LOGE: 3D Remap Optimized, Format Agnostic. Full Bandw. Alcons/B6P CINE-Convertible - Page 7 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #181 of 316 Old 02-24-2017, 05:41 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Hi Alex how is the family. I have been beaten up over the he4ad by hdmi for 2 weeks but we are seeing the end of the tunnel.

Please keep an eye both here and in NAIAD. i will do the floorplan ove there indicating what Arnauds final whitepaper how it applies, or how it would apply and how i semi compromise to keep around the head bubble. BUT VERY VERY insteresting new concepts. after I sleep for 16 hours. HAGWE!

We also got LOGEs latest Vicoustics analysis and BOM. Stay Tuned!
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post #182 of 316 Old 02-25-2017, 03:24 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Wikileaking walters emails to brad

THESE ARE DISCUSSIONS PERTAINING TO THE RAPIDLY FINALISING FORMAT AGNOSTIC UNIFIED FORMAT, WHICH IS 94% CORRECT BUT 6% VERY VERY WRONG.

They also seem unaware (of course i just discovered this postulate last cedia)of the *individual side-top common object-lit pair UPWARD reinforcement of the top PHENOMENON that psychoacoustically occurs, don't you just LOVE psychics defying Phenomenon that is where the ambrosia of the Gods is harvested, this je ne se qua glory applies to immersive systems (same in video).

They rely on theory, science and methodical listening. Perhaps too structured, perhaps lacking inspiration from an Elder Role Model MASTER CONTENT CURATOR ( yes the later) problem is they end up throwing the TOPS towel in in resignation as to the limitations of human perception overhead.

HA! Limitations are meant to be overcome BY FORCE. Also because I have been listening to surround since my first Hi-FI in 1974 that was quad and i never stooped to inferior (from the aspect of not satisfying our cavemen dna primal need to be in the middle of the musicians), pompously presumptuous POV "We are at a concert, here is your copy of the programme, who is the conductor? Can you pass me the opera glasses? I HATE FVKCING STEREO POV!!!!!! Immersive audio is for Cavemen srereo is for sissies." (THIS IS A JOKE HAVE A SENSE OF HUMOR BEFORE YOU HIT REPORT POST-SNITCH-No strike that).

* I'll give that lecture LATER.



The day arnaud and walter visit this room and listen to a 128 object ATMOS played by the RMU (what is above the cp-850 cinema processor used for mixing) there is hope they will convert to the around your head bubble AND NOT THE AROUND THE ROOM DILUTED BUBBLE, that day they will amend their error (of omission through non consideration/ignorance of the variant condition ). So I retain veto power to assure that 6% is not lost, otherwise a brilliant scope of work.


Well now that I warned you is not 100% perfect but the closest it has come to in a white paper form, I leave you in lighthearted spirits with HERR PROFESSOR.


Walter Fortmüller
Feb 22 (3 days ago)

to Brad, me
Hey,

it is well past midnight around here, still some comments are in order ;-)

Topics discussed with Peter in order of significance:

1) insufficient separation between front left/right and width channels - nothing we can do about it due to room layout, it is what it is, I will do my best to fix it with 3D remapping. I will not mention any of the other issues that can't be fixed due to room layout/multi purpose usage of room (I am looking at you, wine cellar and bar area ;-) - the same apply for those.
2) Side surround speakers need to be moved forward - so that they are just behind the listening positions of the front row - right side surround aligned with the edge of the wall. Best case would be equal spacing between all side surrounds, the front width and front L/R. No focal points - horizontal head clearance = no speakers right next to or just behind a listnening position - speaker would "stick out". Also vertical speaker alignment shall use "cross firing" (Peter will explain)
3) Surround/base layer shall be placed 30cm=12 inch above seated ear height of each row, right now it is planned too high => making it too much of a "height layer", compromising the separation from the real height layer.
4) front and rear pair of height speakers shall be aligned with the front left/right - therefor moved slightly towards side wall. The mid height pair shall remain in the planned position - so slightly closer together. This is a trade off Arnaud suggested in order to "make up for the missing VOG". If you can move the mid height pair forward to bring it in line with the new side surround position that would be beneficial as well.

