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post #121 of 262 Unread 05-19-2017, 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Lasalle View Post
Actually Todd Welti's research tends to support 2 front subs 1/4 in from the side walls:

Investigation 3: Brute Force
Computer Optimization
• Best results found with four subwoofers
• Two subwoofers almost as good, with
better low frequency support
• Symmetrical locations seem best

When I saw him present at CEDIA he indicated that if you use this location and set them off the front wall a few feet it maybe the best location. The LOGE does this because of the 4+ foot cavity behind the screen.
I am more than familiar with his work. I am in Las Vegas this week teaching a THX/HAA acoustics class, and we reference his and Devantier's work quite often. Two subs 1/4 of the room length on the side walls is very effective. By doing so, you eliminate the peaks from both a length and width mode. 4 subs in corners, mid points, or even 1/4 widths is generally more effective at creating a consistent seat to seat frequency response in the lower two octaves. None of those scenarios will give you a smooth or flat frequency response however, and do rely on PEq.

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post #122 of 262 Unread 05-19-2017, 10:01 AM - Thread Starter
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A) In my head 99.99 percent of the atmos setups ive heard in any shows or movie theaters failed to recreate the seminal Gravity premiere.

B) For cedia I attempted to copy the side reinforcement part and where there was a top it works, because i had rear back sides it also worked in defining the 3-4-5- seat 2nd row from back exclusion box that created that magical experience some heard. It also is the second time i heard with the man from uncle what i heard with the houston houston circling my head.

C) DO NOTE I RECREATED A 128 object RMU playback reference experience on a 16 object home MIX. CAN YOU IMAGINE ACCOMPLISHING THAT after 3 years of not been able to in any atmos movie theater?Again no one can dispute what i hear or not, i kill cedia ever single time, this cedia I have been moving speakers on poles since november, and stocked up on an entire DVD=A sacd multichannel collection, and have downloaded every atmos and hdr title (too many ) on kaleidescape and have been sitting here listen for clips where the soundtrack is best.


This was a hunch reinforced with a BIG payout, like Mark so adeptly communicates he enjoys the rewards of those moments like he di at axpona last month. This is exactly the same phenomenon validation on listening test of a hunch with the best possible system on earth..

What was missing at Cedia that Could be improved, The Moab effect, and like overkill is my middle name i decided to limit the range of the 10 tops to just 3 rows and time delay compensate. So I already was going to pack them 10 mofo's on the former daisy cutter target zone, synchronously finding the guidelines before cinemacon offered by the damaske and Wagener effect (pointed as miked in that experiment) a layout that conveniently matched my MOAB ideas of December by identifying these thresholds of better differentiation of speakers packed in such close proximity. Call it whatever you want , as used in that experiments that perfectly suited my gut feeling.

D) I can confirm that with 4 tops the 40 60 tf and tm sound freaking incredible, further confirming I am on the path to ultimate immersion maximum tops separation. That moving goal that makes so many people uncomfortable, the progress of the always moving IMMERSION 2025 ideal. In 2025 I write a book and retires and then scientists can scrutinize how i accomplish.

By chance during the 4 year creation of immersive audio and laser projectors I was the best funded R+D subjectivist immersion designer, by chance, But I have been putting my time and paying my dues, 45 years doing not stereo but quad, then time delay, then surround sound. I have been a quest for maximum immersion sound and HDR looking images ( i did not us an acoustically transparent screen till Helene in 2006 , always torus, solid curved, beiner solid curved and optical not diffusive rear projection as I wanted that HDR Pop). Guess what ? In my mind after developing techniques to create great audio for solid screens for 4 decades, and feeling like the odd man out, I feel vindicated and re-energized.


Sorry that I live and breathe this crap, you are much younger than me, someday you will be huge.

I also have a strong Engineering by osmosis background helping in the family business as a kid doing mega million dollar stainless steel process, packaging, and bottling Industrial installations in Fortune 50 for my Dad and Brother both serious engineers, my great grandfather buddy of FDR another famous engineer. I have been hanging projectors and screen on unistruts for 40 years, and my installations aim for innovation perfection where it counts, not on the marquees, popcorn machine and that quaint nostalgia to times where people did not have the technology we can exploit.

