Please help me understand the Hierarchy of Barco's Digital Projection projectors - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 26 Unread 02-05-2017, 08:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Please help me understand the Hierarchy of Barco's Digital Projection projectors

I have been trying to buy a used Bacro/Digital Projection unit or a similar $60k+ unit.
I had another thread, where fellow members made some informative suggestions.
I thought i would start a new thread because I would like to know more about about DPI projectors, just so that I can learn about the hierarchy of model numbers. It has not been easy to figure out which dlp chip is being used in some models. Some times, it is listed. Other times it is not.. dark chip3, 4 etc.. I assume darkchip4 is the last 1080p chip?
I would like to know whether the Titan reference is better or worse than the dpi f82 (not buying the broken one currently on ebay. Those seem to be bad units with possibly broken DLP wheels - Thanks Ccooley for the caution!).
Also, he told me that the newest is not the best.. Good to know. He is right. The dpi 930 is rated at 2000:1 contrast, even though it is later than the Titan reference.
Hence, I am trying to figure out the optimal model numbers for home theatre use.

Also, I am confused by the contrast numbers listed on their site. F82 lists contrast at 15000:1 on/off. Is this a real number? As opposed to Titan reference 3D at 5000:1.

ccooley was kind enough to offer some guidance.. I appreciate it.. But I didn't want to bother him with more emails.
Any other guidance would be appreciated.

Thank you.

Last edited by audvid; 02-05-2017 at 08:18 AM.
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post #2 of 26 Unread 02-05-2017, 06:21 PM
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To answer one of your questions, the F82 is listed as 15000:1 because it has a dynamic iris that can be used and this is how it achieves a 15000:1 contrast ratio. I haven't measured native contrast on this unit yet.

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post #3 of 26 Unread 02-05-2017, 09:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Glad you bought it. How is the picture? What's the non dynamic contrast in this?
Is this unit better than the titan reference 3d?
Thanks
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post #4 of 26 Unread 02-06-2017, 08:27 AM
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These are actually Projection Design Projectors, PD was acquired by Barco, to cover the smaller unit markets, like simulation and HT. The F90 was the first product from the joint development team, followed by the F70. Barco is selling these DLPs to the simulation market, that traditionally saw mostly LCoS.

Have never seen the higher number PD projectors, at ISE the last I remember seeing was the F32?
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post #5 of 26 Unread 02-06-2017, 09:07 AM
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Yup, the Titan Ref 660 3D is a DPI (Digital Projection) PJ. My Titan 660 had CR was measured at 4652 IIRC, it is a high contrast model. I was getting about 3200 lum. calibrated (rated at 5000). Excellent PQ, incredible 3D (probably still the best I've seen), great HT projector. I decided to move to a 4K unit, got the Sony 5000 for now, offered the Titan for sale, currently negotiating in a $8000 - $9000 price range with a buyer (I don't like holding used gear for long). I share that only to indicate what I'm finding in the way of offers in the current market.





Jim
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post #6 of 26 Unread 02-06-2017, 09:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JlgLaw View Post
Yup, the Titan Ref 660 3D is a DPI (Digital Projection) PJ. Jim
Thanks for the info. Is the DPI F82 above in hierarchy/capabilities or below the titan 600 reference 3D. The F82 claims 10000 lumens with 2 bulbs and 15000:1 contrast, vis the 600's at 5000:1.
I found a site with list prices of DPI.
The list price of the 600 seems to be around $60k and the list price of F82 is, I think, lower.

Please make a comment about your comparative opinion of the 2k picture on your Titan Vs Sony 5000.

Thank you.