About the sub configuration - without in-room measurements it is not possible to make legitimate predictions regarding what kind of sub grouping/bass management configuration we will end with. The room layout forces the MLP to be pretty much dead center of the room - I fully expect that to be problematic regarding room modes. The closely grouped front subs will basically reinforce the exact same room modes. In my experience it is not just beneficial but likely absolutely necessary to balance out bass response throughout the listening area by combining front and side (better yet in most cases - rear - not possible here) subs. Doing just that by integrating sealed and vented subs is opening a whole new can of worms - should be avoided. The phase issues are primarily in the low end - phase shift caused by 4th order rollofff of vented versus sealed (although applying a linkwitz transform filter to sealed can shape phase response). The concept to route left/right surround/height high passed signals to side surrounds (bass management basically building "stereo subs") works quite well in some rooms, not at all in others. So the decision is always made on-site based on measurements. It definitely is an option to combine both approaches - group front and side subs and route front high pass and LFE to those to balance out the response plus route L/R surround/height high pass only to L/R side. That way we can have our cake and eat it... The Altitude is fully flexible regarding bass management and this is part of my optimization process prior to any digital room correction. The goal of optimized subwoofer integration (time/phase aligned, grouped in the most beneficial way) and bass management (routing of different group of speakers to different subs, using various XO points, filter types and orders) is to get the most even, balanced and strong bass response with least seat to seat variations before starting the DRC/calibration and tuning process. First we need to do our homework, which always requires in-room measurements - best practises only get you so far - each room is different ;-) By sticking to either all vented or all sealed subs we keep that flexibility while not complicating things further. I recommend vented for your particular room.

Best,
Walter

it should read low pass not high pass - sorry, it's late ;-)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for the clarification Walter. My comments:

2) I can move the first surround to edge of wall, this will create equal distance between the wide to first surround and first surround to second surround. No problem cross-firing the speaker aim.

3) It would be nice to have the elevation angle for each set of base level speakers (L,C,R), W, S1,S2,SB. I would assume from your comment that I would need to lower all the base level speakers by 6". My MLP ear height is about 4'8" - 5'.
4) The Top Speaker back boxes are 3' wide so I can move the speakers in or out and also for the center top could flip the speaker so the tweeter is inside toward the MLP.

On the base management. My original thought was to use the side subs for bass reinforcement of the right/left surrounds and tops and not have them cover the LFE as part of the bass management system. I understand from your note that you want that flexibility and in doing so all the "subs" need to be either all ported or all sealed. The MLP position is 15'/34' so a little forward from the mid point. The room nodes may be effected by the back corner having 32 feet (16x16) of hurricane glass doors which may significantly reduce the back bass wave in the lower frequencies (as they escape the room) and hence the severity of the nodes, almost like a modified amphitheater. Another consideration is the seating area is less than 100 square feet in a 900 square foot room that is a much smaller area to target than a traditional HT. In addition I mostly care about the MLP and possibly the MLP row.
My options on the subs are as follows:

1) Replace the Seaton sealed subs with ported front subs so all subs are ported. This is your recommendation and allows the flexibility to include all subs in the BM optimization.
2) Replace the Alcon side subs with sealed subs which would also allow all subs to be used in BM. - 2nd best option
3) Leave as is and not include the side subs in BM, and only use for stereo bass reinforcement of the surrounds and tops. -not optimal as it limits flexibility

Thanks again for all the input. Brad
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi Brad,

you are welcome.

2) Great
3) LCR should be 5° elevated in regards to seated ear height first row - put the front wides at the exact same height as LCR. Take the listening plane (seated ear height) and add 30cm/12 inches to get your surround speakers plane (center of Pro-Ribbons) - extend that line from first -> second row to the rear surrounds as well.

