Shortlist High End Speaker System for new HT - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 32Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 98 Old 08-13-2017, 05:56 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Holy Grail's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 74
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 51 Post(s)
Liked: 6
Shortlist High End Speaker System for new HT

Gents,

I am looking for a great performing high-end speaker system for my new HT. I was thinking of the following candidates:

1-JBL (based on M2)
2-Alcons Audio (based on CRMS MkII)
3-Wisdom Audio (based on Sage L150i or Cinema Line 3)
4-Procella (based on P815 or P860)
5-Pro Audio Technology
6-Quested

Any thoughts?
Holy Grail is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 98 Old 08-13-2017, 06:11 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
humbland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,615
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 443 Post(s)
Liked: 93
I've been down the HT speaker rabbit hole for 30 years. Tried out a lot of gear.
My "final solution" was having Jim Salk custom build a ribbon based tweeter MTM design for the Right/Middle/Left.
Salk Sounds. A bit pricey, but INMO worth it. We went with a piano black finish, but some of his other options are to drool for.
humbland is online now  
post #3 of 98 Old 08-13-2017, 06:34 AM
Senior Member
 
Lygren's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 219
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 140 Post(s)
Liked: 196
Procella, albeit an OK system, is not even close to touching the Alcons due most importantly to Alcons' pro ribbon tech. I've had both systems over a long period of time @ our showroom; the Alcons is just such a stellar system (we use the CRMS compacts now though, CRMS before that, both are great!)!!

As you are probably aware, CRMS mkII will be on display at Cedia this year; hearing is believing!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
CINERAMAX and Lasalle like this.

Proudly Representing DreamScreen.no // ScreenAcoustics.com // AT screens & more!
Founder AVforum.no // Norway´s leading AV community since 2002
Lygren is online now  
 
post #4 of 98 Old 08-13-2017, 06:37 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
thebland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Detroit, Michigan USA
Posts: 25,749
Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1666 Post(s)
Liked: 1005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Holy Grail View Post
Gents,

I am looking for a great performing high-end speaker system for my new HT. I was thinking of the following candidates:

1-JBL (based on M2)
2-Alcons Audio (based on CRMS MkII)
3-Wisdom Audio (based on Sage L150i or Cinema Line 3)
4-Procella (based on P815 or P860)
5-Pro Audio Technology
6-Quested

Any thoughts?
I've heard them all.... All good.

Art graciously invited a few of us over for a demo of his new JBL M2 / Synthesis / Trinnov set up (and mega 16' screen) and I have to tell you, the audio was outstanding! I really liked those speakers... not 'horn' like in terms of harshness, etc. Really clean! And Mark Seaton's bass - wow!!~

Goodbye to a great audio and video genius and writer... JOHN GANNON. I enjoyed your friendship, wit and a nice long run we took around Indianapolis at CEDIA years back... and for buying my Runco 980 Ultra years back... you saved my ass! Rest in peace.
thebland is online now  
post #5 of 98 Old 08-13-2017, 07:49 AM
AVS Forum Club Gold
 
Mr. Integration's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Coral Springs Florida
Posts: 676
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 266 Post(s)
Liked: 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by Holy Grail View Post
Gents,

I am looking for a great performing high-end speaker system for my new HT. I was thinking of the following candidates:

1-JBL (based on M2)
2-Alcons Audio (based on CRMS MkII)
3-Wisdom Audio (based on Sage L150i or Cinema Line 3)
4-Procella (based on P815 or P860)
5-Pro Audio Technology
6-Quested

Any thoughts?
Wait until Cedia there is "New Old" player that would likely make your short list. I have heard it and it is clearly better than at least 4 of your 6.

I know it sounds great and looks great.....but can we communicate with it? If not it is useless:)
Mr. Integration is offline  
post #6 of 98 Old 08-13-2017, 12:36 PM
LICENSED TO THRILL
 
CINERAMAX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: PAN-ATLANTIC
Posts: 17,660
Mentioned: 48 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2232 Post(s)
Liked: 1281
Send a message via Skype™ to CINERAMAX
if you got to cedia ask for the not featured ATMOS tops-buster demo at alcons. Enough of this ATMOS that sounds like glorified 7.1, its time to put cojones ioverhead, it works great, do not settle for half the soundfield.

