8 people needed to demo high-performance multi-channel amplifier and provide feedback - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 60 Old 12-27-2016, 07:49 PM - Thread Starter
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8 people needed to demo high-performance multi-channel amplifier and provide feedback

So I'm helping-out some friends in the industry with some marketing ideas and have managed to generate a pretty fun opportunity for 8 people globally (I already have 2 takers here in the US).

Here are the specifics:

1.)The actual global total is 10 persons/systems that will do this (5 in the US, 5 from the rest of the world). I need 3 more people from the US that have high-performance systems in well-setup rooms (I will have to do some vetting, sorry) that are willing to try-out a high-performance multi-channel amplifier and post their feedback here on AVS. The operative word there was feedback- not looking for rubber-stamp here, these folks are looking for honesty. So if there are shortcomings be sure to mention them.

2.)The idea here is no-cost to the people providing this feedback for this. Essentially people will be "loaned" the amplifiers to try and post about for an indefinite period of time, and when the manufacturer decides it's time to end the program either they will sell the amp to the person that has it (at a discount to be protected by strict NDA) or it will be returned and sold as demo/b-stock.

3.)Some info about what it is that is being sought-after: people and rooms that know good sound. Someone that can effectively describe what they experience in their system playing (not limited to: Blu-ray, UHD, vinyl, CD, etc.). Someone that has high-quality (reference capable, not necessarily crazy $$$) passive loudspeakers, acoustic treatments of some kind, a quality room. Something that other people on these forums would look at as being a benchmark for performance.

4.)Dealers and Reps need-not-apply. Sorry guys, but the rep-network is currently being worked-on, and as much as there are a ton of great guys that sell this stuff and be capable of neutrality- you might have a "skin in the game". The feedback posted needs to be as close to perfectly unbiased as possible, and well sometimes dealers can be a bit zealous for their respective brands ( I know I have been in the past).

To recap: 10 people globally with pretty badass-systems are going to be able to "borrow" a high-performance multi-channel amplifier at no cost to them, the only requirement being that they promise to post feedback online and be honest with their thoughts and discussions. I'll be posting this exact same thing on a couple other forums as well to try to fill-in the slots because only 10 amplifiers are being allocated for this program and once they are gone, that is it. At the moment, my thoughts are to post this same offer at AVForums and What's Best Forums, any other suggestions?

I'm happy to field offers as I'm sure there are probably plenty of folks willing to try out high end gear for free- but please understand that I'll have to vet the systems and rooms, so there may be some disappointments if people are not chosen (I'm not the one choosing, but I will make suggestions).

Thanks for taking the time, and please let me know where you think the most effective forums are to post to find my 5 trans-global candidates.

Dan
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post #2 of 60 Old 12-27-2016, 08:23 PM
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I would love to be accepted to do this but I know my system would not be acceptable. But I do at this time have a Theta Dreadnaught D, and the brand new ATI 528 and shortly a 523 that I am comparing. My speakers are Diy two way monitors that have all premium parts. Each one cost over a grand just in parts. I don't have vinyl at this time however.

I actually love doing these kinds of comparisons. And have lots of friends that would enjoy it also.

So I would love to hear thoughts from the people that do get selected.

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JVC RS4810 projector Stewart Cima 115" 2.35 screen, ATI 523 and 528 amps
7 mirror imaged 2 way DIY monitors. All matched to within 1db. All parts matched, 1 SVS SB16 ultra subwoofer
Emotiva XMC-1 processor Marantz UD5007 Bluray player
Furman sequencer ran off of a double 50amp breaker,Furman power conditioner
All in a dedicated 15x22x8 foot dedicated home theater.
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post #3 of 60 Old 12-27-2016, 08:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rhale64L7 View Post
I would love to be accepted to do this but I know my system would not be acceptable. But I do at this time have a Theta Dreadnaught D, and the brand new ATI 528 and shortly a 523 that I am comparing. My speakers are Diy two way monitors that have all premium parts. Each one cost over a grand just in parts. I don't have vinyl at this time however.

I actually love doing these kinds of comparisons. And have lots of friends that would enjoy it also.

So I would love to hear thoughts from the people that do get selected.