Exactly - we want to keep and provide as much flexibility during the tuning process as we can. My recommendation to go with vented/bass reflex subs all around is based on your room specifics - especially the large glass door surface area. That factor alone has a most significant impact on modal/energy distribution and room acoustics parameters in general. Among many other factors (wall construction, seating, platform, usual number of listeners, etc.) this has not and cannot be reliably predicted by the acoustical modelling Vicoustics has done - without collecting necessary data by on-site measurements to base those calculations on it simply is not possible and therefore I expect their predicted results will be way off. They are attempting to simulate resulting room acoustics in a way that cannot be accomplished with that approach in my experience.
In regards to low frequency/ULF response your room can be considered "very leaky". Consequentially the room gain will be rather limited the lower the frequency. I also expect an "awkward" distribution of room gain, with some of the mid bass impact still well contained by your glass walls. In that kind of environment my clear advice is to go with appropriate vented designs. Sealed subwoofers in general make use and to some point rely on common room gains in small rooms - that balances out the 2nd order rolloff of that enclosure type. Sure, you can take a brute force approach and use DSP/response shaping to counteract that, but this is the opposite of efficiency and proper design then ;-)


Cheers,
Walter

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post #183 of 316 Old 02-26-2017, 07:11 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I do not feel that making a custom alcons subwoofer is a good value proposition due to brexit and alcons inability to adjust their prices to the euro drop, i understand that they are true manufacturers in the full sense of the word and have nothing oemed. But with full frequency mains i feel the ideal integration is such as the sub with which I had such great fortune with in Moscow.

PHANTOM AUDIO visited Quested (currently an F2 owner and will be making the change). It is by Far the only subwoofer i really like, that i have heard extensively non stop at 120 decibel peaks and found no flaws with and i felt relaxed and reinvigorated after such intense HIGH spl listening sessions. That is the reference subwoofer to be on the top of the lists option, and is __ percent cheaper than a year ago because of the Brexit thing.

Also it is tuned to complement the ribbon sysytems perfectly many times more effectively than Alcons has. To be honest I love Alcons but the subs at CEDIA might as well have been jbl or qsc nothing remarkable. I do not know who they need to talk to if Carlos, Walter, Mark or Donald Trump, but they need to talk to someone to fix their subs. sorry just the mesenger.
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post #184 of 316 Old 02-26-2017, 07:28 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Vicoustics Analysis REV 2

Brad asked for more diffusion on top, as i have been saying all along, but their program overcompensated again and added even more absorption.

So I have asked them to slice the BOM into the different elevations and reflective ceiling and Brad will take the scalpel to the absorption panel count, till the room measurements are done.

I would explain further my analysis but at the moment fuming with a CARLOS-TYPE'S, temporarily. From Tall Mountain Chains Come The Tallest Egoes that is all I can say, look at the Dalai Lama. He thinks he is god too like Walter.
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post #185 of 316 Old 02-26-2017, 09:41 PM
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Seaton Subwoofers are Excellent I have a few here.... but the Quested Subwoofer and Amp allow me to tune the room directly from the Analog Crossover on the Quested Sub Amplifier.

Essentially doing most of the work before the processor has to step in. Roger recommends the setup to be done this way. With the Seaton having a Built in DSP, Most of the Sub tuning has to be done via processor.

Btw Peter, I am from the UK (Born & Bred) and not far from Quested. I live in both countries moving back and forth time to time.

The Quested Subwoofer by far is the best iv heard so far. Seaton subs are no slouch but you just need more of them stacked to produce similar outputs. To me anyway the Quested just integrated better and sounded cleaner.
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post #186 of 316 Old 02-27-2017, 06:04 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I so totally agree with the BY FAR THE BEST HEARD and CLEANER comments, that is why I put it in the context of a 2 week HIGH SPL zero fatigue tour de force, The element of low fatigue is not limited only to the Ribbons versus horns, I think it applies to a a subwoofer with built in cooling to retain thermal integrity and thus consistent transparency. Yes I am attributing the term transparency to a sub. There is truly not better match for a ribbon system.

I hope Brad does not cut corners here, besides it is fed digitally, bringing the transient response up a notch , more transparency and aplomb. I heard that happen when Bob Stuart decided to add a digital input to his very capable subwoofer and wow was that an easy sale. There is really nothing to mull over here except budget, and providence or synchronicity has Brexit cattle proding Brad in the righteous direction.

THE RULES HAVE CHANGED THEMSELVES the moment we have lowered the response of all speakers in the room to FULL FREQUENCY. If the speakers were sealed, then by all means go all sealed, but in the speakers being used for the IMMERSION 2025 protosystems they happen to be vented, I was ready to go with Mark as I adore the guy and respect his expertise like few others, but sometimes I have to be a dick to my friends in the quest to IMMERSION 2025 perfection.