The way humans react to speaker demos unfairly give the jbl an advantage over say alcons. Why? Of course the problem with people actually liking horns at a good audition, is the fact that the time smear evident in the mlssa waterfall plots is not something that is clearly evident at first, for example i loved the Pro Audio Technology setup at SKOLL for weeks but i was never listening for an extended 2 week session.and every a list celebrity was raving about it, it wasn't until one period of 2 weeks where we were doing mods on the projector and servicing the media server where it suddenly hits you that that something in the information is lacking clarity. Furthermore this short transient response of ribbons with such controlled directivity is what creates the untouchable phantom images that the alcons portrays. The systems directivity spews less garbage on to the walls making the system very easy to treat the room for. More diffusion less absorption.

I recently had a chance to see the full exploitation of the phantoms with the crms system playing a 64 object aural spatial demo and tit was an epiphany, walter is making for me a special clilip demo that is the definitive object extravagant atmos demo. Anyone interested in hearing the alcons with this loop pm me.

Last edited by CINERAMAX; 08-13-2017 at 01:23 PM.
CINERAMAX is online now  
post #7 of 98 Old 08-13-2017, 01:17 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Holy Grail's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 74
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 51 Post(s)
Liked: 6
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lygren View Post
Procella, albeit an OK system, is not even close to touching the Alcons due most importantly to Alcons' pro ribbon tech. I've had both systems over a long period of time @ our showroom; the Alcons is just such a stellar system (we use the CRMS compacts now though, CRMS before that, both are great!)!!

As you are probably aware, CRMS mkII will be on display at Cedia this year; hearing is believing!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Thank you for your input. Maybe I need to shorten my list a bit further, leaving Procella out. However, I also like to hear other people's opinions on this as well.
Lygren likes this.
Holy Grail is offline  
post #8 of 98 Old 08-13-2017, 01:20 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Holy Grail's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 74
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 51 Post(s)
Liked: 6
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post
I've heard them all.... All good.

Art graciously invited a few of us over for a demo of his new JBL M2 / Synthesis / Trinnov set up (and mega 16' screen) and I have to tell you, the audio was outstanding! I really liked those speakers... not 'horn' like in terms of harshness, etc. Really clean! And Mark Seaton's bass - wow!!~
Does he combine the M2 with speakers from the Synthesis range? That is interesting as I thought that it was difficult to find speakers that are timbre matched with the M2's.
Holy Grail is offline  
post #9 of 98 Old 08-13-2017, 01:21 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Holy Grail's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 74
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 51 Post(s)
Liked: 6
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post
I've heard them all.... All good.

Art graciously invited a few of us over for a demo of his new JBL M2 / Synthesis / Trinnov set up (and mega 16' screen) and I have to tell you, the audio was outstanding! I really liked those speakers... not 'horn' like in terms of harshness, etc. Really clean! And Mark Seaton's bass - wow!!~
BTW: Mark Seaton's systems will definitely be on my shortlist for subs;-)
Holy Grail is offline  
post #10 of 98 Old 08-13-2017, 01:23 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Holy Grail's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 74
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 51 Post(s)
Liked: 6
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Integration View Post
Wait until Cedia there is "New Old" player that would likely make your short list. I have heard it and it is clearly better than at least 4 of your 6.
I am not going to CEDIA, but I will check the reports.

My guess is you are referring to Klipsch;-)
Mr. Integration likes this.
Holy Grail is offline  
post #11 of 98 Old 08-13-2017, 01:26 PM
LICENSED TO THRILL
 
CINERAMAX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: PAN-ATLANTIC
Posts: 17,660
Mentioned: 48 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2232 Post(s)
Liked: 1281
Send a message via Skype™ to CINERAMAX
yeah knock out anything starting with pro on your list.

How may speakers do you plan on setting up? Alsons and JBL save you speakers count.
CINERAMAX is online now  
post #12 of 98 Old 08-13-2017, 01:31 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
torii's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 3,210
Mentioned: 23 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1489 Post(s)
Liked: 801
wouldnt the size of your space have some impact on the brands you narrow it down to? not a big movie guy, but boring sunday for me.

Power: Marantz sr7008, NAD C 275Bee x 2, Video: Oppo 103, Samsung 75un6300
Speakers: Focal aria 948, Focal cc900, Klipsch synergy KSF 10.5 Subs: Rythmik FV25HP, Rythmik FV15HP
torii is offline  
post #13 of 98 Old 08-13-2017, 01:33 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Holy Grail's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 74
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 51 Post(s)
Liked: 6
Quote:
Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post
if you got to cedia ask for the not featured ATMOS tops-buster demo at alcons. Enough of this ATMOS that sounds like glorified 7.1, its time to put cojones ioverhead, it works great, do not settle for half the soundfield.