.And I am not en engineer, but bring them. Let the market shake it out. As of now come end of June we have the worlds first Quested Altitude 35 speaker system elevated with a projector better than what shown at cinemacon, in Germany installed in a state of the art way. The image you saw at Cinemacon on the Thor HC will have 500:1 more on off contrast and be approx 12 percent sharper.


It is clearly explained above that I am on to show the world at CEDIA Again, how I think Atmos should be done based on my considered investigations, 24/7.

Perhaps when I was working in Russia or jobs in Istanbul i did not bother ypeople by posting in this forum, but I do not like living worried about Russian Tanks or Isis attacks or Coup d'etats. I invented the high end video business in Miami, inspired by a rich culturo-technological heritage to make it better. Joel and Joe, copied my idea from stereophile 94 with runco and I lost my power there. Now I earned it back the hardest of possible ways. cut me some slack. Jeff will see and hear everything and can look at other options. My concept am not afraid of failure because I really know deep down it is the best approach to me, if the others like great, if not i tried, the answers will reveal themselves during the way...



Jeff does not want to be a guinea pig with me on anything,(but quested was not a bad one Jeff) i know that, wait until he sees and hears what I have in store. I am laser focused in 4 moons of saturn if i get to 6 then i price myself out of the market and disappear there is plenty to go around Adam in the USA . I love you but you know I have one strike and I am out in this forum, so use the how to win friends and influence people approach with me, as CEDIA cost me a nut, and when i got back I had an identity theft saga that I just still recuperated, now I will show AT cedia AND IF IT DOESN'T WORK I'LL DESERVE IT, BUT ....i'm seldom wrong as I live in constant pursuit of the truth ( for our field).

I will try to change my writing style to a more scientific white paper approach just for you in June, since I will be dealing with more manufacturers moving forward. Cheerio.

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post #123 of 262 Unread 05-19-2017, 10:39 AM
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Sorry that IO live and breathe this crap, you are much younger than me, someday you will be huge. For now, you think on the left side of the brain, and I live on the right side, both can do excellent work.

Stop raining on my parade due to semantics.

As far as left brain/right brain, while I was technical director of a 3000 seat concert hall in a previous life, most of my projects were sound and lighting design for ballet, opera, plays, concerts etc. I like to think that with my majors in math and physics, I can balance both comfortably.

Not semantics, just math and physics.

But I will step out of the thread for awhile.

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post #124 of 262 Unread 05-19-2017, 10:46 AM - Thread Starter
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I agree there is some lobe commonality, and you are culturally well rounded person which i genuinely like. Is just quizzing me constantly with technicalities during my Big Game Hunting pre-closing weeks, drives me nuts. One down one to go , and i will be able to relax for a while and polish my technical writing skills.

Glad that was not what you said. Maybe was the Grappa talking.

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post #125 of 262 Unread 05-19-2017, 10:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Don't go yet.

Not so fast please give general position for the 4 sub stacks, since this room is recreated in your lab. Mark work amongst yourselves. Like the coffee lady used to say.

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post #126 of 262 Unread 05-19-2017, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by appelz View Post
I am more than familiar with his work. I am in Las Vegas this week teaching a THX/HAA acoustics class, and we reference his and Devantier's work quite often. Two subs 1/4 of the room length on the side walls is very effective. By doing so, you eliminate the peaks from both a length and width mode. 4 subs in corners, mid points, or even 1/4 widths is generally more effective at creating a consistent seat to seat frequency response in the lower two octaves. None of those scenarios will give you a smooth or flat frequency response however, and do rely on PEq.
In the LOGE the front subs will be stacked 3 high (Seaton 18"), I did add a side seaton sub in each side wall at the room mid point that can be used to smooth the LFE response and/or provide L/R surround bass re-enforcement. I'll let Walter determine the optimal bass management settings.
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post #127 of 262 Unread 05-19-2017, 12:29 PM
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I never said anything of the sort, Peter.

As far as left brain/right brain, while I was technical director of a 3000 seat concert hall in a previous life, most of my projects were sound and lighting design for ballet, opera, plays, concerts etc. I like to think that with my majors in math and physics, I can balance both comfortably.

Not semantics, just math and physics.

