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post #61 of 98 Old 08-16-2017, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Holy Grail View Post
You are right, 86 dB is a severe limitation... Sensitivity (lack thereof) could be the reason to make it disappear from my shortlist.
You might want to check out Jamesloudspeaker if you've not already done that. They have some flat in and on-wall designs with more power.

A good idea and understanding lies at the basis of every successful project.
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post #62 of 98 Old 08-16-2017, 02:24 PM
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Thanks John, looks like a long but fascinating read;-) I'll read it through next weekend.

How is Dr Toole doing? Thought he retired 8 years ago?
Dr. Toole is doing great, actually. I think you would term him "semi-retired." He just wrapped up a lot of work with Dr. Olive and Kevin Voecks on creating new target curves for processors like the JBL SDP75, a Harman optimized version of the Trinnov Altitude16 (we used one at our shootout).

There is a LOT of real science discussion in the thread - I think you will find it fascinating. Much about correlating speaker measurements with subjective speaker performance, discussion about the desirability (or not) of hitting reference levels, etc. Toole has been commenting all along, sharing what the hard research shows.

You can also find a lot of his recent comments in the JBL Synthesis / Revel thread in the Speakers Forum as well, much along the same lines. Lots of mythbusting (I love it!).
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post #63 of 98 Old 08-16-2017, 03:19 PM
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Yes, but with a sensitivity of only 86 dB it is doubtful if it can handle the 300W you need to reach reference level (105 dB) at 2 meters distance.
Do you mean that the Gem2 will be required to handle 300W continuous, 600W peak or?

How did you arrive at the 300W value?

Will the Gem2 be excursion or power dissipation limited?
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post #64 of 98 Old 08-16-2017, 11:32 PM
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Do you mean that the Gem2 will be required to handle 300W continuous, 600W peak or? How did you arrive at the 300W value?
Doubling the distance requires adding 6 dB, and every 3 dB increase requires doubling the power. So to get from 86 dB at 1 m (1 W) to 105 dB continuous at 2 meter you need (19+6)/3= a little over 8 of those doublings. This gets you to about 300 W. The 3 dB head room on top of that may be covered by boundary gain as this is a wall-mounted speaker. So 150 W continuous and 300 W peak should do it.

This calculator can be helpful: http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html

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Will the Gem2 be excursion or power dissipation limited?
I don't know, but what surprised me was not being able to find any specification on the power handling of this speaker.

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post #65 of 98 Old 08-17-2017, 02:47 AM
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Hey in condominiums nothing wrong with playing atmos in light compression mode, with the esotar dynaudio it actually helps to homogenize the immersive field, so interesting future research what creates the most homogeneous bubble effect.
Are you going 'soft' Peter?

I am all in for finding ways to try and optimize the immersive bubble, but preferably not at the expense of feeling the pounding in my chest with sound bursts in the 50-80 Hz region, like the machine gun shots in the opening scene of Unbroken (which BTW is also a good example of having plenty of sub 80 Hz info in the surrounds...).
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post #66 of 98 Old 08-17-2017, 07:44 AM
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You might want to check out Jamesloudspeaker if you've not already done that. They have some flat in and on-wall designs with more power.
The James CEDIA demo in Denver 2014 is still my favorite demo of the last three CEDIAs. Thanks for the suggestion, I was not aware of their in-wall and on-wall offerings.
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post #67 of 98 Old 08-17-2017, 08:46 AM
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Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post
You might want to check out Jamesloudspeaker if you've not already done that. They have some flat in and on-wall designs with more power.
A bit of history on James Loudspeakers, from the very early days of AVS Forum:

QUESTIONS TO JAMES LOUDSPEAKERS: BYE BYE $$$ TWEAKS - ENTER JAMES LOUDSPEAKERS!!!

James Loudspeakers took the above 2000 review and submitted it to potential dealers across the U.S., and James Loudspeakers if I recall correctly quickly obtained 80 U.S. dealers!!!@@@

You mean you don't remember me? Back 1999 - 2003, I started and moderated the AVS Tweaks forum and also the AVS Special Guests forum.

My home theater at:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1158431
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post #68 of 98 Old 08-17-2017, 08:58 AM
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Thanks for your information. I checked the LSR708i, but it's way too deep to fit in my acoustic transparent walls. I have room for a 16 cm deep speaker, but the JBL measures 29 cm (11.5"). However, the new Synthesis LCR3 and 4 will fit in my walls;-)
We just did a most excellent install with the SCL3s in Black Forest, CO. Amazing how close they got to my M2 / 708i / S2S-EX / C763L reference system. The SCLs, in my view, have an even greater sense of spaciousness than the M2s.

Don't forget, the SCL2 is coming soon:

http://www.jblsynthesis.com/productd...esis-scl2.html

I believe these will list out at $8K each, but will not have any problem hitting the SPLs you want (and in a 6" deep wall space).

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post #69 of 98 Old 08-17-2017, 09:27 AM
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So the passive, devoid of any compression driver Revels beryllium domed tweeter floorstander columns won by a factor over the M2 4 to 1.
First off, thanks for your comments about transparency. We did this test double blind, with the speakers hidden from view and the volume levels precisely matched, and then shared the results. Until any two (or three or four) speakers are compared in this manner, I think it's kind of meaningless to claim superiority of one over the other. All variables need to be accounted for and - if possible - eliminated from the comparison. In our case we eliminated sight bias, brand bias, design bias, placement advantage (both speakers were shuffled into identical positions), and volume advantage.

