CEDIA 2017 reviews...Where are they? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 81 Old 09-09-2017, 10:01 AM - Thread Starter
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CEDIA 2017 reviews...Where are they?

Guys/gals

The show is almost over.

Where are the new projector reviews? Sony the only thing anybody saw?

Anything new at the show that grabs you?

Screens Any new screen material?

Has anyone seen the DPI Highlite Laser/ Stewart screen demo? Opinions?

How was the Barco demo? Anybody seeing rainbows?
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post #2 of 81 Old 09-09-2017, 01:36 PM
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I concur.. How about that new Barco?
Someone wrote that it was better than Sony 885... but $10k more..
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post #3 of 81 Old 09-09-2017, 04:13 PM
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Hang tight, I'll have my impressions up in this thread by tomorrow hopefully. My first trip to cedia this year and I understand the frustration waiting for opinions to get posted.
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Best: I thought the Alcons were first rate. My favorite of show (again).

I thought the Dynaudio was competent but I couldn't get past the demo choices. Personally, I felt the material hurt what was possible with these speakers. Honestly, I would've also guessed a problem with the Datasat. It sounded more like a stereo downmix that was upmixed the the Atmos set up. Something wasn't right. Dave was a gracious host. Enjoyed meeting him.

JBl was solid.

Favorite show piece: Samsung's 'Frame' TV. The TV that can display art and looks like a piece of art. Amazing. Solved the 'bad form' problem of hanging a flat screen over a fireplace in the main living space. Now there's no need for the faux picture frame with art that rolls down to hide the flatscreen.

Wife Best of Show:Luton smart switches, low profile T-Stats and smart shades.

The Friday dinner was the best! Lotta vino and laughs.
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Goodbye to a great audio and video genius and writer... JOHN GANNON. I enjoyed your friendship, wit and a nice long run we took around Indianapolis at CEDIA years back... and for buying my Runco 980 Ultra years back... you saved my ass! Rest in peace.

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post #5 of 81 Old 09-09-2017, 05:42 PM
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post #6 of 81 Old 09-09-2017, 09:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbm007 View Post
Guys/gals

The show is almost over.

Where are the new projector reviews? Sony the only thing anybody saw?

Anything new at the show that grabs you?

Screens Any new screen material?

Has anyone seen the DPI Highlite Laser/ Stewart screen demo? Opinions?

How was the Barco demo? Anybody seeing rainbows?
Seriously! If Mark Burnstein wouldn't call and text me so much maybe I'd have time to post here! Ha! 🤣🤡🤒

You mean you don't remember me? Back 1999 - 2003, I started and moderated the AVS Tweaks forum and also the AVS Special Guests forum.

My home theater at:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1158431

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post #7 of 81 Old 09-09-2017, 11:50 PM
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Cedia 2017 Impressions:

Sorry for the long post, but you asked for it...

All of the following is my personal opinion.

Overall, I was not, and am not, impressed with Atmos. I think the amount of times it is used in film special effects is not worth the cost to implement this is a worth while way. I've also seen several movies in a Dolby prime theater (Atlanta) and couldn't tell any difference in overhead effects vs traditional surround sound commercial theaters .
I realize I'm an outlier here and everyone else but me thinks Atmos is the best thing since sliced bread. Maybe my ears are shaped funny?

Also, it's very difficult to compare demos due to big differences in room size, speaker layout, demo clips used, volume level, ambient noise, etc.

I think that overall, the size and scope of a theater have a greater impact than other variables given a minimum level of capability. In other words buy as many lumens as possible in your projector to light up the biggest screen you can get in your room, get overly capable speakers to prevent clipping and distortion and you'll be able to compete with the best theaters out there….And don't forget about your room, you should really start with your room and then fill it with the above.

Some of the highlights first:

Dynaudio off site demo in Marriott Carlsbad room- my vote for best demo of show. I sat front and center like a selfish SOB. barco balder cinemascope projector, not sure how wide the screen was (maybe 14 ft?). No fatigue and didn't even seem very loud. Great mix of music and movie dynamics with clips chosen although as others noted, it was a bit random. JL subs (double 12”- Gotham?) were very tight and tuneful, blended really well, but room wasn't quite as energized as some other demos (I forgot to ask how many they had running and was later told there were 4, I was also told that the house curve was more of a flat response due to choices made by the calibrator). Also a slight amount of rattle from the AC duct/tiles overhead during loud passages (understandable given the ballroom we were in) (Not sure how big the room was given the black drapes all around (maybe 20x30 ish with 15 ft ceilings?). 4, 8inch coaxial in ceiling speakers in backer boxes overhead with in-wall 2 ways behind curtains to the side and rear. Datasat processor. 25k watts of power. Very dynamic. Gunshots in lone survivor had great chest thump along with high end “thwack” that wasn't too loud or jarring despite 108-109db peaks (what we were told, I didn't have an spl meter with me) Peeking around the back of the cinema master 60 (the big LCR) on display was a speakon connector. These seem to be the m3xe studio monitor repackaged for high end home theater. Apparently each speaker is quad amped and capable of 135db at 1m. Was told that all audio gear in use was $150k MSRP. With a quick Google search; The studio version is driven actively with dsp in the lab gruppen PLM10000Q amps that are packaged with the monitors.
The demo however used ATI amps to my knowledge but I'm not sure if there was a dsp/crossover in the amp or how exactly the system was being driven with the datasat (active vs passive ). Again as an entire demo (audio+video) if I could take home only 1 demo and put it in my house, this would be the one for me. I thought it was best of show.

And perhaps my favorite part of the demo was before it even started. While waiting for people to find their seats and file in, they played a nice Latin jazz percussive piece (sing, sing, sang?) that was phenomenal. Super wide sound stage, trumpets wailing that sounded like the real deal, great foot tapping percussive mid bass that was very “live” and again absolutely no fatigue, super smooth. Best of show

Jbl/synthesis demo
Superb dialogue intelligibility, forgot I was watching a demo during passengers, giant screen, scl-2 speakers go 10db higher than scl3 and 4. 8 15in subs (assuming ported), great balance and played at reasonable but still exciting levels, they used again for the LCR, the vintage looking passive 2 way with the same drivers as the m2 but the wide mouth traditional horn (can't remember the model number) instead of the M2. 2nd favorite demo overall

Barco/meridian -reference quality with acoustics on wall and all run from a $2k marantz processor with dsp in the speakers themselves, 8500 lumen Loki on 14ft wide scope screen.dsp in wall speakers $4k per lcr and $3k per surround with 4 $3k subs in the corners. Exciting but not painful levels. 3rd favorite demo of the show

Pro audio tech
Acurus processor and barco balder projector, high db levels but not too much. in wall double 5¼ inch LCR with 300 ish watts a piece, 1ru amp and 2 ported 15in subs get plenty loud, very cinematic. Best bass of the show and really energized the room. Outside of the demo booth the day before I was thinking “how obnoxious, why don't they turn down the bass”. Inside the room however it was well done and probably had some house curve boost to the low end many AVS bass heads are used to. Small in wall speakers had no problem keeping up. Probably 4th favorite demo of show

Pmc
Great demo, reference quality sound. Visceral but clean and not fatiguing. When asked to guess how loud the demo was, I guessed 95db peaks. The spl meter said 108db… Deadpool demo was great. They passed around the mid-range silk? dome driver, it probably weighed 30lb on its own and apparently hits 135db. They used I believe the BB5 XBD pair with the matching BB5 center channel. Uber expensive after a quick Google search. Also had a full Atmos setup but not sure what other speakers were used for surrounds. Unsure of amplification or if these were the active version?
Had a tiny 55inch flat panel tv so your focus was on the audio.

