LOGE: 3D Remap Optimized, Format Agnostic. Full Bandw. Alcons/B6P CINE-Convertible - Page 8 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #211 of 316 Old 03-04-2017, 02:18 PM
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Hi Alex, I believe these go down to 55 maybe 50, 55 is the planned cutoff point. Don't understand where the 73 comes from, how it was measured, in any event this is what BRAD chose after scouring the entire line. The crs-12 here uses a 4 inch ribbon and not the 6" ribbon of the regular crs-12.

I am of the school of thought that it is crucial all speakers go down to 35hz if they can, that is the goal at NAIAD. Certainly anything cutting above 65 hz, like 2 demoes AGO for JBL at CEDIA the bombing raid in unbroken sounded scaled properly within the action happening on screen as the bombers ominously approach the camera from the Horizon....


Once they thresholded into the room I was surrounded by a swarm of COX Gasoline airplanes.



I also had a speaker right next to my left ear that we have gone to great care to avoid that situation herein, NOW FORMALLY TERMED: FOCAL POINTS. When you have a surround speaker directly to you side or right behind relatively close to the MLP, refer to the wip floorplan in NAIAD. Ideally we should have 2 more side speakers there but DUE to a side surround+corresponding adjascent top reinforcement phenomenom where the sides assist the imaging of the harder to localize top, effectively solidifying its prcecise location this yields the coolest effect of hearing PING PONGING from alternate channels ovehead, That we should all give our right arm for. Something crucial for Atmos. So I am back to a GRID DESIGN but one concentrated solely on the MLP's 3 center seats per row. I will never ever do a cinema with rows of 4, have acqueised to the realities of the room limitations in the past, moving forward having wider seats may be the way to go. Brad's Back row is the ideal perfect seating for a 3 seat row holo-bubble nirvana.
So there shouldn't be any problems at all for them to produce any audible tracking that the human is is capable of tracking at and above reference levels in larger rooms. 55hz should allow great potential in the 65-75hz range which I think will be very important once mixers start using more object panning down closer to and even below the humans' threshold which is all I have been shooting for in full range immersive surrounds. I think the subs will take over and make any system work as long as the surrounds can capture that first octave below human tracking abilities at reference levels. Now just waiting on Roger to get that proto done and measured lol so can figure out what to do.

Eliminating my 4th seat in my 18' wide room was a no brainer and the first step towards better sound which also allowed for better diffusion too.
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post #212 of 316 Old 03-04-2017, 06:07 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I think will be very important once mixers start using more object panning down closer to and even below the humans' threshold.

Eliminating my 4th seat in my 18' wide room was a no brainer and the first step towards better sound which also allowed for better diffusion too.
When? Can you say Hacksaw Ridge, Billy Lynn's HTW and Man From Uncle?

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post #213 of 316 Old 03-05-2017, 12:37 PM
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Hey @CINERAMAX you lost me here-

Ok so we use surrounds and tops going down to 35.... But what happens is: you cannot mix the all active fronts with all passive surrounds (because now you have full frequency allaround) so there will be massive cancellations (at the lower end of the range), and ALEX I hope the 73 is not an artificial limitation placed by ALCONS to prevent such cancellations I am hoping that their impedance coupled amplification compensates for this effect. That is why i intend to convince Uwe , without losing his amplfiers to go all digital 48 full frequency speakers

You state you are using surrounds that will go down to 35hz but will cause nasty effects down low. Theoretically how low should the surrounds be able to play nice? All "I think is needed" is 50hz or slightly above for full authority to be played below human tracking abilities. If the surrounds start playing 10-15hz before whatever that threshold is that should be enough room for different types of blending, no? Or, will this too cause the nasty cancellations?

As far as the 73hz and artificial limitations, impedance coupled amplification, or anything else concerning digital tech I'm drounding ;-). Insert-reaching hand icon to you and any others trying to achieve this lol. You know this is what I have wanted in my room before ever meeting/talking with you so am just as hungry for these types of systems to be built and experienced as they should be truly 2025esk.

Heck. I don't know many people that have waited as long as I have to choose surrounds lol. The digital amplification, Alcons vs Quested, and being one of the first traveling this exciting road make patience all that more imposrtant lol.

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post #214 of 316 Old 03-05-2017, 01:09 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Hehe, What I meant to say per Roger and Walter agreed is say you have active speakers in the front and want to do an all full frequency system, then you cannot mix the active fronts WITH PASSIVE SURROUNDS because the active crossovers lower frequencies will cancel the passive crossovered speaker LF. Capice?