It will be very interesting next month what transpires in the Laser Projector arena at the CINEMACON EVC TOUR. And the march goes on, this is not a hobby this is ...A MOVEMENT.

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post #187 of 316 Old 02-27-2017, 06:53 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Brad alcons is showing off our phantom center discovery now....


Now on the subwoofer discussion and there is where i corrected Walter for taking theory for granted Saturday on wassap, they claim that a vented speaker is more punchy and does not extend. In this business there is always a ICONOCLASTIC BUTE that defies the laws of physics in its perceived implementation, like Phantom Has Stated the Qsb 218 or 2 x Qsb118 is such a beast, just perfect despite what instrumentation may say to the contrary perception is the final arbiter. Now being digital and with 4,000 watss it has to be the PERFECT SUB for a full frequency ported system like LOGE, NAIAD and soon TRITON 2025.

THOSE ALCONS DUAL 18 did not sound as integrated or cohesive as the QSB 218 , how close? 15% of its quality somewhere in between the knees and the calves of the Quested. Sorry just the messenger.


For those not Brad here is the youtube of our EPIPHANY!


Before they became famous.... There is Brad in White about to have the Epiphany.



ALCONS FOR MINI-PLF AND MIDI-PLF, A GC DISCOVERY (Yes Donald you did walk into their room by mistake at a convention first but you did not listen-so another missed claim to fame ).

Now I have not heard the single 18 and since I will not experiment with anything that does not pass ultimate muster, It is always better to have dual 18 in one cabinet than 2 sperate 18"s so i have asked Quested to update the pricing for the QSB-218 from the 2012 price i paid.

BEHOLD THE TOP CONTENDER for ALL NEW MOONS.

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post #188 of 316 Old 02-27-2017, 07:29 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Im thinking we could do a 4th crossover L+R experiment (we wire it it for either way like in Albiorix)

What makes them sound so good after non stop >120db? Dunno for sure, must be the built in cooling sinks.






The ADA Trrinnov install over there the sound was too processed sounding, when the unit took a hit we used the backup ada 7.1 entry level processor with just 2 subs and right then and there I fell in love, never have heard something so captivatingly powerful, coherent and clean (relaxing-organic) at the same time subwoofer-wise. For the best Ribbon system (Naiad being AMT's) We would be playing russian roulette if we do not go this route, Brad.



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post #189 of 316 Old 02-27-2017, 07:59 AM
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They did NOT have them turned on/up at ISE. So, I could not listen;-). You are the man that got them into HT.

Of course commercial integrators used a few left over or traded in speakers in their own HT, but not something Alcons had thought about till you came along.

The manufacturer in Haarlem they worked at before founding Alcons, had a big fan in Spain that used that company's ribbon speakers in an impressive HT, posted way back when in the CRT section. So, I had heared about that here in the previous decade, but lost the link and couldn't remember the name. So they have a track record in ribbons that goes back longer than the 11-12 years since founding Alcons.

Don't you consider them all friends, Peter; Mark, Tom and Roger.

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Yes the bestest of.

MARK BECAME MY BFF on the second hour of my last B-Day right here:

By the way Adrenaline and IPADS don't mix something happens when you sweat in excitement on these capcitance screens. We need a Handheld Brad because expect the same to happen to you.

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Kramer handed out touchscreen gloves at ISE;-).
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post #192 of 316 Old 02-28-2017, 06:36 AM
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Framing, electrical pre-wire, plumbing, and mechanical inspections done. Icynene insulation sprayed in roof and wine cellar.
Ready to finish sound proofing.
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Framing, electrical pre-wire, plumbing, and mechanical inspections done. Icynene insulation sprayed in roof and wine cellar.
Ready to finish sound proofing.
Your room is looking great! I love following the progress. I know Peter will turn it into a magical space! Can't wait to see it all come together.
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post #194 of 316 Old 02-28-2017, 02:07 PM
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Coming together quite nicely! Very cool watching it all come together. Wish I had a dual pair of the Quested QSB-218s.
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JBL Pro Cinema-JTR subwoofers-Sony SXRD projection-Elite AT screen-Denon AVR-Oppo BD player-Acoustimac panels-SeatCraft HT seating
MANCHESTER UNITED!!
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post #195 of 316 Old 02-28-2017, 11:19 PM
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Nice concept: views + wine + movies... I don't think I would ever leave the space!