We also published the full Spinorama measurements of the speakers, as provided by Harman (and cross-checked against the independent results on Soundstage.com). One of the things discussed heavily in the thread is the correlation between meaningful measurements and listener preference. By reading the Spinorama measurements, it can now be predicted with 86% accuracy which speaker will win the double blind listening tests. So again, in the interests of full transparency, we posted the Spinorama measurements of both speakers as well.

However, I do want to set the record straight on the test results. The Salon2 did not "win by a factor of 4 to 1." In fact, it was a close thing. The Salon2 had a total average score of 8.4, the JBL M2 7.18 (on a scale from 1 to 10). For those that expressed a preference without a number score, it broke down as follows:

TOTAL CHECKS FOR THE M2: 35
TOTAL CHECKS FOR THE SALON2: 44

So, it's more like a 56% for the Salon2 vs. 44% for the M2 when it came to straight "pick your preference" rankings, and about a 1.2 point difference in overall scores.

Results start here in the thread:

Speaker Shootout - two of the most accurate and well reviewed speakers ever made

RE: the scale from 1 to 10. One of the things that was clear from the test is that recording quality is a large variable. Many people felt that they were also giving a rating to the quality of the recording, as some tracks sounded worse than others. As Dr. Toole said, as speakers get more and more neutral, you are hearing more and more of the recording and less and less of the speaker
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post #70 of 98 Old 08-17-2017, 09:38 AM
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Yep, I later saw the tally, i just looked at a series of tallies that looked like 80 20, apologies. It's very interesting, there is some coincidental correlation to my preference for floorstander columns.
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post #71 of 98 Old 08-17-2017, 12:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Why over analyse this, I have the best alt-32 quested showroom in Europe by Koblenz commissioned by Curt
Which Quested speakers were used in that system, Peter?

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I can see by your selection of current speakers that you admire perfection in design, this is your chance to experience the whole enchilada. You are invited.
Thanks!

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And rather than making recommendations specific to you I might as well help save the world from the ant colony mentality. The Ant Colony is the best generally accepted practices in the greatest country in the world, the first connection with Film came form Lyon to NY thanks to the Lumiere brothers which opened Bijous that later boomed into the creation of the american film industry, which had to move to Hollywood to expands, great scientific work, the horn speakers etc etc, but it relies no adherence to rules and what I consider archaic non psychoacoustical and psychovisual engaging enough.

But Home Theater had another smaller parallel American semination via Havana, somehow I come from that stew. Cuban exiles embracing Capitalistic Entrepreneurship are called Worms by the Castro brothers.

So I will create a Selfish Bastard Worm school of immersion design and that way I do not have to repeat myself over and over, i can refer new people to the selfish worm manifesto I do this for the enthusiasts that have the inquisitiveness to question the rules and research all viable options.
What about writing a white paper ('The Immersive Worm') describing your immersion design approach?
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post #72 of 98 Old 08-17-2017, 12:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Dr. Toole is doing great, actually. I think you would term him "semi-retired." He just wrapped up a lot of work with Dr. Olive and Kevin Voecks on creating new target curves for processors like the JBL SDP75, a Harman optimized version of the Trinnov Altitude16 (we used one at our shootout)..
Are those target curves related to specific speakers?

About the test: why did you chose the M2 (in stead of, let's say, the Everest or the K2)?
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post #73 of 98 Old 08-17-2017, 12:42 PM - Thread Starter
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I am all in for finding ways to try and optimize the immersive bubble, but preferably not at the expense of feeling the pounding in my chest with sound bursts in the 50-80 Hz region.
Agreed!
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post #74 of 98 Old 08-17-2017, 12:44 PM - Thread Starter
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A bit of history on James Loudspeakers, from the very early days of AVS Forum:

QUESTIONS TO JAMES LOUDSPEAKERS: BYE BYE $$$ TWEAKS - ENTER JAMES LOUDSPEAKERS!!!

James Loudspeakers took the above 2000 review and submitted it to potential dealers across the U.S., and James Loudspeakers if I recall correctly quickly obtained 80 U.S. dealers!!!@@@
Hi Steve,

Okay, but are they on par with the brands that are on my little list? (JBL M2, Alcons, Wisdom, ...)
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post #75 of 98 Old 08-17-2017, 01:09 PM
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Are those target curves related to specific speakers?

About the test: why did you chose the M2 (in stead of, let's say, the Everest or the K2)?
This is somewhat controversial, as there are those who worship the Everest and K2. However, the M2 measures better, and is rapidly becoming the speaker of choice for critical mastering applications. Frank Fillipetti, Kenny Mixx, Joseph Magee, and Bruce Botnick all mix on M2s, and DeLuxe Toronto just outfitted all the main theaters in their new mix facility with M2 monitors. PostWorks in NYC just put LSR708is (the small sibling of the M2s) in all their Atmos mix suites, where Baz Luhrman does his mixes. You may already know this, but 90% of Blu-ray mixes have their final mastering QC work done on a JBL Synthesis system. The M2 / 7 series speakers were purpose built with immersive audio applications and extreme accuracy as their design goal - a major part of which was designed to solve "Audio Circle of Confusion" issues, where different studios mix on different speakers with varying levels of accuracy. That's why the M2 is called a Master Reference Monitor - just check out the measurements:



I don't know of any other speaker on the planet that measures as well. The Revel Salon2 is close, which is why we shot them out

Quick primer on how to read the above:

Here is a primer on how to read Spinoramas:

On-axis Response - This represents the direct sound heard by a single listener sitting on the design axis of the loudspeaker. A flat frequency response is an absolute requirement for all electronic devices. Therefore, it is not surprising that loudspeakers with a flat on-axis frequency response have a higher probability of being preferred in double-blind listening tests.