Somehow I feel that what Alcons is doing with their feedback loop compensates for this, because it has not been apparent at demos.

Sue Roger if his surround and top speakers reach full range down to 35hz. If an issue That is addressed twofold: in the general crossover low pass into LF combined with optimizer of the Trinnov and with the giant bass trap.

Keep in mind that he is more of a small room acoustics (studio) guy and explains that in such system the entire back wall or large segments at the very extremes should be a 12" deep giant bass trap that will integrate all the LF frequencies from the assorted multichannel Full F speakers creating a cohesive natural effect. This Bass trap wall can be covered with perforated masonite GIANT BAD PANEL or other diffusive treatments in front for todays channel sufficient systems.


He categorically believes that for channel rich systems the Design in Naiad going all full frequency will be excellent as long as we build the giant bass trap in the rear.
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post #215 of 316 Old 03-05-2017, 01:26 PM
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Quote:
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Hehe, What I meant to say per Roger and Walter agreed is say you have active speakers in the front and want to do an all full frequency system, then you cannot mix the active fronts WITH PASSIVE SURROUNDS because the active crossovers lower frequencies will cancel the passive crossovered speaker LF. Capice?

Somehow I feel that what Alcons is doing with their feedback loop compensates for this, because it has not been apparent at demos.
Trinnov's own correction should easily compensate for differences between the phase response and latency between active and passive speakers in the frequency range that matter here, especially at front/rear of the room, and where the speakers closest to each other are the same. Me thinks you are putting extra hurdles in front of the high-jump you've already set up in tackling wide bandwidth all around.

If the speakers are able to deliver the low frequency content to the listening area in a desired manner on their own in the acoustics of the space, there's no overlap, just crossover to the selected subwoofers. It's important to remember how sounds may be mixed with bass panning through LCR or in groups of rear speakers rather than just to a specific channel at one time, but don't make it more complicated than it already can be.
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post #216 of 316 Old 03-05-2017, 01:35 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Thanks Mark, if you have a chance to analyse the scene with the japanese drums at the end of Man From Uncle the drums are coming out of every channel on the left and back but in drum solo like alternating way.

Check it out and confirm if you can that this is a ping ponging bass mix. Very cool.

regarding the giant bass trap: but...but..I promised Roger whos been insisting, he did an ambisonics 16 channel room in the eighties for the BBC so who am I to complain, For NAIAD let him have it.

Thanks!

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post #217 of 316 Old 03-06-2017, 03:51 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post
Trinnov's own correction should easily compensate for differences between the phase response and latency between active and passive speakers in the frequency range that matter here, especially at front/rear of the room, and where the speakers closest to each other are the same. Me thinks you are putting extra hurdles in front of the high-jump you've already set up in tackling wide bandwidth all around.

If the speakers are able to deliver the low frequency content to the listening area in a desired manner on their own in the acoustics of the space, there's no overlap, just crossover to the selected subwoofers It's important to remember how sounds may be mixed with bass panning through LCR or in groups of rear speakers rather than just to a specific channel at one time, but don't make it more complicated than it already can be.
Why should one rely on the processor to solve a problem wholly preventable though? On Ocean Drive in the late nineties i had a 7.1 active meridian digital system and loved it, the only problem is I fumed 13 tweeters, it was a full bandwidth system, now here in my flat lab I have 8 channels of Dynaudio focus 380/260 bed system without subs neither, always have not felt the need to aggravate neighbors but Brad asked me when he was here were is the sub? He could not believe there was not any. I have done systems both ways and it is definitely a more balanced and involving solution to go full bandwidth, and since active brings a layer of studio like cleanliness to the sound, specially when fed digitally, I really can't see where the admonitions are coming from.

I exploit the rendering engine of the trinnov but the system has to sound clean, natural and organic before Optimizer is used to add the icing on the cake, no crossover aspect is used except for lf management. Many speaker designers work that way and Roger is no exception. The digital amplifiers will bring their own presets speaker curve shaping filters bespoke to the position, if in wall, out of wall, corner, both for the internal class D and the external Class ab that are managed by the same dsp amp.

Mark/Adam(by agreeing), you are beginning to sound like the Sales Manager at CAT, who at the shows would ask me Why are you always changing the system architectures? You should leave what works and stay with that. I felt I was being recriminated for practising progress, perhaps, no I think Mark you need to start working on a digital fed amplifier, it's time.