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You shouldn't necessarily rule yourself out, by-all-means send me a complete system description and some info about the room- the more diverse the sample of people can be (and systems/rooms) the better. Definitely send me info on those speakers.

thanks

Dan

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post #4 of 60 Old 12-27-2016, 10:07 PM
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OK my room is a fully treated room. My room is setup more for home theater than for two channel. It has first reflection points and second reflection points taken care of. I have diffusers on the back wall and towards the rear of the side walls. The ceiling has been treated. My soffits are fully bass trapped. Along with all corners.

I am using a double 50 amp breaker into a Furman sequencer that is then converted to 10 20 amp outlets. These run all my components so everything is on a common ground.

My components are an Emotiva XMC1 processor using Dirac. Marantz UD 5007 Blu-ray player, and the aforementioned amps at my disposal.
My speakers are two way 60 lb monitors using Usher 8945p midrange and the ScanSpeak Discovery tweeter. They are passively crossed over using mundorf, and Mills resistors, Clarity so ESA caps bypassed with MR series caps. They are internally wired with Neotech ohno cast wire. The binding posts are solid copper. They are voiced by me. I had help from Jay Kim.

I am going to send some pics of the crossovers and spkrs and room. Note that the crossovers in my mains look slightly different since these photos. All 4 of my surround speakers look exactly like the photos. My front three have been modified with the upgraded caps and resistor's.




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JVC RS4810 projector Stewart Cima 115" 2.35 screen, ATI 523 and 528 amps
7 mirror imaged 2 way DIY monitors. All matched to within 1db. All parts matched, 1 SVS SB16 ultra subwoofer
Emotiva XMC-1 processor Marantz UD5007 Bluray player
Furman sequencer ran off of a double 50amp breaker,Furman power conditioner
All in a dedicated 15x22x8 foot dedicated home theater.
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post #5 of 60 Old 12-27-2016, 10:17 PM
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Well for some reason it isn't letting me post anymore pics.

I can say that I own the new SVS SB-16 ultra sub also. My room has been set up using Rew. Then Dirac is being used.

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JVC RS4810 projector Stewart Cima 115" 2.35 screen, ATI 523 and 528 amps
7 mirror imaged 2 way DIY monitors. All matched to within 1db. All parts matched, 1 SVS SB16 ultra subwoofer
Emotiva XMC-1 processor Marantz UD5007 Bluray player
Furman sequencer ran off of a double 50amp breaker,Furman power conditioner
All in a dedicated 15x22x8 foot dedicated home theater.
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post #6 of 60 Old 12-27-2016, 10:23 PM
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. Trying some more photos.

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JVC RS4810 projector Stewart Cima 115" 2.35 screen, ATI 523 and 528 amps
7 mirror imaged 2 way DIY monitors. All matched to within 1db. All parts matched, 1 SVS SB16 ultra subwoofer
Emotiva XMC-1 processor Marantz UD5007 Bluray player
Furman sequencer ran off of a double 50amp breaker,Furman power conditioner
All in a dedicated 15x22x8 foot dedicated home theater.
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post #7 of 60 Old 12-27-2016, 10:32 PM
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Also I am using Kimber Kable spkr wires. Straight Wire Virtuoso R and Neotech balanced interconnect cables.

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JVC RS4810 projector Stewart Cima 115" 2.35 screen, ATI 523 and 528 amps
7 mirror imaged 2 way DIY monitors. All matched to within 1db. All parts matched, 1 SVS SB16 ultra subwoofer
Emotiva XMC-1 processor Marantz UD5007 Bluray player
Furman sequencer ran off of a double 50amp breaker,Furman power conditioner
All in a dedicated 15x22x8 foot dedicated home theater.
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post #8 of 60 Old 12-28-2016, 02:36 AM
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I might be interested but would need 15 channels of amplification. Currently running 7.1.8, with Aerial speakers (assorted) and 2 Aerial Subs. The room is treated but will be under going a acoustical treatment makeover. Current amps are 2 Theta Dreads. Current processor is Altitude.
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post #9 of 60 Old 12-28-2016, 06:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Lon, I'll see what can be done about a single person with a 2-amp allocation. You might have to "count" for 2 people; which means you'd be responsible for twice as much feedback as everyone else


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post #10 of 60 Old 12-28-2016, 07:00 PM
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Quote:
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Lon, I'll see what can be done about a single person with a 2-amp allocation. You might have to "count" for 2 people; which means you'd be responsible for twice as much feedback as everyone else


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Believe me Lon will have no problem giving double the feedback or more of anyone else!!!@!@

Folks, I can't reveal my secret knowledge, other than to say the gear involved may well be the very top of the line multi-channel amps you can find anywhere in the Universe!