But I will step out of the thread for awhile.
Hey, too much grappa for Peter - stick around Adam - I know we all like and appreciate your contributions!!
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post #128 of 262 Unread 05-19-2017, 02:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lasalle View Post
Actually Todd Welti's research tends to support 2 front subs 1/4 in from the side walls:

Investigation 3: Brute Force
Computer Optimization
• Best results found with four subwoofers
• Two subwoofers almost as good, with
better low frequency support
• Symmetrical locations seem best

When I saw him present at CEDIA he indicated that if you use this location and set them off the front wall a few feet it maybe the best location. The LOGE does this because of the 4+ foot cavity behind the screen.
Quote:
Originally Posted by appelz View Post
I am more than familiar with his work. I am in Las Vegas this week teaching a THX/HAA acoustics class, and we reference his and Devantier's work quite often. Two subs 1/4 of the room length on the side walls is very effective. By doing so, you eliminate the peaks from both a length and width mode. 4 subs in corners, mid points, or even 1/4 widths is generally more effective at creating a consistent seat to seat frequency response in the lower two octaves. None of those scenarios will give you a smooth or flat frequency response however, and do rely on PEq.
I think many forget that the now rather old report from Todd Welti was using an original assumption of identical signals going to each speaker. In the many years since they have built upon the understanding of overall room mode interaction gained from this study to refine a more flexible process. I know of more than a few rectangular rooms which followed the prescription in the first few years after the paper and happened to not work out so well with huge cancellations without lots of further adjustment or moving subs. The study was a reaction to the ridiculousness being suggested at the time by the CAT MBX marketing that more subs always equals better, location be damned. This gave Synthesis a studied response to that claim. The significant advancement and more complex understanding is clearly seen in the adjustments and flexibility seen in Harman's latest Sound Field Management solutions.

If I were planning bass for a new room from scratch, I would use a full baffle wall with an approximated grid array of subs on the front wall of the room. Maximum spacing between sources/drivers should be 4.5'-5' (closer is fine) and you can set those sources in from the walls, floor and ceiling by 1/2 that distance to reduce the number needed. Now you have near zero variation in the plane of the screen (width & height at any given depth) through the room below 100-120Hz. Add enough thick absorption at the rear wall along with an array of probably 1/2 that density to manage the length mode and related issues. 2 channels of control and you're done with a known solution and room to experiment with some other creative tricks as well.

Of course Peter is less fond of elegant simplicity, and needs all that wall space for speakers, so we'd probably have to make each one a bandpass leaving only a small sound exit into the front/rear wall in the grid pattern.
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post #129 of 262 Unread 05-19-2017, 03:32 PM
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If I were planning bass for a new room from scratch, I would use a full baffle wall with an approximated grid array of subs on the front wall of the room. Maximum spacing between sources/drivers should be 4.5'-5' (closer is fine) and you can set those sources in from the walls, floor and ceiling by 1/2 that distance to reduce the number needed. Now you have near zero variation in the plane of the screen (width & height at any given depth) through the room below 100-120Hz. Add enough thick absorption at the rear wall along with an array of probably 1/2 that density to manage the length mode and related issues. 2 channels of control and you're done with a known solution and room to experiment with some other creative tricks as well.
Basically a DBA.
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post #130 of 262 Unread 05-19-2017, 03:51 PM
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Subwoofer placement is no magic, at least once you've "seen the matrix" like I have. Once you've run enough boundary element model simulations of new construction home theater spaces the solutions become simple.

So, for me it always starts with the question of how many seats you want consistent bass at, and how many rows are they spread over.

1 seat = minimum one midwall front, one rear. Rear sub integration strategy is generally in phase with no delay.

Multiple seats on one row = in a wide room can just use same solution as above. As room gets narrower and outer seats approach 25/75% of room width you have to go to two front / two rear at 25/75% width or corners in order to get width mode cancellation. Rear sub integration strategy is generally in phase with no delay.

Multiple seats across two rows = same as above. Rear subs can be integrated either in phase with delay or out of phase with delay. In phase with delay gets you additional headroom, but worse row-to-row consistency. Out of phase with delay gets you very similar row-to-row but with reduced headroom.

--

A glossary of sub integration techniques:

1. Welti - all subs in phase, no delay. Only works well if your room is massive and all seats are away of lines drawn through 25/75% of room width and length. As in, never happens in reality.

2. Seaton - yes Mark, I give this one to you, because you deserve your own sub integration strategy - all subs in phase, rears delayed, typically 4-8ms room dependent. Works well but you still end up with pretty significant row-to-row variation.