Listening Window - The well-designed loudspeaker should deliver good sound to a group of listeners -- not just the person sitting on-axis. The listening window is the average frequency response measured for listeners sitting on and slightly off the reference axis of the loudspeaker. Loudspeakers that receive high sound quality ratings in double-blind listening tests tend to have listening windows with a flat frequency response.

First, or Early Reflections -- Most of the sound we hear is reflected in rooms. The second loudest sound (after the direct sound) is the first reflected sound produced from the loudspeaker. Therefore, it is paramount that the sounds radiated by the loudspeaker in the off-axis directions generate early reflections that sound good. The shape of this curve should not differ greatly from the on-axis response curve.

Sound Power Response -This is a measure of the total sound radiated by the loudspeaker without regard to the direction in which it is radiated. The shape should be smooth and slightly downward tilting.

Sound Power and First Reflection Directivity Indices - These directivity indices tell us how the directivity of the loudspeaker changes as a function of frequency. At low frequencies most loudspeakers radiate sound omni-directionally (DI = 0 dB), where wavelengths are long. In forward-firing, 2-way and 3-way loudspeakers, as wavelengths get shorter, frequencies get higher, and more of the sound is radiated towards the front. The goal is to have this trend develop smoothly and gradually.
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post #76 of 98 Old 08-17-2017, 01:11 PM
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This chart from Dr. Olive's CEDIA presentation kind of sums up the thinking at Harman:

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post #77 of 98 Old 08-17-2017, 02:47 PM
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This chart from Dr. Olive's CEDIA presentation kind of sums up the thinking at Harman:

And Here is my chart albeit more abstract ambitious and encompassing.



I was Dr. Floyd Toole's second GUINEA PIG in the SYNTHESIS Deployment System Phoebe, the first 9'crt home projection system, the first JBL synthesis system that was stripped of the first generation 15 pound tin can amps and replaced by Mcintosh amps, the first Torus screen in a Home. I am grateful for many things to Dr. Toole a great pillar of our community but at the time, and kevin Voecks gave an intro on the first gen revel, I already had a beef with his work at THX Snell speakers, but I always ask myself what would jesus do although now semi atheist and like to give people (ideas/concepts) second chances the revel back in 1994 were too metallic not silky, the mcintosh solution held me over thru the meridians (great sounding system until I blew 13 teeters playing Heat in Mix mode in their self contained ecosystem!!!) and then the fateful chance last minute encounter during a sprint during the last 12 minutes of Chicago ces 1996. DYNAUDIO a surround sound musicians closest revelation of reality for the first time in my career. I have this system here and is silky. Am i intrigued about the Revels, yes I am, but the Compression Drivers 's ENOUGH IS ENOUGH! Listen to your own customers, and Keith Yates seemed highly offended with the elephant in the room fact waterfall plots are indicators of the fatigue endemic to CD's , those speakers that he applied to the semi nearfield atmos tops, suffer from TERRIBLE SOUND SMEARING (im intimately familiar they are in every dog track in sound florida!!!-NOBLESSE OBLIGE TO KEITH-bREAK FREE FROM THE WEST COAST HORN INBREEDING THAT IS KEEPING AMERCAN AUDIO behind!!!!! , SAMSUNG DEAR want to make AMERICA AUDIO great AGAIN, spend some coin continuing to elevate help break the confusion circle (credit floyd FOR TERM) that the american audio industry is in desperate need to break free from.

To quote a not so illustrious client General Augusto Pinochet ( i never met just his party animal son Alejandro): The Only good communist is a non-existent one. Replace Pinochet with the word immersion worm, replace the word communist with the world compression driver speaker.

Sure the m2 sound ok, but why TRY MILK AN OLD COW THAT IS DISEASED? Enough of this absurdity. I will give a listen again, and if it is good I'll say so but the Gauntlet is clear JBL, wisdom which by the way is the system that was ripped off in Koblenz to be replaced by the quested 32 channel, and I vote for Alcons and I will address THXMANS bigger is not always better comment which is semi partially correct in the context of last cedia, the CRMS is the speaker for lcr, llccrcr and widths and 130 degree surround in the ultimate system but i'm cutting to the chase. The problem with the alcons presentation is that is being put together by individuals insufficiently informed about what the very most immersive atmos clips are. So I'm bringing my thumbdrive and the worm will continue pursuing truth and perfection while trying to lower the entry level cost to humanity. Why LIGHT compression may apply to dome speakers, Because you want a IMPERMEABLE bubble and not a sea urchin!!