The way humans react to speaker demos unfairly give the jbl an advantage over say alcons. Why? Of course the problem with people actually liking horns at a good audition, is the fact that the time smear evident in the mlssa waterfall plots is not something that is clearly evident at first, for example i loved the Pro Audio Technology setup at SKOLL for weeks but i was never listening for an extended 2 week session.and every a list celebrity was raving about it, it wasn't until one period of 2 weeks where we were doing mods on the projector and servicing the media server where it suddenly hits you that that something in the information is lacking clarity. Furthermore this short transient response of ribbons with such controlled directivity is what creates the untouchable phantom images that the alcons portrays. The systems directivity spews less garbage on to the walls making the system very easy to treat the room for. More diffusion less absorption.

I recently had a chance to see the full exploitation of the phantoms with the crms system playing a 64 object aural spatial demo and tit was an epiphany, walter is making for me a special clilip demo that is the definitive object extravagant atmos demo. Anyone interested in hearing the alcons with this loop pm me.
Hi Peter,

Thanks for your valuable input. Yes, I will include overhead speakers (not sure how much; at least 8, max 15). Not sure whether it's better to put them on the ceiling or high against the walls, though?
I listened to the Alcons demo at ISE, which was indeed rather impressive (it was the demo with the 'musical objects' flying around the room, could be the same demo you are referring to). However, I also listened to a Wisdom Audio demo (a few years ago), which blew me away. Both Alcons & Wisdom are using ribbons;-) The problem is that a serious system (say 32 channels) with Wisdom Audio line arrays (not only for fronts but also surround and tops) cost a small fortune... (north of 250K).
Holy Grail is offline  
post #14 of 98 Old 08-13-2017, 01:43 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Holy Grail's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 74
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 51 Post(s)
Liked: 6
Quote:
Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post
yeah knock out anything starting with pro on your list.

How may speakers do you plan on setting up? Alsons and JBL save you speakers count.
Hi Peter,

11 speaker on ear level (center 0°, left & right front 30°, left & right wide on 60°, surrounds on 90°, extra surrounds on 123°, back surrounds on 150°)
11 height speakers (or a few more or less), but those are not placed in the right positions yet (red circles on the design)
Attached Images
File Type: jpeg Theater Design.jpeg (296.6 KB, 88 views)
Holy Grail is offline  
post #15 of 98 Old 08-13-2017, 01:53 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 1,935
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1264 Post(s)
Liked: 917
Quote:
Originally Posted by Holy Grail View Post
Does he combine the M2 with speakers from the Synthesis range? That is interesting as I thought that it was difficult to find speakers that are timbre matched with the M2's.
I'm not sure what he uses, but the JBL LSR708 and 705 are apparently very close to the M2 in terms of sound. In the M2 vs Ultimate Salon2 shootout thread over in the Speakers forum there's mention of an immersive audio demo that was done as part of the gtg this weekend using M2s for LCR, LSR708s for surrounds, and Revel C763Ls for in-ceiling all run by the new Synthesis SDP-75.
John Schuermann likes this.

HT: Sony 940C, Oppo 203, Harman/Kardon DPR1001, Infinity Interlude IL40 x2, Infinity Interlude IL36C, Infinity MS-1 ii x2, Infinity MSW-1
Computer: Elac Uni-Fi UB5 x2, Elac Element EA101EQ integrated amp, SVS SB-12NSD
Dedicated 2-channel: Infinity Intermezzo 4.1t towers, Bluesound Node 2, Emotiva PT-100, Crown XLS 1502, Furman PL-8C
TuteTibiImperes is online now  
post #16 of 98 Old 08-13-2017, 03:23 PM
LICENSED TO THRILL
 
CINERAMAX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: PAN-ATLANTIC
Posts: 17,660
Mentioned: 48 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2232 Post(s)
Liked: 1281
Send a message via Skype™ to CINERAMAX
Holy Grail I'm going to fix your design to most IMMERSIVE in the world with alcons keeping the count , i think. Ill redraw you a setup, i see a few things done to spec. Never trust the specs, you do not know who wrote them, business suits and imperceptibly deaf engineers mostly.

