ELARA: Jeff's Next Gen Direct RGB,Ultimate Screen, Altitude 40, Quested Z, Strato PLF - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 312 Old 05-06-2017, 11:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Cool ELARA: Jeff's Next Gen Direct RGB,Ultimate Screen, Altitude 40, Quested Z, Strato PLF

This one will be great. Jeff spent 2 months going through Planetary Moon Names, he really hit it out of the Ballpark the most Elegant futuristic name that escaped my scrutiny during the 30 year history of the Nouvel Space Collection.


He Wrote:


"And the Moon name is...."

"How Elara Got its Name:
Elara is named for one of the lovers of Zeus, the Greek equivalent of the Roman god Jupiter. In Greek mythology, Zeus hid her from his wife, Hera, by placing Elara deep beneath the Earth, where she gave birth to their son, a giant called Tityas.

(Yes, my theater is my my lover hid in my basement - and we will be making a giant down there!!)"


A Wise Choice Monsieur!



This was my first conceptual so its not to scale yet. Shop drawings for construction (with room isolation details) are coming for this Urban Oasis (ready by CEDIA Next Year).
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post #2 of 312 Old 05-06-2017, 11:23 AM - Thread Starter
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We eliminated 4 sets of arms since there is no D-Box

options, options....



Since the MLP is on the front row for maximum envelopment visually and holosonically, yes Damaske And Wagener maximum top resolution method emplyed here as well as NAIAD. That one starts soon too.

Also Uwe just ordered his Thor HC, if Barco agrees to upping the ante on contrast and precision instrumentation facilitated on commissioning I am thinking of elevating Triton from Neptune Moon to Jupiter Moon and rebaptizing it EUROPA.

It is a fitting name to the world's first Altitude 32 installation which will now become the Finest Home Cinema in the Solar System for the near future.

The cinema that may soon become the former TRITON will be featured in Forbes.

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post #3 of 312 Old 05-06-2017, 04:24 PM
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So with one row seating, how many channels can be placed in a home theater room obeying atmos height speaker numbers with altitude? I can't imagine room for 28, let alone 48 in a full altitude implementation
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post #4 of 312 Old 05-06-2017, 04:41 PM
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Originally Posted by mburnstein View Post
So with one row seating, how many channels can be placed in a home theater room obeying atmos height speaker numbers with altitude? I can't imagine room for 28, let alone 48 in a full altitude implementation
Atmos for Home is defined as 24.1.10, so 24 at ear height, 1 LFE channel, and 10 overhead channels. There are reasons to configure for more than 10 speakers overhead in large rooms with multiple rows, but for one row seating, 10 is the magic number.

Front Height L&R
Top Front L&R
Top Middle L&R
Top Rear L&R
Rear Height L&R

Of course, if you want to cover Auro3D, then a Front Height Center and Top come in to play.

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post #5 of 312 Old 05-06-2017, 07:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Cool

Quote:
Originally Posted by appelz View Post
Atmos for Home is defined as 24.1.10, so 24 at ear height, 1 LFE channel, and 10 overhead channels. There are reasons to configure for more than 10 speakers overhead in large rooms with multiple rows, but for one row seating, 10 is the magic number.

Front Height L&R
Top Front L&R
Top Middle L&R
Top Rear L&R
Rear Height L&R

Of course, if you want to cover Auro3D, then a Front Height Center and Top come in to play.
Hi Adam, Thanks for the microperf article.Actually using 3d remap all on modes it sounds great with all three formats using EVERY SPEAKER IN THE ROOM. Like LOGE, NAIAD, HYPERION.
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post #6 of 312 Old 05-06-2017, 07:17 PM
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Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post
Hi Adam, Thanks for the microperf article.Actually using 3d remap all on modes it sounds great with all three formats using EVERY SPEAKER IN THE ROOM. Like LOGE, NAIAD, HYPERION.
I was responding to Mark's question. You finally got an Altitude to play with?!