Last edited by audvid; 02-06-2017 at 10:00 AM.
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post #7 of 26 Unread 02-06-2017, 01:22 PM
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You are referencing the "DPI" F82. DPI is Digital Projection, Inc., they do not manufacture the F82, as noted above, that is a "Projection Design" model (maybe a Barco model, but manufactured by PD), not DPI. I have no experience with any of the PD projectors (including the Barco versions), so cannot comment on where they place in the chain of values (both visually and cost) vis-a-vis the Titan Ref 660 made by DPI. If you want to use only the specs you noted to judge the two projectors, then according to those specs, and assuming you need that light output, the F82 would win. If you want you judge based on the actual image produced on screen, then obviously you either need to find a way to make that happen for yourself, or find someone that has seen both models, unfortunately I have not.

I was very happy with the DPI Titan Ref 660, I liked the light, clarity, color accuracy, uniformity, and 3D support. It was a great projector to my eyes, BUT, I needed to move to 4K, wanted it to be laser, and decided not to wait for a reasonably priced unit from DPI. Having seen the Sony 5000, I decided that would be the next PJ in my setup. You can visit the two main 5000 threads in this sub-forum, all the positive reasons are listed there, it just so many things well. It is an excellent PJ at that price point, one of the best images I've had in my theater. I do however think the Titan handled motion just a little better, and 3D was absolutely better on the Titan (but the Sony is still very good). (I didn't really like 3D until I viewed it on the Titan.)

Sorry, got to leave for an appt., but you get the idea. PM and we can exchange numbers if you are interested in hearing more.


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post #8 of 26 Unread 02-06-2017, 01:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JlgLaw View Post
You are referencing the "DPI" F82. DPI is Digital Projection, Inc., they do not manufacture the F82, as noted above, that is a "Projection Design" model (maybe a Barco model, but manufactured by PD), not DPI. Jim
Thanks for the clarification. Frankly, I was confused.. I did not realize that DPI is different company from Digital Projection. I thought both were the same and owned now by Barco. Sent you PM.
Thanks
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post #9 of 26 Unread 02-06-2017, 02:19 PM
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Digital Projection is officially Digital Projection International. Then there was Projection Design from Norway, informally known as PD, not DP. In the US it launched the HT brand Avielo (by Projection Design).

To make things even more confusing, both Christie and DPI obtained their Single DMD projectors from PD.

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post #10 of 26 Unread 02-06-2017, 03:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Sorry to bother you guys.. Seeking advice.. link to: DPI Titan 1080p-700

This projector was sold for $3650 on sept 12, 2016. They have three more.

I am a bit confused about all these contrast numbers..
Titan reference has 5000:1, This titan 700 has 2000:1 - considering this contrast number, should I avoid this projector?
The price seems cheap.. for a $60k projector..

Thank you.
PS: Thanks to JLGlaw.. for your phone call.. Truly, I enjoyed the conversation..
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post #11 of 26 Unread 02-06-2017, 06:32 PM
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It would seem they're sacrificing around half the lumens to achieve a higher contrast ratio with the Titan Reference version. More than likely there is a fixed iris in the light path along with one in the "High Contrast" lenses they offer for that model. They may also use some extra coatings on the lens to help aid in higher contrast.
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post #12 of 26 Unread 02-06-2017, 06:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
It would seem they're sacrificing around half the lumens to achieve a higher contrast ratio with the Titan Reference version. More than likely there is a fixed iris in the light path along with one in the "High Contrast" lenses they offer for that model.
Good point.. Iris seems like a logical explanation.
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post #13 of 26 Unread 02-06-2017, 08:36 PM
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It makes sense that they'd do it this way from an economic stand point. Most of the DLP manufacturers will offer a line up of projectors all based on the same light engine with small alterations within that light engine to offer different performance aspects. Things like fixed irises in the light engine, fixed irises in some of the lenses and higher wattage lamps are simple and relatively cheap ways to get more contrast or more lumen output. Even with single chip DLP units they can do simple things like this or even make changes to the color wheel to either emphasize contrast performance or lumen output while still basing their line up of projectors around the same projector. Then they can use the same chassis, video processing and some other things to keep costs down to offer different performance levels across a multitude of projectors.
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post #14 of 26 Unread 02-06-2017, 08:51 PM
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You should check the price of the lamps before you get too excited.
David