3. Source / sink - includes all variants SBA (single bass array), DBA (dual bass array), CABS (controlled acoustic bass system - stupid acronym) - rear subs out of phase and delayed. Works very well, but requires very careful setup.

--

In practical experience I've found four subs, 25/75% of width or corners with a Seaton or Source/Sink method works best for multi-row home theaters. With that approach you have width and length mode cancellation. Unfortunately you don't have height mode cancellation, so if the room is low you can still get significant variation across the height dimension. Unless you go to subs in front and rear baffle walls adding height cancellation is not very practical. If your room is a decent height and you have two rows, those are typically only 15-18" apart in the height dimension, which makes the height mode variation not an issue.

--

I once asked Tony Grimani why he didn't use boundary element modeling, and he said something like, just put four subs in the corners, each with DSP adjustments and it all works out. After doing much modeling and building up my experience, I can understand why this is the case. Sub placement is not magic once you "see the matrix".

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post #131 of 262 Unread 05-19-2017, 07:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Cool

Incredible post Nyall, thanks so much. Very highly appreciated, with Adam ( we made peace via text- he thought i was hitting on him ) and Mark I vote for the higher risk reward approach. Awesome.

This is like a 17 by 10 screen yours will be a tad narrower and taller. With 4 way mask you go as big as you can. I can do a scaled one once we know there is no ME running overhead pipes conduit etc...



There is plenty of room around the 3 x z20's, which is the enclosure of the lt-20 but with....



With the more musical AMT of the Z-16 more range appropriate for MICRO PLF. Uwe went to listen to shootout at Quested with lt-10 and these won hands down, he;s got 5 behind the screen. NAIAD's DR. Robert adores them.




The z-20 is probably the best LCR out there at the moment with precise imaging, transparency, scale and PUNCH, I wish Alcons copied their form factor.

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post #132 of 262 Unread 05-19-2017, 08:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Cool

The Wallz' might evolve into narrower column with more drivers, perhaps 2.5 way instead of 3 way for more sensible B-Chain racking requirements.

By being narrower in a proper cinema they take less wall space than the Wall-Z, so shallower speaker diffusion fabric walls envelope profile, which is welcomed. They can be wall mounted on vertical long u brackets for correct aiming to MLP. Or floor mounted.



They also can be repurposed for NON CINEMA CLEDIS Connected Living room apps.


Future B&O functionality in CLEDIS PH Living rooms, copying Uwe's timeless stainless steel speaker stands Idea. Here i was stretching an lt-24 V



But we either need many 5 inch drivers or quite a bit 6.5, the bottom end and dynamic range of the z-16 cannot be traded off. that is the quandary.

Roger is running the numbers, to preserve the spl and bottom of the z-16 based WallZ. Maybe, we don't know yet.

Although I have owned 2.5 way unknowingly before with decent satisfaction i had never heard about the benefits until I asked Andrew about the AMC Prime Dolby made speakers, they pack a wallop.



i hear the woofers used for MF need to be stepped back, as above. Nyal I bet he knows about 2.5 way.




I have not heard Alcons in a cinema, none in the USA. But these AMC Prime Dolby/sls kill meyers, totally, it is the ideal form factor for a 19 channel surround Atmos bed. I am so excited by the potential.

Andrew who went from Atmos Director to Dolby Cinema Director WW, last week, says these sound awesome too.




Im so spoiled by the dynaudio floorstanders I am fully convinced this is the way to go for channel sufficient bed channels.

These however are designed to go way too high on the wall, we need something optimized from ear level to 30 cm above ( 1 foot).


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post #133 of 262 Unread 05-19-2017, 08:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Cool This is the clean fabritrak look, no mismatched panels.

borrowed from Neil Davidson.

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post #134 of 262 Unread 05-20-2017, 06:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Nyal Mellor View Post

1. Welti - all subs in phase, no delay. Only works well if your room is massive and all seats are away of lines drawn through 25/75% of room width and length. As in, never happens in reality.

.
Nice write up. I'm not sure 11,500 cubic feet qualifies as massive, but the LOGE seating is well within the 75/25% (probably closer to 70/30). This was by design to get better sound to a fewer number of seats (average viewing <3). I did hedge my bets with the side subs though. Mark's matrix is not an option from me so this will need to suffice.
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post #135 of 262 Unread 05-20-2017, 07:03 AM
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Loved the interview Peter.

Great stuff here!