European kit is great but their labs are bereft of the one indispensable source component for true immersive audio video, they are literally in the dark ages because of that. That is why I keep on criticizing them for ignoring the importance of robust tops.
CINERAMAX is online now  
post #17 of 98 Old 08-13-2017, 03:42 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
torii's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 3,210
Mentioned: 23 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1489 Post(s)
Liked: 801
well 125db at 2m is crap in a huge space unless you have 10 of em or more...but in a smaller space it may be overkill....and thats not even going into spatial accuracy.

Power: Marantz sr7008, NAD C 275Bee x 2, Video: Oppo 103, Samsung 75un6300
Speakers: Focal aria 948, Focal cc900, Klipsch synergy KSF 10.5 Subs: Rythmik FV25HP, Rythmik FV15HP
torii is offline  
post #18 of 98 Old 08-13-2017, 04:03 PM
Advanced Member
 
head_unit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 630
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 236 Post(s)
Liked: 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by Holy Grail View Post
Any thoughts?
Yes, what kind of ROOM is this going into? And what are you going to play?* (Movies? Music? What kind? How loud?). And yeah, what vague budget are you thinking? What do you want this to LOOK like (for instance, there were some very cool and dynamic speakers at the LA Audio Show, no box, clear glass plinth, but for a very open room and stereo methinks. MBL also sounded awesome, but again needs significant breathing room and I'm not sure how well they would work with movies. I heard those JBLs at the same show-the demo guy said "this is a rare speaker that sounds neutral, but will really rock and roll" which I agreed after an extended demo.

*In real life, money is always an issue. Unless one is incredibly wealthy, there are always alternate things to spend the money on. So for instance, if you don't care about movies so much, Atmos is kind of a waste of money. Better to concentrate the money making fewer channels more excellent. If you DO watch a lot of movies or live videos, maybe Atmos makes sense. And I *believe* that should be in-ceiling but maybe it depends on your space. There is a discontinuity between mixing and playback-you see 7.1 setups or whatever, but a real theater has umpteen of the same side speaker well above ear height along the wall of a VERY tall ceiling-nothing to do with home situations.
head_unit is offline  
post #19 of 98 Old 08-13-2017, 04:06 PM
LICENSED TO THRILL
 
CINERAMAX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: PAN-ATLANTIC
Posts: 17,660
Mentioned: 48 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2232 Post(s)
Liked: 1281
Send a message via Skype™ to CINERAMAX
My first recommendation: One of about five...

The problem with the ise demos is that they try to accommodate all formats, bad move. They make a good speaker but they have won all the awards when i curated the demo, not this year.

You have very smartly limited the number of chairs not to dilute the atmos effect, the listeners exclusion box is the parameter where all the audience is included for the tops atmos coverage, the problem is that everyone is unaware of my seminal experience when i flew into the gravity atmos premiere, i heard sounds going around my head and through my torso, there i realise the home atmos and cedia certification level designs that try to accommodate rows of 6 and 8 are totally idiotic way not to achieve the around your head envelopment. That is why I have started the selfish bastard school of tops design, and for it to work you cannot have more than 4 seats per row max in the listener exclusion box (and you are stretching it - prefer 2 seater). The box is normally defined by the arm rests, but because we are selfish immersive bastards that need to make the most out of the measly 12-16 objects given, we cheat a bit, instead of putting the atmos tops on the outer seat armrests move em in 30cm? where they are just about the shoulders of the two people seated next to you, you get 100% perfect they get 87% perfect. More seats rob you from your birthright to be relentlessly assaulted and engulfed by good atmos. I say people following the home atmos guidelines should stay with 7.1 because it sounds like an elevated 7.1, that is not what we accomplished, in Murats Hyperion, and recreated partially at cedia last, and after moving speakers on poles in the small room lab I can categorically say the earth is round.




Next I am going to comment on the FOCAL POINTS, you have surround speakers perpendicular to your seat rows, WRONG.

Also width channels are an extension of the frontal stage and should be aimed at mlp so if you have alcons crms for lcr, you can use crmsc, rear sides surround should also be crmsc (it creates an intimacy box that works well with atmos or neural x) what this gives you for example in Filmixer's Underworld evolution Lycan encounter in some nordic cave, is highly localisable LOW Bass. Low bass need to be highly localisable the .1 has no business operating at the ranges they normally do, I like multidirectional bass, and everyone talks out of the toilet quoting small rooms acoustics physic but until you try it.... A King Crimson (not octopus) Bluray 5.1 mix i swore somone was kicking my chair from the left rear, now that is awesome bass, not theis mono crap that dilutes fantastic low end soundscaping. They all not have to be floorstanders the fronts, the widths and the surround 2 do, screw the rears you cannot perceive.