Which is the plan for the ceiling drywall? I mean, there seems to be a substantial volume between ceiling and roof. This must absorb some of the bass, I reckon? Or will the ceiling be soundproofed to the max?

Building a 9.3.4 HT: DIYSG Titan LX [LCR] • Cinema 10 Max [6 Surrounds] • Beta 10CX custom [TF+TR] • LLT Mal-x 18" subs [2] • XPR-5 • MM8003 [8ch] • XMC-1 [RMC-1 wanted] • PT AT6000E • 130" Seymour Center XD • Oppo 103EU • WTB: 1 extra Mal-x 18" SW
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post #196 of 316 Old 03-01-2017, 05:32 AM
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Nice concept: views + wine + movies... I don't think I would ever leave the space!

Which is the plan for the ceiling drywall? I mean, there seems to be a substantial volume between ceiling and roof. This must absorb some of the bass, I reckon? Or will the ceiling be soundproofed to the max?
I would add music to views+wine+movies as I plan to listen with Auromatic and Auro3D.
There will be heavy soundproofing on the walls and ceiling. The ceiling will be mounted on isolation clips with a 5/8 layer of OSB, Green Glue, then 5/8" drywall with alot of acoustic panels added. I'm also blowing in alot of loose fiberglass insulation (no vapor barrier) above the ceiling.

The major bass loss will be the the rear corner hurricane glass sliding doors (16'x16'). They will be covered by binds and a blackout curtain but will still leak bass. This was one of the main reasons Walter has recommended ported sub-woofers. I'll probably have him do two groups of calibrations, one set in theater mode with glass doors and curtains closed and another set in party mode with curtains open and doors slid open as well.

We just finished the landscaping so the views are getting better.
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Fantastic.

Can't figure out the left picture. Is that glass or some kind of birdcage??

The 5/8 OSB is in itself a good vapor barrier, BTW. I have a lot of glass also (2 walls - triple glazing since we have a colder climate than Florida). The other walls and the ceiling are OSB 18 mm + drywall + GreenGlue + drywall. I figured an extra layer of cheap drywall didn't add much to the overall cost.

Building a 9.3.4 HT: DIYSG Titan LX [LCR] • Cinema 10 Max [6 Surrounds] • Beta 10CX custom [TF+TR] • LLT Mal-x 18" subs [2] • XPR-5 • MM8003 [8ch] • XMC-1 [RMC-1 wanted] • PT AT6000E • 130" Seymour Center XD • Oppo 103EU • WTB: 1 extra Mal-x 18" SW
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post #198 of 316 Old 03-01-2017, 03:24 PM
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Fantastic.

Can't figure out the left picture. Is that glass or some kind of birdcage??
Screened in pool areas in FL are very common.

http://allseasonspools.com/pros-cons...sures-florida/
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post #199 of 316 Old 03-01-2017, 08:34 PM
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Fantastic.

Can't figure out the left picture. Is that glass or some kind of birdcage??

The 5/8 OSB is in itself a good vapor barrier, BTW. I have a lot of glass also (2 walls - triple glazing since we have a colder climate than Florida). The other walls and the ceiling are OSB 18 mm + drywall + GreenGlue + drywall. I figured an extra layer of cheap drywall didn't add much to the overall cost.
The first thing you learn moving to Florida is that you are no longer at the top of the food chain. Deadly reptiles and nasty bugs are present, not a big deal and a small price for living in paradise . Screened pool cages are very common if you are not with in a couple miles of the ocean, but that proximity to the ocean has its owns drawbacks in cost and life style, especially in tourist season.
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post #200 of 316 Old 03-02-2017, 02:08 AM
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Ah, I see. Thanks!