Unfortunately, as I have 5 channel monoblocks, I would have to do recabling, etc to use one multi-channel amp for my 5 main speakers. too much work as well as expense. I am so happy with my 5 Prometheus monoblocks! And lifting a 150? pound behometh may well ruin my one hip that's been replaced and also cause me to need the other hip and my knees replaced. So I gotta bug out (here's where Thezaks/Dave tells me he'll come over and do all the lifting. HA!)

Lon, isn't it time for you to move into some real "heavy" music & movie subwoofers, like the two JL Audio f212s Craig/VGI got me a great deal on a few years ago. No comparison to the Aerial subs, seriously! Its time!

You mean you don't remember me? Back 1999 - 2003, I started and moderated the AVS Tweaks forum and also the AVS Special Guests forum.

My home theater at:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1158431
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post #11 of 60 Old 12-28-2016, 07:17 PM
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Wow! Steve you know about these amps huh,? I am now set up for doing this test. I would not be in a week. I have given lots of feedback on amps, that has been used by the manufacturer. I would be glad to do it again. Either good or bad. And I promise that my speakers are as resolving as any others. I sure wish I could post pics of my crossovers.

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JVC RS4810 projector Stewart Cima 115" 2.35 screen, ATI 523 and 528 amps
7 mirror imaged 2 way DIY monitors. All matched to within 1db. All parts matched, 1 SVS SB16 ultra subwoofer
Emotiva XMC-1 processor Marantz UD5007 Bluray player
Furman sequencer ran off of a double 50amp breaker,Furman power conditioner
All in a dedicated 15x22x8 foot dedicated home theater.
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post #12 of 60 Old 12-28-2016, 07:32 PM
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. Trying again.

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JVC RS4810 projector Stewart Cima 115" 2.35 screen, ATI 523 and 528 amps
7 mirror imaged 2 way DIY monitors. All matched to within 1db. All parts matched, 1 SVS SB16 ultra subwoofer
Emotiva XMC-1 processor Marantz UD5007 Bluray player
Furman sequencer ran off of a double 50amp breaker,Furman power conditioner
All in a dedicated 15x22x8 foot dedicated home theater.
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post #13 of 60 Old 12-28-2016, 07:39 PM
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Trying crossovers again

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JVC RS4810 projector Stewart Cima 115" 2.35 screen, ATI 523 and 528 amps
7 mirror imaged 2 way DIY monitors. All matched to within 1db. All parts matched, 1 SVS SB16 ultra subwoofer
Emotiva XMC-1 processor Marantz UD5007 Bluray player
Furman sequencer ran off of a double 50amp breaker,Furman power conditioner
All in a dedicated 15x22x8 foot dedicated home theater.
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post #14 of 60 Old 12-28-2016, 07:39 PM
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JVC RS4810 projector Stewart Cima 115" 2.35 screen, ATI 523 and 528 amps
7 mirror imaged 2 way DIY monitors. All matched to within 1db. All parts matched, 1 SVS SB16 ultra subwoofer
Emotiva XMC-1 processor Marantz UD5007 Bluray player
Furman sequencer ran off of a double 50amp breaker,Furman power conditioner
All in a dedicated 15x22x8 foot dedicated home theater.
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post #15 of 60 Old 12-28-2016, 07:42 PM
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close up of speaker. All 7 speakers are the same. They are mirror imaged pairs. Matched to within 1db. All components have been custom selected to match perfectly. Imaging is incredible.

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JVC RS4810 projector Stewart Cima 115" 2.35 screen, ATI 523 and 528 amps
7 mirror imaged 2 way DIY monitors. All matched to within 1db. All parts matched, 1 SVS SB16 ultra subwoofer
Emotiva XMC-1 processor Marantz UD5007 Bluray player
Furman sequencer ran off of a double 50amp breaker,Furman power conditioner
All in a dedicated 15x22x8 foot dedicated home theater.
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post #16 of 60 Old 12-29-2016, 06:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post
Believe me Lon will have no problem giving double the feedback or more of anyone else!!!@!@

Folks, I can't reveal my secret knowledge, other than to say the gear involved may well be the very top of the line multi-channel amps you can find anywhere in the Universe!