They also ”cheated” a bit in my book in that they had the raw file mastering score from the latest resident evil movie pulled up on a macbook pro. they played this at the beginning of the demo in plain 2 channel with no corresponding video, following that was the Deadpool freeway shootout clip, then finished with the full resident evil Blu-ray clip with atmos audio and video together utilizing the score heard earlier with dialogue and special effects on the finished Blu Ray. Also of note the bass was fantastic. Really taught and with good chest thump and room filling energy but absolutely no bloat. My second favorite audio demo of the show behind the dynaudio.

Alcons audio- impressive demo but a touch too loud (apparently 2db below reference). Dialogue intelligibility wasn't as good as pmc demo that we had heard 30 minutes earlier on the same Deadpool clip. Barco loki (7500 or so lumens) looked nice on a 15ft. Wide AT screen at 0.82 gain but lacked a bit of sharpness on some demos . This could have easily have been due to the trinnov which was acting up again (no way in hell I would spend 20k on that expensive paperweight) probably 5th favorite demo overall but just too damn loud (my wife agreed)

And in no particular order the rest of my notes from the show:

Vivitek
Impressive projectors for the price
for 22k MSRP. Dlp single chip, 4k, 8000 lumens with HDR, lens purchased separately but only $400-1200 depending on installation

2k lumen, lamp based (rated for up to 4,000 hrs), dlp single chip 4k projector for $2500- steal of a deal, image was razor sharp and bright but on a relatively small screen (maybe 7-8 ft wide and I think it was 1.3 gain) Delta (viviteks parent company) acts as an OEM for most of the projector manufacturers (barco, Christie, sim2, etc) out there and has massive resources.

Phase technology darts- surprised that this sounded pretty good with dome tweeters all around. Some low bass distortion on the end of amaze Atmos trailer? Don't think these would do well in larger rooms due to design decisions re: tweeter. Very comfortable traditional motorized theater seats.

Klipsch sr15- only demo I think I missed

Seymor screen excellence/wolf/audio excellence
Good picture with wolf $50k modded rs4500 142inch wide 2.0x1 aspect ratio screen. 3200 lumen. 0.8 gain neo woven screen . Acurus processor had issues and stopped demo short, Audio was by audio excellence a European company but demo cut eval short and I won't comment. Apparently compression driver based

Epson
Top of their line laser faux-k LCD projector -Nice projector in totally dark room on 1.3 gain screen
23 ft. Lambert calibrated
Good blacks and pleasing image overall
Didn't notice any Motion artifacts
Monitor audio sound system sounded good but at lower levels overall
Decent Atmos effects.
Lacked a bit of the wow factor from some of the other demos with mega buck projectors and high spl speakers.
Overall the best moderately priced demo of the show comparatively.

Wilson demo
4 clips, media room set up with all in wall speaker and sub products. Atmos effects were unimpressive. Good bass with 4 corner loaded subs had good couch shake ability (in wall sub with exit port of enclosure close to ceiling. Sony TV with good brightness, I like my mid range panny plasma better (last one they ever made). I was expecting a lot with this demo from reports of prior years having this a must see. A little bit of a let down.

Starke audio- nice demo with great sound quality, very flashy Speakers with gloss colored paint jobs and used large LCR even as surround speakers

Rbh
Big speakers with amt sweeter. Very comparable to emotiva (much cheaper) playing the same unbroken clip which wasn't a very good demo in my opinion (no musicality just lots of bullet effects and noise)

Golden ear sr5
Trinnov issues cut demo short but 2 channel reference towers sounded very nice. Standing in back of room-Full theater demo was nice but not reference quality (terrible positioning on my part to evaluate)

Mbl- sounded nice but a little too much smooth jazz for my taste. Low volume vocal tracks from Livingston Taylor, etc. 2 channel audio is not my thing

Yamaha
Living room/kitchen system with top of line receiver and nice speaker/Atmos setup. Terrible acoustics and not really a prime demo. Next room was a slick player piano that integrated into the musicast and Alexa system.

Emotiva - entire room was 13k for all audio gear. JVC projector, unbroken demo was comparable to rbh demo next door. Hard to justify buying a trinnov when their new processor can do most of the same thing for 5k. Also of note, 2 separate demos were having issues with their setup due to trinnov problems (alcons and golden ear)

Barco/ Steinway lyngdorf booth- multiple living room/media rooms setup and too difficult to evaluate audio or video critically given the amount light and significant show floor noise coming from all angles


Stewart
Projectors on display were barco loki and 2 dpi 20k msrp laser projectors in high ambient light open booth setting (not good for critical evaluation) forgot the model numbers because dpi has so many and they all sound the same. I think it was the e vision laser 4k-uhd that does 7500 lumens. Difficult to tell them apart without knowing which was which (large price differential however)
They also had the huge dual laser 4k dpi projector in high brightness mode on a giant screen that looked great

Digital projection
$5k laser projector with 5k lumens, only 1080p (not on display however)
Favorite projector image of the show- dual 4k laser big boy projector on 16ft wide? Screen 16x9. Must have been 60 to 90+ft Lambert's but no one in the dpi booth had an answer for how bright the image was when asked.
that was apparently, the higher contrast lower brightness model.

JVC
Faux-k e shift HDR demo, the model just beneath the rs4500. showing fast and furious on SI screen, good color but some motion artifact, def tech sound was underwealming and no seating,

2nd day viewing, rs4500 on a 16ft wide screen looked great and very cinematic
4k e shift projector showing HDR looked very full of artifacts and motion soap opera effects, maybe worse than day one?. Overall audio was an afterthought and no where close to ideal

Sony
New 885 projector 4k image was great for video only demo, audio was not up to snuff comparably and Spiderman homecoming demo was underwhelming given the scope format after being spoiled with stunning 4k nature images just prior on 16x9 screen. Back row seat with lots of heads blocking my view of the speakers (and affecting acoustics). OLED looked fantastic as did short throw laser projector on an SI screen. (But not for the price tag compared to the Epson, Hisense and vivitech models.)

Jaymar
Dbox gave both me and my wife motion sickness after a 5 minute ride (no thanks). Seats were very nice otherwise with motorized articulating headrest (why don't all chair companies do this articulating headrest?)
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post #8 of 81 Old 09-10-2017, 06:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bartl007 View Post

Overall, I was not, and am not, impressed with Atmos. I think the amount of times it is used in film special effects is not worth the cost to implement this is a worth while way.
Good post! I have not heard Atmos but I have always suspected that upgrading my Datasat LS10 to Atmos was not worthwhile "bang for the buck".