Let Roger do his thing hes been around small room acoustics for over 50 years. His systems are like a cross of meridian and dynaudio on steroids,very very close to the Alcons 20 degrees of separation exactly and a much better ported sub. But Quested has listened and at the moment the speaker array in NAIAD is the reference application specific-wise.

We are all buddies but live and let live. These two moons will be the Alcons vs Quested challenge, certainly an important development since they are both within minutes of the Tampa Airport, one no longer need to Fly to Europe to understand what we are talking about, but also @Ced IA Twice , first with Datasat where the sound was great without dirac but it added a little extra separation engaged and second time with Trinnov, which we all heard, so this is bleeding edge stuff which i hope sparks some innovation in our American Based Systems. Specially since looks like a 20% tariff may be in the cards.

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post #218 of 316 Old 03-06-2017, 08:58 AM
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The 20% tariff is still just one of many Trump promises. It's unclear just where it might apply (one version was a 35% tariff on German-brand autos), and getting it through Congress is still an unknown. Especially since the Europeans might retaliate with tariffs on US-made goods. Way too early to seriously worry about it.

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Mark/Adam(by agreeing), you are beginning to sound like the Sales Manager at CAT, who at the shows would ask me Why are you always changing the system architectures? You should leave what works and stay with that. I felt I was being recriminated for practising progress, perhaps, no I think Mark you need to start working on a digital fed amplifier, it's time.
Exactly why I built a Lab, Peter. Most every weekend I am down there, playing with speaker locations. Initially, it was because I disagreed with Dolby's recommendations when Atmos was first released for the home, and I wanted the ability to test my ideas. It has been personally gratifying to see every iteration of Dolby's guidelines come closer to what my Lab was telling me. Of course, having a 32 channel Altitude in the Lab, and speakers on hooks and linear actuators makes experimenting much easier. I also have a QSC Qsys processor in the chain, so I can play with both Optimizer and my own DSP settings, which gives me a tremendous amount of flexibility.

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Now you need some ribbons!
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Now you need some ribbons!
Oh, rooms I've designed or calibrated have won plenty Best of Show, HToM, CEDIA, EH, EHX, THX certified rooms, etc.

edit: Hah, someone just suggested that you were talking about ribbon speakers, and not the ribbons dangling from your signature...

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post #222 of 316 Old 03-06-2017, 04:32 PM - Thread Starter
 
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exactly.HA HA HA! But thanks for sharing. IDNK Another Hoarder!

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post #223 of 316 Old 03-07-2017, 09:59 AM
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After reviewing with Walter I think having all the subs the same (both ported or sealed and same driver/output) will really help. Mark Seaton has developed a 12" deep, 18" driver DS18 that will fit in my side walls and match his front 18" driver subs.
My thoughts are to anchor the front sound stage with the The CRMS L,C,R crossed over to front Seatons, The RW and RFH would crossover into the R, CH to C and LW, and LFH into the L. This would provide integrated Alcons down to the 30-40Hz range for the front.
The Left and Right Heights and Surrounds would crossover into their respective L and R side subs in the 50-70hz range (need to understand the port tuning freq. of the CRS12's). With the extra 2 Sentinal channels I'm adding a CH and arrayed VOG's -back to back CRMSIW's.
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post #224 of 316 Old 03-09-2017, 06:17 AM
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2000 ft of speaker wire run, need to Order 600 more. Channel up for ceiling should start first layer 3/4" OSB today.
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I've been talking with Mark as well and am going to use the slim 18s for my room too. I think the above sounds like a great plan. Personally, I can't give up the sub 10hz content I've been used to for so many years with ten 21" sealed subs. So many trade offs that it basically comes down to making sacrifices based on personal preferences.
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post #226 of 316 Old 03-12-2017, 06:26 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I think it is very cool that we will get to compare subs in LOGE and NAIAD. At least we will have the benefit of transparency.
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post #227 of 316 Old 03-12-2017, 08:54 AM
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I think it is very cool that we will get to compare subs in LOGE and NAIAD. At least we will have the benefit of transparency.
It's nice to have something to balance the octave of bass extension you will be missing!
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post #228 of 316 Old 03-12-2017, 01:13 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Isn't that Octave going right out of the L shaped sliding doors? I thought it was...