Unfortunately, as I have 5 channel monoblocks, I would have to do recabling, etc to use one multi-channel amp for my 5 main speakers. too much work as well as expense. I am so happy with my 5 Prometheus monoblocks! And lifting a 150? pound behometh may well ruin my one hip that's been replaced and also cause me to need the other hip and my knees replaced. So I gotta bug out (here's where Thezaks/Dave tells me he'll come over and do all the lifting. HA!)

Lon, isn't it time for you to move into some real "heavy" music & movie subwoofers, like the two JL Audio f212s Craig/VGI got me a great deal on a few years ago. No comparison to the Aerial subs, seriously! Its time!
Steve:

Thanks for the kind words, I think . Ill look into JL's but have been very happy with the Aerial subs
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post #17 of 60 Old 12-29-2016, 09:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LJG View Post
Steve:

Thanks for the kind words, I think . Ill look into JL's but have been very happy with the Aerial subs
Multiply your happiness by LOTS!!!@@ JL's are the beast. I'm so glad VGI/Craig Shumer "talked" me into these dual 12" woofer JL Audio f212 subs a few years back. You will wonder why you upgraded everything but your subs!

You mean you don't remember me? Back 1999 - 2003, I started and moderated the AVS Tweaks forum and also the AVS Special Guests forum.

My home theater at:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1158431
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post #18 of 60 Old 12-29-2016, 05:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Ok Steve, I can appreciate your zeal for the JL, I prefer other subwoofer options myself. Perhaps I've never heard them setup properly- it's always been at a trade show like Cedia or CES. They always had a one-note sound to me and always seemed a tad sluggish (but I've felt that way about that style JL driver-ever since the W7 was released).

Getting back on track:
I currently have the following people interested in participating

US
perfectionist2 (1)
rhale64L7 (1)
LJG (2)
cannga (1)

ROW

windshear


Dan



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post #19 of 60 Old 12-29-2016, 05:37 PM
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why do some place the center speaker forward of L/R and others place it behind?

Power: Marantz sr7008, NAD C 275Bee x 2, Video: Oppo 103, Samsung 75un6300
Speakers: Focal aria 948, Focal cc900, Klipsch synergy KSF 10.5 Subs: Rythmik FV25HP, Rythmik FV15HP
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post #20 of 60 Old 12-29-2016, 06:07 PM
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We have a bunch of audio enthusiasts coming to Kansas City (50ish) for a home theater crawl in Kansas City in February. We are touring local theaters on Saturday and doing a subwoofer shootout and blind amp comparison on Sunday with some guys staying into Monday. There would be exposure to 50 avsforum members from all over the US and we'd only need it for a weekend if you wanted to repurpose. If interested let me know.

Here is the event thread I am organizing with the local hosts:
February 2017 - Kansas City Home Theater Crawl

It could probably be implemented in the host home if your choice for the actual crawl, and used in an AVR vs amplifier face off the next day.

I've participated in and hosted quite a few full scale avsforum meets so I'm vetted in this space and trustworthy. I trust all the guys who are volunteered hosts for our upcoming meet as well FWIW.

My audio experiences in the last five years or so. (This list is subwoofer centric because that arena is my long standing keenest interest, but it lists other events I've hosted and attended at the bottom with links to my reviews of equipment at those events.
The Subwoofer Recommendation by Pricepoint Thread.
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----------------------------------------
February 2017 - Kansas City Home Theater Crawl

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post #21 of 60 Old 12-29-2016, 06:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Thank you for the heads-up. I will see what can be done .

Thanks


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post #22 of 60 Old 01-03-2017, 08:27 AM
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i would be interested but have the following questions as i live in canada

1-how do you handle delivery? it is always a problem with customs as you need to declare the item value for insurance.
2-if i dont buy the item, are you covering the return shipping costs?

i use a 7.1 system with BW nautilus series speakers and curently doing reviews for a local magazine.

let me know
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post #23 of 60 Old 01-04-2017, 02:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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i would be interested but have the following questions as i live in canada

1-how do you handle delivery? it is always a problem with customs as you need to declare the item value for insurance.
2-if i dont buy the item, are you covering the return shipping costs?

i use a 7.1 system with BW nautilus series speakers and curently doing reviews for a local magazine.

let me know
Answers:
1.) Freight will be handled by the manufacturer (both ways), as will customs, etc. Since these are units that are "on loan" I don't think there are many issues with importation- just paperwork. Now if money changes hands, then these details will be worked out.
2.) Partially answered by 1, but you will not incur costs for using the amplifier- but please realize that the fundamental agreement is that feedback is posted; people are not being sent amplifiers to use and then provide no feedback....

please PM with a bit more information about the system and room- treatments, pictures, equipment list, etc.

thank you for your interest.