Quote:
Originally Posted by bartl007 View Post
Dynaudio off site demo in Marriott Carlsbad room- my vote for best demo of show... barco balder cinemascope projector, not sure how wide the screen was (maybe 14 ft?).
These seem to be the m3xe studio monitor repackaged for high end home theater.
How did you like the Balder as compared to the Sony and Vivetek - I realize it would be apples/oranges, considering screen size and ambient light.
Thanks for noting the mx3xe model number. At $9500/pair.. not too bad, if I ever consider changing speakers. I just got the SLS Audio speakers, which I am happy with.. I like their Ribbon speakers... At my age, I have reduced hearing.. and these ribbons seem to give me clarity (in addition to the PEQ in my Datatasat of cours).

Quote:
Originally Posted by bartl007 View Post
Vivitek
Impressive projectors for the price
for 22k MSRP. Dlp single chip, 4k, 8000 lumens with HDR, lens purchased separately but only $400-1200 depending on installation

2k lumen, lamp based (rated for up to 4,000 hrs), dlp single chip 4k projector for $2500- steal of a deal, image was razor sharp and bright but on a relatively small screen (maybe 7-8 ft wide..

Epson....Overall the best moderately priced demo of the show comparatively.
Vivitek seems very interesting. I like the idea of single chip's non convergence needed sharpness. 8000 lumens.. nice.. My only concern would be of lens quality. I have always appreciated high end all glass lenses - the Zeiss my my prior Sony Qualia and the wonderful lens in my current Wolf DCX 1000i.
I also found that the Epson lower price point projector was preferable to the jvc eshift and even the low end Sony 3XX.

Over all, very informative post. Thank you.
PS: The only point I might differ with you, would be Emotiva. I tried it (the $2500 version). It had all the bells and whistles of audio codecs but the quality of pure audio was very poor - as compared to my prior/older Lexicon MC12B - heck, even as compared to mass market receivers at its price point. Of course, I realize that the Datasat is at a much higher price point than Emotiva.. but the Datasat is an amazing processor, bar none I have heard (not that I have heard that many!). The first time, right out of the box, before any setup.. you will know, that the audio quality is just amazing! I hope the new owners would keep it as audio pristine!

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post #9 of 81 Old 09-10-2017, 09:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bartl007 View Post
Cedia 2017 Impressions:

Sorry for the long post, but you asked for it...

All of the following is my personal opinion.

Overall, I was not, and am not, impressed with Atmos. I think the amount of times it is used in film special effects is not worth the cost to implement this is a worth while way. I've also seen several movies in a Dolby prime theater (Atlanta) and couldn't tell any difference in overhead effects vs traditional surround sound commercial theaters .
I realize I'm an outlier here and everyone else but me thinks Atmos is the best thing since sliced bread. Maybe my ears are shaped funny?

Also, it's very difficult to compare demos due to big differences in room size, speaker layout, demo clips used, volume level, ambient noise, etc.

I think that overall, the size and scope of a theater have a greater impact than other variables given a minimum level of capability. In other words buy as many lumens as possible in your projector to light up the biggest screen you can get in your room, get overly capable speakers to prevent clipping and distortion and you'll be able to compete with the best theaters out there….And don't forget about your room, you should really start with your room and then fill it with the above.

Some of the highlights first:

Dynaudio off site demo in Marriott Carlsbad room- my vote for best demo of show. I sat front and center like a selfish SOB. barco balder cinemascope projector, not sure how wide the screen was (maybe 14 ft?). No fatigue and didn't even seem very loud. Great mix of music and movie dynamics with clips chosen although as others noted, it was a bit random. JL subs (double 12”- Gotham?) were very tight and tuneful, blended really well, but room wasn't quite as energized as some other demos (I forgot to ask how many they had running and was later told there were 4, I was also told that the house curve was more of a flat response due to choices made by the calibrator). Also a slight amount of rattle from the AC duct/tiles overhead during loud passages (understandable given the ballroom we were in) (Not sure how big the room was given the black drapes all around (maybe 20x30 ish with 15 ft ceilings?). 4, 8inch coaxial in ceiling speakers in backer boxes overhead with in-wall 2 ways behind curtains to the side and rear. Datasat processor. 25k watts of power. Very dynamic. Gunshots in lone survivor had great chest thump along with high end “thwack” that wasn't too loud or jarring despite 108-109db peaks (what we were told, I didn't have an spl meter with me) Peeking around the back of the cinema master 60 (the big LCR) on display was a speakon connector. These seem to be the m3xe studio monitor repackaged for high end home theater. Apparently each speaker is quad amped and capable of 135db at 1m. Was told that all audio gear in use was $150k MSRP. With a quick Google search; The studio version is driven actively with dsp in the lab gruppen PLM10000Q amps that are packaged with the monitors.
The demo however used ATI amps to my knowledge but I'm not sure if there was a dsp/crossover in the amp or how exactly the system was being driven with the datasat (active vs passive ). Again as an entire demo (audio+video) if I could take home only 1 demo and put it in my house, this would be the one for me. I thought it was best of show.

And perhaps my favorite part of the demo was before it even started. While waiting for people to find their seats and file in, they played a nice Latin jazz percussive piece (sing, sing, sang?) that was phenomenal. Super wide sound stage, trumpets wailing that sounded like the real deal, great foot tapping percussive mid bass that was very “live” and again absolutely no fatigue, super smooth. Best of show

Jbl/synthesis demo
Superb dialogue intelligibility, forgot I was watching a demo during passengers, giant screen, scl-2 speakers go 10db higher than scl3 and 4. 8 15in subs (assuming ported), great balance and played at reasonable but still exciting levels, they used again for the LCR, the vintage looking passive 2 way with the same drivers as the m2 but the wide mouth traditional horn (can't remember the model number) instead of the M2. 2nd favorite demo overall

Barco/meridian -reference quality with acoustics on wall and all run from a $2k marantz processor with dsp in the speakers themselves, 8500 lumen Loki on 14ft wide scope screen.dsp in wall speakers $4k per lcr and $3k per surround with 4 $3k subs in the corners. Exciting but not painful levels. 3rd favorite demo of the show

Pro audio tech
Acurus processor and barco balder projector, high db levels but not too much. in wall double 5¼ inch LCR with 300 ish watts a piece, 1ru amp and 2 ported 15in subs get plenty loud, very cinematic. Best bass of the show and really energized the room. Outside of the demo booth the day before I was thinking “how obnoxious, why don't they turn down the bass”. Inside the room however it was well done and probably had some house curve boost to the low end many AVS bass heads are used to. Small in wall speakers had no problem keeping up. Probably 4th favorite demo of show

Pmc
Great demo, reference quality sound. Visceral but clean and not fatiguing. When asked to guess how loud the demo was, I guessed 95db peaks. The spl meter said 108db… Deadpool demo was great. They passed around the mid-range silk? dome driver, it probably weighed 30lb on its own and apparently hits 135db. They used I believe the BB5 XBD pair with the matching BB5 center channel. Uber expensive after a quick Google search. Also had a full Atmos setup but not sure what other speakers were used for surrounds. Unsure of amplification or if these were the active version?
Had a tiny 55inch flat panel tv so your focus was on the audio.

