Official Atmos Width Channel Exploiting Thread - Page 5 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 53Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #121 of 179 Old 02-01-2017, 04:55 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
maikeldepotter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 1,322
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1039 Post(s)
Liked: 296
Let's call it SWATMOS

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
First of all, as of today my second AVR is Denon 6200 replacing the 5200, so i now have HDMI 2.0 on both, and also DTS:X on both. So DTS:X can be played up to 11.1.8 same as Atmos.
For DTS:X you can only get this 'technically correct', if its down-mix from 4 to 2 height channels does not involve any base layer speakers. Given what DTS:X does when Heights are replaced by Tops (which is: 'leaking' height info to the base layer speakers), I expect this not to work properly.

For ATMOS, on the other hand, it can work 'technically correct', as ATMOS still extracts ALL height info from the bed channels if only one overhead pair is activated.

Quote:
I do not play the second AVR's L/R!.
But if you want it 'technically correct' for ATMOS, you HAVE TO somehow use those 6200 L/R along with the 7200's L/R , as it contains part (in case of 'snap to front' even all) of the 'wides' sound, which you include in order to keep the correct balance in such summed-up system.

Quote:
So the 7200 plays LCR, Wides and surrounds (@110). So the levels between these are correct.
Yes, within that 7200 configuration all levels are balanced. But since you add a second configuration (LCR, surrounds and rears on the 6200), you need to have that balanced as well. While the Center channel of both configurations contains identical info, the L/R channels do not, and simply level adjusting one set of them does not create the correct overall balance.

Quote:
(However i could play the wides from the 6200 if i want, just a remote button away.)
Now that would be interesting alternative approach:
Activating Width speakers in both configurations (CONFIG-1: 5.1.4+wides, CONFIG-2: 7.1.2+wides), to subsequently:
(a) combine signals of both configurations to feed one set of Width speakers, or
(b) keep signals separate to feed an additional sets of Wides.

This last option would be my new favorite for using multiple AVRs/processors, as it enables a 13.1.4 lay-out:
- C + L/R at 25/30 degrees (from CONFIG-1 or CONFIG-2, as now they are identical)
- 'pure' Wides at 50 degrees (from CONFIG-2)
- Wides/Surrounds mix at 70 degrees (from CONFIG-1)
- 'pure' Surrounds at 90 degrees (from CONFIG-2)
- Surround/Rears mix at 120 degrees (from CONFIG-1)
- 'pure' Rears at 150 degrees (from CONFIG-2)

As this multiple AVR/processor set-up includes those 'Special Wides' or 'Surround-Wides' found in a Atmos 5.1.x+wides configuration, it could be referred to as SWATMOS, available in either 11.1.4 or 13.1.4.

Quote:
Yes, but technically this is neither a correct, perfect or easy solution. But it does expand the 3D sound bouble.
As explained above, I believe it CAN be made 'technically correct' for ATMOS. Even more so, it will probably deliver an experience closer to that of a mixing stage or cinema, as it creates arrayed bed channel surrounds (3 pair, one of which shared with rears) and rears (2 pairs, one of which shared with surrounds).

Quote:
If a Altitude doesn't sound better, i would be very, VERY surprised
The Altitude rules when it comes to spatial resolution. However, since it is still lacking the ability to array bed channel info over multiple surrounds or rears, SWATMOS may very well subjectively outperform the Altitude on enveloping sound in the base layer.

Quote:
Yes, and if the goal is 9.1.4, the second one could just be a 5.1.4 capable.
No! You need the second one to be at least 7.1.2 to generate the ('pure') Rears.

A good idea and understanding lies at the basis of every successful project.
maikeldepotter is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #122 of 179 Old 02-01-2017, 05:24 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Nalleh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Norway
Posts: 1,449
Mentioned: 48 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1201 Post(s)
Liked: 594
Quote:
Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post
For DTS:X you can only get this 'technically correct', if its down-mix from 4 to 2 height channels does not involve any base layer speakers. Given what DTS:X does when Heights are replaced by Tops (which is: 'leaking' height info to the base layer speakers), I expect this not to work properly.