And Mark you can ask Brad I told him I fully supported the decision to go with your subs, specially if you come down to tune it. At that time I may let you fiddle with the other alternative.

There are many things this system has going for it namely the controlled 90 degree dispersion, which allows for a 125 ms-175 livelier room acoustics..

But also let's not get bogged down with that specific octave. I want to know, Are there any current ATMOS tracks exploiting the sub-20 region? War Of The Worlds does not count nor shoot em up my favorite using the rotary sub.

And being that if I want to go down to DC am the type to use a rotary sub, we shouldn't just look at numbers. Much Like 4k on an LCOS looks like a vaseline job for those used to 2k DCI, or even 4k DCI. But you can have a better 2k image just depends on the design. The higher the MTF (and ANSI CR is a proxy for that) and colorimetry the better.

So I know quite well what it is to put a 5hz tone on a rotary woofer and it feels like having hurricane Andrew outside your house, but it is A NOVELTY. I did not miss that octave in the least bit in the 3 weeks I played with the Q's. Perhaps you will have a chance to compare and contrast both systems.

DIGITAL FEEDING is a night day difference with alcons and perhaps the reason their subs and tops sounded inferior to the digital channels, haze, headroom restraint, lack of cleanliness. Phantom believes the QSB's are cleaner than a stack of F2, ain't that a consideration in an squeaky clean Ribbon system?

So let's see. Nothing wrong in trying both out, I will be the first to validate your assertion , although probably both solutions will excell.

If we going to worry about numbers in IMMERSIVE CINEMA we have a lot to worry about in the channel sufficiency department.

Do you have the capabilities of measuring the LFE extension in this list?. That would be beneficial information.

Also what happen's if you drive the system really hard and realistic (loud) how do the subs hold off versus the sink cooled design? Because that impacts cleanliness BIG TIME. No?

Re Atmos LFE Range: If there ain't much below 20 then....you see my point. This is a reason why I stopped dwelling on using rotaries lately, because I spoke to the head of Atmos and the mixes are not supoosed to go below 20. We can ask him again at Cinemacon. But I really look forward to hearing your subs in LOGE.

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Brad has added a center height and a pair of arrayed vogs to adapt better to Arnaud's latest thinking in format agnostic layouts.

Also very important (sorry Murat we need to get you one more height center was unaware I was committing sacrilege when i designed Hyperion), but I have been handed the edict THAT IT IS A REALLY STUPID IDEA to use only 2 front Heights, a total mess, one needs to add the center if it is going to be worth the adding of heights effort. Sorry Just The Messenger. Brad got the same advice.
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post #230 of 316 Old 03-13-2017, 09:03 AM
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Quote:
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Isn't that Octave going right out of the L shaped sliding doors? I thought it was...

And Mark you can ask Brad I told him I fully supported the decision to go with your subs, specially of you come down to tune it. At that time I may let you fiddle with the other alternative.
Thank you Peter, and please realize that I believe most saw my post as made in jest and a fun jab. I awaited your response in defense of your latest focus or favorites. Surely with your flair for the sensational a little fun is in order lest we take ourselves to seriously.

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There are many things this system has going for it namely the controlled 90 degree dispersion, which allows for a 125 ms-175 livelier room acoustics..

But also let's not get bogged down with that specific octave. I want to know, Are there any current ATMOS tracks exploiting the sub-20 region? War Of The Worlds does not count nor shoot em up my favorite using the rotary sub.

And being that if I want to go down to DC am the type to use a rotary sub, we shouldn't just look at numbers. Much Like 4k on an LCOS looks like a vaseline job for those used to 2k DCI, or even 4k. But you can have a better 2k image just depends on the design. The higher the MTF and colorimetry the better.

So I know quite well what it is to put a 5hz tone on a rotary woofer and it feels like having hurricane Andrew outside your house, but it is A NOVELTY. I did not miss that octave in the least bit in the 3 weeks I played with the Q's. Perhaps you will have a chance to compare and contrast both systems.

DIGITAL FEEDING is a night day difference with alcons and perhaps the reason their subs and tops sounded inferior to the digital channels, haze, headroom restraint, lack of cleanliness. Phantom believes the QSB's are cleaner than a stack of F2, ain't that a consideration in an squeaky clean Ribbon system?