Something like this:

I'm waiting for cedia to draw the new tops.

Give me some time to sketch.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Theater Design change one of five exclusion box.jpg (475.0 KB, 580 views)

Last edited by CINERAMAX; 08-13-2017 at 04:26 PM.
CINERAMAX is online now  
post #20 of 98 Old 08-14-2017, 03:10 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
donaldk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 3,919
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 490 Post(s)
Liked: 122
Barco used the small Kaleidascape (even pre-production on first year demo) at ISE demo, so could Alcons now it has an US office. Perhaps it means flying the box over, or your old vpn idea, but if Barco can, why not the guys in Zwaag.

Remarkable that they don't have access to proper Atmos sourcematerial given the involvement in commercial cinema. The first Atmos theater in Holland (Europe?) had 64 channels of Alcons.

Last edited by donaldk; 08-14-2017 at 03:15 AM.
donaldk is online now  
post #21 of 98 Old 08-14-2017, 04:32 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Ericglo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Just below the US in South Florida
Posts: 9,492
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2175 Post(s)
Liked: 1066
Quote:
Originally Posted by Holy Grail View Post
Gents,

I am looking for a great performing high-end speaker system for my new HT. I was thinking of the following candidates:

1-JBL (based on M2)
2-Alcons Audio (based on CRMS MkII)
3-Wisdom Audio (based on Sage L150i or Cinema Line 3)
4-Procella (based on P815 or P860)
5-Pro Audio Technology
6-Quested

Any thoughts?
Is this just for movies or more of a mix? Are you hiring someone like Keith Yates?

As you mentioned, Wisdom gets expensive quick. Last year at Cedia, their demo room was IIRC $500k. The year before they had a smaller media room that was still over $200k.

Current projector - JVC RS25 and Marantz VP15S1
Future projector - pre-ordered new JVC from AVScience
Ericglo is online now  
post #22 of 98 Old 08-14-2017, 05:38 AM
LICENSED TO THRILL
 
CINERAMAX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: PAN-ATLANTIC
Posts: 17,660
Mentioned: 48 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2232 Post(s)
Liked: 1281
Send a message via Skype™ to CINERAMAX
Quote:
Originally Posted by donaldk View Post
Barco used the small Kaleidascape (even pre-production on first year demo) at ISE demo, so could Alcons now it has an US office. Perhaps it means flying the box over, or your old vpn idea, but if Barco can, why not the guys in Zwaag.

Remarkable that they don't have access to proper Atmos sourcematerial given the involvement in commercial cinema. The first Atmos theater in Holland (Europe?) had 64 channels of Alcons.
They seem to think it is a picture only improvement, which the insane perfect chroma resolution is, but in reality it is the best timed playback of hdmi audio completely devoid of jitter.

Eric those yamahas look awesome. I used to drool at the big ones back in 1979. But flew to Kent to pickup my pair of Ray Cook designed 105.4's instead.

Between you an me as much as I love quested and alcons if a passive system can be found that plays at ref plus 8 without the need to buy some proprietary system, i would switch to it. I like my amps ncore by ATI, Do like all my clients in Europe they have their systems built by an American. European electronics specifically amplifiers that run in 120 volts have a high rate of failure in south florida. This systems approach is truly a european anti american kick in the nuts but what can you do? I told the national sales manager of a company the other day I guess Ill have to ____your___. Unfortunately the Orpheus program is an example how the europeans are way ahead of us in psychoacoustics, and our inbreeding horn complacency has not helped. At least quested was passing on the brexit exchange rate, but what do the european companies do? When their currency is at a parity low with the dollar. They raise their prices, which in turn pisses me off. It's a very nasty expression of an unearned superiority complex, like if they had invented home theater. Call me a rebel but i have a conscience, when i sold a 60,000 sony tube 43" run of 30 with a 50k faroudja LD-1 doubler to the wealthiest Swiss in 1989 i did so fully expecting that technology to trickle down to the masses and it did, we all had dvd players with faroudjas in them.