Dan

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post #24 of 60 Old 01-04-2017, 02:40 PM
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Dan

This seems weird to me. Are you luring people into a Test of products your trying to sell them ?

So lets be straight with everyone here. You are talking about SAE's 8 Channel Amplifier correct ?

Why the secret behind all this and not to disclose that its SAE your speaking of ?

You do know this is designed and built by Morris Kessler at the ATI factory right ?

Why the secrecy and this approach ?

Myself and many others are confused by this approach and its not very ethical.

Craig

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President of Theatermax LLC
www.theatermax.com
Theta Digital, Trinnov, Datasat, Ayre, Sonus Faber, Aurender, ATI, Cardas, Melco Etc...

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post #25 of 60 Old 01-04-2017, 03:19 PM
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I don't think Dan meant to "fool" anyone - I think he was trying to avoid a problem with the forum itself in mentioning the multi-channel amp brand involved. However, I don't think that stating that the amp is SAE and retails for $16,000 msrp (8 channels) is violating forum rules any more than perhaps this thread alone is already doing!

Actually, more than a month ago Dan called and we had a nice chat about the SAE multi-channel amplifier. I told him I wasn't interested, too expensive even at dealer cost, and too heavy for my getting older body, knees and hips!

Around the same time, I talked with Craig/VGI to order stuff for my Dolby Atmos upgrade. We discussed the range of multi-channel amps available - pricewise, ATI Class D by far the lowest price with great sonics; ATI Signature 6000 Class AB; then Theta Dreadnaught D; and then SAE (essentially an ATI 6000 on steroids with better parts) at about twice the price of the Dreadnaught D and four times the price of the ATI Class D. Obviously, for Dolby Atmos, we didn't fell that I needed anything more than the ATI Class D!

Whether or not anyone who demos the amps actually ends up buying one is yet to be determined. I mean, even at dealer cost, one of the SAE multi-channel amps is still quite expensive! Although if you can afford it, go for it!!@@@

You mean you don't remember me? Back 1999 - 2003, I started and moderated the AVS Tweaks forum and also the AVS Special Guests forum.

My home theater at:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1158431
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post #26 of 60 Old 01-04-2017, 06:59 PM
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In regards to post 24 above I think a glance at John 8:7 might be of interest.

I myself have to come to it more than not.
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post #27 of 60 Old 01-04-2017, 07:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Craig,

I am selling nothing. I have zero horse in this game other than friends involved with the company, and the fact that this marketing exercise was my idea. You see- I am not employed-by, a dealer-of, or owner of- SAE product. BUT, I was meeting with the folks involved with the rollout of this gear a few weeks ago over some beers and this concept of "trickle some product into the market and get the market's reaction" came up. Instead of forcing people to buy a beta-test unit, the idea is that you're going to have some section of your inventory that is allocated for marketing (trade show units, etc.) so why not let real consumers use these units for a certain period of time? It HAS to be more effective than sending marketing units to dealers- you see, if someone like Steve gets one at no cost and says "it's great! it sounds better than anything I've ever used!" that is going to carry more weight with other consumers than you saying the same thing- because Steve gets nothing out of it, unlike a dealer such as yourself (who obviously wants to sell these things).

Instead of getting all bent out of shape, perhaps you should look at the long-game here: If, in fact, SAE amplifiers are significantly better than what you currently sell, wouldn't this exercise create more market demand for a dealer such as yourself? And do you really think that you wouldn't be a dealer? Your name has already been mentioned as one of those "must-have" dealers.

I have two reasons for not mentioning the manufacturer's name:

1.) Bias- I wanted to create no bias whatsoever regarding the brand- the idea being that if anyone were offered the opportunity to essentially play with a high quality piece of gear (for no cost to them other than time posting feedback), would they? And, regardless of who made it, would the feedback be worthwhile? That "worthwhile" part is why the specific people chosen to participate need to have what can be considered "benchmark" systems and rooms- something that will be an effective tool to evaluate the performance of the equipment.