They also ”cheated” a bit in my book in that they had the raw file mastering score from the latest resident evil movie pulled up on a macbook pro. they played this at the beginning of the demo in plain 2 channel with no corresponding video, following that was the Deadpool freeway shootout clip, then finished with the full resident evil Blu-ray clip with atmos audio and video together utilizing the score heard earlier with dialogue and special effects on the finished Blu Ray. Also of note the bass was fantastic. Really taught and with good chest thump and room filling energy but absolutely no bloat. My second favorite audio demo of the show behind the dynaudio.

Alcons audio- impressive demo but a touch too loud (apparently 2db below reference). Dialogue intelligibility wasn't as good as pmc demo that we had heard 30 minutes earlier on the same Deadpool clip. Barco loki (7500 or so lumens) looked nice on a 15ft. Wide AT screen at 0.82 gain but lacked a bit of sharpness on some demos . This could have easily have been due to the trinnov which was acting up again (no way in hell I would spend 20k on that expensive paperweight) probably 5th favorite demo overall but just too damn loud (my wife agreed)

And in no particular order the rest of my notes from the show:

Vivitek
Impressive projectors for the price
for 22k MSRP. Dlp single chip, 4k, 8000 lumens with HDR, lens purchased separately but only $400-1200 depending on installation

2k lumen, lamp based (rated for up to 4,000 hrs), dlp single chip 4k projector for $2500- steal of a deal, image was razor sharp and bright but on a relatively small screen (maybe 7-8 ft wide and I think it was 1.3 gain) Delta (viviteks parent company) acts as an OEM for most of the projector manufacturers (barco, Christie, sim2, etc) out there and has massive resources.

Phase technology darts- surprised that this sounded pretty good with dome tweeters all around. Some low bass distortion on the end of amaze Atmos trailer? Don't think these would do well in larger rooms due to design decisions re: tweeter. Very comfortable traditional motorized theater seats.

Klipsch sr15- only demo I think I missed

Seymor screen excellence/wolf/audio excellence
Good picture with wolf $50k modded rs4500 142inch wide 2.0x1 aspect ratio screen. 3200 lumen. 0.8 gain neo woven screen . Acurus processor had issues and stopped demo short, Audio was by audio excellence a European company but demo cut eval short and I won't comment. Apparently compression driver based

Epson
Top of their line laser faux-k LCD projector -Nice projector in totally dark room on 1.3 gain screen
23 ft. Lambert calibrated
Good blacks and pleasing image overall
Didn't notice any Motion artifacts
Monitor audio sound system sounded good but at lower levels overall
Decent Atmos effects.
Lacked a bit of the wow factor from some of the other demos with mega buck projectors and high spl speakers.
Overall the best moderately priced demo of the show comparatively.

Wilson demo
4 clips, media room set up with all in wall speaker and sub products. Atmos effects were unimpressive. Good bass with 4 corner loaded subs had good couch shake ability (in wall sub with exit port of enclosure close to ceiling. Sony TV with good brightness, I like my mid range panny plasma better (last one they ever made). I was expecting a lot with this demo from reports of prior years having this a must see. A little bit of a let down.

Starke audio- nice demo with great sound quality, very flashy Speakers with gloss colored paint jobs and used large LCR even as surround speakers

Rbh
Big speakers with amt sweeter. Very comparable to emotiva (much cheaper) playing the same unbroken clip which wasn't a very good demo in my opinion (no musicality just lots of bullet effects and noise)

Golden ear sr5
Trinnov issues cut demo short but 2 channel reference towers sounded very nice. Standing in back of room-Full theater demo was nice but not reference quality (terrible positioning on my part to evaluate)

Mbl- sounded nice but a little too much smooth jazz for my taste. Low volume vocal tracks from Livingston Taylor, etc. 2 channel audio is not my thing

Yamaha
Living room/kitchen system with top of line receiver and nice speaker/Atmos setup. Terrible acoustics and not really a prime demo. Next room was a slick player piano that integrated into the musicast and Alexa system.

Emotiva - entire room was 13k for all audio gear. JVC projector, unbroken demo was comparable to rbh demo next door. Hard to justify buying a trinnov when their new processor can do most of the same thing for 5k. Also of note, 2 separate demos were having issues with their setup due to trinnov problems (alcons and golden ear)

Barco/ Steinway lyngdorf booth- multiple living room/media rooms setup and too difficult to evaluate audio or video critically given the amount light and significant show floor noise coming from all angles


Stewart
Projectors on display were barco loki and 2 dpi 20k msrp laser projectors in high ambient light open booth setting (not good for critical evaluation) forgot the model numbers because dpi has so many and they all sound the same. I think it was the e vision laser 4k-uhd that does 7500 lumens. Difficult to tell them apart without knowing which was which (large price differential however)
They also had the huge dual laser 4k dpi projector in high brightness mode on a giant screen that looked great

Digital projection
$5k laser projector with 5k lumens, only 1080p (not on display however)
Favorite projector image of the show- dual 4k laser big boy projector on 16ft wide? Screen 16x9. Must have been 60 to 90+ft Lambert's but no one in the dpi booth had an answer for how bright the image was when asked.
that was apparently, the higher contrast lower brightness model.

JVC
Faux-k e shift HDR demo, the model just beneath the rs4500. showing fast and furious on SI screen, good color but some motion artifact, def tech sound was underwealming and no seating,

2nd day viewing, rs4500 on a 16ft wide screen looked great and very cinematic
4k e shift projector showing HDR looked very full of artifacts and motion soap opera effects, maybe worse than day one?. Overall audio was an afterthought and no where close to ideal

Sony
New 885 projector 4k image was great for video only demo, audio was not up to snuff comparably and Spiderman homecoming demo was underwhelming given the scope format after being spoiled with stunning 4k nature images just prior on 16x9 screen. Back row seat with lots of heads blocking my view of the speakers (and affecting acoustics). OLED looked fantastic as did short throw laser projector on an SI screen. (But not for the price tag compared to the Epson, Hisense and vivitech models.)

Jaymar
Dbox gave both me and my wife motion sickness after a 5 minute ride (no thanks). Seats were very nice otherwise with motorized articulating headrest (why don't all chair companies do this articulating headrest?)
Great recap of CEDIA!

At CEDIA I saw/heard demos not only by Alcons, but also by Dynaudio, JBL Synthesis, PCM, Golden Ear, and a few others, and the only one too loud and fatiguing for me was the Alcons which was easily so!

