Alcons.... Did it again. Amazing demo - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 184 Old 09-07-2017, 04:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Alcons.... Did it again. Amazing demo

My wife and I as well as Brad sat through the Alcons demo and the dynamics, the base, the everything is just outstanding. Loud and clear... The Altitude combo is just amazing... a great sense of space and directional cues An outstanding 13.x.8 system.

Peter, it was like you were there - the volume level was off the charts... but oh so fun!
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post #2 of 184 Old 09-07-2017, 05:26 PM
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Sounds like an amazing demo! Love to hear an Alcons setup sometime.
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post #3 of 184 Old 09-07-2017, 05:59 PM
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Sounds like fun. Can you compare the sound of the Alcons to your previous Questeds?

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post #4 of 184 Old 09-07-2017, 07:29 PM
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My ears got a real good cleaning! LOUD! I measured peak DB 91 to 95 max SPL! Sorry but not my cup of tea!
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post #5 of 184 Old 09-07-2017, 10:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post
My ears got a real good cleaning! LOUD! I measured peak DB 91 to 95 max SPL! Sorry but not my cup of tea!
I would ask them to turn it down if you want to get a better idea of how they sound at more moderate levels.

Having an Alcons system is a lot like getting a hyper car. Can go a lot faster (louder) than you can safely do but it can be tempting to "play."
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post #6 of 184 Old 09-07-2017, 10:20 PM
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Originally Posted by thxman View Post
I would ask them to turn it down if you want to get a better idea of how they sound at more moderate levels.

Having an Alcons system is a lot like getting a hyper car. Can go a lot faster (louder) than you can safely do but it can be tempting to "play."
Please explain if you own or have listened to the system and the basis for your statement. Thanks!

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post #7 of 184 Old 09-07-2017, 10:53 PM
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I think everyone thought it was to loud.

I came in at the end, so I won't make any judgments till I go back. A couple of people mentioned it was to bright.
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post #8 of 184 Old 09-07-2017, 11:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post
Please explain if you own or have listened to the system and the basis for your statement. Thanks!
Basically, they can play very loud, to the point of causing hearing damage (dangerous part). What I meant by "play" was there are times where I may really like the sound in a certain scene. Lets use the Godzilla (2014) airport roar for an example. I have increased the volume quite a bit for this scene and the experience is outstanding. By outstanding, I mean, lifelike, scary, goosebump evoking, etc.

The problem is that you cannot safely watch movies at high volumes, regardless of how fun (or not fun) it may be. I correlated this to a fast car as they tend to be less exciting at normal speed limits so the temptation to go a bit faster is there.

I hope that clarifies my post some.
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post #9 of 184 Old 09-07-2017, 11:29 PM
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Being part of the setup by supplying the screen I will first of all agree that the setup this year sounds (and hopefully looks??!) amazing! I´ll certainly forward the feedback of volume! Some clips were in my opinion played back too loud today, so basically - in my opinion at least - we need to evaluate volume specifically related to each clip in even greater degree... We´ll alternative content every day, so welcome back to a second listening sequence tomorrow or Saturday!
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post #10 of 184 Old 09-07-2017, 11:53 PM - Thread Starter
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We have a big group - dinner group tonite - coming back to Alcons tomorrow at 11.

Really great sound.
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Goodbye to a great audio and video genius and writer... JOHN GANNON. I enjoyed your friendship, wit and a nice long run we took around Indianapolis at CEDIA years back... and for buying my Runco 980 Ultra years back... you saved my ass! Rest in peace.
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post #11 of 184 Old 09-08-2017, 01:11 AM
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What was the set up in terms of speaker models they used from their line up? Did they use their new speaker for ceiling ATMOS or surrounds? I figured they used their specific AMPS for it but interested in the actual set up and size of room compared to home theater size rooms? Besides volume what about quality and immersion effect? ATMOS and Aura-3d are important to me for theater sound so that is important quality? Also interested in the speakers that they felt were needed for the setup to achieve this immersion and quality.