I'd like ideas for a clean, modern, progressive look! Something like this but minus the convexity in the panels!!

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Goodbye to a great audio and video genius and writer... JOHN GANNON. I enjoyed your friendship, wit and a nice long run we took around Indianapolis at CEDIA years back... and for buying my Runco 980 Ultra years back... you saved my ass! Rest in peace.
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post #136 of 262 Unread 05-20-2017, 10:59 AM - Thread Starter
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The scaloped walls will add cost and complicate the ac soffit.

not this colors but see how clean i would lite the wall /floor junction with a recessed strip along the sides like the blue pic above.



actually the only Theo theater that I did not find too ornate, is his own.


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Flat Iron Dci cinema by Iossaghinni

Of all the architects ive worked with this guys somehow manages to pull it off, the pinerest is replete with the most tacky things. There used to be a lot more cleaner looking theaters in the late 90's and early 2000, what happened.

No Moon Name yet for the Flatiron building community cinema.

It will end up being even slicker.
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PRETERNATURAL IMMERSOPHILE rAVe Best ATMOS DEMO CEDIA 2016. Most Envied Installation In Europe ( Until July). PREPARING SPECIAL CEDIA EXPO 2017 DEMO WITH ULTIMATE HDR PROJECTION AND HI-POTENCY ATMOS REFRENCE POST-DUB STAGE DCI KIT: IMMERSIONLAND. WHEN THE LIVING ROOM WALL RIVALS YOUR 100 MILLION DOLLAR VIEW... The path to meaningful change is often walked alone.
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post #138 of 262 Unread 05-20-2017, 11:52 AM - Thread Starter
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My Critique of sleek simple and classy elements not brought fully together

Im just thrown stuff to the wall for general ideas. Just the stuff that does not decend to vomitif, simply parking fur further review.


This is not suggesting exact adaptations just highlighting specific elements that may work, a lines concept board of sorts.







Fabritrak with spacers in wood or corian.


just filing.. .. sifting thru crap.


not bad for cbs head










WTF is this a HT sim game? Yup He is using cledis



The headboard of the master bedroom is on the other side of the left surrounds.

I like a lit 16" high recessed wood runner under the fabric walls , long veneered panel but NO MOULDING.

The first picture jeff sent me had that effect.


...






Block the heavens with your hand



Look ma no firberoptics fake stars...







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PRETERNATURAL IMMERSOPHILE rAVe Best ATMOS DEMO CEDIA 2016. Most Envied Installation In Europe ( Until July). PREPARING SPECIAL CEDIA EXPO 2017 DEMO WITH ULTIMATE HDR PROJECTION AND HI-POTENCY ATMOS REFRENCE POST-DUB STAGE DCI KIT: IMMERSIONLAND. WHEN THE LIVING ROOM WALL RIVALS YOUR 100 MILLION DOLLAR VIEW... The path to meaningful change is often walked alone.

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post #139 of 262 Unread 05-20-2017, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Lasalle View Post
Nice write up. I'm not sure 11,500 cubic feet qualifies as massive, but the LOGE seating is well within the 75/25% (probably closer to 70/30). This was by design to get better sound to a fewer number of seats (average viewing <3). I did hedge my bets with the side subs though. Mark's matrix is not an option from me so this will need to suffice.
I think your room has a bunch of glass on one side wall (?) and is obviously not rectangular, so the best placement will likely be slightly asymmetrical. In those kind of rooms Harman's Sound Field Mangement (SFM) algorithm or the similar Multi-Sub Optimizer algorithm (MSO, available freeware), might be your friend. I'd still go for some subs at front and some subs at back of room and also spread them out over the width of the room, just a perfectly symmetrical sub placement strategy isn't likely to be the best.
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overflow pics...

interesting sconces

Fabr5itrak curved



Lots of tasteful sleek elements Not One Cinema found.


Wenge and charcoal


Hey Takers sconces


cove lighting


Michael Bays scalloped walls , worst atmos system in the world. goes around the oval...




The negative might work




assymetric

Wood and fabric not well integrated but lovely wood.




who did that one?






imax



conrnflake

















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PRETERNATURAL IMMERSOPHILE rAVe Best ATMOS DEMO CEDIA 2016. Most Envied Installation In Europe ( Until July). PREPARING SPECIAL CEDIA EXPO 2017 DEMO WITH ULTIMATE HDR PROJECTION AND HI-POTENCY ATMOS REFRENCE POST-DUB STAGE DCI KIT: IMMERSIONLAND. WHEN THE LIVING ROOM WALL RIVALS YOUR 100 MILLION DOLLAR VIEW... The path to meaningful change is often walked alone.