In my opinion, based on years of tweaking with two channel audio and home theater, and going to many live concerts particularly in more "audiophile" settings like the Musical Instrument Museum in Scottsdale, the best home theater systems, sure, should be able to play somewhat louder, but normally you will listen to them at a quieter level than in the better movie theaters, yet the bass and dynamics will be faster, quicker, clearer and more gut renching yet you can remain seated because the sonics are not fatiguing at all!

Based on what I heard from where I sat at the demos at CEDIA this year in terms of my above criteria, I rank the demos as follows in terms of quality as I've described above (I didn’t get to every single demo):

#1 Dynaudio/Datasat/JL Audio subwoofers, very musical, very dynamic, very quiet, I felt it did everything well.

#2 JBL Synthesis close to #1 in many respects but not quite as dynamic as when it came to low bass Dynaudio was more impactful. Not fatiguing at all. I would be very happy with this system, too.

#3 PCM very nice demo. Soundstage not as wonderfully wide as Dynaudio and JBL demos. I couldn’t help but think that having some separate subwoofers instead of incorporated into the massive PCM speakers wouldn’t help the bass be even better in terms of placement for room modes.

#4 Barco/Meridian/Revel - This setup takes any SSP, in this case a 2k Marantz, balanced analog out, to Meridian AD converter which converts analog to digital, then the bass management, etc begins. The rep said “Meridian is the best at AD conversion” and that’s why they do it this way. No, they do it this way to sell product! I would have liked to here the Meridian SSP with no extra digital/analog conversion stages. Once you convert analog to digital, the sonics you lose you lose forever, you can’t gain back by converting back to digital for further processing. Still not bad but not near as good as PCM.

#5 Golden Ear = Very musical but light on the bass. System for a great price has great affordable promise by revising components and perhaps subwoofers. The above demos were not in my book far too loud. I can handle a little loud without complaining or fatiguing. Sorry but I found the Alcons demo far too loud. And part of this was what I considered most of the time to be booming bass rather than more impactful, quick, non-fatiguing bass, which interfered with midrange and quietness of the system. I don't care how good the system and speakers are how potentially great they can sound when setup to my liking - when what I hear is like this I just can't enjoy it much, period, its just way to fatiguing for me! This doesn’t mean the Alcons may not be great speakers for both two channel audio and home theater. It simply means this demo doesn’t drive me to recommend what I heard in the least! This doesn’t mean that THXMan’s Alcons setup doesn’t sound great and that I wouldn’t enjoy it! But don’t ask me to extrapolate how good it could sound if setup better as I can’t speculate – its up to the pros who market and setup the speaker line and theater to do this in the first place.

You mean you don't remember me? Back 1999 - 2003, I started and moderated the AVS Tweaks forum and also the AVS Special Guests forum.

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Did anybody attend the Dirac presentation? Based on the lack of news, it seems like Unison was a no show at CEDIA.

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Did anybody attend the Dirac presentation? Based on the lack of news, it seems like Unison was a no show at CEDIA.
I talked to Dirac about this. Still working on this, not ready for primetime, no estimate for completion.

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I talked to Dirac about this. Still working on this, not ready for primetime, no estimate for completion.
Thank you for relaying this.

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Anything from Anthem.
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I was told that the dynaudio demo was with the barco balder cinemascope projector which apparently has less lumens than the regular balder. 3500?

https://www.barco.com/en/staticpages/landingpages/residential/model%20range

Again, apples and oranges and I'm more of an audio guy than video, but the image looked great, the only other projector that was head and shoulders better to my eye would be the Digital projection insight 4k laser lumen monster on an enormous 16x9 maybe 20ft wide?screen.

Lots of booths were using the Loki which I thought was incrementally better than the balder.

Comparing the 885 Sony and the top of the line vivitek, I would lean towards the vivitech just for the lumen boost but nothing close to a direct comparison. They did have the vivitech in the draper booth and the epv booth showcasing ALR screens. The draper booth had a giant 16x9 172” diagonal 1.3 gain ALR screen that was very watchable but with noticable sparkle due to the screen material that even my wife didn't like but impressive nonetheless. The EPV booth had the vivitech next to an Epson model (not sure which one) that it really put to shame on a 8ft? Wide 16x9 screen. All they were showing was bright demo nature screen clips given the high ambient light.

I'm not sure of the MSRP of the barco balder, but if it's close to 20k
I would take it over the new Sony all day. In the dynaudio demo they showed a clip from Lego Batman movie that was razor sharp with great color saturation, great motion handling with no visible artifacts and enough brightness for me on the scope screen.

If I had $2500 to spend the lamp based 4k, 2000 lumens vivitech is a no brainier. Going up to $5000 I'd look closely at the new optima 4k laser that I sadly didn't see at the show. Going up to $20,000 I really liked the Digital projection e vision 4k projector that was side by side to the Loki in the Stewart booth (mostly with ALR screens in high ambient light). They were all shooting onto similar sized screens from the same throw distance and not easy to tell apart.

Also the vivitech has mostly the same specs and i'd want to more critically evaluate those 2 options in that price range. The Sony and JVC looked great as well in their respective booths (totally blacked out) with the JVC getting my vote for more cinematic imagery. During the Spiderman homecoming clip in the Sony demo, I did notice some motion blur.

I think 4k is worth stepping up to in the projector realm. I also consider anything with the TI new pixel flipping 4k chip to be equal to true 4k given the real world usage and from demos I saw (I think the entire digital projection line that's branded as 4k uses this chip but could be wrong).

That new TI 4k chip really brings in lots of competition to the market and helps drive prices down from the stratosphere for a 4k high brightness experience. I'm not sure a “true 4k” chip really matters to most people.

I haven't really mentioned contrast because it's very difficult in show floor conditions to evaluate the most important component of the image.

Regarding the dynaudio LCR speakers they used in the demo, I believe they are $9500 per speaker without amplification for the pro version. The recommended pro amps are around the same price from my quick search. they are loaded with the dsp program specific to that speaker similar to the way the jbl m2 has pro amps that are recommended to actively drive each speaker. Back of the napkin math has the 3 LCR speakers with pro amplification at round $52k.

Also of note, the speakers are about 20 inches deep which can potentially eat up lots of room length realestate, especially if you're looking at using a perf screen.

Regarding emotiva, I have little to no experience with the brand but the value proposition is compelling. Seeing 2 trinnovs wreak havok on 2 demos on the first day of the show is certainly not much of a sales pitch for the brand given the price point. Also the fact that one of my top 3 favorite demos used a 2k marantz pre pro (barco/meridian) reenforced my belief that the price/performance curve is exponential for processors
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Quote:
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C

Overall, I was not, and am not, impressed with Atmos. I think the amount of times it is used in film special effects is not worth the cost to implement this is a worth while way. I've also seen several movies in a Dolby prime theater (Atlanta) and couldn't tell any difference in overhead effects vs traditional surround sound commercial theaters .
I realize I'm an outlier here and everyone else but me thinks Atmos is the best thing since sliced bread. Maybe my ears are shaped funny?
Nice meeting you and your wife at dinner. What a meal! Great evening.

