New Flagship SONY 4K HDR Direct RGB Laser Projector - Page 9 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #241 of 265 Unread 04-10-2017, 02:46 AM
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The projector is too cheap for me.
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post #242 of 265 Unread 04-10-2017, 05:27 AM
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Originally Posted by SirNathan View Post
The projector is too cheap for me.

It is true that this projector may be a relative bargain. You may not be able to hold your nose in the air in a room of true home theater snobs but this could be a small price to pay if the performance is what is promised.


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post #243 of 265 Unread 04-10-2017, 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post
It is true that this projector may be a relative bargain. You may not be able to hold your nose in the air in a room of true home theater snobs but this could be a small price to pay if the performance is what is promised.


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Hahahaha, fantastic!!!!!
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post #244 of 265 Unread 04-10-2017, 09:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
Someone mentioned in another thread that Sony has developed new 4K SXRD panels for this model. Does anyone have any more information on this? I'm curious to see what new enhancements these panels have and would like to know if the panel driver too has been upgraded. One issue I had with the older panels and panel driver was that there seemed to be sometype of bandwidth or communication issue where bitdepth and chroma subsampling seemed to be lessened and some banding/posterization artifacts occur because of it. I'd be interested to hear if this issue has been corrected on the newer panels.
Subjectively speaking we did not see any posterization/banding with respect to the demo that we were given; and we specifically looked for it. We were shown a variety of content, which was not demonstrated during CinemaCon, before the prototype fully broke, that included footage from the new Spiderman: Homecoming movie, and we did not see any whatsoever. However, to be sure and to provide definitive confirmation we would need to have handson with an actual unit, which we are hoping to do at an early stage, perhaps with respect to the beta prototype whenever that is manufactured (this was the alpha prototype). But early indications are that no, there is no posterization/banding issue.
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post #245 of 265 Unread 04-10-2017, 10:02 AM
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I did not see any posterization either. You can sleep well there. Et Tu Sonneborn?
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post #246 of 265 Unread 04-10-2017, 10:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by SirNathan View Post
The projector is too cheap for me.
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Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post
It is true that this projector may be a relative bargain. You may not be able to hold your nose in the air in a room of true home theater snobs but this could be a small price to pay if the performance is what is promised.


Art
Not sure who is joking or who is being serious here! But even at the pessimistically-probably-higher-than-what-it-will-actually-be price range we are guesstimating this new projector will reside, it will represent excellent value for money, comparatively speaking... It's not going to be the only new fish in the pond by the time it's released, so we think it needs to and will be priced very competitively, which is good news for anyone considering purchasing one of these.
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post #247 of 265 Unread 04-10-2017, 10:29 AM
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I believe you, but my experience is with Cinema DLP which has a higher signal to noise ratio and perfect color,projected on the highest ansi preserving FP screen the mighty TORUS. An Ultimate screen will approximate that effect as well.
Not trying to start into an argument but I'm confused by these comments. Define "higher signal to noise ratio", as I am not sure what you are referring to here. Digital video doesn't really have a SNR, while the content creation may (film grain vs a crystal clear digital capture). Images have dynamic range, which few cinema DLPs do well (exception is probably Dolby here). High ANSI is great for content that has an average picture level near 50%, but it has been shown time and again now that most content rarely exceeds 10% APL, which is why sequential CR's are so popular (see what Dolby did with Dolby Cinema? They didn't improve ANSI to get that kind of dynamic range).

As for perfect color, not sure what that means either. Perfect in that it covers 100% of intended gamut?? Most consumer projectors on the market today can do 100% of BT709, which is all Blu-ray content. For HDR projectors you get varying ranges of gamut coverage for P3's coverage within 2020, but a few can get within about 98-100% (which is better than a lot of mastering monitors used in Hollywood). Chroma resolution isn't an issue with some panels supporting 12 bit resolution, but chroma resolution is low in the content too. So are you talking about something else? DCI projectors used in the home typically gets kudos for their brightness capability and better lenses. This leads to more color luminance, which is why people usually say the color looks "different", but it has nothing to do with accuracy (accuracy is gamut coverage and hitting luminance targets based on your peak white). Our eyes just naturally gravitate to brighter colors, which images with 25+ fL provide.
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post #248 of 265 Unread 04-10-2017, 11:05 AM
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No and for good reason. I hear they're mostly all setup poorly. Though I've heard Peter goes the extra mile to ensure his demos are setup as best as possible. I like to see projectors in my own home/environment so they're all on the same screen under the same conditions. It stops the potential of a variability in issues when I do my evaluation. Each unit has the chance to shine in its best light.
Think of Cedia as like a " speed dating " event, where you go to see which new models you would like to spend more time with, intimately, in the privacy of your home.