Building a 9.3.4 HT: DIYSG Titan LX [LCR] • Cinema 10 Max [6 Surrounds] • Beta 10CX custom [TF+TR] • LLT Mal-x 18" subs [2] • XPR-5 • MM8003 [8ch] • XMC-1 [RMC-1 wanted] • PT AT6000E • 130" Seymour Center XD • Oppo 103EU • WTB: 1 extra Mal-x 18" SW
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<P>That is some serre. Serre in Dutch is a glass extension, in Flemish it would be a greenhouse, always a source of confusion on local forums;-). But by the looks of it they did not use greenhouse materials/construction. I see lots of powdercoating instead of bare aluminium and hot dip galvanized beams. Nice, but must also provide quite a thermal load, even with thermally coated glass?</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P>Is that a private or communal/shared pont? I.e how close are your neighbours?</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P>I see some budding reeds will it be a heliophitic filter? Given the size I guess even without filtering it would not be bothered by use as a swimming pont?</P>

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The first thing you learn moving to Florida is that you are no longer at the top of the food chain. Deadly reptiles and nasty bugs are present, not a big deal and a small price for living in paradise . Screened pool cages are very common if you are not with in a couple miles of the ocean, but that proximity to the ocean has its owns drawbacks in cost and life style, especially in tourist season.
So true. That's why I have such a fondness for Home Theater. I can stay in the nice and cool AirConditioned space during the summer. And I don't have to worry about one of my kids being eat by an alligator at Disney World.

I love Florida and I love the incrediblely diverse wildlife, but I also like knowing the boundaries.

I'm just starting construction on new home. I'm on a wide open part of the bay, with only about a 3 min boat ride to the gulf. I am expecting about 30 months for construction and will be doing a much larger HT than the last. The shell of the room will be 30' wide x 45' deep x 18' ceiling. Hoping to do about a 26' wide screen, and will be starting a new build thread in a few months.

The sea wall is being built now and I hope the work on the house slab will begin in about 3 weeks.

I love watching your room come together! I love the process of construction, but I hate the waiting! I would love to possibly see your system in person once it's complete, if you wouldn't mind showing it off!
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So tomorrow we expect the Vicoustic drawings sans the layer of acoustical fabric in order to be able to separate the elevations and reflective ceiling piecemeal to count the acoustical treatments, Brad is taking a scalpel to the absorption count and will install less than what they specified until the room is finished, the seats are in place and Walter takes first measurements.
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As promised 2 views of all the room surfaces

...


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post #205 of 316 Old 03-03-2017, 05:47 PM
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THE RULES HAVE CHANGED THEMSELVES the moment we have lowered the response of all speakers in the room to FULL FREQUENCY. If the speakers were sealed, then by all means go all sealed, but in the speakers being used for the IMMERSION 2025 protosystems they happen to be vented, I was ready to go with Mark as I adore the guy and respect his expertise like few others, but sometimes I have to be a dick to my friends in the quest to IMMERSION 2025 perfection.
Hi Peter,

No hard feelings on changes, as I know things are very fluid in such projects, but I came across this discussion and felt it deserved some added commentary. I suspect you are taking some comments and recommendations out of context. The time when ported subs will fight with sealed subs is at the tuning frequency. What you seem to also be missing, is that 2 ported subs tuned to different frequencies can also fight each other. If you are protecting/high passing a ported main speaker above the tuning frequency, you can cross to any type of sub you want. A better example of this being a problem would be if you had big ported subs up front tuned to the mid teens, and then had compact subs in the rear tuned to ~30Hz. Around the tuning frequency of the compact subs, you have a chance of seeing cancellation with the big subs up front as the output of the ported sub lags by 180 deg from that of the much lower tuned sub. This would be the similar case with a deep extending sealed sub with a higher tuned, compact sub.