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post #141 of 262 Unread 05-20-2017, 01:31 PM - Thread Starter
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2nd overflow...








Jeff or anyone pick what you like not the whole thing, the cove lighting from here, the steps from here, this but in color cobalt, etc etc.. just give me 5 elements you like.

These are the first 2 pictures you sent, the acoustic speaker fabric concept and the room with the wood and fabritrak with cineak, the other image is coincidentally above I will try sketch some thing with a semi curvaceous wall and ask carlos what is involved.





some more from cineak the one you like and another couple keith yates jobs, the one with the mcLights on the columns from Theo, that one is better than his theater.



[IMG]"https://st.hzcdn.com/simgs/42019aa600f7417e_8-4571/modern-home-theater.jpg'[/IMG]








I dont mind the lights behind fabric like our friend here did in the sultans room in london with the quested






lovely grating bet it sounds great too.






Seems Cineak is in the best looking rooms... They are built like tanks, % years pounding from me, holding up firm as new.
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post #142 of 262 Unread 05-20-2017, 02:36 PM
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Wow! SO many to choose from. You're absolutely on the right track.

I want the speakers hidden like the one below and the two pics below that are in the ball park for what I want to build! Thanks!!





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Goodbye to a great audio and video genius and writer... JOHN GANNON. I enjoyed your friendship, wit and a nice long run we took around Indianapolis at CEDIA years back... and for buying my Runco 980 Ultra years back... you saved my ass! Rest in peace.
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post #143 of 262 Unread 05-21-2017, 06:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyal Mellor View Post
I think your room has a bunch of glass on one side wall (?) and is obviously not rectangular, so the best placement will likely be slightly asymmetrical. In those kind of rooms Harman's Sound Field Mangement (SFM) algorithm or the similar Multi-Sub Optimizer algorithm (MSO, available freeware), might be your friend. .
Actually I've been keeping track on Dirac Unison (one of the reasons for the side subs and 12" drivers on the surrounds and heights), Walter and I have discussed it and he has sent me a couple of updates. Trinnov is also supposed to be working on improved Multi-sub bass management as well, both should be in play by the time the theater is up. The room has 32' of sliding hurricane glass doors in the back corner so more of the lower frequency bass will escape than a normal wall. We are also putting a lot of bass absorption in the back built into the soffits and on the ceiling moving it more toward an amphitheater effect with less of a back wave. I'm not too worried as we have the same glass doors in the family room below with a 5.2 system in it that was tuned in about a day. It will be interesting to see the difference in the preset for "party mode" when the wraparound blackout curtain is drawn back and the doors are slid open to the outside lounge. Thanks for the input.
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post #144 of 262 Unread 05-21-2017, 07:46 AM
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Peter,
Do you feel that the LED (SONY,Samsung) panels are coming along to the point that in say 18 months we shouldn't be considering projection at all ? I feel like in that time I may have one more projector swap but.........


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post #145 of 262 Unread 05-21-2017, 09:34 AM
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Just received a quote from Sony just for fun; 100.00 euros per square meter... Also, the example I received a quote for, a 2.4x1.3m screen made out of 18 units would only resolve 1920x1080; so I guess minimum 4.8m width for 4k at the time being and cost of about 600.000 euros (msrp, I'm sure some discounts will be possible to aquire...). Samsung will for sure be cheaper, that's always their pitch vs Sony, and they might also introduce a consumer version in not too long, but I guess this concept first and foremost will be made out to fit commercial cinemas...

I really cross my fingers that these panels push the projection producers to do some real innovation, it annoys me a little that Christie is not 'sharing' their dual DMD solution for example, but now that large ultimate on/off screens appear in the horizon perhaps they would consider capitalizing on their find / patent? / dolby/dlp-deal? after all??


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I really cross my fingers that these panels push the projection producers to do some real innovation, it annoys me a little that Christie is not 'sharing' their dual DMD solution for example, but now that large ultimate on/off screens appear in the horizon perhaps they would consider capitalizing on their find / patent? / dolby/dlp-deal? after all??