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post #249 of 265 Unread 04-10-2017, 12:54 PM
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...I'll be waiting for my RGB royalty checks

(Hey, Art- planning a theater meet anytime this year- never been to yours yet...)
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post #250 of 265 Unread 04-10-2017, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
Subjectively speaking we did not see any posterization/banding with respect to the demo that we were given; and we specifically looked for it. We were shown a variety of content, which was not demonstrated during CinemaCon, before the prototype fully broke, that included footage from the new Spiderman: Homecoming movie, and we did not see any whatsoever. However, to be sure and to provide definitive confirmation we would need to have handson with an actual unit, which we are hoping to do at an early stage, perhaps with respect to the beta prototype whenever that is manufactured (this was the alpha prototype). But early indications are that no, there is no posterization/banding issue.
.
That goes without saying you're fully aware of the issue I'm describing on past .74" SXRD 4K projectors, correct?
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post #251 of 265 Unread 04-10-2017, 02:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
Not trying to start into an argument but I'm confused by these comments. Define "higher signal to noise ratio", as I am not sure what you are referring to here. Digital video doesn't really have a SNR, while the content creation may (film grain vs a crystal clear digital capture). Images have dynamic range, which few cinema DLPs do well (exception is probably Dolby here). High ANSI is great for content that has an average picture level near 50%, but it has been shown time and again now that most content rarely exceeds 10% APL, which is why sequential CR's are so popular (see what Dolby did with Dolby Cinema? They didn't improve ANSI to get that kind of dynamic range).

As for perfect color, not sure what that means either. Perfect in that it covers 100% of intended gamut?? Most consumer projectors on the market today can do 100% of BT709, which is all Blu-ray content. For HDR projectors you get varying ranges of gamut coverage for P3's coverage within 2020, but a few can get within about 98-100% (which is better than a lot of mastering monitors used in Hollywood). Chroma resolution isn't an issue with some panels supporting 12 bit resolution, but chroma resolution is low in the content too. So are you talking about something else? DCI projectors used in the home typically gets kudos for their brightness capability and better lenses. This leads to more color luminance, which is why people usually say the color looks "different", but it has nothing to do with accuracy (accuracy is gamut coverage and hitting luminance targets based on your peak white). Our eyes just naturally gravitate to brighter colors, which images with 25+ fL provide.

Hello Chris! Good to hear from you. I have sensory overload today, but will be happy to articulate under wich conditions, the general rules you point out DO NOT APPLY. Ues 8,000:1 sequential is clearly better than say 7,300:1 but I am not talking about ordinary projectors. But the fact is that research by Alan coupled with the research in optical screens clearly is another situation altogether. Alan and I sometimes fall out like siblings. Happy siblings day Alan. But we always make up. I will postulate the why of my statement adressing all your points. Like Eric said sleep is good.

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post #252 of 265 Unread 04-10-2017, 03:27 PM - Thread Starter
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That goes without saying you're fully aware of the issue I'm describing on past .74" SXRD 4K projectors, correct?
Let's just say we know what you are referring to... And we also asked the question regarding SXRD panel degradation too
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post #253 of 265 Unread 04-10-2017, 05:20 PM
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...I'll be waiting for my RGB royalty checks

(Hey, Art- planning a theater meet anytime this year- never been to yours yet...)

A actually would like to as soon as Mark Seaton completes the remaining Sub upgrade which should be in the next few weeks. I'd like to call it a party
since, although the home theater stuff is great, it's getting people together who are into the same hobby who can appreciate the stuff, the knowledge and zeal for the common interest which is the fun. Since my daughters are grown and live on the west coast, I thought I could ask some of my staff to help out as ushers etc.


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post #254 of 265 Unread 04-10-2017, 10:47 PM
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Let's just say we know what you are referring to... And we also asked the question regarding SXRD panel degradation too
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What was their response?
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post #255 of 265 Unread 04-11-2017, 02:53 AM - Thread Starter
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What was their response?
"That problem is not going to be an issue with this series of projectors".