thanks, exciting stuff.
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post #12 of 184 Old 09-08-2017, 02:17 AM
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Peter stay safe. You'll run into traffic jams, from they have been showing on the TV news here, so take not only water, but also some Mexican Coca Cola (Real Sugar), and some Mars bars, aswell as some solid food.
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post #13 of 184 Old 09-08-2017, 02:20 AM
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Any news on the 8 channel AMP ? That would be a game-changer, for the pockets of course.
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post #14 of 184 Old 09-08-2017, 06:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by abinav555 View Post
Any news on the 8 channel AMP ? That would be a game-changer, for the pockets of course.
It´s in the pipeline, but simply takes time to make out with the quality Alcons requires... Early 2018 perhaps? As we are Alcons distributor for their CRMS home cinema line in Norway (we have sold and demoed Alcons CRMS for almost 10 years now!), we are certainly HIGHLY interested in a smaller 8ch amp too...
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post #15 of 184 Old 09-08-2017, 06:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thxman View Post
Basically, they can play very loud, to the point of causing hearing damage (dangerous part). What I meant by "play" was there are times where I may really like the sound in a certain scene. Lets use the Godzilla (2014) airport roar for an example. I have increased the volume quite a bit for this scene and the experience is outstanding. By outstanding, I mean, lifelike, scary, goosebump evoking, etc.

The problem is that you cannot safely watch movies at high volumes, regardless of how fun (or not fun) it may be. I correlated this to a fast car as they tend to be less exciting at normal speed limits so the temptation to go a bit faster is there.

I hope that clarifies my post some.
Thanks for your clarification!


It wasn't just too loud!


All the cops played were action and one could say noise focused to impress, sort of louder is better, with relatively little vocals/talking.


I asked them to play the clip from La-La-Land or some other musical concert clip with singing but they refused to play La-La-Land and had no other clips for concerts with vocals. They played a Jeff Beck clip w/o vocals and for me not very Musical and sort of Bland!😇


To me bass was at times outstanding (motorcycle scenes) and most of the times loud but somewhat bloated. Sorry but I am used to tight, quick, dynamic but still Musical bass in my own theater the same for both music and movies.


Now maybe if I had and tweaked this package it would be fantastic, But why? My current home theater I can play at whatever level I feel like and not play it too loud or fatiguing, My current system is most dynamic and musical! Although there were times and parts of the demo that I really liked, just not enough of the good vs the not so good to really interest me! L


With the multiple massive 15" and 21" subs it was interesting that I measured peak dab of 91 to 95 dB! I assume my iphone decibel meter is about 6 dB low at the low end. In my theater I play lower volume than they did, my subs are merely 12" JL Audio f212s, yet even at lower volume levels my peak dB gets somewhat higher at times! I wonder if too much too big bass actually caused more room mode issues here and also my experience is that this can interfere with the Sonics of the midrange and the overall musicality of the system! The Trinnov surround processing and room correction I'm sure is outstanding, but it can do a better job particularly with bass and midrange if it has less to correct in the first place!

I gotta hear the Trinnov in Mark Burnstein's mostly MBL setup! I bet it's to die for!


I noticed that on Interstellar the Trinnov did a great job converting Dolby TrueHD 7.1 to Dolby Surround (Atmos)!
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post #16 of 184 Old 09-08-2017, 07:48 AM
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Alcons was having a lot of problems with their Trinnov, having to re-boot it between clips. They were replacing the unit last night. Trying to get the HDMI issues worked out was a major distraction for them. I'm not sure they time to fully dial in the subs. They were going to have a music demo but that got pushed until today. The clips they choose were limited, not wanting to introduce more source challlanges. The clips they did play were dramatic but not musical. At the very end of the day they did play some CD clips and turned off the subs and played the CRMS' full range. Very musical. Hopefully they will have it straighten out today. Having said all that the clips were very dynamic and cllean with good imaging. I'm not sure how bullets ricocheting around a B-17 could not sound a bit stark at reference. I spent a good amount of time in the Wisdom demo, to me in comparison they sounded compressed and lifeless over about 150Hz.
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post #17 of 184 Old 09-08-2017, 10:11 PM
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Alcons was having a lot of problems with their Trinnov, having to re-boot it between clips. They were replacing the unit last night. Trying to get the HDMI issues worked out was a major distraction for them. I'm not sure they time to fully dial in the subs. They were going to have a music demo but that got pushed until today. The clips they choose were limited, not wanting to introduce more source challlanges. The clips they did play were dramatic but not musical. At the very end of the day they did play some CD clips and turned off the subs and played the CRMS' full range. Very musical. Hopefully they will have it straighten out today. Having said all that the clips were very dynamic and cllean with good imaging. I'm not sure how bullets ricocheting around a B-17 could not sound a bit stark at reference. I spent a good amount of time in the Wisdom demo, to me in comparison they sounded compressed and lifeless over about 150Hz.
Ah Ah. Sounds like my post about the subs being off and causing midrange issues was correct. Still doesn't excuse having demo clips with virtually no talking or singing and only loud action, and their not playing the one vocal/singing/musical clip they had from La-La-Land despite my asking twice. And playing SO LOUD and not more quickly recognizing the sonic issues! Some folks who don't know better get impressed by brief loud fatiguing demos but living with it is another story.