For ATMOS, on the other hand, it can work 'technically correct', as ATMOS still extracts ALL height info from the bed channels if only one overhead pair is activated.
Well, my 7200 height sounds come from its heights, and the 6200 top sounds try to phantom from where the heights are, so it should still be good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post
But if you want it 'technically correct' for ATMOS, you HAVE TO somehow use those 6200 L/R along with the 7200's L/R , as it contains part (in case of 'snap to front' even all) of the 'wides' sound, which you include in order to keep the correct balance in such summed-up system.
Isn't the whole point of having wides to extract the wides sounds FROM the fronts? Why would i want to put the wides sounds BACK in the fronts?

Quote:
Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post
Yes, within that 7200 configuration all levels are balanced. But since you add a second configuration (LCR, surrounds and rears on the 6200), you need to have that balanced as well. While the Center channel of both configurations contains identical info, the L/R channels do not, and simply level adjusting one set of them does not create the correct overall balance.
Exactly, i do not want those fronts who have the wides content active. That would put the wide content back towards the front speakers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post
Now that would be interesting alternative approach:
Activating Width speakers in both configurations (CONFIG-1: 5.1.4+wides, CONFIG-2: 7.1.2+wides), to subsequently:
(a) combine signals of both configurations to feed one set of Width speakers, or
(b) keep signals separate to feed an additional sets of Wides.

This last option would be my new favorite for using multiple AVRs/processors, as it enables a 13.1.4 lay-out:
- C + L/R at 25/30 degrees (from CONFIG-1 or CONFIG-2, as now they are identical)
- 'pure' Wides at 50 degrees (from CONFIG-2)
- Wides/Surrounds mix at 70 degrees (from CONFIG-1)
- 'pure' Surrounds at 90 degrees (from CONFIG-2)
- Surround/Rears mix at 120 degrees (from CONFIG-1)
- 'pure' Rears at 150 degrees (from CONFIG-2)

As this multiple AVR/processor set-up includes those 'Special Wides' or 'Surround-Wides' found in a Atmos 5.1.x+wides configuration, it could be referred to as SWATMOS, available in either 11.1.4 or 13.1.4.



As explained above, I believe it CAN be made 'technically correct' for ATMOS. Even more so, it will probably deliver an experience closer to that of a mixing stage or cinema, as it creates arrayed bed channel surrounds (3 pair, one of which shared with rears) and rears (2 pairs, one of which shared with surrounds).
Come on man, i already have 27 speakers in my living room!
Here i thought i was crazy

Quote:
Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post
The Altitude rules when it comes to spatial resolution. However, since it is still lacking the ability to array bed channel info over multiple surrounds or rears, SWATMOS may very well subjectively outperform the Altitude on enveloping sound in the base layer.
Well, who knows ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post
No! You need the second one to be at least 7.1.2 to generate the ('pure') Rears.
Not if you just want to go from 7.1.4 to 9.1.4. This is probably the most correct expansion of Atmos: AVR1 playing 9.1.0 and AVR2 playing 0.0.4.

Triple Atmos Receivers
Atmos 13.1.8/DTS:X 9.1.8/AURO 3D 12.1

My setup:
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/29-wha...l#post41323201
Nalleh is online now  
post #123 of 179 Old 02-01-2017, 06:17 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
maikeldepotter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 1,322
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1039 Post(s)
Liked: 296
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
Well, my 7200 height sounds come from its heights, and the 6200 top sounds try to phantom from where the heights are, so it should still be good.
Yes, if you have 4 heights and 4 tops active, that balance will be OK.

Quote:
Isn't the whole point of having wides to extract the wides sounds FROM the fronts? Why would i want to put the wides sounds BACK in the fronts?
Quote:
Exactly, i do not want those fronts who have the wides content active. That would put the wide content back towards the front speakers.
I understand what you mean, but keeping 'wides sound' out of the fronts this way comes at a price: weakening the 'wides sound' and pulling it away from the intended location (closer to your 1st surrounds). So in the end its choosing between two goods/bads, and what sounds best to you...