I'll respond to some of the questions and suggestions in the next post. So John I am sorry if i cut floyd, kevin and company, but living the life in the bubble time is a concern, to do right one needs to have continuous motion like a SHARK, This spiel that saying that the everest speaker legacy is evident in the little 2x 3' woofer and several metal dome tweeters that made the aerial battle in the atmos demo 2 years ago sound like a cox 1/32 scale gasoline mini engine ww2 reenactment

I'm sorry if my words sound harsh, specially to Art who I am sure has the very best NEURAL-X M2 installation because Mark knows something that not even the factory of the top surround processor knows, HOW TO MAKE NEURAL X sound truly spectacular, when the top european minds failed. Thanks Mark for making american home theater great again.aM COUNTING ON YOU SAVING MY DEAR NEURY PRESENTATION AT LOGE.

NOTE: NOTICE HOW I HAVE REMOVED MY "SIGNATURE" 3D GLASSES.
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post #78 of 98 Old 08-17-2017, 03:23 PM
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Please don't hold back, tell us how you really feel.

I did not come into this thread to stir up any kind of hornet's nest. Really. All I can say at this point is that what I am hearing are simply bold assertions, without any kind of evidence to back them up. At least when it comes to Harman / Toole / Olive / Voecks, I can point to many many scientifically controlled tests published in peer reviewed scientific journals. And of course the massive numbers of industry awards Toole and Co. have received from the entire industry, many of them competitors.

Now, of course it is possible for all your assertions to be correct, but - for me - I'd like evidence along the lines of the measurements I posted above.

Sorry to bring this thread down, everyone.
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Now, of course it is possible for all your assertions to be correct, but - for me - I'd like evidence along the lines of the measurements I posted above.

Sorry to bring this thread down, everyone.
First I am sure that the Revels are super silky at this point in time, I totally empathise and take 100 at his word with the guy that has 6 salon 2's, they should be triple blind tested with the contour 60 esotar dynaudio with weaponised woofers (my next experiment) and the Zylon Ns-5000's, maybe the new magico look like contenders as well. As great as these b-chain systems are we deserve the freedom to choose our amps if passive high spl low fatigue full range speakers can be built, and who better for you to work with with Kevin, who just by what the guy from the 6 revel salon 2's has effectively conveyed to me at least, kevin has vindicated his earlier peccadilloes I am sure, believe me I have a share of mine, which gets back to THXMAN's bigger is not betterthe faulty deduction that Murats phenomenal sounding cr3 mains sounded so bad at cedia when not held down by metal and concrete vibrating out of control on air filled cardboard boxes. But in Murats take a look...


A complete success, MEA CULPA did not translate to the cedia show floor because we were missing the tonnage to anchor the speakers that appear to want to take off like an atlas rocket. And it was my decision based on the success at Hyperion where they work awesome.


And it opened a can of high spl worms, because my goal was just to be past the ref plus 6 that was the limit at cedia 2015, but there are some serious HIGH SPL fiends in this forum who exploited the opportunity to scare off many clients because they wanted to hear ref plus 11, that mark seaton made sing gloriously, but these 4 high spl low fatigue superfreaks aided and abetted me to play the extreme cedia record shattering levels that we did, and the consensus was not to repeat at future show, but the way i arranged the crms in the surround positions coupling with a small 3 seater zone yielded the holly grail of immersive audio in Man From Ungle. with a full 59 objects less than at hand during the gravity premiere, and now the daily stable at the holiday inn express.that is how we snatched the cedia atmos gold out of a perilous high risk abventure.

John Floyd uses the word folklore, it is not folklore if it is first hand attested by the straightest shooter you will ever meet in this field..


Don't bring anything down, no offense, ill let my opinion sit there and delete in a few days simply because i need samsung LED' WALLS and i want to be on their good side, in fact they'l thank me one day.. I think what you are doing is highly honorable, my beef is not with the M2, but with the long in the tooth 97 year old tech.

I am absolutely correct, being my own worst critic, I can show anyone, come to system LOGE when it first fires up that is not my design but the client so one stepped removed from the worm, for the original poster there is immersion heaven in koblenz and istanbul unlike nowhere else in the world. Turkey seems safer now than spain. so as i said , it's there.

I was unaware of the holiday inn expresses breakthroughs until taker and the 6 client project manager pointed out to me how remarkable it was.

For anyone doing a condo come to the holiday inn express, using a paltry marantz 8802. Look I am not interested in mining the forum, you are doing great, my focus is retaking Miami from were i was expulsed by imitators i'n combination with my first Art in video that Joell Silver, Joe Kane and Sam Runco took from under me at Stereophile 94. Alas there was no internet then... so.

I had a unique reference experience in immersion at the gravity premiere, and worked very hard, sometime eating arby's because of financial sacrifices, this is not about me is about the enthusiast which i view as an extension of myself, and I am a selfish bastard , been listening to a minimum 4 speakers since 1974 and never stooped to 2 channels. I am not for everyone, just a few passionate perfectionist immersion bubble-philes with a truly musical ear.

I interact with andrew poulain and continue to challenge dolby for the things they do that leave a gap in my bubble. He is coming to listen to the holiday inn express at Showeast. I have many testimonials from him that are for clients only. I question everything, sorry. Don't take it as criticism because i highly appreciate what you. Believe that my heart is in the right place when i come across with tough love.