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post #18 of 184 Old 09-08-2017, 11:50 PM
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I believe they played the LaLaland clip today.

I think they did turn it down today from yesterday. It seems to be a recurring theme for the whole show and maybe this year more than most. I had multiple people tell me that demos were to loud for their comfort.

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post #19 of 184 Old 09-09-2017, 01:18 AM - Thread Starter
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I would bet that today, compared to yesterday, things were turned down both 3 to 6 Dbs.

With that, sonically, best of show... easily. Dynamics, punch, sense of space... all good.

I'd like to own that system.
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I had spent 6 months compiling the most nuanced atmos demo without a single shot in it, but alas...hurricane Irma.

I have several emails saying that the dynaudio was embarrassingly bland sounding. Still my two top. Brands are the show contenders. As predicted.

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post #21 of 184 Old 09-09-2017, 11:51 AM
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I had spent 6 months compiling the most nuanced atmos demo without a single shot in it, but alas...

I have several emails saying that the dynaudio was embarrassingly bland sounding. Still my two top. Brands are the show contenders. As predicted.
Yes, the Dynaudio on Thursday was bland, that was my thought exactly. My preference was Alcon first, JBL synthesis second, and Dynaudio third.
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Alcons was worth attending CEDIA this year for me - that is the only demo which meant anything to me this CEDIA....
This years presentation was very well done - calibration was much better than last year - I have Ribbon LCR's for 6 years and I love the characteristics of Ribbons.
To have all speakers with Ribbon technology including Ceiling is just phenomenal.
JBL was second but Alcons was ahead of it by spades IMHO.
I came home last night and listened to my system and am underwhelmed as compared to the ALCON demo and they were not even operating in a engineered room.
I appreciate the thought process behind a loud high db demo in this system - in a high quality system like this - the dynamics improve - clarity improves and the quickness of ribbons (and ALCON ribbons are not of the garden variety kind - very special) I did not mind the loudness in fact I enjoyed it.
This could be definitely my next speaker system....
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post #23 of 184 Old 09-09-2017, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post
I had spent 6 months compiling the most nuanced atmos demo without a single shot in it, but alas...

I have several emails saying that the dynaudio was embarrassingly bland sounding. Still my two top. Brands are the show contenders. As predicted.
It is interesting that people said the Dynaudio demo was bland. What I heard was that it did not cause threshold shift as other demos did even though we had a higher SPL. Our goal was to have a system that sounded as natural as possible. The beauty of the business is that there is different speakers for different tastes. I was at every demo. I did get some complaints about the choice of demo material. It was a bit heavy on music and light on explosions. Perhaps that is why it sounded bland to some. We had a great time showing it and it was great to meet some forum friends.

Perhaps next year they will create a booth that is designed for sound instead of a hotel suite with windows on one side and a drop ceiling that flexes.

I am glad that people got to hear the system. I am heading to hear some of the other demos now. My understanding is that the Dynaudio system is substantially less expensive as well. 150k retail with all the amps, processors, subs and onsite calibration included.
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post #24 of 184 Old 09-09-2017, 07:19 PM
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If some folks prefer the loud booming bass interfering with musicality and midrange of the Sonics - not what the sound mixer intended- where the system allegedly sounds "good" for movies but not for music, then by all means go with Alcons and buy it and have them give you that sound. In earlier years I thought that type of "cineramax" sound was good, too - but I evolved to appreciate how a fun blasting demo for a whole movie is not what I want or what the director intended! But apparently this does in fact work for some folks!
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post #25 of 184 Old 09-09-2017, 07:22 PM
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I had spent 6 months compiling the most nuanced atmos demo without a single shot in it, but alas...