Quote:
Come on man, i already have 27 speakers in my living room!
So what?

Quote:
Not if you just want to go from 7.1.4 to 9.1.4. This is probably the most correct expansion of Atmos: AVR1 playing 9.1.0 and AVR2 playing 0.0.4.
What I meant was that as if you do not include a 5.x.x+wides configuration, you will not get those 'Special Wides' (discrete 'wides sound' + arrayed surround bed channel). You will not have SWATMOS.

A good idea and understanding lies at the basis of every successful project.
maikeldepotter is online now  
 
post #124 of 179 Old 02-01-2017, 06:27 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Nalleh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Norway
Posts: 1,449
Mentioned: 48 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1201 Post(s)
Liked: 594
Quote:
Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post
Yes, if you have 4 heights and 4 tops active, that balance will be OK.


Yes i have, and i feel this contributes more to the 3D bouble than the wides actually. And i will lose these 4 of those overheads with your suggestion


I understand what you mean, but keeping 'wides sound' out of the fronts this way comes at a price: weakening the 'wides sound' and pulling it away from the intended location (closer to your 1st surrounds). So in the end its choosing between two goods/bads, and what sounds best to you...

I get it, but i do not see i that way, but hey kudos for beeing creative.

So what?

yeaa... i do now have my third retired 5200, so.. it could be done... LOL

What I meant was that as if you do not include a 5.x.x+wides configuration, you will not get those 'Special Wides' (discrete 'wides sound' + arrayed surround bed channel). You will not have SWATMOS.
Agreed, but some were talking about most correct way to expand.

My point of doing Dual AVR's was not just wides or just more overheads, but both

Triple Atmos Receivers
Atmos 13.1.8/DTS:X 9.1.8/AURO 3D 12.1

My setup:
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/29-wha...l#post41323201

Last edited by Nalleh; 02-01-2017 at 06:31 AM.
Nalleh is online now  
post #125 of 179 Old 02-01-2017, 06:36 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
maikeldepotter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 1,322
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1039 Post(s)
Liked: 296
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
Agreed, but some were talking about most correct way to expand.
Most correct way? Getting yourself an Altitude. No doubt about it.
thxman, appelz, sdrucker and 1 others like this.

A good idea and understanding lies at the basis of every successful project.
maikeldepotter is online now  
post #126 of 179 Old 02-02-2017, 02:53 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Nalleh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Norway
Posts: 1,449
Mentioned: 48 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1201 Post(s)
Liked: 594
@maikeldepotter : since we are exploring wides: do you know/think there are any difference in the content in the SURROUNDS( and i mean just the side surrounds) in the following options:

1. In a 7.1.4 Atmos setup.

2. In a 9.1.2 Atmos setup.

In other words will the front content( in a no wide setup) only spread to the wides(in a wides setup), or will it also affect/include content to the surrounds?

(Disregard a 5.1.4+ wides setup.)

Triple Atmos Receivers
Atmos 13.1.8/DTS:X 9.1.8/AURO 3D 12.1

My setup:
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/29-wha...l#post41323201

Last edited by Nalleh; 02-02-2017 at 02:56 AM.
Nalleh is online now  
post #127 of 179 Old 02-02-2017, 03:40 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
maikeldepotter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 1,322
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1039 Post(s)
Liked: 296
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
@maikeldepotter : since we are exploring wides: do you know/think there are any difference in the content in the SURROUNDS( and i mean just the side surrounds) in the following options:

1. In a 7.1.4 Atmos setup.

2. In a 9.1.2 Atmos setup.
Definitely. A sound object projected around the wides location, will in absence of wides be spread to front AND surround speaker to phantomize at that same location. Only if the re-recording mixer activated the 'snap to nearest speaker' option for that given sound object, AND its position is closest to the front speaker, it will only be reproduced by the front speaker.

Quote:
In other words will the front content( in a no wide setup) only spread to the wides(in a wides setup), or will it also affect/include content to the surrounds?
Front content in a 'no wides' setup will NEVER travel to the surrounds when wides are added. Adding wides does however affect surround content, since they are no longer needed to phantomize sound objects projected between wides position and fronts.