2.) To prevent the inevitable "it's just a ______ with a different faceplate, and priced at... You can get XYZ amplifier cheaper and it will sound the same..." commentary from, well to be quite honest- dealers like you. You see, regardless of how respected a dealer may be, ultimately there is the underlying motivation to sell a certain product whether it is the product in question or a competitor. THAT, is exactly why the statement "dealers and sales reps need-not-apply".

So, by all means, please explain to me how asking for people to try amplifiers at no cost to them for some undetermined period of time is unethical? Explain to me how limiting the request for market feedback to actual consumers instead of inherently biased dealers is unethical? After all, in my mind- doing just that gives everyone a higher probability of receiving as un-colored feedback on this product as possible.

Why does it matter what the company is? You see, if the consumer doesn't know what they are getting (like a blind taste test) they can't have a prejudice. So how is it that NOT naming the company or amplifier specifications (especially price) is unethical? As has already been discussed, the specific units in question would be allocated as marketing units, so they would ultimately be sold as B-stock anyway. And once again:

YOU, AS A DEALER WILL ULTIMATELY BENEFIT FROM THIS EXERCISE, BECAUSE IT CREATES A REAL MARKET DEMAND BECAUSE OF PERFORMANCE FEEDBACK, NOT AN ARTIFICIAL ONE CAUSED BY PRICE.

So do I find it offensive that you would accuse me of being unethical? yes I do. I've participated here for the better part of the past 15+ years, feel free to search every post I've made and find anything but integrity. And while you're in Vegas for CES, feel free to ask anyone with ATI whether I have anything to do with SAE other than knowing the people involved. Like I said in my very first post of this thread- this is to help out some friends with a product I think is pretty worthwhile.
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post #28 of 60 Old 01-05-2017, 03:21 AM
 
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Well I will start creating the Bias for the Brand, is the best freaking amp I heard next to the D'agostino. They had a mobile booth over at Gary Reber Auro recording and that amp sounded so warm and snappy, and I fell in LOVE.

I told Brian If i ever get the chance to stack a premium amp rack again that is what I would use. How is that for contamination of the statistical sample's bias, Dan?

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post #29 of 60 Old 01-05-2017, 07:47 AM
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Peace (to both Dan and Craig) - this is really no big deal and does seem to benefit all parties. I don't see much of a problem - no brand, no model, no price mentioned (up until now that is lol). It's a chance for forum members to try out free of charge one of the greatest amps on the market - fun and "educational."

I absolutely love it to find out that this is the crown jewel of ATI that I would be doing the comparison against if selected. I always want to hear Kessler's design; as a teenager I would stand drooling over those SAE's with numerous red lights.

For my case it would be a 2 channel shootout against very powerful and worthy competitors: Krell FPB 600 and Classe CA 400, as well as Krell multi channel KAV 500. I might even throw in my tube VTL for good measure.

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post #30 of 60 Old 01-05-2017, 10:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanFrancis View Post
Craig,

I am selling nothing. I have zero horse in this game other than friends involved with the company, and the fact that this marketing exercise was my idea. You see- I am not employed-by, a dealer-of, or owner of- SAE product. BUT, I was meeting with the folks involved with the rollout of this gear a few weeks ago over some beers and this concept of "trickle some product into the market and get the market's reaction" came up. Instead of forcing people to buy a beta-test unit, the idea is that you're going to have some section of your inventory that is allocated for marketing (trade show units, etc.) so why not let real consumers use these units for a certain period of time? It HAS to be more effective than sending marketing units to dealers- you see, if someone like Steve gets one at no cost and says "it's great! it sounds better than anything I've ever used!" that is going to carry more weight with other consumers than you saying the same thing- because Steve gets nothing out of it, unlike a dealer such as yourself (who obviously wants to sell these things).

Instead of getting all bent out of shape, perhaps you should look at the long-game here: If, in fact, SAE amplifiers are significantly better than what you currently sell, wouldn't this exercise create more market demand for a dealer such as yourself? And do you really think that you wouldn't be a dealer? Your name has already been mentioned as one of those "must-have" dealers.