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post #7 of 312 Old 05-06-2017, 08:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Smile

Quote:
Originally Posted by appelz View Post
I was responding to Mark's question. You finally got an Altitude to play with?!
Nope , at the cost of my full range floorstanders some with esotar the accumulation process is expensive, will actually start with double ganged marantz soon for 11.1.6 (in the silversmiths home knife and forks are made out of wood-cuban saying) But i did hear it with alcons Just for 4 days at CEDIA, Walter and Murat say it is the go to mode in Hyperion. 3d remap all on. Will try it again when i go to germany in July to install the Thor, to supervise the setup i should say. Fighting with Barco next week about higher cr. mods over what we saw at CINEMACON, intervention to my firends and family at Barco next week.LOL.

They are worried about cracking the lens, fraidy cats, what is a lens that cost them 3,000 compared to the Ultimate Visual well being of my best client in Europe? Sorry Murat, we need to ditch the LCOS.LOL!

Have they not heard of liquid cooling? I got inspiration from a brewing coil, probably invented in Germany in the late 18th century.
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post #8 of 312 Old 05-07-2017, 09:15 AM
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Nope , at the cost of my speakers the accumulation process is expensive, will actually start with double ganged marantz soon for 11.1.6 (in the silversmiths home knife and forks are made out of wood-cuban saying) But i did hear it with alcons Just for 4 days at CEDIA, Walter and Murat say it is the go to mode in Hyperion. 3d remap all on. Will try it again when i go to germany in July to install the Thor, to supervise the setup i should say. Fighting with Barco next week about higher cr. mods over what we saw at CINEMACON, intervention to my firends and family at Barco next week.LOL.

They are worried about cracking the lens, fraidy cats, what is a lens that cost them 3,000 compared to the well being of my best client in Europe? Sorry Murat, we need to ditch the LCOS.LOL!

Have they not heard of liquid cooling? I got inspiration from a brewing coil, probably invented in Germany in the late 18th century.
That copper coil is called a immersion wort chiller. I homebrew during the rare times when I am home long enough to tend to a batch. Mostly Belgian styles, or Russian Imperial Stouts.

I've had good and meh results with 3D remapping. Had a couple rooms where side surrounds that were in front of MLP get completely remapped to the rears, which were actually placed just behind the MLP. Awkward room for sure, but remapping was a definite no-go there. And of course, in a properly engineered room, I find the use cases to be very minimal. Nothing to remap...

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post #9 of 312 Old 05-07-2017, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by appelz View Post
There are reasons to configure for more than 10 speakers overhead in large rooms with multiple rows, but for one row seating, 10 is the magic number.
given you have a large room with one row seating? Or how long should a room be to justify 10 overheads?

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post #10 of 312 Old 05-07-2017, 11:23 AM
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given you have a large room with one row seating? Or how long should a room be to justify 10 overheads?
Length of room certainly has an effect, although I would define it by the listening area. Ceiling height would also have an effect on any decision. The question I answered was "how many can there be", not how many should there be!

We should probably define whether we are talking about an Atmos only configuration or a general 3D immersive audio solution for multiple codecs before going further.

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Originally Posted by appelz View Post
Length of room certainly has an effect, although I would define it by the listening area. Ceiling height would also have an effect on any decision. The question I answered was "how many can there be", not how many should there be!

We should probably define whether we are talking about an Atmos only configuration or a general 3D immersive audio solution for multiple codecs before going further.
so the idea of a center front height channel behind the screen to join the existing front and left heights and the same for rear center height to join existing rear height right and left would be useful in an atmos room such as mine ?

mark
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post #12 of 312 Old 05-07-2017, 01:53 PM
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so the idea of a center front height channel behind the screen to join the existing front and left heights and the same for rear center height to join existing rear height right and left would be useful in an atmos room such as mine ?
Neither of those locations are defined for Atmos. Front height center would be used on Auro3D codecs. You could add a center rear, but it would be an ear height speaker, and would only light up on Atmos content using that speaker. DSU would not upmix to it.

In your room, the only really useful speaker position would be Ls1/Rs1. You could do another pair of tops, but that would require moving your existing speakers. Ls1/Rs1 would be more beneficial though.

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Ahh.. Just back from beautiful northern Michigan, refreshed and ready to movie forward! Peter, thanks so much for the audio and lunar guidance! I'm so glad you liked the name... it was quite a bit of work on my end to come up with that name ;-0!!