I said I was sorry i cut off harman not to look back in 1995, that is before they were in the car audio business, they have done some great work since, still I know which speakers in the alcons line are truly cohesive and those that are not. I can only convince trough demonstrations, english is my second language (which greatly contributes to me coming across as Donald Trump), and I am engineer only through 4 generation osmosis. But have you seen my work? I have savoured the failures as much as the pinch me moments. I am at this 40 years, the first five of the last seven proportionately better funded in the R&D immersive arts than the top three electronics manufacturers combined, proportionately i clarified. What the hell do people have to lose to listening to an intelligent counterproposal to what the Ant Hill is busily crunching over and over.

If It sounds I am unfair , you should see things from this side of the glass. Chill i'll delete the post by next monday (BUT NOT MY EXHIBIT)out of respect to the fine folks at H and Sammie a new good friend. I also challenge a belgian to drop the centuries old justifiable intercountry distrustful animosity to a Dutch product, i hear you bruxxels bolt everything down when dealing with them, but the fact is that they have the solution because america has fallen asleep at the wheel.
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Originally Posted by Unherdable View Post
The James CEDIA demo in Denver 2014 is still my favorite demo of the last three CEDIAs. Thanks for the suggestion, I was not aware of their in-wall and on-wall offerings.
Me too, that and the Harman that had about 45 more objects in the room by being cp-850 with cinema content.However the system started losing tweeters about 5 in total on day 2. Again no foul in light compression atmos when using domes to have a hermetically sealed bubble instead of a Sea Urchin full of gaps.
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Hi Maaikel,

I've been thinking about the pivoting/aimable tweeter approach, but that would severely limit my speaker choices, I'm afraid. Building a column is the easiest solution, but that ruins my concept of flat, straight walls with no visible speakers or acoustic materials (everything will be hidden behind acoustic transparant cloth).

Good point about the surrounds and the exit door effect. I consider moving the surrounds from 90° to 100°. It feels a little odd to move them forward (like 80°).

Interesting input about the sense of directionality. I also read about Peter's multi bass experience with Gravity. However, how much content is mixed like that?
In the hypothetical case one in a similar position would let me help them, id give a fellow immersophile the strato library remote demo system access where directional bass is fait accompli in 1 out of 3 titles. 18 tera and going to 40 fast. The supreme source component that makes the audio and hdr video quality consistency and robustness of the oppo 203 become the thing that you scrape off the bottom of your shoes that stinks badly, because there is one Holy Grail of Source components, deliberately withheld by the anglos from the EC. Select annelids (worm) ambassadors overseas may have special dispensation to indult in. In fact the system is enjoyed in many non great-antilles-annelids-immerso-ambassador-enthusiasts in European countries through vpn.

Now about those beautiful flat fabric walls, are we fancy whimsical decorators or hardcore form follows function immmersophiles with an impeccable eye for design? More in the new thread but look at hyperion proscenium, projection border shadow box cum width channel angle and 40 degree tops integrated bulkhead stands.


the proscenium has many form follows function elements to it's design. Had Murat gone for the dark colored walnut, and had he used fabric track seamless paneling with multiple GEOMETRY's STADIUM shaped (like tylenol capsule in 2d 20-25 cm long) against a dark charcoal in shades of lighter charcoal, the beige color of the chairs the and the brown color of the conceived walnut, sorry but the room would have looked like one million bucks on top of the million it now looks, but one can only lead the client to the well.






I speak from the heart from expensive lessons and past mistakes.
these speakers need to be aimed and full frequency for better room sresponse, envelopment, dirtectional bass.

lcr widths and 130 degree side surrounds if arriyed with 90 degree the 90 degree can be small just the 130 degree is responsible for the most satisfying directional bass.
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Agreed!
Well , respectfully there is something better than the 50 year old pounding on the chest from earthquake sensurround and star wars 77 yore. Yes its kind of sporty but Its completely boring and disruptive to digestion, if you already trapped in a not full range in key positions situation,try to add individual timbre matched subs 35-78 for the widths, and 130 degree surrounds (that is given fact it is needed) but also if your tops had a 12 incher instead of an 8, and don't worry at the speaker level coherency Damaske And Wagener proves that is more important to have the 12 incher, or maybe 10 at the 40 60 90 -45 positions, if you did this you would be randomly whacked purple by any one of every three titles in the kaleidescape library, and the thing is because you watch the scenes rather than stupidly sitting trough a whole movie, your random whackage pounding per hour from every angle factor and not the so much the predictably boring and undigestively helpful ANT HILL PANACEA CHEST POUND is through the freaking roof, formula one like. Are we men or mice?