I find European profiteering and forced purchasing of amplification for single ended passive speakers borderline malicious, as very few european amps last 7 years operating in south florida at 120 volt. And ATI does make the best multichannel amps in the world in the USA. But it is a sellers market for some of these european companies that literally have caught american technology with their pants down. Now dynaudio seems to be providing greater value for the dollar by increasing performance and keeping the cost down, Bravo.

I can't wait to sell the holiday inn express system for a new contour all esotar with weaponised woofers, hope it plays at reference plus 3.


Note: That article is dated, my interest in 3d and other bell and whistles has been completely taken over by the Kaleidescape Strato HDR color intensity and lack of artifacting. Also the use of width channels has taken some of the load of the left and right making passive system that don't pop more of an option, acoustics have doubled the rt values from 200 al padded walls that most had to new highly diffusive settings rt400.

Last edited by CINERAMAX; 08-14-2017 at 07:59 AM.
CINERAMAX is online now  
post #23 of 98 Old 08-14-2017, 05:45 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Naples, FL
Posts: 200
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 142 Post(s)
Liked: 135
Rex Anderson is offline  
post #24 of 98 Old 08-14-2017, 06:57 AM
LICENSED TO THRILL
 
CINERAMAX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: PAN-ATLANTIC
Posts: 17,660
Mentioned: 48 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2232 Post(s)
Liked: 1281
Send a message via Skype™ to CINERAMAX
Red face Thnaks Rex and Thanks John for such a wonderful exercise in transparency

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rex Anderson View Post
So the passive, devoid of any compression driver Revels beryllium domed tweeter floorstander columns won by a factor over the M2 4 to 1. May John sell a gazillion Revel salons he deserves it. The M2 has been adequately assessed for what it is the best horn speaker. I have been saying the entire west coast speaker world suffers from in breeding, studios using horns, ex thx alumni knowing nothing but horns promoting horns, Meyers, JBL, Qsc considered as the only solution for high SPL Playback.

My seminal experience flying in from a 30 speaker quested into the atmos gravity premiere in burbank Dolby office where i dove head first into learning everything i could and experimenting with ATMOS had these horribly grating fatiguing horns, the epiphany was: what if the fatigue free quested sound i just had heard at ref plus who knows what (with 135 decibel peaks and no ear damage- it felt like I had a 2 week long massage in fact). I knew then and there that tight personal envelopment around your head atmos done with ribbons would be the way of the future. Last Cinemacon Adam and Brian G witnessed how i described the Burbank room as the most enveloping around your head and through the torso room in the world, but that it was horribly fatiguing to the head of cinema atmos, he disavowed the harshness part, he is THX alumni ( i think tom holman was getting kickbacks from jbl or something i swear) i also asked him what were you thinking for leaving the widths out of the DSU. But that was before his time. Andrew now head of DOLBY Cinema Products worldwide has acknowledged in a testimonial that at my insistence the Alcons c-series b chain profiles were included in the theater designer programs dark file for atmos designers to drag and drop. Last cinemacon when i was insisting on that he did acknowledge to me that ALCONS is the very best brand of b-chain for cinemas, Im just not supposed to quote, Dolby is experimenting with Ribbons in their cinema systems too, the system sounded great in 2015 at the Vegas DC but a year later it became a bit sibilant so Dolby in fact no other company can come up to alcons for performance and longevity of a system installed, they have 8 year old systems sounding the same as the day they were commissioned in europe. Now the fact that they may be the cinema sound system is of no guarantee that the cinema line translates well into the home. Only selected speakers do that in the line. Which I will expand on tonight.

For my limited budget i can't say enough of my dynaudio setup except that they do not play well above reference levels, otherwise it is the best I've heard. Although I am missing 6 channels and those are not center and sub, cause i am selfish bastard .


The quested also sound like Dynaudio on steroids but their controlled directivity window of 60 degrees creates the need for more speakers in the bed and top channels ( Zky excepted), the problem with quested is the need for multi amplification, they need to improve their passive crossover offerings. I hit a total of 108 amplifier channels in the original Naiad design, Driven by the brexit deal purchasing advantage I did not (to my fault) question the practicalities of optimizing such a ridiculous channel count and the commissioning and servicing responsibilities that such off the top system would entail, time transpired and then i re-heard the crms based alcons at Infocomm.