A good idea and understanding lies at the basis of every successful project.
maikeldepotter is online now  
post #128 of 179 Old 02-02-2017, 04:38 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Mashie Saldana's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 1,500
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 787 Post(s)
Liked: 639
Quote:
Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post
Definitely. A sound object projected around the wides location, will in absence of wides be spread to front AND surround speaker to phantomize at that same location. Only if the re-recording mixer activated the 'snap to nearest speaker' option for that given sound object, AND its position is closest to the front speaker, it will only be reproduced by the front speaker.
I'm not sure that is correct. When people have tried to get wides working using matrixing between front and surround it doesn't work as all wide content is redirected to the fronts only and not phantomed which would have permitted matrixing.

Tower Cinema - 9.1.6 in a 12'x12' room
Code:
      FL  C  FR      | Input  : Nvidia Shield TV, Panasonic DMP-UB400
 TFL  WL     WR  TFR | Magic  : Marantz SR7010, Marantz SR6010, 2x NAD T743
 TML  SL     SR  TMR | Output : Pioneer KRP-600a, SVS PB13 Ultra
 TRL  RSL   RSR  TRR |          Monitor Audio GSLCR 2xGS20 2xGS10 4xGSFX 6xBX1
Mashie Saldana is offline  
post #129 of 179 Old 02-02-2017, 04:58 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Ricoflashback's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Aurora, Colorado
Posts: 2,283
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 980 Post(s)
Liked: 604
27 speakers in your setup? My god, the extended warranty on those puppies must be a budget buster. I'm jealous.

I get complaints when I just switched around two speakers in a 11.1.4 configuration - - let alone buy new ones! "What do you need all those speakers for, she says?" "What a minute, honey, I'm not buying anything new - - just repositioning them like I should have in the first place." "Like I said, she says, what do you need all those speakers for? Is this going to make it louder?"

Hopefully.

Home Theater Setup
SONY 75X900E & 49X900E, BenQ W1080ST, Denon X5200 & Emotiva XPA-3
AudioSource 100VS, OPPO 103 & Samsung K8500, 9.1.4 Setup - Speakers - Studio 60's,
V.2 (FL/FR), CC-690 (C), V.5, ADP 590 V.5 (SS), MilleniaOne 2.0 (BS) - Velodyne 810 Sub,
Cornered Audio (FH/RH), Definitive Technology (Front Wides)
Ricoflashback is online now  
post #130 of 179 Old 02-02-2017, 05:51 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
maikeldepotter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 1,322
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1039 Post(s)
Liked: 296
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mashie Saldana View Post
I'm not sure that is correct. When people have tried to get wides working using matrixing between front and surround it doesn't work as all wide content is redirected to the fronts only and not phantomed which would have permitted matrixing.
The nearest speaker measured from the wides location is always L or R front. A sound positioned exactly at the wides location, and for which the "snap to nearest speaker" option is activated by the mixer, will always be completely redirected to the front speaker.

However, if this option is NOT activated, the sound will be divided between front and surround speaker. I don't know which sound fragments were used by the people you mention, but this is what I have seen with Mad Max FR:

When the S1s are taken out of the configuration, the Wides produce the same sound at those points where they were silent before. This is with 6dB attenuation, suggesting a equal distribution of that sound over Wides and Surrounds producing a phantom image in-between where the S1s are supposed to be. The same happens with the S1s when the Wides are taken out, suggesting a phantom image created between S1s and L/R. These are the two fragments I used for this:
00:02:55 to 03:09: ending with the text "So I exist in this wasteland" only in S1s not in Wides
01:33:04 to 08: car/motor chase sounds, only in Wides not in S1s

A good idea and understanding lies at the basis of every successful project.
maikeldepotter is online now  
post #131 of 179 Old 02-02-2017, 06:07 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Nalleh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Norway
Posts: 1,449
Mentioned: 48 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1201 Post(s)
Liked: 594
Quote:
Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post
Definitely. A sound object projected around the wides location, will in absence of wides be spread to front AND surround speaker to phantomize at that same location. Only if the re-recording mixer activated the 'snap to nearest speaker' option for that given sound object, AND its position is closest to the front speaker, it will only be reproduced by the front speaker.