So let's see. Nothing wrong in trying both out, I will be the first to validate your assertion , although probably both solutions will excell.
I agree both systems should be excellent and highly enjoyable. I would suggest a deeper understanding of why you have possibly enjoyed the digital inputs more would open you to additional solutions and options. First, most high power, class D amplifiers are NOT power DACs. There are a few of these designs out there, where Tact had/has a few, Wadia demonstrated one monster and later offered very small versions, and I believe TI has a chipset for small amplifiers using this technique. In fact there is no direct benefit to having a digital input vs analog input to the amplifier itself. It is not the digital input at the amplifier you are liking, rather it is the digital input to the DSP in the amplifiers.

The elimination of an additional ADC step is the real benefit, particularly with full range speakers. The ADC is the step of the added DSP in the amplifier which has the most detrimental effect and can add background noise. My point here is that you should get similarly preferred results if you move the crossovers to the Trinnov and use an amplifier without DSP on the input. The catch of course is having a comparable crossover you can enter in the Trinnov rather than just a generic high/low pass and delay. For systems where going fully active from the Trinnov would use too many channels, that is where a digital input to a DSP in an amplifier for an active speaker can certainly be worthwhile.


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Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post
If we going to worry about numbers in IMMERSIVE CINEMA we have a lot to worry about in the channel sufficiency department.

Do you have the capabilities of measuring the LFE extension in this list?. That would be beneficial information.

Also what haven's if you drive the system really hard and realistic (loud) how do the subs hold off versus the sink cooled design? Because that impacts cleanliness BIG TIME.

Re Atmos LFE Range: If there ain't much below 20 then....you see my point. This is a reason why I stopped dwelling on using rotaries lately, because I spoke to the head of Atmos and the mixes are not supoosed to go below 20. We can ask him again at Cinemacon.
I was one of the early ones to experience the Thigpen TRW in a home. It easily lets us experiment and evaluate what's possible from lots of headroom at the lowest frequencies. It also still needs a full subwoofer compliment with it, and has many drawbacks to installation in the form of total space used, operational noise/noise floor, blending with conventional subs, and of course cost. It's important to note that in a fully enclosed room, the smaller the room, the less advantageous the TRW is vs conventional subwoofers. I would argue that in rooms under ~10,000 cu.ft., it's significantly more beneficial to the end bass performance and uniformity to use arrays of many sealed subwoofers rather than a couple subs with limited bass extension. You get the below 10Hz extension, tons of clean dynamic headroom, and uniform response across the seats at the same time. Any of the headroom from the higher efficiency subs is quickly negated with multiple units that deliver much more below 20Hz. You are correct that some of the biggest air-movers are not as articulate, clean and dynamic as the higher efficiency type designs like the big ported Volt drivers. Of course not all higher excursion drivers have those pitfalls. While I do recommend more boxes/drivers, they can typically be driven from only a few amplifier channels, keeping wiring and costs realistic. Looking at the acoustics, most benefit from driving groups of subwoofers at different areas with common signals. For someone so eager to place speakers everywhere in the room, I'm surprised you have been rather shy with the number of subwoofers you use in a space.

There is still plenty of <20Hz content coming out. Here are two quick examples of Atmos tracks that certainly benefit from deep extension. Hopefully Kaleidescape keeps moving forward with more 4k content with Atmos tracks as that chart shows the two don't always coincide.

Here is one of a few clips I recently saw posted of Deep Water Horizon's opening scene:


Here is one compilation someone did of Hacksaw Ridge comparing the digital signal to that measured in a few rooms with sealed subs that extend to ~5Hz:
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post #231 of 316 Old 03-13-2017, 09:57 AM
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I would suggest a deeper understanding of why you have possibly enjoyed the digital inputs more would open you to additional solutions and options. First, most high power, class D amplifiers are NOT power DACs. There are a few of these designs out there, where Tact had/has a few, Wadia demonstrated one monster and later offered very small versions, and I believe TI has a chipset for small amplifiers using this technique. In fact there is no direct benefit to having a digital input vs analog input to the amplifier itself. It is not the digital input at the amplifier you are liking, rather it is the digital input to the DSP in the amplifiers.