When planning different subwoofers and the bass aspect of speakers, consider if you are using the output around the tuning frequency, and are you overlapping or crossing between devices. Overlapping is where things get tricky. It is much easier to overlay sealed subwoofers that start rolling off at different frequencies, and much more likely you can get a cohesive result.
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post #206 of 316 Old 03-03-2017, 06:58 PM
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Hey Peter @CINERAMAX what do you think/know the CRS-12 will do down low? I thought it's specs were 73hz but yet you're using it as a full range?
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post #207 of 316 Old 03-03-2017, 07:13 PM
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How many Subs for this installation? Which models are you gunning for?
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post #208 of 316 Old 03-04-2017, 02:55 AM
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Hi Peter,

No hard feelings on changes, as I know things are very fluid in such projects, but I came across this discussion and felt it deserved some added commentary. I suspect you are taking some comments and recommendations out of context. The time when ported subs will fight with sealed subs is at the tuning frequency. What you seem to also be missing, is that 2 ported subs tuned to different frequencies can also fight each other. If you are protecting/high passing a ported main speaker above the tuning frequency, you can cross to any type of sub you want. A better example of this being a problem would be if you had big ported subs up front tuned to the mid teens, and then had compact subs in the rear tuned to ~30Hz. Around the tuning frequency of the compact subs, you have a chance of seeing cancellation with the big subs up front as the output of the ported sub lags by 180 deg from that of the much lower tuned sub. This would be the similar case with a deep extending sealed sub with a higher tuned, compact sub.

When planning different subwoofers and the bass aspect of speakers, consider if you are using the output around the tuning frequency, and are you overlapping or crossing between devices. Overlapping is where things get tricky. It is much easier to overlay sealed subwoofers that start rolling off at different frequencies, and much more likely you can get a cohesive result.
Thanks for you input Mark, no final decision has been made on the subs yet. My note to Walter in post 184 lays out the three Options being considered. My original thoughts (option 3) was to just use the side Alcons 15" subs for RL surround and top bass reinforcement. Option 2 would be to replace the Alcons side subs with sealed subs. I believe when we talked you mentioned you could make a sealed sub with that profile. I'll want to consider that option. The only issue on that is I have 2 extra channels on one of the Sentinal amps I was hoping to use for those side subs.
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post #209 of 316 Old 03-04-2017, 03:31 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Hey Peter @CINERAMAX what do you think/know the CRS-12 will do down low? I thought it's specs were 73hz but yet you're using it as a full range?

Hi Alex, I believe these go down to 55 maybe 50, 55 is the planned cutoff point. Don't understand where the 73 comes from, how it was measured, in any event this is what BRAD chose after scouring the entire line. The crs-12 here uses a 4 inch ribbon and not the 6" ribbon of the regular crs-12.

I am of the school of thought that it is crucial all speakers go down to 35hz if they can, that is the goal at NAIAD. Certainly anything cutting above 65 hz, like 2 demoes AGO for JBL at CEDIA the bombing raid in unbroken sounded scaled properly within the action happening on screen as the bombers ominously approach the camera from the Horizon....


Once they thresholded into the room I was surrounded by a swarm of COX Gasoline airplanes.



I also had a speaker right next to my left ear that we have gone to great care to avoid that situation herein, NOW FORMALLY TERMED: FOCAL POINTS. When you have a surround speaker directly to you side or right behind relatively close to the MLP, refer to the wip floorplan in NAIAD. Ideally we should have 2 more side speakers there but DUE to a side surround+corresponding adjascent top reinforcement phenomenom where the sides assist the imaging of the harder to localize top, effectively solidifying its prcecise location this yields the coolest effect of hearing PING PONGING from alternate channels ovehead, That we should all give our right arm for. Something crucial for Atmos. So I am back to a GRID DESIGN but one concentrated solely on the MLP's 3 center seats per row. I will never ever do a cinema with rows of 4, have acqueised to the realities of the room limitations in the past, moving forward having wider seats may be the way to go. Brad's Back row is the ideal perfect seating for a 3 seat row holo-bubble nirvana.

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post #210 of 316 Old 03-04-2017, 04:15 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Cool

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post
When planning different subwoofers and the bass aspect of speakers, consider if you are using the output around the tuning frequency, and are you overlapping or crossing between devices. Overlapping is where things get tricky. It is much easier to overlay sealed subwoofers that start rolling off at different frequencies, and much more likely you can get a cohesive result.
Hi Mark,
Thanks for being a sport and a gentleman.