Front content in a 'no wides' setup will NEVER travel to the surrounds when wides are added. Adding wides does however affect surround content, since they are no longer needed to phantomize sound objects projected between wides position and fronts.
Yea, i was maybe a little hung-up on the snap to front idea. I know Neo.X phantomed wides rather exellent, but the Atmos test tone do NOT phantom to wides if no wides are selected.
The easiest way for me to test your proposed SWATMOS would be to put my retired 5200 back in action as "pure wides", and that way keep my 8 heights. But that would entale the "pure surrounds" from a non-wides source.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mashie Saldana View Post
I'm not sure that is correct. When people have tried to get wides working using matrixing between front and surround it doesn't work as all wide content is redirected to the fronts only and not phantomed which would have permitted matrixing.
Yes, that is what i figured too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricoflashback View Post
27 speakers in your setup?

Hopefully.
I know, right? And STILL the mad scientist wants me to add even more !!

Triple Atmos Receivers
Atmos 13.1.8/DTS:X 9.1.8/AURO 3D 12.1

My setup:
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/29-wha...l#post41323201
Nalleh is online now  
post #132 of 179 Old 02-02-2017, 06:55 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Mashie Saldana's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 1,500
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 787 Post(s)
Liked: 639
Quote:
Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post
The nearest speaker measured from the wides location is always L or R front. A sound positioned exactly at the wides location, and for which the "snap to nearest speaker" option is activated by the mixer, will always be completely redirected to the front speaker.

However, if this option is NOT activated, the sound will be divided between front and surround speaker. I don't know which sound fragments were used by the people you mention, but this is what I have seen with Mad Max FR:
I'm pretty sure the test was done with the 9.1.6 test tones.

For those of us not running Altitude 32's are our surrounds classified as sourround 1, surround 2 or something else?

Tower Cinema - 9.1.6 in a 12'x12' room
Code:
      FL  C  FR      | Input  : Nvidia Shield TV, Panasonic DMP-UB400
 TFL  WL     WR  TFR | Magic  : Marantz SR7010, Marantz SR6010, 2x NAD T743
 TML  SL     SR  TMR | Output : Pioneer KRP-600a, SVS PB13 Ultra
 TRL  RSL   RSR  TRR |          Monitor Audio GSLCR 2xGS20 2xGS10 4xGSFX 6xBX1
Mashie Saldana is offline  
post #133 of 179 Old 02-02-2017, 07:11 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
maikeldepotter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 1,322
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1039 Post(s)
Liked: 296
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mashie Saldana View Post
I'm pretty sure the test was done with the 9.1.6 test tones.
That figures, I had the same experience.

Quote:
For those of us not running Altitude 32's are our surrounds classified as sourround 1, surround 2 or something else?
Dolby Atmos has 3 different side surrounds:

Side Surround1, at 70-75 degrees
Side Surround, at 90 degrees (this is the 'common' side surround containing bed channel info)
Side Surround2, at 105 degrees

A good idea and understanding lies at the basis of every successful project.
maikeldepotter is online now  
post #134 of 179 Old 02-02-2017, 08:34 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
sdurani's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Monterey Park, CA
Posts: 24,990
Mentioned: 109 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5082 Post(s)
Liked: 3553
Quote:
Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post
I don't know which sound fragments were used by the people you mention...
Aside from the 9.1.6 Atmos test tones, the most recent example is the Rhianna song during the end titles of Star Trek Beyond, where the edges of the front soundstage snap from the wides to the fronts when no wides are configured.

Sanjay
sdurani is online now  
post #135 of 179 Old 02-02-2017, 10:45 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Ricoflashback's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Aurora, Colorado
Posts: 2,283
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 980 Post(s)
Liked: 604
RE:
27 speakers in your setup?

Hopefully.

I know, right? And STILL the mad scientist wants me to add even more !!