The elimination of an additional ADC step is the real benefit, particularly with full range speakers. The ADC is the step of the added DSP in the amplifier which has the most detrimental effect and can add background noise. My point here is that you should get similarly preferred results if you move the crossovers to the Trinnov and use an amplifier without DSP on the input. The catch of course is having a comparable crossover you can enter in the Trinnov rather than just a generic high/low pass and delay. For systems where going fully active from the Trinnov would use too many channels, that is where a digital input to a DSP in an amplifier for an active speaker can certainly be worthwhile.
I'm glad someone with your level of expertise points this out. I have mentioned it several times allready, but this misinformation keeps coming. Another "power dac" you didn't mention was the NAD M2 based on the Zetex chip set. Now NAD has moved on to nCore as it doesn't seem that direct digital input has any advantage over a dac and an analog input class D amplifier.
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It is not the digital input at the amplifier you are liking, rather it is the digital input to the DSP in the amplifiers.

The elimination of an additional ADC step is the real benefit, particularly with full range speakers. The ADC is the step of the added DSP in the amplifier which has the most detrimental effect and can add background noise. My point here is that you should get similarly preferred results if you move the crossovers to the Trinnov and use an amplifier without DSP on the input. The catch of course is having a comparable crossover you can enter in the Trinnov rather than just a generic high/low pass and delay. For systems where going fully active from the Trinnov would use too many channels, that is where a digital input to a DSP in an amplifier for an active speaker can certainly be worthwhile.
I've had this discussion with Peter,
I think it is most important (for the LOGE) with the Alcons. The DSP in the amps handle EQ and Crossovers along with the SIS optimization all stored presets for their different models (as I understand it).
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I agree as the amps are part of Alcons system approach.
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post #234 of 316 Old 03-13-2017, 01:39 PM
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I've had this discussion with Peter,
I think it is most important (for the LOGE) with the Alcons. The DSP in the amps handle EQ and Crossovers along with the SIS optimization all stored presets for their different models (as I understand it).
I agree, particularly with the approach Alcons takes. In their case you have specific driver EQ and crossover design work along with amplifier design that is part of what makes many of the models what they are. Again, the benefit is in these cases and comes from eliminating an additional A-D step at the amplifier. If the same crossover design was translated to the Trinnov *by Alcons* it could eliminate that need. I'm sure they like selling amplifiers and since you have the digital outputs available in this case, it makes for a great way to go.

For some other speaker models and designs, it is fully possible and some manufacturers have provided crossover settings to load in the Trinnov allowing you to use what ever amplifier is appropriate for your application and preference.
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If the same crossover design was translated to the Trinnov *by Alcons* it could eliminate that need.
I agree on the PEQ and Cross overs, I don't think the SIS could be done by Trinnov. When I discussed this with Tom he stressed this was a major part of their system design and allowes them to get 15 to 1 dynamic headroom (as apposed to typical 4-5 to 1)
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The AES connections are indeed especially important when matched up with pro-AV amps such as these Alcons ones; it really made a HUGE difference in our showroom-system (13.1(3) CRMSc / Datasat RS20i)... The slight amount of "hiss" / audible noise floor is now silenced off totally, and the overall crispiness really is at a whole new level. When testing regular XLR from the same preamp (Datasat RS20i) the difference is quite clear... Some hiss is very normal for pro-AV amps, not a specific Alcons issue. However, being able to avoid this hiss and still having all that power and total control over the drivers / speakers through the Alcons (SIS) system is really unique, just LOVE how the Alcons now sounds even better than ever before!! For consumer grade gear, however, balanced XLR should work fine and normally there is very little hiss or noise floor in my experience but I guess that depends on the amp being used for that particular sub.
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All the gain structure is done within the amp, so no chance to screw up things. Probably a smart move by Alcons.

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/diyau...structure.html
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Mark DWH and HR i saw those titles coming, amazing LFE extension indeed. My retiscence to use too many subwoofers is because when I packed 5 dual volts in moscow, and the ada=trinnov took a dive we hooked the system up with just 2 QSB-218 and it was perfectiion personified. I never used the word powerdac, have not used it since the TACT years. The digital feeding and having competent dsp, Walter analysed the Quested Digital Amp and says is essentially in the same league as the sentinels. Except the Q has Dante on board and is 4x8 matrix with 4 amps on board instead of 4 x 4 with 4. That eliminates the discusiion about sq of the mids and his being tamed by class d tonal peculiarities. Which is not evident a problem in alcons as their Mid and highs are superb. But as Jon sAYS THE CLEANLINESS of an all digital connection is a new benchmark, i have ati a/b with dynaudio and it is great , just can't play above reference, that is where the digital connection excells.