Hey when Trinnov was limited to 16 channels of DIGITAL audio plus16 ANALOG (between you and me -to bad detrimental effects as I could hear exactly which channels were limiting the performance at cedia last) then your system made perfect sense to me, but much more because I have the highest regards for your tuned ear experience, you are not all specs and theory you can make a subwoofer sound exactly the way I ( and Taker-he is a bass fiend) like, even those Alcons, let me just disengage the Sugarcoating of it: ALCONS SUBS SUCK. Small room acoustics they are stumbling into

So your skills are admired , STRIKE THAT) theyre revered, but I have an elephants memory for IMMERSION and the most seamless, natural non fatiguing after 2 weeks at Rock Concert Level with great extension (22hz for a ported subwoofer but very gentle bottom slope) I have ever had the pleasure of working with is the qsb218. PHANTOM AUDIO loves your subs but his observations were exactly as mine, mind you with the QSB118 (which two of don't come to sound as good as the DoppelBanger), take into consideration how i design my systems by an ever increasing accumulation of solutions that work best to my ear literally over almost 4 decades, and I was listening to rick wakeman journey to the center of the earth in Quad back in 1974. It is all about immersion and if the Quested fed digitally is going to sound 15% better like the Meridian 600? subs did (they actually sounded 25% better to me), as they went from analog to digital, then I have to push for that NEW benchmark.It is MY JOB TO DO SO.



A year ago today 2 qsb218 would cost 18,000us , they are way cheaper today thanks to BREXIT, the digital input 4,000wpc amp [check], best cleanest sub I ever heard [check], cheap price [3 is the charm], that is my position moving forward but if I find a client where there is money for ultimate tweaking I WOULD/WILL HIRE YOU to make the most of that "ULTIMATE RIG".

Not to the forum, but when competing with unscrupulous integrator dealers selling what you see on the CEDIA show floor with the same thought and planning as dishwashers or pbx/alarm systems down here in Miami; in this case I have no problem stating that it is best to have ported subs all around if your system extends low enough on all speakers, .
Also there are new rules when it comes to having active fronts and passive surrounds in full frequency, because if you do not have full frequency surrounds YOU ARE MISSING the envelopment factor, BASS MANAGEMENT may work sometimes but very few altogether, most attempts FAIL. So In a system with small surrounds and tops >85 like UWE's Triton it is urgent to replace the diminutive lt-24 simply because bass management aint going to work (80% probability it sucks - and it has nothing to do with volume but vital directional cues not only for the bed surround but it's corresponding top on the grid-were it helps define their virtualisation and scale).

Ok so we use surrounds and tops going down to 35.... But what happens is: you cannot mix the all active fronts with all passive surrounds (because now you have full frequency allaround) so there will be massive cancellations (at the lower end of the range), and ALEX I hope the 73 is not an artificial limitation placed by ALCONS to prevent such cancellations I am hoping that their impedance coupled amplification compensates for this effect. That is why i intend to convince Uwe , without losing his amplfiers to go all digital 48 full frequency speakers,that level of channel sufficiency coupled with the Barco 6p and upgrading the screen material to a V6xxL will convert TRITON into the first FULLY IMMERSION 2025 compliant system, noblesse oblige Uwe, a fitting ultimate upgrade for the world's first 32 channel low fatigue altitude system where everyone thought the team was nuts.

The rules have changed, we have seen VICOUSTICS model step the absorption pedal to the metal here. I'm going ahead with what best facts and experiences point me is the roadmap to IMMERSION 2025, AS WE MAKE MISTAKES WE WILL CORRECT. Brad relies much more on logic and science than I do, that is why I want one extra day of Walter (Humoring my goosing of the immersive channels, and manipulating time delay to scape an intimate bubble) and you too If I could convince Brad, to HUMANIZE the system the way the first homosapiens would enjoy it based on their hearing both as to excellence in hunting cues directional granularity and the social gregarious cave fireside singing and storytelling hearth aspects, that is what we really need to satiate. When the cavemen went into the caves they did so because they were fulfilling a need TO BE IMMERSED IN SOUND I suspect that come 2025 our systems would pass muster with our illustrious surroundophile ancestors.


That last post was too Altruistic, Not Good for Gangsta Image. I wish the moderators would let me unwind a bit letting lose in GANGSTA SPEAK , but Alas i know the sad answer, this forum ain't street. PO-GC

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