It's like having 27 drinks. Believe me, 28 and beyond won't make much of a difference. Not that it stops us anyways.
Nalleh likes this.

Home Theater Setup
SONY 75X900E & 49X900E, BenQ W1080ST, Denon X5200 & Emotiva XPA-3
AudioSource 100VS, OPPO 103 & Samsung K8500, 9.1.4 Setup - Speakers - Studio 60's,
V.2 (FL/FR), CC-690 (C), V.5, ADP 590 V.5 (SS), MilleniaOne 2.0 (BS) - Velodyne 810 Sub,
Cornered Audio (FH/RH), Definitive Technology (Front Wides)
Ricoflashback is online now  
post #136 of 179 Old 02-02-2017, 01:22 PM
Newbie
 
robbied's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 10
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 12
I don't think it's been mentioned on this thread, but the behavior of the more recent mp4 version of the Dolby Atmos test tones (available on Dolby's site) is different than the tones found on the bluray disc.

The wide tones on the mp4 version of the 9.1.6 tones will indeed phantom between front and side surround. The disc version's wide tones do not phantom and play on the fronts only. Well, at least on the September 2015 disc version. This is using a Denon AVR-X4300H in 7.1.4 mode.

Maybe comparing both wide tone versions, on a Trinnov say, could add some information on wide behavior in different speaker configurations?
robbied is online now  
post #137 of 179 Old 02-03-2017, 04:50 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Nalleh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Norway
Posts: 1,449
Mentioned: 48 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1201 Post(s)
Liked: 594
Quote:
Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post

But if you want it 'technically correct' for ATMOS, you HAVE TO somehow use those 6200 L/R along with the 7200's L/R , as it contains part (in case of 'snap to front' even all) of the 'wides' sound, which you include in order to keep the correct balance in such summed-up system.
After reading posts here again, i understand what you mean here now. Since the 6200(no wides) tries to phantom a wide signal with its fronts and surrounds, and the fronts are silent, in this case, the phantoming wouldn't work.

However, on the 7200(with wides), the same signal(as the 6200 fronts)is still there, just divided between its fronts and wides, so wouldn't it still phantom, but now between the 6200 surround and the summed signal from the 7200 fronts and wides?

Triple Atmos Receivers
Atmos 13.1.8/DTS:X 9.1.8/AURO 3D 12.1

My setup:
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/29-wha...l#post41323201
Nalleh is online now  
post #138 of 179 Old 02-03-2017, 05:15 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
maikeldepotter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 1,322
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1039 Post(s)
Liked: 296
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
After reading posts here again, i understand what you mean here now. Since the 6200(no wides) tries to phantom a wide signal with its fronts and surrounds, and the fronts are silent, in this case, the phantoming wouldn't work.
Exactly.

Quote:
However, on the 7200(with wides), the same signal(as the 6200 fronts)is still there, just divided between its fronts and wides,
No. On the 7200 the fronts do not need to play a (part of the) signal that is positioned at the wide location, since the physical width speakers take care of all that. Not on the 6200, where both fronts and surrounds together need to take over this task from the absent wides.

Quote:
so wouldn't it still phantom, but now between the 6200 surround and the summed signal from the 7200 fronts and wides?
It would phantom between the 6200 surround speaker and the 7200 width speaker only. Since the 6200 front part is missing, the sound will be less loud and shifted more towards the surround position.

With "snap to nearest speaker" enabled, all the wide sound will be in the 6200 fronts. By not including the 6200 fronts in your summed-up system, the SPL of the wides sound will be even more reduced, and it will only be playing through the 7200 wides.

Edit: In the latter case my choice would rather be to have the loudness correct, and have the wide sound positioned between the wides and the fronts, which is what will happen by adding the signal of the 6200 fronts to that of the 7200 fronts.

A good idea and understanding lies at the basis of every successful project.