I just wish that Alcons, and so does Walter, had a more powerful option00000000 above the CRMS and below the CR3 which quite frankly needs more of a farfield situation like in HYPERION to Murat's seat. The crms 15 at cedia with the datasat played fine at ref plus 6, but it left me wanting for 2 more nothces (frustrating not being able to achieve perfection), you were in the room when we took the cr3 to reference plus 11 without any sign of distortion. I need something that would fit Brad's columns that goes to ref plus 9. In fact I will ask at CINEMACON.

As to my fascination with channel sufficiency, there is phiscs involved in the reason why I hear holes in the bubble, and want them plugged. The smaller the room with more than one seat the greater the channel count needed to hit the mlp in controlled directivity window.
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post #239 of 316 Old 03-14-2017, 09:10 AM
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Mark DWH and HR i saw those titles coming, amazing LFE extension indeed. My retiscence to use too many subwoofers is because when I packed 5 dual volts in moscow, and the ada=trinnov took a dive we hooked the system up with just 2 QSB-218 and it was perfectiion personified.
There are plenty more movies with significant content below 18-20Hz. Those were 2 easy examples I could find clear graphs of. More recently those looking at the deep bass content in movies are starting to just analyze the whole movie for peak content which tends to entirely miss the context of the content in a scene which is needed to see the value it adds. The VLF content punctuates the sounds and effects while adding scale, a sense of reality, and even subjective power without further cranking the SPL. Obviously you've experienced what the rotary TRW can do, but know a good deal of that can be delivered with conventional subwoofers.

Just because the 2 subs worked well in one instance, that doesn't mean more can't improve, as it is often hard to know what might be missing until you hear it. No question that four, efficient, low distortion, vented 18s in big boxes will impress. Add more rows and a larger listening area and you almost always need more to deliver that experience to more than a few seats. Add a dense enough array on the front wall and you can entirely eliminate the width and even vertical issues in the room, akin to a line or planar source. Just further food for thought.

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I never used the word powerdac, have not used it since the TACT years. The digital feeding and having competent dsp, Walter analysed the Quested Digital Amp and says is essentially in the same league as the sentinels. Except the Q has Dante on board and is 4x8 matrix with 4 amps on board instead of 4 x 4 with 4. That eliminates the discusiion about sq of the mids and his being tamed by class d tonal peculiarities. Which is not evident a problem in alcons as their Mid and highs are superb. But as Jon sAYS THE CLEANLINESS of an all digital connection is a new benchmark, i have ati a/b with dynaudio and it is great , just can't play above reference, that is where the digital connection excells.
I'm not picking on this, just wanting to keep from letting confusion spread. Here is why I made this mention and clarification (post from 2/03/17):
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https://www.facebook.com/mc2audio/vi...9092184839061/

https://www.facebook.com/mc2audio/vi...6479434433669/

Here is the Quested Digital POWERDAC brother being introed next week by Mc2. The quested will be profiled for each speaker bespokenly.

Interesting how for a 4 SKY Z setup the woofers can be driven by the class D amp and there are 4 outputs to drive another class a/b 4 channel quested amp for a more efficient AMT power match.

So The quested digital amp used with a slave 4 channel amp becomes a very practical option.
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post #240 of 316 Old 03-14-2017, 09:28 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Busted on the powerdac. too many long hours not enough sleep.

Hey of course I am speaking of one situation, not generically, but on the other hand such subwoofercentricity as you espouse promotes the use of limited range main spakers, or can be taken as such, by the fact that most people cutoff at 80, nissing crucial directional cues. I have been grwong my system based on down to 32hz on all channels, and I enjoy it quite a bit better, i find i get better lf by loading the bass from many points in the room. Nothing wrong with that.

Subwoofer technology is a science going back at least to the seventies, when I sat in front row facing a hornloaded behemoth in EARTHQUAKE, also going to clubs in miami in the nineties and passing in front of a giant woofer would create damage, so Im not in a lot of need to push the envelope paST THE POINT OF THE BEST i HAVE HEARD. CHANNEL SUFFICIENCY IS ANOTHER MATTER, one where i have been following the research intently over 4 decades, and even deigned 16 channel systems with the original 861 which came with labels for multichannel audio (including the DTS-X32B channels-labelled Floor), and then was left up to dry by Bob Stuart who did not continue the AURORA immersive audio project, in favor of developing a far more profitable MLP. Fvcker sold out, and left my moons hanging.
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