Elara is going to be something... Very excited to employ a build that promotes sound isolation and the ability to better acoustical work than in my current room.

Yes, we are selling our somewhat rural home on an acre of land on a beautiful lake to downsize and try city living in a smaller home on a much smaller lot (though we do have views of a nearby lake). I have two kids finishing college and only one left at home, so we're downsizing our lives (and our living space). We found plot of land with a small home on it 3 blocks from town, the ideal location after almost 3 years of looking... we'll tear it down and start our new home from scratch.

I'm going to dig a slightly deeper basement to benefit the theater (~11') and expect to have a room of up to 17' wide by up to 30' deep - depending on where I house my equipment..

We expect to tear down the home next month and start construction in July as we are in the design phase now. Likely a completion date of Fall 2018.

We're pretty excited for this new chapter in our lives and am really pumped to improve on my already excellent theater.

With Peter's advice and Quested recommendations and Adam's expert calibration, it's hard to imagine it will sound better.... but I know it most definitely will!!

Very, very excited!!

Goodbye to a great audio and video genius and writer... JOHN GANNON. I enjoyed your friendship, wit and a nice long run we took around Indianapolis at CEDIA years back... and for buying my Runco 980 Ultra years back... you saved my ass! Rest in peace.
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post #14 of 312 Old 05-07-2017, 07:34 PM
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Ahh.. Just back from beautiful northern Michigan, refreshed and ready to movie forward! Peter, thanks so much for the audio and lunar guidance! I'm so glad you liked the name... it was quite a bit of work on my end to come up with that name ;-0!!

Elara is going to be something... Very excited to employ a build that promotes sound isolation and the ability to better acoustical work than in my current room.

Yes, we are selling our somewhat rural home on an acre of land on a beautiful lake to downsize and try city living in a smaller home on a much smaller lot (though we do have views of a nearby lake). I have two kids finishing college and only one left at home, so we're downsizing our lives (and our living space). We found plot of land with a small home on it 3 blocks from town, the ideal location after almost 3 years of looking... we'll tear it down and start our new home from scratch.

I'm going to dig a slightly deeper basement to benefit the theater (~11') and expect to have a room of up to 17' wide by up to 30' deep - depending on where I house my equipment..

We expect to tear down the home next month and start construction in July as we are in the design phase now. Likely a completion date of Fall 2018.

We're pretty excited for this new chapter in our lives and am really pumped to improve on my already excellent theater.

With Peter's advice and Quested recommendations and Adam's expert calibration, it's hard to imagine it will sound better.... but I know it most definitely will!!

Very, very excited!!

Looking forwards to seeing this come to pass ! Best of luck my friend.


Art

...
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post #15 of 312 Old 05-07-2017, 07:42 PM
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Originally Posted by appelz View Post

Of course, if you want to cover Auro3D, then a Front Height Center and Top come in to play.
A big Auro room may need the Front Height Center, but it's probably unnecessary for most home theaters.

As to the Top, the Voice of God channel is actually more effective when spread out across multiple speakers rather than using a single Mono VOG. I would just map the VOG channel to the 6 Atmos ceiling speakers.
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A big Auro room may need the Front Height Center, but it's probably unnecessary for most home theaters.

As to the Top, the Voice of God channel is actually more effective when spread out across multiple speakers rather than using a single Mono VOG. I would just map the VOG channel to the 6 Atmos ceiling speakers.
Auro3D defines 13.1 channels. Why would you ignore a channel if you have the ability to use it? I get that there isn't a ton of 13.1 content, but if someone is going to mix content to that defined speaker channel, I will implement it when able to.

If you map all of the other Atmos ceiling speakers to the Top (VoG), then you lose the ability for Auro to playback the other 4 height channels. Auro3D is designed for three layers, and mapping all of the height channels into one channel crushes that, and eliminates 4 discrete channels. Now, with 6 ceiling speakers, I very often will map the Top Middle L&R to be the Auro3D Top channel, so they can phantom to the center for the MLP.