Last edited by maikeldepotter; 02-03-2017 at 05:35 AM.
maikeldepotter is online now  
post #139 of 179 Old 02-03-2017, 05:50 AM
Senior Member
 
jqmn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 418
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 205 Post(s)
Liked: 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post
For DTS:X you can only get this 'technically correct', if its down-mix from 4 to 2 height channels does not involve any base layer speakers. Given what DTS:X does when Heights are replaced by Tops (which is: 'leaking' height info to the base layer speakers), I expect this not to work properly.
I saw this and wondered whether this is what I have referred to as ghosting and get from time to time when using the upmixer. My speakers are Tops and there is bleed using the upmixer. It isn't all the time and while it can go for a bit it can also occur in just one scene for a bit and then go away. It almost always involves dialogue which makes no sense to me as I can't understand why pure center channel dialogue would be pushed out to another speaker. (Or maybe it is happening with other sounds but it is just easier to spot when it is dialogue.) It is so distracting that I go back to pure DTSMA and it, of course, goes away immediately. I am sorry to repeat this query here but I have asked in a couple of threads and haven't gotten much response.
jqmn is online now  
post #140 of 179 Old 02-03-2017, 05:56 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
maikeldepotter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 1,322
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1039 Post(s)
Liked: 296
Quote:
Originally Posted by jqmn View Post
I saw this and wondered whether this is what I have referred to as ghosting and get from time to time when using the upmixer. My speakers are Tops and there is bleed using the upmixer. It isn't all the time and while it can go for a bit it can also occur in just one scene for a bit and then go away. It almost always involves dialogue which makes no sense to me as I can't understand why pure center channel dialogue would be pushed out to another speaker. (Or maybe it is happening with other sounds but it is just easier to spot when it is dialogue.) It is so distracting that I go back to pure DTSMA and it, of course, goes away immediately. I am sorry to repeat this query here but I have asked in a couple of threads and haven't gotten much response.
Declaring your overhead speakers as 'heights' might solve that (known) issue.

A good idea and understanding lies at the basis of every successful project.
maikeldepotter is online now  
post #141 of 179 Old 02-03-2017, 05:59 AM
Senior Member
 
jqmn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 418
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 205 Post(s)
Liked: 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post
Declaring your overhead speakers as 'heights' might solve that (known) issue.
I remember a particular scene where it happens so I will try your suggestion. Thanks.
jqmn is online now  
post #142 of 179 Old 02-03-2017, 06:06 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Mashie Saldana's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 1,500
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 787 Post(s)
Liked: 639
Quote:
Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post
Declaring your overhead speakers as 'heights' might solve that (known) issue.
I will try in my system to set the 9.1.2 heights to FH and the x.x.4 heighs to front/rear tops. Should hopefully not affect the Atmos rendering while resolving this Neural:X issue. I shall put it on the todo list.

@jqmn , do you have an example to test this with?

Tower Cinema - 9.1.6 in a 12'x12' room
Code:
      FL  C  FR      | Input  : Nvidia Shield TV, Panasonic DMP-UB400
 TFL  WL     WR  TFR | Magic  : Marantz SR7010, Marantz SR6010, 2x NAD T743
 TML  SL     SR  TMR | Output : Pioneer KRP-600a, SVS PB13 Ultra
 TRL  RSL   RSR  TRR |          Monitor Audio GSLCR 2xGS20 2xGS10 4xGSFX 6xBX1
Mashie Saldana is offline  
post #143 of 179 Old 02-03-2017, 06:43 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Nalleh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Norway
Posts: 1,449
Mentioned: 48 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1201 Post(s)
Liked: 594
Quote:
Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post
It would phantom between the 6200 surround speaker and the 7200 width speaker only. Since the 6200 front part is missing, the sound will be less loud and shifted more towards the surround position.
Yes, that is what i meant, and in my case maybe not that bad, since my wides are at a relative narrow 54ish degrees.

I will have more time next week, and will get my 5200 back in action to test a little with your proposed SWATMOS. Discovering this differense in content between "pure wides" and "surround1/wides", really got me thinking, and since i have the opportunity to test it, i will. I am however running fast out of speakers...