This I think bears more discussion - you might be an outlier but its impossible to argue with your personal experience.

I think the cost:benefit ratio is the sticking point for many.... having had a couple ATMOS SSPs (Datasat RS-20, Altitude 24), I can subjectively (and objectively affirm Atmos does make soundtracks better). I think most all would agree with that... after set up, Adam put a setting that would run it at full 11.1.8 and just 7.1. Easy to compare 7.1 and 13.1.8. Clearly, when you eliminated the 8 heights in my set up, the top surround field disappeared with them. Like all else, if you have more discrete channels to add, the mix (and experience benefit. More precision. Is it a night and day difference? No.. but when I do take the heights out, it is not as pleasing or immersive. Sully comes to mind... No heights, no 'you are on the plane' sense of realism. Heights may provide moments or many minutes of improvement in most two hour films, but to me, its a must have.

Moreover, any new SSP these days include Atmos / DTS-X on board without an extra upgrade cost.

Height speaker costs can be nominal - in fact Rob Hahn (theater of theaters) employs M2s up front and SCS8s for heights. See costs of each below:

JBL M2: $10,000 each
JBL SCS8 $469 each

So, a small relative cost for heights. Now add a smaller 4 ch amp (e.g. QSC - like I used for $1K), and you have the bed of height channels on the cheap and a relatively small cost to add them to get the added benefits of Atmos. Even the Theta guys who have upgraded are lauding the gains of Atmos (though many are stuck in the past and likely won't upgrade). Kudos to Steve B and Cannga..

The relative cost is small but, in my opinion, the gains are great.

Again, nice meeting you and your wife! (Nice CEDIA review BTW)
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Goodbye to a great audio and video genius and writer... JOHN GANNON. I enjoyed your friendship, wit and a nice long run we took around Indianapolis at CEDIA years back... and for buying my Runco 980 Ultra years back... you saved my ass! Rest in peace.
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Nice meeting you and your wife at dinner. What a meal! Great evening.

This I think bears more discussion - you might be an outlier but its impossible to argue with your personal experience.

I think the cost:benefit ratio is the sticking point for many.... having had a couple ATMOS SSPs (Datasat RS-20, Altitude 24), I can subjectively (and objectively affirm Atmos does make soundtracks better). I think most all would agree with that... after set up, Adam put a setting that would run it at full 11.1.8 and just 7.1. Easy to compare 7.1 and 13.1.8. Clearly, when you eliminated the 8 heights in my set up, the top surround field disappeared with them. Like all else, if you have more discrete channels to add, the mix (and experience benefit. More precision. Is it a night and day difference? No.. but when I do take the heights out, it is not as pleasing or immersive. Sully comes to mind... No heights, no 'you are on the plane' sense of realism. Heights may provide moments or many minutes of improvement in most two hour films, but to me, its a must have.

Moreover, any new SSP these days include Atmos / DTS-X on board without an extra upgrade cost.

Height speaker costs can be nominal - in fact Rob Hahn (theater of theaters) employs M2s up front and SCS8s for heights. See costs of each below:

JBL M2: $10,000 each
JBL SCS8 $469 each

So, a small relative cost for heights. Now add a smaller 4 ch amp (e.g. QSC - like I used for $1K), and you have the bed of height channels on the cheap and a relatively small cost to add them to get the added benefits of Atmos. Even the Theta guys who have upgraded are lauding the gains of Atmos (though many are stuck in the past and likely won't upgrade). Kudos to Steve B and Cannga..

The relative cost is small but, in my opinion, the gains are great.

Again, nice meeting you and your wife! (Nice CEDIA review BTW)

It was great to meet you as well. Hope your new theater build is as epic as it sounds like it's going to be!

I figured I would stir up some discussion with my Atmos thoughts. I think I'm pretty much the only one with this stance but I still stand by it. I think the size of the theater also plays a role in costs and coverage concerns for more than one row of seats.

Another point is the content that takes advantage of the tech. Most of the “look how cool this effect is” demos have now come and gone with the Atmos demo disc stuff and we're left with real movies from the studios and the sound engineer decisions that are made in post production to take advantage of this capability.

In my opinion, there are just not that many times in a typical film when something will realistically fly over the top of the camera and utilize the direct overhead point source panning .

Of the 20+ demos at cedia my wife and I experienced, I can think of maybe 2 or 3 demos where there was noticeable “cool” moment where the overhead Atmos effects made a difference (for a few seconds at most)

I agree that the cost to implement a few overhead speakers isn't enormous with most processors coming out of the box capable now days. But let's say you have a larger theater and need 6 overhead speakers for proper coverage, then in order to have proper timbre matching, your forced into a slightly higher priced surround (say seaton sound $900 per speaker passive 8inch coax as an example). With amplification you're looking at $7-8k. Now how often are you utilizing that capability after seeing a sampling of 10 movies from different genres (action, comedy, drama, etc), a few hours of Cable TV, and game day football broadcasts? Maybe for 5 minutes out of 30-40 hours worth of content. For most theaters in this forum, it probably makes sense to pull the trigger, but for those looking for a place to compromise, I would much rather put that $7-8k into another 1000 lumens of a better projector, better LCR mains, or a more formidable sub system where you will see the fruits of your cash outlay with every bit of content you experience in your theater.

I mentioned this to dschultz at dinner, but it's easy to fix any problem (immersion) by throwing a lot of money at it. The fun part is coming up with a way to get 95% of the cost no object system for ¼ of the price. Eliminating Atmos speakers is one such way I think may be worth considering for a lot of people.

Very interesting that I only saw 1 3d demo tv on the show floor and it looked terrible “glasses free” . Is Peter still predicting a comeback or has he finally let that ship sail? 😜
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Best of Show:

Creative Labs Atmos soundbar!

Current projector - JVC RS25 and Marantz VP15S1
Future projector - pre-ordered new JVC from AVScience
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post #18 of 81 Old 09-10-2017, 05:13 PM
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It's been many years since I've posted, good to see some of my old AVS Forum friends are still around!

Quote:
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Favorite show piece: Samsung's 'Frame' TV. The TV that can display art and looks like a piece of art. Amazing. Solved the 'bad form' problem of hanging a flat screen over a fireplace in the main living space. Now there's no need for the faux picture frame with art that rolls down to hide the flatscreen.
Jeff, I was also impressed with The Frame. Here are a couple of videos I did at CEDIA:

9-Second Version


4-minute version which shows how cool it it:

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A few comments...

I thought RBH was decent but again a bit too loud for the space. The total speaker cost was $22,000 MSRP. Note they where bucking the tide and using dipole in walls (mounted in ceiling) for Atmos channels.

The lack of base thunder in the Golden Ear room was primarily due to using their 8" sub IIRC. Note regarding the inwall LCR the MSRP is $1,000 each. I bet Wisdom Audio spent that in restaurant tips this weekend... all in all I love them but I'm a dealer.

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The Meridian - Barco room was also very well done. In the top 5.

Wisdom Audio sounded flat with limited dynamics.


