab 4K test pattern generator, I've been testing 4K sets for their input capability on all HDMI inputs.


None of the 4K TVs I've tested thus far will accept 2160/24/25/30p 4:2:2/4:4:4 at 10 bit on their HDCP 2.2 inputs. They will accept those signals at 8 bit only. So that means once UHD Blu-ray comes around, we'll need to send the 10 bit video out at 8 bit from the player.


Strangely, on the Vizio M65-C1 4K TV, both of its non-compliant HDCP 2.2 inputs accepted 10 bit at any of the said frame rates/colour spaces at 2160p. But that's a useless input for any UHD signal that requires HDCP 2.2.


Also, another oddity is that on the inputs that accept 4K @ 60Hz 4:2:0 (all inputs on the 4K 55" OLED and Samsung S UHD and one designated input on the Vizio) it displays the video at half horizontal resolution rather than full. So, rather than being 3840x2160/60p, it actually displays it as 1920x2160/60p. Two of the manufacturers are looking into this for me. One has confirmed they are seeing the same thing as me and are suggesting an EDID issue. It appears to be widespread among these three manufacturers. It likely is happening on all of them and its possible the manufacturers have no idea and assumed it would work...or maybe because I've discovered it I'm causing the issue to be looked at before too many others start putting the manufacturers to the test on it. :D
 
#15 · (Edited)
I agree, OLED provides the most pleasing images. I'm certain one day we'll see OLED come custom ordered by size, delivered rolled up in a tube for the consumer. Unroll it and clip it into a frame. An cable attachment to an external box for source connection and power. Want a 140" OLED? Custom made. Done. I'd like to see that one day. Completely possible. Erode the FP market to nothing. Superior picture all around.
I am getting in on the ground floor on this one, will come to their Top Large screen development manager at CES brandishing this month's WIDESCREENREVIEW cedia edition to make them include my input into their product planning, that way we do not get wasted B&O like features like the ridiculous bendable screen. And address 18 speaker Immersive audio in a non perfed screen world. I can see a whole new range of high performance immersive cinemas superior to everything up to a 6P MINI-PLF 34 speaker setup being done this way in 2 years, just in time for all the latest ULTRA LUX Miami Condo Projects from my patrons.So with the latest impeccable immersive know how credentials and the orders in hand I intend to exert a judicious hi-end fiduciary guidance to help keep the development honed-in and timely.

Also please refrain henceforth from even mentioning:) the word LCD in this thread:), quantum dots and all, the gag reflex from seeing the 105 vizio in comparison to this comes to mind.

LCD to me is an ignorants:) choice. Regardless of what fancy tech.

For projection it is very simple: 6p laser or high brightness led for HDR-WCG, and then there is OLED. It is indeed a simple world.
 
#20 ·
I can tell you that main 10 profile is 10 bit 4:2:0, but for instance the ViXS set-top-box chipset platform and the vendor commissioned set-top-boxes can upscale it to 4:2:2 via HDMI. Not sure if that would be default or user selectable in set-up.

Remarkably the CES announcements and some other US/North America releases via PRNewswire came from LG Electronics Canada, is Canada home to the North America division or? Albert Lee the listed spokesperson wouldn't comment on the 77" awarded the CES 2016 Innovations Award in Display category, beyond the very limited info in the release on its many awards for CES. Not even basic info like model number. The one launched at CES 2015 hasn't arrived yet, so I presume it is an updated version of the bending 9900/990, launched at CES 2015. 30K euro is what I see at the local flatpanel webshops pre-lististing it. Compared to 25K for the 2014 77".
 
#23 · (Edited)
Only the very best projectors like the dpi dual led and the barco 6p with contrast mod I consider a better image.I argue that if you are looking at anything 1.5 times the size of the maximum size oled available then the smaller oled wins in emotional impact and precision, that bodes well fro regular projection for about 2 years. With the 65"Oled projection has some life left, but here comes 77" and i will find out soon what comes after that. My opinion?/prediction.:cool:
 
#24 ·
Peter perhaps there could be a higher end solution from Alcons or Quest that uses some of the design ideas from the highly reviewed, but exponentially cheaper Goldenear Invisa 7000 speakers with the folded ribbon tweeters that have received critical praise for being able to be installed as LCR speakers in the ceiling (9ft ceiling I believe was suggested) but throwing a soundstage that is similar to towers on front of a screen. Would be nice to see the Alcons ribbon in something like that! Not entirely sure how they would make that work in a smallish coaxial type angled speaker, but that is why they get paid to design speakers! Just a random thought. I am wondering if a high end / highly dynamic / realistic system can be installed using such an approach.
 