I have several emails saying that the dynaudio was embarrassingly bland sounding. Still my two top. Brands are the show contenders. As predicted.
You weren't there. You don't know. It's unprofessional to disparage a competitor and to me is a negative sign when sales folks don't take the high road I'll put my acumen experience and intellect against yours re audiophile sonics any day! I'm just a mostly retired attorney who as AVS Special Guests Forum initiator and moderator 1999 to 2003 built that forum from nothing for free due to my love and passion for high end audio and home theater. I experienced both rooms and I know what I heard! Let's leave it at that!
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post #26 of 184 Old 09-09-2017, 08:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post
If some folks prefer the loud booming bass interfering with musicality and midrange of the Sonics - not what the sound mixer intended- where the system allegedly sounds "good" for movies but not for music, then by all means go with Alcons and buy it and have them give you that sound. In earlier years I thought that type of "cineramax" sound was good, too - but I evolved to appreciate how a fun blasting demo for a whole movie is not what I want or what the director intended! But apparently this does in fact work for some folks!
Wow, that is a lot of insults coming from someone who spends thousands on worthless speaker wire. I was not there this year but have had Alcons in my home for over a year. I don't use their subs, I use Seaton F18s and I also have a JL Audio F113 (used to have 2) in my bedroom. I can assure you, I do like high quality audio and I spent 9 years seeking out my speaker system. You saw one bad demo and keep coming here to bash Alcons and everyone that likes them. Not cool.
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post #27 of 184 Old 09-09-2017, 08:14 PM
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im not even close to this price bracket, but 91-95 db? I must be measuring stuff wrong.

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post #28 of 184 Old 09-09-2017, 08:20 PM
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SB,

Good seeing you but I must say as I indicated when we met yesterday briefly I think you reacting a bit harshly to Peter's posting style and passion of his beliefs.

You are a lawyer by trade so read his post again. He stated he help build the demo material and his comments where based on emails he received.

That said as you said earlier let's leave it to that.

I have a tremendous respect for Tom and Walter and the various markets and venues they serve. I commend them for bringing that experience and knowledge to home cinema.

For me they had great dynamics and the surround field was the best in regards to the immersive experience. However, to me, Alcon was too loud even though I was told they throttled it down today. When trying to switch sources and listen to music in Auro 3D they where hampered by a defeffective Trinnov.

Now the tough part and this is not an attempt to derail the thread, provoke argument or minimize the Alcon experience I preferred the Dynaudio. I thought it was cleaner and less fatiguing. At just under 104dB it was just a pleasant and satisfying session.

The music Demo was superb in my very humble opinion.
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post #29 of 184 Old 09-09-2017, 08:24 PM
 
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I don't need to have been there I am their biggest dealer, and if u read the Jan 2016 article in widescreen review, it shows how bringing Alcons to Cedia culminated a 30 year evolutionary process, no Peter no Alcons at cedia. Like it or not a force to contend with. Proud papa

Relax, their subs are sloppy, they know it. I love dynaudio but not over reference. I'm just happy they built the new speaker as I have been asking for it, I actually had qiuested design the zky wide angle and the wallz for vertical mounting. Unfortunately I drove half of my dynaudio and ati b chain Friday to Alan's to save it from Irma, now destined to be soaked by the gulf. So my replacement will be Alcons, cause dome tweeter, unless arrayed cannot couple with atmos, I blew 3 of my brand new tops, 2 while listening to wonder wo,an. 😀

I don't like being called a salesman. Why do you keep on harping of who you were in 2000. I miss the point.

The dynaudio has the benefit of building their low, mid, highs and overs and they are super cohesive.

Those little new Alcons with jl subs is all I need to build every system it'll sell for the next 10 years.

My third great surround system was forgate steering logic and Martin Logan monoliths front and sequels rears. I loved the ethereal and gigantic sound space they had excellent phantom.

Alcons is like Martin Logan without limits. Don't be upset that something comes to America to disrupt the audiophile industry you are so vested into.

The dynaudio system should use a mid esoter like the Munro m4 system..the bigger brother to the M2.

I'm sorry I could not make it. You would realize that I'm much less of a dick in person.😀

Still my body of work has been trendsetting in dynaudio and Alcons for home theater, are they perfect, no but both will get better, but hey I am about to lose 70 grand tomorrow cut me some slack❤️
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post #30 of 184 Old 09-09-2017, 08:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mmiles View Post
SB,

Now the tough part and this is not an attempt to derail the thread, provoke argument or minimize the Alcon experience I preferred the Dynaudio. I thought it was cleaner and less fatiguing. At just under 104dB it was just a pleasant and satisfying session.

The music Demo was superb in my very humble opinion.
now that kind of listening level is superb imo...I guess the space dictates alot but if in 100k + territory I would want 100db+ out of speaks and 115+++ out of subs...but thats just my lil opinion.
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Power: Marantz sr7008, NAD C 275Bee x 2, Video: Oppo 103, Samsung 75un6300
Speakers: Focal aria 948, Focal cc900, Klipsch synergy KSF 10.5 Subs: Rythmik FV25HP, Rythmik FV15HP
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