EMOTIVA was flat and not gripping. However you can buy the whole nine yards for 10 Gs with electronics..

Did not go to PMC. Went last year. They are the real deal too gents. Last year they showed the mega balls out studio monitors. $150,000/pair but that included the amps of course.

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It's been many years since I've posted, good to see some of my old AVS Forum friends are still around!



Jeff, I was also impressed with The Frame. Here are a couple of videos I did at CEDIA:

9-Second Version

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15hw7lEjVfw

4-minute version which shows how cool it it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2w9faXFYbw&t=28s
David

Good to here from you. Great product. Had my wife at the show and she was sold on it (as was I)

Back in the wild west days at AVS, you were the poster with no equals. Fun times back then.
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Goodbye to a great audio and video genius and writer... JOHN GANNON. I enjoyed your friendship, wit and a nice long run we took around Indianapolis at CEDIA years back... and for buying my Runco 980 Ultra years back... you saved my ass! Rest in peace.
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post #22 of 81 Old 09-10-2017, 05:40 PM
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Off topic but what are the model/price for he Barco residential pj's?

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post #23 of 81 Old 09-10-2017, 05:43 PM
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Oh yeah almost forgot. The Epson Short Throw (laser ??) at $3,000 and the Vivitek for $3,000 with 4K sorta bulb based and the Sony $25K latest model were all very nice for the price point.

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post #24 of 81 Old 09-10-2017, 05:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bartl007 View Post
It was great to meet you as well. Hope your new theater build is as epic as it sounds like it's going to be!

I figured I would stir up some discussion with my Atmos thoughts. I think I'm pretty much the only one with this stance but I still stand by it. I think the size of the theater also plays a role in costs and coverage concerns for more than one row of seats.

Another point is the content that takes advantage of the tech. Most of the “look how cool this effect is” demos have now come and gone with the Atmos demo disc stuff and we're left with real movies from the studios and the sound engineer decisions that are made in post production to take advantage of this capability.

In my opinion, there are just not that many times in a typical film when something will realistically fly over the top of the camera and utilize the direct overhead point source panning .

Of the 20+ demos at cedia my wife and I experienced, I can think of maybe 2 or 3 demos where there was noticeable “cool” moment where the overhead Atmos effects made a difference (for a few seconds at most)

I agree that the cost to implement a few overhead speakers isn't enormous with most processors coming out of the box capable now days. But let's say you have a larger theater and need 6 overhead speakers for proper coverage, then in order to have proper timbre matching, your forced into a slightly higher priced surround (say seaton sound $900 per speaker passive 8inch coax as an example). With amplification you're looking at $7-8k. Now how often are you utilizing that capability after seeing a sampling of 10 movies from different genres (action, comedy, drama, etc), a few hours of Cable TV, and game day football broadcasts? Maybe for 5 minutes out of 30-40 hours worth of content. For most theaters in this forum, it probably makes sense to pull the trigger, but for those looking for a place to compromise, I would much rather put that $7-8k into another 1000 lumens of a better projector, better LCR mains, or a more formidable sub system where you will see the fruits of your cash outlay with every bit of content you experience in your theater.

I mentioned this to dschultz at dinner, but it's easy to fix any problem (immersion) by throwing a lot of money at it. The fun part is coming up with a way to get 95% of the cost no object system for ¼ of the price. Eliminating Atmos speakers is one such way I think may be worth considering for a lot of people.

Very interesting that I only saw 1 3d demo tv on the show floor and it looked terrible “glasses free” . Is Peter still predicting a comeback or has he finally let that ship sail? 😜
All fair points and well said. It's no different than buying wines... sure, a good (but expensive) Pontet Canet or Quintessa will fill the bill every time, but its those elusive $25-$40 bottles that are what makes being a vinophile all the more fun (and affordable)!

The nuttiness of the hobby is the exponential costs for small gains. Finding the sweet spot is of cost/benefit is always part of the chase.

It certainly comes down to want vs need. For me, I usually get into my theater 0-1 times per week... and when I do, I don't want anything left on the table !

And besides, in my new build, I'm cutting into the ceiling one time, mounting speakers one time and calibrating once (I hope)... so it all has to go in up front.

That said, I think I'm going to go with 6 heights rather than 8 (as I had in my previous theater)... so some savings
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Goodbye to a great audio and video genius and writer... JOHN GANNON. I enjoyed your friendship, wit and a nice long run we took around Indianapolis at CEDIA years back... and for buying my Runco 980 Ultra years back... you saved my ass! Rest in peace.
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All fair points and well said. It's no different than buying wines... sure, a good (but expensive) Pontet Canet or Quintessa will fill the bill every time, but its those elusive $25-$40 bottles that are what makes being a vinophile all the more fun (and affordable)!

The nuttiness of the hobby is the exponential costs for small gains. Finding the sweet spot is of cost/benefit is always part of the chase.

It certainly comes down to want vs need. For me, I usually get into my theater 0-1 times per week... and when I do, I don't want anything left on the table !

And besides, in my new build, I'm cutting into the ceiling one time, mounting speakers one time and calibrating once (I hope)... so it all has to go in up front.

That said, I think I'm going to go with 6 heights rather than 8 (as I had in my previous theater)... so some savings
Agreed about only cutting into ceiling once. My wife says I can only afford one expensive hobby, so I stick to beer! 😲🍺
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post #26 of 81 Old 09-11-2017, 08:09 AM
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Quote:
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Cedia 2017 Impressions:

Sorry for the long post, but you asked for it...

All of the following is my personal opinion.

Overall, I was not, and am not, impressed with Atmos. I think the amount of times it is used in film special effects is not worth the cost to implement this is a worth while way. I've also seen several movies in a Dolby prime theater (Atlanta) and couldn't tell any difference in overhead effects vs traditional surround sound commercial theaters .
I realize I'm an outlier here and everyone else but me thinks Atmos is the best thing since sliced bread. Maybe my ears are shaped funny?
I have often felt agreement with you - somewhat!

When I first heard Dolby Atmos several years ago, Harkins Cine Capri at Tempe Marketplace, I hardly if ever noted the overhead effects, but I did notice that the sonics seemed somewhat more musical and clear in general, starting with the opening music before the start of the movie. Then when the AMC Dolby Cinema opened here, my impression was the same. However, more recently, I saw "War for the Planet of the Apes" at the Dolby Cinema, and I much more noticed more overhead effects, sort of neat!

I think for those of us with quieter, more musical yet dynamic home theater systems with outstanding imaging it may be harder to tell that Dolby Atmos gives us so much more, because we already have great imaging and and sounds can already seem to come from above us even though its our imagination due to the imaging and the brain!

I think Dolby Atmos mixes are getting better, as Hollywood is learning how to mix better for Atmos, too!