DES
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post #15 of 26 Unread 02-07-2017, 12:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
It would seem they're sacrificing around half the lumens to achieve a higher contrast ratio with the Titan Reference version. More than likely there is a fixed iris in the light path along with one in the "High Contrast" lenses they offer for that model. They may also use some extra coatings on the lens to help aid in higher contrast.
That's exactly right. My Titan Refernce 3D had an internal iris that was removable and it had an iris in the "High Contrast" lens. This allows the units to be mixed and matched to achieve more brightness or more contrast. With no internal iris and a "High Brightness" lens that has no internal iris, you basically get double the light and half the contrast.
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post #16 of 26 Unread 02-09-2017, 10:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Shapiro View Post
You should check the price of the lamps before you get too excited.
David
Good point of course.
UHP bulbs are pretty cheap. The lamp housing is around $900 but bare bulb is only $200 - philips.
Xenon lamps are the trouble!

I am still debating.. whether to buy this Titan 700 1080p I assume it is HDCP? The contrast of 2000:1 concerns me - because frankly, I am not sure what that means, in real life. I don't have sufficient familiarity with the various contrast numbers being talked about.. ansi, on/off, sequential etc.. I understand that the Dynamic contrast number is less important, than the preceding? Dynamic contrast for titan 700, I think was rated at 10,000:1 - not sure..

Vs the Barco F82
Dynamic contrast of 15000:1..
What was the original list price of the Titan 700 1080p? I could not find via google.

Thanks everyone, for your comments.
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post #17 of 26 Unread 02-09-2017, 02:42 PM
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Your BenQ probably has only 1000:1 or a bit more on-off contrast, or does it have a functioning dynamic iris?
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post #18 of 26 Unread 02-09-2017, 03:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by donaldk View Post
Your BenQ probably has only 1000:1 or a bit more on-off contrast, or does it have a functioning dynamic iris?
Benq contrast seems better than my Sony Qualia.
Which one would you suggest, between the Barco F82 Vs DPI 700 1080p (I assume its DVI input would be hdcp compliant for 2k?). F82 quotes 15000:1 - assume is Dynamic contrast. DPI 700 is quoted at 2000:1 - which, assume is not dynamic?
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post #19 of 26 Unread 02-09-2017, 05:13 PM
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F82
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post #20 of 26 Unread 02-09-2017, 07:23 PM
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Ceenhad used to be the Euro distributor for DPI, and Now Barco Residential, so he should know.
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post #21 of 26 Unread 02-10-2017, 06:10 AM - Thread Starter
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thank you ceenhad and donaldk! Your comments are very valuable to me. I will go ahead and try to buy the f82.
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post #22 of 26 Unread 02-11-2017, 06:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ceenhad View Post
F82
I made an offer for the barco f82 but was unsuccessful. Is the dpi 700 almost as good or should it be avoided? Is it hdcp compliant for 1080p?
Thank you
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post #23 of 26 Unread Yesterday, 10:27 AM - Thread Starter
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I bought the Wolf DCX-1000i. Waiting for it to arrive.
I thought it would be better than the F82. F82 would have been easier to install/use but a fellow member told me that the F82 might not be the best choice for home theatre. He owns one.

Thank you all, for your helpful comments.
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post #24 of 26 Unread Today, 05:26 AM
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Wow, a $85,000 projector. How much did you end up paying for it, if I may ask?

And how large is your screen that makes you prefer a Wolf Cinema or PD projector over a high end JVC or Sony?
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post #25 of 26 Unread Today, 06:42 AM - Thread Starter
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No problem. Sent you pm
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post #26 of 26 Unread Today, 06:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Btw, my screen is 150"wide Stewart micro perforated 1.3 gaine.
I noticed too much of scaling issues, a little posterization while viewing dish network (95% of my viewing), with some of the under $10,000 4k projectors.
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