EDIT: Reread this post in the early light of day, and I may have misinterpreted. If you were talking about a 10 channel overhead system with front heights and rear heights, then your idea has some merit. Not sure I would map ALL 6 of the tops though. On past Altitude32 systems, I would map the front heights and top fronts together, top middles as Top, and top rears and rear heights together. Like everything, that all depends on seating positions relative to speaker positions.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by appelz View Post
Length of room certainly has an effect, although I would define it by the listening area. Ceiling height would also have an effect on any decision. The question I answered was "how many can there be", not how many should there be!

We should probably define whether we are talking about an Atmos only configuration or a general 3D immersive audio solution for multiple codecs before going further.
You said:
Quote:
but for one row seating, 10 is the magic number
I understand this as should. So that's the reason i asked. I will soon have a 21ft (7m) x 12ft (4m) x 8,7ft (2,65m) room available with most probably 2x 3-seaters and plan to go 9.1.6. (only talking Atmos, Auro3d is dead for me). 10 overheads seem to be overkill.

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Originally Posted by appelz View Post
Auro3D defines 13.1 channels. Why would you ignore a channel if you have the ability to use it? I get that there isn't a ton of 13.1 content, but if someone is going to mix content to that defined speaker channel, I will implement it when able to.
Your position is defensible, but virtually all Auro-3D music is recorded and mixed in 9.1, and the theatrical mixes are 11.1 (albeit using the front center height). But I know there are even some commercial cinemas that are missing that channel. In a perfect world, sure, include it, but if there are budget or other constraints, that is the one channel that I think is not super-critical to a good Auro-3D system.

Quote:
EDIT: Reread this post in the early light of day, and I may have misinterpreted. If you were talking about a 10 channel overhead system with front heights and rear heights, then your idea has some merit. Not sure I would map ALL 6 of the tops though. On past Altitude32 systems, I would map the front heights and top fronts together, top middles as Top, and top rears and rear heights together. Like everything, that all depends on seating positions relative to speaker positions.
When I suggested using multiple ceiling speakers as the VOG, I was presuming that you do have surround heights (not just Front Height and Rear Height, but true Surround Heights) in the proper locations.

One of the stranger compromises I keep seeing recommended is foregoing Surround Height for some kind of hybrid system - to a large degree the whole original insight that led to the development of Auro-3D is the value of having a height layer, just as you say - a height layer for the whole system, not just height on the front and back walls.

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post #19 of 312 Old 05-08-2017, 08:26 AM
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You said:

I understand this as should. So that's the reason i asked. I will soon have a 21ft (7m) x 12ft (4m) x 8,7ft (2,65m) room available with most probably 2x 3-seaters and plan to go 9.1.6. (only talking Atmos, Auro3d is dead for me). 10 overheads seem to be overkill.
Nah, when I said Magic Number, I only meant that 10 was how many Atmos for Home defined, not necessarily what was required. I would consider that to be a question of both the size of the room and how large the seating area is. Between 6 and 8 speakers would be appropriate for your room.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by dschulz View Post
Your position is defensible, but virtually all Auro-3D music is recorded and mixed in 9.1, and the theatrical mixes are 11.1 (albeit using the front center height). But I know there are even some commercial cinemas that are missing that channel. In a perfect world, sure, include it, but if there are budget or other constraints, that is the one channel that I think is not super-critical to a good Auro-3D system.
I can agree, yup. Just remember, this particular section of AVS is not about budget, and never constraint!


When I suggested using multiple ceiling speakers as the VOG, I was presuming that you do have surround heights (not just Front Height and Height Height, but true Surround Heights) in the proper locations.

Quote:
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One of the stranger compromises I keep seeing recommended is foregoing Surround Height for some kind of hybrid system - to a large degree the whole original insight that led to the development of Auro-3D is the value of having a height layer, just as you say - a height layer for the whole system, not just height on the front and back walls.
Can you explain what you are seeing? Might should create a new thread, instead of hijacking this one even further...

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post #21 of 312 Old 05-08-2017, 08:34 AM
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Nah, when I said Magic Number, I only meant that 10 was how many Atmos for Home defined, not necessarily what was required. I would consider that to be a question of both the size of the room and how large the seating area is. Between 6 and 8 speakers would be appropriate for your room.
Ok thanks!