I have asked Mark Burnstein to commission from mark seaton a bespoke bass directionalisation program that only uses the very large woofers below 35, and puts everything else to 78 in the lcr, widths, 130 surrounds and tops. What a better guy to do? In the meantime i am sure the guy with the 6 salons 2 is not merely satisfied with chest pounding, but enjoying the far more epicurean pleasures of a whackjob from every random angle, the forehead the neck, the rib cage sides and the derriere.
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Hey in condominiums nothing wrong with playing atmos in light compression mode, with the esotar dynaudio it actually helps to homogenize the immersive field, so interesting future research what creates the most homogeneous bubble effect. Mix mode or Lightly compressed. I will investigate in LOGE and report.
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i am all in for finding ways to try and optimize the immersive bubble, but preferably not at the expense of feeling the pounding in my chest with sound bursts in the 50-80 hz region, like the machine gun shots in the opening scene of unbroken (which btw is also a good example of having plenty of sub 80 hz info in the surrounds...).
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agreed!
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well , respectfully there is something better than the 50 year old pounding on the chest from earthquake sensurround and star wars 77 yore. Yes its kind of sporty but its completely boring and disruptive to digestion, if you already trapped in a not full range in key positions situation,try to add individual timbre matched subs 35-78 for the widths, and 130 degree surrounds (that is given fact it is needed) but also if your tops had a 12 incher instead of an 8, and don't worry at the speaker level coherency damaske and wagener proves that is more important to have the 12 incher, or maybe 10 at the 40 60 90 -45 positions, if you did this you would be randomly whacked purple by any one of every three titles in the kaleidescape library, and the thing is because you watch the scenes rather than stupidly sitting trough a whole movie, your random whackage pounding per hour from every angle factor and not the so much the predictably boring and undigestively helpful ant hill panacea chest pound is through the freaking roof, formula one like. Are we men or mice?

I have asked mark burnstein to commission from mark seaton a bespoke bass directionalisation program that only uses the very large woofers below 35, and puts everything else to 78 in the lcr, widths, 130 surrounds and tops. What a better guy to do? In the meantime i am sure the guy with the 6 salons 2 is not merely satisfied with chest pounding, but enjoying the far more epicurean pleasures of a whackjob from every random angle, the forehead the neck, the rib cage sides and the derriere.
OK, let me put it another way, because there is much more than explosions that benefit from strong low frequency reproduction:

A string bass can bring subtle vibrations to your chest that literally can move your soul to tears, like it happened to me during a performance of Bach's Matheus Passion in our local concert hall. If such an event is properly recorded, that experience is what I want to be able to reproduce. The question is what effect applying (slight) dynamic compression to homogenize the immersive bubble will have on these strong bass cues.

This picture give a nice overview of where the body gets moved, whether its by brusque pounding or by more subtle vibrations and waves, that BTW may (not sure about this) also contribute to a better sense of low frequency directionality.

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... believe me I have a share of mine, which gets back to THXMAN's bigger is not betterthe faulty deduction that Murats phenomenal sounding cr3 mains sounded so bad at cedia when not held down by metal and concrete vibrating out of control on air filled cardboard boxes.
I probably should have been more specific when I made that comment.
  • The main focus of it was for the use of surround and ceiling speakers.
  • The next reason was the size of Holy Grail's room. It is already smaller than mine and when adding bigger speakers, you run out of room fast.
  • In the end, there are different speakers for different applications and it is good there are options. I just though what I had would be a great fit for this HT as well.
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I have asked Mark Burnstein to commission from mark seaton a bespoke bass directionalisation program that only uses the very large woofers below 35, and puts everything else to 78 in the lcr, widths, 130 surrounds and tops. What a better guy to do? In the meantime i am sure the guy with the 6 salons 2 is not merely satisfied with chest pounding, but enjoying the far more epicurean pleasures of a whackjob from every random angle, the forehead the neck, the rib cage sides and the derriere.
An alternate approach to consider would be subdividing the subwoofer range to have groupings of woofers at say 4-8 directions around you. Keep everything sealed to make the blending of units seamless and size to a minimum. We know we don't have as precise directional perception as frequency lowers, so why limit yourself to the size woofers in each speaker when you can share the load and get better response at the listening position. If you had space and money to burn, set up a true 2 way subwoofer channel with one group handling above ~35Hz, and some behemoths in the right spots handling below that range. Of course what I think would be a more interesting use of resources is to route the digital outputs of the Trinnov or DataSat to an external DSP with open, drag-n-drop architecture. A simple mixer with multiple inputs from different channels would allow you to route energy below 25-45Hz (your choice based on room acoustics) to all subwoofers for maximum performance and lowest VLF distortion, while separating out the range above that chosen frequency to the directional group you prefer. This could be a to the entire front wall, to one side, or even across a corner, depending on the channels available.

The primary hurdle is attacking the room acoustics, subwoofer placement, and listener location to allow such groupings to still deliver desirable response to more than a few seats in 1 row. Once you accomplish that, then you have to evaluate if there is audible benefit and actual directional sensations. In my experience, the room acoustics and how the location of the bass source interacts with the acoustics can have as much or more effect on any subjective, directional perceptions at low frequencies than where the source actually is vs. the listener. Reducing strong modal interactions resulting in big peaks and nulls through the room greatly reduce the bizarre effects sometimes heard during a low frequency sine-sweep where the apparent source can appear to be swimming or rolling back and forth in the room.

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Great Mark, So I trust you to make the decisions at Mark to try translate at the PLF ROOM one of his immersive triplex complex what i am enjoying here sans the lower octave. Basically i want you, cause the threshold of bass directionality appears to be a personal thing, in my case from being in the womb enjoying the double strike hammer action mechanisms unique to the pleyel, in works from Debussy, De Falla Fires Dance (my fav as a toddler), the polonaise, my mother was a virtuoso, and if i did a womb regression i am sure i could identify an extensive playlist in my subconscious, trivia some of my favorite classical pieces that she oft played are from the same backers to the pleyel firm, debussy, chopin, De Falla. The pleyel pianos used Cuban Mahogany Extensively, and contributed during the firms booming years pre 1928 depression to the partial deforestation of that species, now extinct.