#34 ·
Peter, how close will the Barco unit you're working with come to this quality of image (or does it already)?

This display is beyond stunning, especially the colors. Reds are unbelievably good (not overblown but very rich looking) and it handily beats my 4k eizo monitor - while being cheaper too!
 
#35 · (Edited)
Peter, how close will the Barco unit you're working with come to this quality of image (or does it already)?
Peter can of course answer, but I'll say that for bright scenes it is largely there, but for dark scenes the OLED with the zero black floor or close to it has a big advantage (basically, significantly higher on/off CR that is native on/off CR). A single white pixel on an all black background can have huge CR on an OLED and even very dark grays can have a lot of intra-image CR with black.

Years ago when we were having a discussion about this Peter posted a picture of a predator laying on a table at the beginning of I believe AVP: Alien vs Predator that was a pretty good example of where a great black floor is a nice thing, but I'm not sure where that is now. I'm looking forward to trying some things like this with the OLED I'll be getting soon.

--Darin
 
#36 ·
Thanks Darin. Which Oled display are you getting? Also, what type of meter would be needed to measure the on/off of these displays? I have no true 4K sources at the moment but speaking of AvP I watched portions of Alien and Pandorum through an Oppo and the images are stunning. I'm going to try some games on the weekend.

I sit in front of large monitors all day and have a bias towards an lcd/digital image compared to say lcos/sxrd which are more film like. This tv comes close in retaining some of that lcd sharpness. It makes my Lumis (granted its old) pretty much unwatchable.
 
#37 · (Edited)
Thanks Darin. Which Oled display are you getting?
I decided to dip my toes in with one of the cheapest ones. The 1080p non-HDR 9100. I would like to get the 55EF9500 with HDR, but figure I'll give this one a shot and then maybe get a nicer one after they've hopefully worked through some issues like the vignetting near black and maybe added more user control when displaying HDR material.
Also, what type of meter would be needed to measure the on/off of these displays?
I don't know of any that could do it for these. Projectors are easier because you can measure close to the projector and the black is the hard one to measure. If the blacks go so low that a human can't see any light then I would just call that visually infinite. If a human can see light and the meter can't, then it just tells us it is beyond the capability of the meter.
It makes my Lumis (granted its old) pretty much unwatchable.
Interesting. Is it just because of the black? That projector has been one of the better ones for projectors, especially for DLPs, as far as on/off CR. Did you watch the Lumis with the dynamic iris enabled? Sounds like the Barco could get into the Lumis range and maybe a little higher for native on/off CR by cranking an iris down, but I don't think the Barco has a dynamic iris option.

I've mentioned to some people before that as far as contrast ratio from the screen a projector can be thought of as 3 elements. One is a projector and room that can do perfect blacks. No raised black floor or reflections. The next element is a guy at the back of the room pointing a light at your screen. That represents the black floor indicated by the on/off CR. The next is a guy holding a mirror. That represents the extra washout effect that is dependent on how bright the images are, where ANSI CR is with a bright image where one guy is shining his light and the other guy is holding his mirror up.

To me arguing that on/off CR doesn't matter is a little bit like arguing that it is okay for the guy to be shining his light at your screen no matter what you are watching, even though in reality people would likely be furious if somebody was actually doing that. It isn't a guy, but the projector is doing that instead and it is up to the engineers to figure out how to turn down the light the proverbial "guy" is holding.

With OLED it is like the guy with the light either has it off or very dim and the guy with the mirror only has a little mirror (high on/off CR and high ANSI CR).

Not sure if you remember CRTs, but those were like the guy with the light has it off or very dim, but the guy with the mirror has a large mirror (high on/off CR and low ANSI CR).

I would say the Lumis is like the guy with the light has a medium light, but the guy with the mirror has a reasonably small mirror (medium on/off CR and really nice ANSI CR for a projector, but not ANSI CR like a flat screen).

--Darin
 
#40 ·
Darin I will respond to your posts but please give me time as it will be 2 pages long and I am swamped and still recovering from dual pc's hack, for now lets just say im raising my blacks ever so slightly above absolute black to get the picture to look closer to 6p, there are benefits...LOL BUT finally we are getting closer.

I had to look for a dvd hdmi adapter yesterday at best buy they were showing quantum dots Samsung, barf bag please the screen coating looks like that non reflective scotch tape we have laying around the house the lg's oled is just a dream.
 
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