At CEDIA 2015 the Barco thor demo that Gary Reber said was the best in his career as a reviewer was using the crms fed digitally by a datasat. The room had no ceiling, I could not get the system past reference plus 6, it was glorious then but i felt an extra 2 or 3 decibel would be the holy grail. The came Murats Hyperion and walter reported he had never heard or measured a system /room better than that, so i did specified for CEDIA 16 that a miniature 22 channel version of hyperion be laid out. I also wanted to ..tbc

Read article 2 to see my multimillion dollar journey to cedia 2015 .


So as you see I don't wan't to say I am always right but in a transparent world ...tbc

Time to make the American Audio Industry great again by cutting the umbilical to horns.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf ARTICLE 1.pdf (384.2 KB, 21 views)
File Type: pdf Last Pages Pages from ARTICLE 2.pdf (693.2 KB, 19 views)
File Type: pdf First Pages from ARTICLE 2.pdf (682.6 KB, 14 views)
thebland likes this.

Last edited by CINERAMAX; 08-14-2017 at 07:16 AM.
CINERAMAX is online now  
post #25 of 98 Old 08-14-2017, 12:30 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Holy Grail's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 74
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 51 Post(s)
Liked: 6
Quote:
Originally Posted by torii View Post
wouldnt the size of your space have some impact on the brands you narrow it down to? not a big movie guy, but boring sunday for me.
Good point, but I think that every speaker system from my shortlist will work.
Holy Grail is offline  
post #26 of 98 Old 08-14-2017, 12:34 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Holy Grail's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 74
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 51 Post(s)
Liked: 6
Quote:
Originally Posted by TuteTibiImperes View Post
I'm not sure what he uses, but the JBL LSR708 and 705 are apparently very close to the M2 in terms of sound. In the M2 vs Ultimate Salon2 shootout thread over in the Speakers forum there's mention of an immersive audio demo that was done as part of the gtg this weekend using M2s for LCR, LSR708s for surrounds, and Revel C763Ls for in-ceiling all run by the new Synthesis SDP-75.
Thanks for your information. I checked the LSR708i, but it's way too deep to fit in my acoustic transparent walls. I have room for a 16 cm deep speaker, but the JBL measures 29 cm (11.5"). However, the new Synthesis LCR3 and 4 will fit in my walls;-)
Holy Grail is offline  
post #27 of 98 Old 08-14-2017, 12:45 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Holy Grail's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 74
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 51 Post(s)
Liked: 6
Quote:
Originally Posted by head_unit View Post
Yes, what kind of ROOM is this going into? And what are you going to play?* (Movies? Music? What kind? How loud?). And yeah, what vague budget are you thinking? What do you want this to LOOK like (for instance, there were some very cool and dynamic speakers at the LA Audio Show, no box, clear glass plinth, but for a very open room and stereo methinks. MBL also sounded awesome, but again needs significant breathing room and I'm not sure how well they would work with movies. I heard those JBLs at the same show-the demo guy said "this is a rare speaker that sounds neutral, but will really rock and roll" which I agreed after an extended demo.

*In real life, money is always an issue. Unless one is incredibly wealthy, there are always alternate things to spend the money on. So for instance, if you don't care about movies so much, Atmos is kind of a waste of money. Better to concentrate the money making fewer channels more excellent. If you DO watch a lot of movies or live videos, maybe Atmos makes sense. And I *believe* that should be in-ceiling but maybe it depends on your space. There is a discontinuity between mixing and playback-you see 7.1 setups or whatever, but a real theater has umpteen of the same side speaker well above ear height along the wall of a VERY tall ceiling-nothing to do with home situations.
Hi Head-unit,

I added a JPEG with the room design. The system will be used 90% for movies (I have a separated 2ch system for audio). I like things loud, but not ear bleeding loud;-). Look and shape is not really important to me. There is enough room for the fronts and centre (so floorstanders are possible), they will be placed behind an AT screen. All other speakers will be built into acoustic walls and ceiling which have an acoustic transparant fabric. Depth in the walls and ceiling is max 16cm.

Thank your for the Atmos advice. Yes, it seems like the ceiling will work better then the high up the walls approach.

Budget: I'm trying to keep it around 250K max. However, 100K would be better;-)
Attached Images
File Type: jpeg Theater Design.jpeg (296.6 KB, 34 views)
Holy Grail is offline  
post #28 of 98 Old 08-14-2017, 01:04 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Holy Grail's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 74
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 51 Post(s)
Liked: 6
Quote:
Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post
My first recommendation: One of about five...

The problem with the ise demos is that they try to accommodate all formats, bad move. They make a good speaker but they have won all the awards when i curated the demo, not this year.