I also was taught Music appreciation at the jesuit high school by the second or third cello to Pablo Casals, Adolfo Ornopossov, so i know about highly emotional cello resonances on a small space. But you know me on to the next thing, atmos music is what I am after, and also please please please let's not understate the wonderful experience that a multidirectional atmos explosion can bring.

On yesterdays atmos release of alien covenant where the shuttle explodes when the $____ hits the fan i counted no less than 7 directional explosions many channel specific but several others created in the phantom positions, specifically the last one right behind me particular strong phantom lf element.

So i would like to focus the experiment by anchoring on the 5 plus wides position, and we need to do something to balance the lower half which is mostly channel based and the ceiling above, more chutzpah please. And you will say room acoustics one o one says you can't distinguish base over head in a small room. Baloney, i did enjoy it during a brief 5 minute period on my brand new dynaudio x-18 middle tops. After i took the lower three eq slider for that channel and i slid them up to the top, like the throttle on the emergency assent scene in airforce one. There it was tops properly scaled, a balance between the top half of the room and the bottom half, no more of this glorified 7.1 wishy washy atmos around the room. Wonderfull ultimate immersion for 5 minutes, then it did not even pop, just went right into static. What are the top three atmos top busters scene that you should blow your speakers trying to find the correct bandwidth and extension width.

Here they are: (hey generally crappy movies but a treasure trove in atmos when mined parsed and listed in a mind expanding Atmos playlist, the feature of the Strato HDR player that takes crappy movie bits and scraps of movies and choreographs them into the new highest possible art form known to man, certainly the most addictive thing in the universe, hdr/atmos favorite scene scripts tour de forces, it don't come better than that.

Tarzan before they jump off the cliff on their way to catch train.
goosebumps after driving away from gnomes and briefly visiting town, attack of the invisible boy segued into awesome giant mantis chase.
Smurfs one- fourth act. fireworks and multichannel tenor smurf chorale in .4 not .2 like sony previously practiced, they have gone now to .4 mixing and the fireworks in .4 along with the above 2 will show you just how much more you need improve or spec to correctly enjoy ATMOS in a way far better than a movie theater with a dozen times LESS objects you still can achieve. That is what Andrew Poulain is so interested at how with such few objects can such a veridic rendering of the rmu mix, can be had. Yes it can.

And that gents is one of the reasons I may be coming across as having just discovered penicillin, cause I have.

So mark you have the tops busters trilogy, and the covenant shuttle directional multi explosion choreography, please use those along with the desired 5+width.4 35-80 presentation, i enjoy here at the holiday inn express , midfield and semi away from the walls and transalate into marks big room and then sub 35 I am in your hands.

This directional bass is exciting stuff, so the torso is a directionally sensitive resonance box as well as through the eyes, lets exploit this to the lowest tactile threshold identifiable, low pass and then let mark do his thing on evening room response. But the days of theaters with more seats than 4 per row are numbered, let's keep it bastardly selfish directional sub at the hot seat first and foremost, organic lf down to dc if you want, dont worry too much about sfu and the other $#itty seats, those seats don't deserve to exist in the first place. That spaced if available should better be left unencumbered for the bed to angularly blossom.

Also Kraftwerk atmos 9.1.4 mix is da reference for music playback in the new world of atmos multi object multi channel music.Chapter 15-17 OMG!
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An alternate approach to consider would be subdividing the subwoofer range to have groupings of woofers at say 4-8 directions around you. Keep everything sealed to make the blending of units seamless and size to a minimum. We know we don't have as precise directional perception as frequency lowers, so why limit yourself to the size woofers in each speaker when you can share the load and get better response at the listening position. If you had space and money to burn, set up a true 2 way subwoofer channel with one group handling above ~35Hz, and some behemoths in the right spots handling below that range. Of course what I think would be a more interesting use of resources is to route the digital outputs of the Trinnov or DataSat to an external DSP with open, drag-n-drop architecture. A simple mixer with multiple inputs from different channels would allow you to route energy below 25-45Hz (your choice based on room acoustics) to all subwoofers for maximum performance and lowest VLF distortion, while separating out the range above that chosen frequency to the directional group you prefer. This could be a to the entire front wall, to one side, or even across a corner, depending on the channels available.

The primary hurdle is attacking the room acoustics, subwoofer placement, and listener location to allow such groupings to still deliver desirable response to more than a few seats in 1 row. Once you accomplish that, then you have to evaluate if there is audible benefit and actual directional sensations. In my experience, the room acoustics and how the location of the bass source interacts with the acoustics can have as much or more effect on any subjective, directional perceptions at low frequencies than where the source actually is vs. the listener. Reducing strong modal interactions resulting in big peaks and nulls through the room greatly reduce the bizarre effects sometimes heard during a low frequency sine-sweep where the apparent source can appear to be swimming or rolling back and forth in the room.
I believe with some creativity the Altitude can all by itself handle multiple subs divided into multiple groups of bass managed speakers cq bass ranges. For this space he could maybe try something like this?:

Redirecting bass from all channels incl. LFE to two 15"-16" floor standing subs handling around 35 Hz and lower, combined with 4 wall mounted flat 10"-12" subs handling the remaining up to 100/120 Hz range. Experiment with either combining or dividing those 4 smaller subs over front right, front left, surrounds right, surrounds left. This may also allow using smaller speakers for LCR as the 40-80 Hz range is covered by the smaller subs in the front.