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Originally Posted by appelz View Post
I've had good and meh results with 3D remapping. Had a couple rooms where side surrounds that were in front of MLP get completely remapped to the rears, which were actually placed just behind the MLP. Awkward room for sure, but remapping was a definite no-go there. And of course, in a properly engineered room, I find the use cases to be very minimal. Nothing to remap...

Let's carry the conversation over at the Naiad thread after i post my last minute ponderings for that system. With your input I do want to start categorizing types of channel sufficient TRINNOV systems, what you consider correct engineering vs, Original /new Atmos Home, . what my moving IM 2025 goal, vs. What changes Arnaud through walter, they spent 2 hours on a thorough analysis of how to make Brad's LOGE conform nearly ideal to the Latest format agnostic model. When discussing these models i suggest we use the Latest Nomenclature per arnaud to have some consistency in the discussion. NO FOCAL POINTS, Listeners Exclusion Box, Cross firing, Recommended 30 cm/1 foot side heights to prevent Head Occlusion while not confusing the image of the sides with tops.etc etc. I have to check my notes.


Later
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post #23 of 312 Old 05-08-2017, 08:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by dschulz View Post
virtually all Auro-3D music is recorded and mixed in 9.1, and the theatrical mixes are 11.1 (albeit using the front center height). But I know there are even some commercial cinemas that are missing that channel. In a perfect world, sure, include it, but if there are budget or other constraints, that is the one channel that I think is not super-critical to a good Auro-3D system.
Hello DS, Recently Walter had been discussing with Arnaud this same subject, they agreed as far that I was relayed, and this could apply to dtsx as well for all i know that that speaker should no be avoided, it created a tops panning imaging inconsistency with the all on format agonostic rd remap, so for peoplethat depend on that feature to perform ideally in their system , the center height front appears now indispensible for it to work at all. I will check for the pans when i visit Triton in July.

It is a possible icing on the top addition to perfect the allready 3d remap excellence in Hyperion.
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post #24 of 312 Old 05-08-2017, 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by appelz View Post
That copper coil is called a immersion wort chiller. I homebrew during the rare times when I am home long enough to tend to a batch. Mostly Belgian styles, or Russian Imperial Stouts.
Mmmm... beer.

Quote:
I've had good and meh results with 3D remapping. Had a couple rooms where side surrounds that were in front of MLP get completely remapped to the rears, which were actually placed just behind the MLP. Awkward room for sure, but remapping was a definite no-go there. And of course, in a properly engineered room, I find the use cases to be very minimal. Nothing to remap...
In the few systems I've had time to experiment with, so long as speaker locations were correctly identified and not skewed by reflections, the results have been rather promising, but occasionally I've seen some weird use of channels, or more oddly, exclusion of channels. I found this differed between formats and with or without upmixer used. I was expecting to see all channels in the horizontal plane utilized with remapping, but if you look at the output meters, it appears 2-4 channels wouldn't see any use when remapping was engaged for different formats. I need to look into this more to better understand what optimal setup is to insure the speaker locations installed are taken advantage of.

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post #25 of 312 Old 05-08-2017, 10:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi Mark, THEN lOGE SHOULD BE A VERY INTERESTING ROOM TO DISSECT AS ARNAUD AND WALTER SPENT 2 HOURS CHANGING THE LAYOUT. Loge relies on 3D remap at all times.
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post #26 of 312 Old 05-08-2017, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by appelz View Post
Nah, when I said Magic Number, I only meant that 10 was how many Atmos for Home defined, not necessarily what was required. I would consider that to be a question of both the size of the room and how large the seating area is. Between 6 and 8 speakers would be appropriate for your room.
Adam,
My room is similar, but slightly wider (20' x 15' x 8'10"). I could see the value of doing 8 height speakers with FH, TF, TM and either top rear or rear heights, considering where a 45 degree angle will land with us at about 13 ft from the front and my 36" seated height of listeners. But anything other than Ls1/Rs1 at maybe 85 degrees strikes me as of marginal value, with wides at 55-60 degrees and side surrounds at 105-110. I have your single row of three seats, with all floor speakers being towers easily capable of -3db reach to 60 if not 40 Hz. I'd love to have L/R screens conceptually, but with three matching floorstanders up front, that seems a bit ridiculous in this room. Unless it's not...I do have 3 channels to burn if I do 11.4.6 or 9.4.8 .