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I'm just wondering if this is the swan song.


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ELARA: Jeff's Next Gen Direct RGB,Ultimate Screen, Altitude 40, Quested Z, Strato PLF

...might very well be, but as I seem to recall, projectors has been a dying breed for some 10 years plus now; hard to kill at least! In Europe and Norway, where sqm costs a lot and is also very limited overall, the AT fabrics does make sense even with modular TVs becoming available as speakers does need a lot of space and as such is a perfect fit inside a baffle wall. For commercial cinemas, however, space is not as limited and speakers can probably be placed in arrays above, for example, and still perform quite well. I do see the huge amount of arguments for these panels as such, but again, for private batcaves, the AT solution just makes so much more sense. Sure, HDR and stuff needs to arrive on projection as well (sooner rather than later), but people always seems to underestimate the importance of convenience... Now, you might say; placing 20 modular panels up instead of a screen and projector is the more convenient solution after all, but in my case at least, having a cinema room that is 4x6m, it would mean compromising both sound quality and overall appearance using a huge TV instead..... Hard to foresee the future, but I really think the only real thing that could actually kill projectors although the AT solution making sense IS actually the panels after all... If panels take over the commercial space, the developments that are now financed based on income in that segment will be reduced and later on probably mean less features also for the projectors of the consumer segment. So; this might be the swan song after all, only thing that would 'save' projection might be a brand new shift in technology such as direct laser scanning finally working (no panel / driver that is...) and as such 'overnight' simply have made even flatpanels a relic of the past... Who knows??! I am obvously, as a projection screen manufacturer hoping for just that miracle.........


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Hi Art, The sky will not fall that bad on projectors, the chisite RGB with the RealD screen in 2d hdr will be darn close to the look of the flagship led's, by next year. Unfortunately the light modulating technology being developed for Barco is 3 years way although I suspect they will start doing demos soon to show there is ultimate hope for the projection market.


That being said, cinemas are going to get overhauled theis year with the 32 foot wide 4k samsung kit bundled with the GDC server so no atmos, no dolby vision pathway. Installed for about 750 a square foot 32 x 18=576 x 750= 432K for a screen 32 x 18 but only dci and hdmi 1.4

The cledis SHOWN AT cINEMACON IS NOT dcinema compliant you have to feed it four dvis, so non starter there, as they produce the first batch, they are expanding capacity that the sony, with a slot for the dolby IMS-3000 would be potentially suitable for 32 channel aes home atmos and home dolby vision. Those are the first units to come semi affordable fort the market. I was told that at that time to expect a 150k price installed.

The problem is the audio that is where the challenge will be for some, for me not, that has been my specialty for 40 years, solid projection , torus, or rear.

Now that my friend got promoted to Head of Dolby Cinema Products aWW I will be pitching market opportunities in all these including dual sequential light engine projection.

My company is focused on taking projection closest to a SONY z9 100" image, i accidentally accomplished that in the Torus Room over the holidays. Optical screens is the only way to deliver HDR that looks Flat panel like.

Then you have the workflow in the studios they would love one master print for Cinema Flat Panel HDR than compresses into a UHD.

If you have 16 by 9 plus 10 inches around you could potentially plan for this. 18-24 months is the window.

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post #149 of 262 Unread 05-21-2017, 11:24 AM - Thread Starter
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In 2 weeks I, John My Engineer, and Brian the world leading masking system expert (of yes he is, it's humbling how good this guy is), we are partnering up and going up to BOULDER to spend 2 days at RealD. I feel bad Jon as I really like the V6 but it does not have the flat firled 2.8 gain needed for specular highlights. We are bringing the screen to market this year. Barco where i have elevated status as I Hooked up Uwe with the THOR HC AMG -Like SUPERKONTRAST model, besides the only time they have Best In show clamouring is when I curate their demos, so they are definitely giving me what I asked this year. Still less than 7,300-1 cr., but we then wait for light modulation and then projection will give CLEDIS a run for the money.
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Totally get it Peter, I guess there will still be room for the V6 for people that place more emphasis on the AT than the gain. It's always give some take some although the fact that RealD seems to have managed to get rid of speckles is certainly impressive. I'm still not a fan of the other issues introduced by optical coatings and positive gains although I'm sure your torus screen will reduce some of these issues. Again; give and take; always, you just have to decide what you're comfortable givin'!!


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