To which we then asked, is this projector to be an extension of the SRX 500-Series? (See what we did there ) to which the answer was: "No, this is new technology and so will be a brand new range of projectors"

Following which we attempted to obtain the further details regarding specifically how and why they are sure that SXRD panel degradation will not be an issue but understandably Sony are keeping their cards close to their chest what with this being between the alpha and beta prototypes stage of the development process; plus we are guessing that Sony probably don't want to divulge precisely how they have resolved the panel degradation issue, though it is our understanding that protective coatings might perhaps be involved, because the primary patent which currently protects their SXRD technology runs out in 7 years' time, so we figure that Sony will be wanting to keep the details secret such that they retain an advantage when the patent protection ceases.
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post #256 of 265 Unread 04-11-2017, 07:13 AM
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"That problem is not going to be an issue with this series of projectors". [/B]

To which we then asked, is this projector to be an extension of the SRX 500-Series? (See what we did there ) to which the answer was: "No, this is new technology and so will be a brand new range of projectors"

Following which we attempted to obtain the further details regarding specifically how and why they are sure that SXRD panel degradation will not be an issue but understandably Sony are keeping their cards close to their chest what with this being between the alpha and beta prototypes stage of the development process; plus we are guessing that Sony probably don't want to divulge precisely how they have resolved the panel degradation issue, though it is our understanding that protective coatings might perhaps be involved, because the primary patent which currently protects their SXRD technology runs out in 7 years' time, so we figure that Sony will be wanting to keep the details secret such that they retain an advantage when the patent protection ceases.
.
The "protective coatings" were also discussed early in the 5000ES thread as having been applied to the panels in the 5000ES PJ units....Wolfgang, I thought, had heard directly from Sony regarding this......
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post #257 of 265 Unread 04-11-2017, 08:54 AM - Thread Starter
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The "protective coatings" were also discussed early in the 5000ES thread as having been applied to the panels in the 5000ES PJ units....Wolfgang, I thought, had heard directly from Sony regarding this......
Precisely. This is what I was referring to. We think Sony will be applying the same 'protective coatings' as they did with the Sony 5000ES with respect to this new range of projectors, given this is the only way really that Sony could so definitively state that panel degradation will not be an issue. We knew this would come up, in that folks on here would want to know and having experienced the woes of SXRD panel degradation ourselves and with respect to some of our customers we also wanted to know, which is why we asked the question.
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post #258 of 265 Unread 04-11-2017, 09:49 AM
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Good to know! Do we know what size this new 4K SXRD panel is?
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post #260 of 265 Unread 04-12-2017, 07:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
Not trying to start into an argument but I'm confused by these comments. Define "higher signal to noise ratio", as I am not sure what you are referring to here. Digital video doesn't really have a SNR, while the content creation may (film grain vs a crystal clear digital capture). Images have dynamic range, which few cinema DLPs do well (exception is probably Dolby here). High ANSI is great for content that has an average picture level near 50%, but it has been shown time and again now that most content rarely exceeds 10% APL, which is why sequential CR's are so popular (see what Dolby did with Dolby Cinema? They didn't improve ANSI to get that kind of dynamic range).

As for perfect color, not sure what that means either. Perfect in that it covers 100% of intended gamut?? Most consumer projectors on the market today can do 100% of BT709, which is all Blu-ray content. For HDR projectors you get varying ranges of gamut coverage for P3's coverage within 2020, but a few can get within about 98-100% (which is better than a lot of mastering monitors used in Hollywood). Chroma resolution isn't an issue with some panels supporting 12 bit resolution, but chroma resolution is low in the content too. So are you talking about something else? DCI projectors used in the home typically gets kudos for their brightness capability and better lenses. This leads to more color luminance, which is why people usually say the color looks "different", but it has nothing to do with accuracy (accuracy is gamut coverage and hitting luminance targets based on your peak white). Our eyes just naturally gravitate to brighter colors, which images with 25+ fL provide.
Hi Kris I will address this in a couple of posts @ the CINEMACON Thread instead.

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Full Bafflewall view....
Whoa thats huge!

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Whoa thats huge!
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HEHE well played sir.
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Any word on whether Sony will attempt to show this again after the transit damages at CinemaCon?

Also, if a separate consumer HT model were to potentially exist, how long (realistically) would we know before the commercial version is available in late 2018? Or would it more likely come after the commercial version was already on the market for a reasonable period of time?
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It is true that this projector may be a relative bargain. You may not be able to hold your nose in the air in a room of true home theater snobs but this could be a small price to pay if the performance is what is promised.


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Spend the difference on solid gold cables and a cheetah. That will surely save face.
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