Audio Gear: Trinnov Altitude 32 (24 channel), NAD M27 amps (3)
Video: JVC RS600, Seymour 100" UF Screen, Lumagen Radiance Pro 4444 (coming soon)
Misc.: Oppo 103, Oppo 203 UHD player, JRiver
Speakers: PSB Imagine T3 LCR, Imagine T Wides and Side Surround 1, T2 Side Surrounds, Imagine XB rears, PSB CS1000 ceilings (6), HSU ULS-15 Mk 2 subs (4) - 11.4.6

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post #27 of 312 Old 05-08-2017, 04:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post
Adam,
My room is similar, but slightly wider (20' x 15' x 8'10"). I could see the value of doing 8 height speakers with FH, TF, TM and either top rear or rear heights, considering where a 45 degree angle will land with us at about 13 ft from the front and my 36" seated height of listeners. But anything other than Ls1/Rs1 at maybe 85 degrees strikes me as of marginal value, with wides at 55-60 degrees and side surrounds at 105-110. I have your single row of three sides, with all floor speakers being towers easily capable of -3db reach to 60 if not 40 Hz. I'd love to have L/R screens conceptually, but with three marching floorstanders up front, that seems a bit ridiculous in this room. Unless it's not...I do have 3 channels to burn if I do 11.4.6 or 9.4.8 .
There will be a document from Trinnov available soon that makes recommendations on speaker counts, as well as positioning. How many screen channels, side channels, overhead channels, why and when, and much of it based on room size, size of listening area, viewing angle, ceiling height. My recent thoughts are based on work in my Lab, as well as that forthcoming paper, so I wanted to make sure I am giving proper credit to Arnaud Laborie!

I wouldn't suggest adding screen channels yet. If you think about angles of your speakers in the room, with 5 screen channels and front widths, you would be pretty narrow up front compared to to the sides and rear. I also think Peter is spot on when he talks about making sure the ceiling speakers are supported by surrounds. So if you have TF, TM and TR, you should have 3 pair of side surrounds complimenting them. L/Rs1, L/Rs, and L/Rs2. (Can you do subscripts on these forums?? [sub]TEXT[/sub] doesn't seem to work)

Btw, run your subs as a single LFE output into a good DSP, and you'd then have 6 extra channels to burn! 15.1.8 sounds pretty good to me.

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post #28 of 312 Old 05-10-2017, 04:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by appelz View Post
That copper coil is called a immersion wort chiller.
We can keep the IMMERSION part of the name, it would prevent the tight lens iris heat from cracking glass under long viewing conditions, seems to me it would benefit minimise thermal induced lens distortion too..

The turning on and off of the cooling would be crucial, it would poll a temperature reading on sensor just before the lens once the projector has been on for say 30-5 minutes, then it would come off the same time the lasers were cut, to avoid condensation Via Crestron.



Here are the Barco normal and HC lens irises, this is what we are requesting. Under Movie theater operation conditions the heat could crack the lens. But the moons use the projector 10% of the time a cinema does so....MTBF are stretched.



Necessity is the mother of invention, this is new to RGB laser, lens cooling. It would be the first time done, has been submitted for approval.
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RLBURNSIDE and Reddig like this.

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post #29 of 312 Old 05-12-2017, 02:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Cool Architectural Floorplan is IN!

awesome... I will start laying out in photoshop while we await for the elevation.

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post #30 of 312 Old 05-12-2017, 03:42 PM
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First glance, I have a few suggestions. If possible, move the theater entry door to where the projection room is. The entry door is right at the first reflection point for the front row, which I understand is the primary seating area. Tougher to get the right types of room treatments on a door. Also, if you moved the door to the back of the theater, then you could have a communicating door, which would improve the room isolation significantly. Essentially 3 doors in that area then. Enclose the projection room with an additional door, a door into the theater, and a door into the rest of the house. That would also free up space for front widths, which would be where the door is now.

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