I have two reasons for not mentioning the manufacturer's name:

1.) Bias- I wanted to create no bias whatsoever regarding the brand- the idea being that if anyone were offered the opportunity to essentially play with a high quality piece of gear (for no cost to them other than time posting feedback), would they? And, regardless of who made it, would the feedback be worthwhile? That "worthwhile" part is why the specific people chosen to participate need to have what can be considered "benchmark" systems and rooms- something that will be an effective tool to evaluate the performance of the equipment.

2.) To prevent the inevitable "it's just a ______ with a different faceplate, and priced at... You can get XYZ amplifier cheaper and it will sound the same..." commentary from, well to be quite honest- dealers like you. You see, regardless of how respected a dealer may be, ultimately there is the underlying motivation to sell a certain product whether it is the product in question or a competitor. THAT, is exactly why the statement "dealers and sales reps need-not-apply".

So, by all means, please explain to me how asking for people to try amplifiers at no cost to them for some undetermined period of time is unethical? Explain to me how limiting the request for market feedback to actual consumers instead of inherently biased dealers is unethical? After all, in my mind- doing just that gives everyone a higher probability of receiving as un-colored feedback on this product as possible.

Why does it matter what the company is? You see, if the consumer doesn't know what they are getting (like a blind taste test) they can't have a prejudice. So how is it that NOT naming the company or amplifier specifications (especially price) is unethical? As has already been discussed, the specific units in question would be allocated as marketing units, so they would ultimately be sold as B-stock anyway. And once again:

YOU, AS A DEALER WILL ULTIMATELY BENEFIT FROM THIS EXERCISE, BECAUSE IT CREATES A REAL MARKET DEMAND BECAUSE OF PERFORMANCE FEEDBACK, NOT AN ARTIFICIAL ONE CAUSED BY PRICE.

So do I find it offensive that you would accuse me of being unethical? yes I do. I've participated here for the better part of the past 15+ years, feel free to search every post I've made and find anything but integrity. And while you're in Vegas for CES, feel free to ask anyone with ATI whether I have anything to do with SAE other than knowing the people involved. Like I said in my very first post of this thread- this is to help out some friends with a product I think is pretty worthwhile.

DAN

Thank you very much for the detailed update.. Please don't take what I wrote negatively as I know you meant well but I was upset and I will tell you why.

I had 2 clients of mine getting ready to purchase Amps such as Dreadnaught D's and others all made by Morris of course . When they read this post they completely stopped their orders thinking there was a Holy Grail Amplifier coming out. Please put yourself in my shoes.

Not explaining that the Mysterious Amp was 16K retail also takes people and gets them excited about a product that's possibly way out of their price range.

The Concept of what your doing is actually Genius and I love the enthusiasm and in all reality I am super psyched to get people excited with you about great new products that benefit Morris/ATI and potentially dealers such as myself and others. You probably know that Morris is very dear to me and I want nothing more than to see his success continue. He provides the most amazing amp solutions at incredible prices and continues to blow our minds everyday with the new NC500 line of amps he released recently.

I had my hands on these SAE units at Cedia and their build quality and design is over the top amazing. They are awesome in design and build quality and theres no question that there are customers that will want these monster amps.

Dan , Please accept my apologies for coming off upset with your post but when I have clients cancelling orders because they see this offering of a secret new amp, it was just a little off key for me.

When it turns out to be a brand which I am 100% behind along with you, it was just bizarre. I know Brian is working hard to get this amp into the marketplace and rightfully so. Im certain that its in the top Amps ever produced as I know how great the 6000 Signature is.

Between the Dreadnaught D and the new ATI NCore Class D's and the Sig 6000 and the SAE 8300 Amps we are talking about its incredible that all of this comes out of Morris's Building. He has done what ever other company in the industry wishes they could do. He is producing amazing world class products at affordable prices that work so well and fit every price point.

I am in my glory that I get to represent these brands everyday and offer people such an amazing range of products for any level of buyer.

Please call me next week to say hello and please if I can help you with any of your ideas, just ask.

Have a Happy and Healthy New year !

Thanks
Craig

Craig Shumer
20 Years of Audio Video Excellence
President of Theatermax LLC
www.theatermax.com
Theta Digital, Trinnov, Datasat, Ayre, Sonus Faber, Aurender, ATI, Cardas, Melco Etc...
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