Triple Atmos Receivers
Atmos 13.1.8/DTS:X 9.1.8/AURO 3D 12.1

My setup:
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/29-wha...l#post41323201
Nalleh is online now  
post #144 of 179 Old 02-03-2017, 11:26 AM
Senior Member
 
jqmn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 418
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 205 Post(s)
Liked: 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mashie Saldana View Post
I will try in my system to set the 9.1.2 heights to FH and the x.x.4 heighs to front/rear tops. Should hopefully not affect the Atmos rendering while resolving this Neural:X issue. I shall put it on the todo list.

@jqmn , do you have an example to test this with?
Yes, in Star Wars Episode II, Attack of the Clones, the chapter "Forbiden Love" gives me severe ghosting about midway in with speakers set as Tops. I run two AVRs in a 9.1.4 config. There was nothing before this chapter that caused a problem; I don't know about after since I turned the upmixer off. I was able to repeat this problem on this chapter. Later today I will change to Heights and see what happens.
jqmn is online now  
post #145 of 179 Old 02-03-2017, 04:23 PM
Member
 
Foundation42's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Seattle area
Posts: 130
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 55 Post(s)
Liked: 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post
Declaring your overhead speakers as 'heights' might solve that (known) issue.
Is the reversal also true - is setting the overhead speakers to 'tops' going to be optimal for Atmos?
Foundation42 is online now  
post #146 of 179 Old 02-04-2017, 11:39 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
sdurani's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Monterey Park, CA
Posts: 24,990
Mentioned: 109 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5082 Post(s)
Liked: 3553
Quote:
Originally Posted by robbied View Post
The wide tones on the mp4 version of the 9.1.6 tones will indeed phantom between front and side surround. The disc version's wide tones do not phantom and play on the fronts only.
Nice find! Shows that the snap-to-speaker parameter can be applied independently (and, in this case, inconsistently).
mavang likes this.

Sanjay
sdurani is online now  
post #147 of 179 Old 02-04-2017, 02:50 PM
Newbie
 
robbied's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 10
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Nice find! Shows that the snap-to-speaker parameter can be applied independently (and, in this case, inconsistently).
Yes indeed, and the 5.1.x tones are different as well. On a 7.1.4 setup, the 5.1.x surround tones play in the side surrounds on the mp4's and in the rear surrounds on the disc. So, I'm guessing one version of the 5.1.x tones must have been put out in error.

The new 5.1.x tones have been brought up before by markus767, I think. Can't recall for sure what thread it was. Possibly the Official Atmos one.
sdurani likes this.
robbied is online now  
post #148 of 179 Old 02-04-2017, 03:36 PM
Senior Member
 
jqmn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 418
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 205 Post(s)
Liked: 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post
Declaring your overhead speakers as 'heights' might solve that (known) issue.
I am going to take my question out of this thread as I found it may not relate to wides per se (or even declaring the tops as tops or heights) but maybe is more for the thread on greater than 7.4. I added 27MS of delay to the second AVR and the ghosting issue is basically gone for the one scene I have been using as the test case. Sorry for any thread misuse here....
jqmn is online now  
post #149 of 179 Old 02-25-2017, 04:57 PM - Thread Starter
LICENSED TO THRILL
 
CINERAMAX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: PAN-ATLANTIC
Posts: 17,648
Mentioned: 48 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2227 Post(s)
Liked: 1279
Send a message via Skype™ to CINERAMAX
CINERAMAX is online now  
post #150 of 179 Old 03-23-2017, 10:13 AM - Thread Starter
LICENSED TO THRILL
 
CINERAMAX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: PAN-ATLANTIC
Posts: 17,648
Mentioned: 48 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2227 Post(s)
Liked: 1279
Send a message via Skype™ to CINERAMAX
Of Course Hacksaw Ridge, Billy Linns HT, and Deepwater horizon are reference. But as luck would have it Now You see me 2, which is an incredibly annoying movie for someone not on amphetamines, sucker has an Easter Egg minute and a half of ATMOS DEMO NIRVANA, the scene before they jump in the tube and end up in China.
CINERAMAX is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Ultra Hi-End HT Gear ($20,000+)

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off