You have very smartly limited the number of chairs not to dilute the atmos effect, the listeners exclusion box is the parameter where all the audience is included for the tops atmos coverage, the problem is that everyone is unaware of my seminal experience when i flew into the gravity atmos premiere, i heard sounds going around my head and through my torso, there i realise the home atmos and cedia certification level designs that try to accommodate rows of 6 and 8 are totally idiotic way not to achieve the around your head envelopment. That is why I have started the selfish bastard school of tops design, and for it to work you cannot have more than 4 seats per row max in the listener exclusion box (and you are stretching it - prefer 2 seater). The box is normally defined by the arm rests, but because we are selfish immersive bastards that need to make the most out of the measly 12-16 objects given, we cheat a bit, instead of putting the atmos tops on the outer seat armrests move em in 30cm? where they are just about the shoulders of the two people seated next to you, you get 100% perfect they get 87% perfect. More seats rob you from your birthright to be relentlessly assaulted and engulfed by good atmos. I say people following the home atmos guidelines should stay with 7.1 because it sounds like an elevated 7.1, that is not what we accomplished, in Murats Hyperion, and recreated partially at cedia last, and after moving speakers on poles in the small room lab I can categorically say the earth is round.




Next I am going to comment on the FOCAL POINTS, you have surround speakers perpendicular to your seat rows, WRONG.

Also width channels are an extension of the frontal stage and should be aimed at mlp so if you have alcons crms for lcr, you can use crmsc, rear sides surround should also be crmsc (it creates an intimacy box that works well with atmos or neural x) what this gives you for example in Filmixer's Underworld evolution Lycan encounter in some nordic cave, is highly localisable LOW Bass. Low bass need to be highly localisable the .1 has no business operating at the ranges they normally do, I like multidirectional bass, and everyone talks out of the toilet quoting small rooms acoustics physic but until you try it.... A King Crimson (not octopus) Bluray 5.1 mix i swore somone was kicking my chair from the left rear, now that is awesome bass, not theis mono crap that dilutes fantastic low end soundscaping. They all not have to be floorstanders the fronts, the widths and the surround 2 do, screw the rears you cannot perceive.

Something like this:

I'm waiting for cedia to draw the new tops.

Give me some time to sketch.
Hi Peter,

Once again thank your your valuable input. Much appreciated!

- To be honest, limitating the number of seats to two rows of three wasn't a smart move. I did it because there was not enough room for more;-)

- I like your 'selfish bastard' approach for tops design;-)

- The Atmos paper (by Dolby) is the only guideline (on paper) I have. Where the hell is Arnaud Laborie's paper he promised to release??

- I know that wides should be aimed at MLP, but maybe I have not enough room to do that (mounting the speaker flat is easier then mounting in with a 30° turn, I only have 16 cm in my acoustic wall.)

- You say that I shouldn't use a perpendicular approach for the surrounds (at 90° from MLP). Why is that?

- Multidirectional low bass sounds like an exciting idea, but what about the fact that people are suppose to be unable to define directivity in low bass (< 80Hz, or okay, < 60 Hz). Anyway, Mr Toole has a point stating that different sources for low bass (playing different low bass content) are a recipe for messy, unpredictable bass across the room. And okay about the King Crimson material, but how many other discs with low bass material across several channels are there out there?

- "I like multidirectional bass, and everyone talks out of the toilet quoting small rooms acoustics physic" This expression is new to me, but gave me a good laugh anyway, haha;-)
Holy Grail is offline  
post #29 of 98 Old 08-14-2017, 01:08 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Holy Grail's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 74
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 51 Post(s)
Liked: 6
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rex Anderson View Post
Yes (only bits and pieces). However, this made me decide to add Revel to my shortlist;-)
Holy Grail is offline  
post #30 of 98 Old 08-14-2017, 01:19 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
torii's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 3,210
Mentioned: 23 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1489 Post(s)
Liked: 801
when you holy grail guys build your dream theaters do you splurge on front 3? or is every speaker a splurge/same?

Power: Marantz sr7008, NAD C 275Bee x 2, Video: Oppo 103, Samsung 75un6300
Speakers: Focal aria 948, Focal cc900, Klipsch synergy KSF 10.5 Subs: Rythmik FV25HP, Rythmik FV15HP
torii is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Ultra Hi-End HT Gear ($20,000+)

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off