Edit: Added two (pink) wall subs near wides position (to please Peter )

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No siree you cant leave the widths hanging dry, please add.

On achieving more of an impermeable seal with domes that tend to start breaking up at reference. A good justification for a quested alcons performance spec, in theory cd's too, but lets leave fatigue out of the experience.

The speakers when driven hard start to suffer from cone breakup, This comes across as distortion and increased directionalisation, the indirect energy of the room is not linearly flat any longer which starts to put ugly sounding reflected sound into the room creating multiple sea urchin gaps on the envelope, couple with the sometimes excessively aggressively high dynamics mixes that are coming through on some of the recordings and it is a recipe for reduced verisimilitude and homogeneity. Also shoot for rt values in the 400 and not the overwhelmingly commonly inherited <200, that will reduce dampening of the speakers energy helping the reflected sound be less stressed.

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Which Quested speakers were used in that system, Peter?



Thanks!



What about writing a white paper ('The Immersive Worm') describing your immersion design approach?
I just wrote a white paper for led walls and sound system solutions in high reverberation overlook penthouse living rooms and micro spare bedroom dolby cinema's certainly there is a lot of stuff there i guess i could recycle, but i am a bit pressed for time cause right after cedia i start my Miami Penthouse Market Overtake Invasion that has taken me 25 years to find out a fresh angle of attack to crack that nut, consider it done though, i'm so excited.

A very intriguing thing that will raise eyebrows on the anthill, are you sure that in a Microcinema, knowing what the next generation of oled screen and led walls will bring to the table, are you absolutely shure that projection is your very best choice, certainly blu laser means nothing but this. Where the ant hill is ending with blu laser.

There certainly are two viable true hdr options for projection, and it so happens thatr the only projector tech authorised to touch Spielberg;s personal dci porjectors, he moved from Chicago to London so very doable.

But those willing to try a different approach i discuss in my pseudo white paper such alternatives for Dolby Micro Cinemas, I have what i consider a higher performance specification solution in mind using tricks of the trade developed here.

The quested system best in world and also wisdom audio family room system.


Please take a look at the moive and design sketches, this was a wisdom 75 7.1 room with big wisdom ported subs, and German Speakers Parts express (something like that but these guys are sick speaker builders they cloned a meridian 800 with fibrecrete and a ribbon) so there are 2 dual kevlar 18 in the back of the room). The room was done in 2 parts, he ordered 5 z-16 llccrcr behind the 6 meter screen and three height channel z-8. The l75 were repurposed to the family room, then he added 22 lt-24's every 12 degrees or so and curt bass managed sub 80, id like to fix some of those to become directional widths and surround. Curt had the rear left sub rotated shooting against the back left corner i think. The projector is the Mighty Thor superkontrast which i was involved in the design development loop.

And those choosing speaker companies by their websites, they are mining the studio market at the moment that does not mean that they cannot put our a reference channel sufficient system, the beauty of quested is a smarter all digital aes solution that use d-class for the bass drivers but dsp's out auxiliary channels in analog for the mid drivers and amt. Certainly the most flexible solution, also if you insist in keeping the clean wall look they make bespoke angled solutions.

The Triton project will help you gauge the very best in projection, and a channel sufficient all quested system that the owner said sounded just like the alcons at last cedia but with a much better front stage. And you have your wisdom and a guy that feels that quested totally kills it.

Let me know, 3.5 hours drive from Benelux.

Selfish bastard worm thread started but more as a stream of consciousness pov story. for now.

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I believe with some creativity the Altitude can all by itself handle multiple subs divided into multiple groups of bass managed speakers cq bass ranges. For this space he could maybe try something like this?:

Redirecting bass from all channels incl. LFE to two 15"-16" floor standing subs handling around 35 Hz and lower, combined with 4 wall mounted flat 10"-12" subs handling the remaining up to 100/120 Hz range. Experiment with either combining or dividing those 4 smaller subs over front right, front left, surrounds right, surrounds left. This may also allow using smaller speakers for LCR as the 40-80 Hz range is covered by the smaller subs in the front.
I do believe what you describe could be made to work, albeit a little trickier to insure the blend and balance of the VLF sub vs the zoned arrays. You would have to assign a high pass to all of the zoned subs at say 40Hz, and then low pass the VLF subs at 40Hz. You would then want to route the bass of each speaker to both the selected zones and the VLF subs to cover the full bass range. You would then ideally also want to feed the .1 LFE channel to all of the zoned subs along with the VLF subs. I believe this is possible, but I haven't tried the exact config. Of course you will quickly use up channels with a minimum of 4 required to experiment with it, where you might want as many as 10 outputs to play with.

Again, it comes back to a question of what would be subjectively beneficial vs just intellectually interesting. Again, you would want a room with some very significant acoustic control to the space before attempting such a thing.

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