My system is five floorstanding Aerial Acoustics 7ts, four in-ceiling KEF cc2000rr-thx Uni-Q), two JL Audio f212 subwoofers on ASC sub stands, five Theta Digital Prometheus monoblocks (first ones out of Theta Jan 2014), an ATI multi-channel amp for ceiling speakers, Oppo 205, Sonore Signature Rendu (ROON Ready) and Berkley Audio USB converter (2 channel), and custom built modded CAPSv3 (speced by Computer Audiophile Forum) for HDMI multi-channel audio, with Sonic Transporter i5 (ROON core) and Western Digital MyCloud Pro 4100 32 TB (with 11 tB and over 6200 albums of music) (latter 2 components in my home office away from theatre, with audio signal as ethernet via AC wires). I built my own custom audio and home theatre room back in 1997 with dimensions #3 on the Louden scale (for good room acoustics), with adjustable Michael Green Pressure Zone Controllers as primary room treatments.

I FINALLY got the Theta Casablanca IV-A Atmos/DTS-X upgrade about two months ago. I noticed using the "Upmix" mode (simulating Dolby Atmos) that the sonics seem somewhat more musical and clear in general, starting with the opening music before the start of the movie. Right before attending CEDIA, I played the 4k Dolby Atmos Discs of "Logan" and "Star Trek" (2009).
WOW! I was sonically immersed more than ever! "Star Trek" was a revelation! So I'm glad I got the Atmos upgrade.

Of course if I paid the same bucks for the same/same company amps and speakers for my in ceiling speakers, I bet it would sound even better! But frankly, I can't tell. My dealer Craig Shumer/VGI recommended the KEF in ceiling speakers as an outstanding match with my floorstanding Aerials and they are! The Uni-Q drivers with effortless radiation work well given that when you retrofit in-ceiling speakers you cannot place them perfectly at all! Unless I am superrich (I am not), I'd have to be crazy to invest that much in my Dolby Atmos amps and speakers! And it worked out well spending much less per channel for the in-ceiling speakers for me!

You mean you don't remember me? Back 1999 - 2003, I started and moderated the AVS Tweaks forum and also the AVS Special Guests forum.

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post #27 of 81 Old 09-11-2017, 08:16 AM
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Originally Posted by bartl007 View Post
Cedia 2017 Impressions:

Dynaudio off site demo in Marriott Carlsbad room- my vote for best demo of show. I sat front and center like a selfish SOB. barco balder cinemascope projector, not sure how wide the screen was (maybe 14 ft?). No fatigue and didn't even seem very loud. Great mix of music and movie dynamics with clips chosen although as others noted, it was a bit random. JL subs (double 12”- Gotham?) were very tight and tuneful, blended really well, but room wasn't quite as energized as some other demos (I forgot to ask how many they had running and was later told there were 4, I was also told that the house curve was more of a flat response due to choices made by the calibrator). Also a slight amount of rattle from the AC duct/tiles overhead during loud passages (understandable given the ballroom we were in) (Not sure how big the room was given the black drapes all around (maybe 20x30 ish with 15 ft ceilings?). 4, 8inch coaxial in ceiling speakers in backer boxes overhead with in-wall 2 ways behind curtains to the side and rear. Datasat processor. 25k watts of power. Very dynamic. Gunshots in lone survivor had great chest thump along with high end “thwack” that wasn't too loud or jarring despite 108-109db peaks (what we were told, I didn't have an spl meter with me) Peeking around the back of the cinema master 60 (the big LCR) on display was a speakon connector. These seem to be the m3xe studio monitor repackaged for high end home theater. Apparently each speaker is quad amped and capable of 135db at 1m. Was told that all audio gear in use was $150k MSRP. With a quick Google search; The studio version is driven actively with dsp in the lab gruppen PLM10000Q amps that are packaged with the monitors.
The demo however used ATI amps to my knowledge but I'm not sure if there was a dsp/crossover in the amp or how exactly the system was being driven with the datasat (active vs passive ). Again as an entire demo (audio+video) if I could take home only 1 demo and put it in my house, this would be the one for me. I thought it was best of show.

And perhaps my favorite part of the demo was before it even started. While waiting for people to find their seats and file in, they played a nice Latin jazz percussive piece (sing, sing, sang?) that was phenomenal. Super wide sound stage, trumpets wailing that sounded like the real deal, great foot tapping percussive mid bass that was very “live” and again absolutely no fatigue, super smooth. Best of show
As I have stated, I fully agree. Subwoofers are the same ones I have, multiple JL Audio Fathom f212s - used because they provide fast, right, resolving bass that can "keep up" with fast dynamic "audiophile" Dynaudio speakers and drivers! Great match.

The amplifiers were Dynaudio multi-channel amplifiers (built by ATI) (essentially ATI Signature multi-channel amps modded per then Datasat specs to sound how Datasat liked it to sound, as ATI only very recently acquired Datasat).

I attended first and last on Friday. During first session, hotel manager came over and asked to turn it down as complaints from neighboring hotel rooms!

You mean you don't remember me? Back 1999 - 2003, I started and moderated the AVS Tweaks forum and also the AVS Special Guests forum.

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post #28 of 81 Old 09-11-2017, 08:28 AM
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I was told that the dynaudio demo was with the barco balder cinemascope projector which apparently has less lumens than the regular balder. 3500?

https://www.barco.com/en/staticpages.../model%20range

I'm not sure of the MSRP of the barco balder, but if it's close to 20k
I would take it over the new Sony all day. In the dynaudio demo they showed a clip from Lego Batman movie that was razor sharp with great color saturation, great motion handling with no visible artifacts and enough brightness for me on the scope screen.
The Dynaudio demo did use the Barco Balder Cinemascope projector, 3500 lumens, $35,000, half the price of its big brother Barco Loki.

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post #29 of 81 Old 09-11-2017, 08:36 AM
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I think 4k is worth stepping up to in the projector realm. I also consider anything with the TI new pixel flipping 4k chip to be equal to true 4k given the real world usage and from demos I saw (I think the entire digital projection line that's branded as 4k uses this chip but could be wrong).

That new TI 4k chip really brings in lots of competition to the market and helps drive prices down from the stratosphere for a 4k high brightness experience. I'm not sure a “true 4k” chip really matters to most people.

I haven't really mentioned contrast because it's very difficult in show floor conditions to evaluate the most important component of the image.
You are correct, Barco and other 4k DLPs use the pixel flipping Texas Instruments 4k chip which is actually half the resolution of true 4k chips (such as in the JVC rs-4500 D-ILA projector).
Yea, I couldn't tell a difference, either. You have to get into the Cinema DLP projectors, hundreds and hundreds of pounds and lots of $$$$$, to get true 4k DLP resolution. My research shows that Barco acquired Projection Design, and all of these consumer projectors are products of that acquisition!

http://www.barco.com/en/News/Press-r...ndesign®.aspx

If you review the specs on the Barco projectors, only Rec.709 (HD) color is listed, not Rec.2020 (4k HDR color). Specs on JVC rs4500 D-ILA shows 80% of Rec.2020!

My favorite projectors as colored in my potential price range were the JVC rs4500 and the Barco Balder Cinemascope. I'd be happy with either one!

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post #30 of 81 Old 09-11-2017, 08:38 AM
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Nice meeting you and your wife at dinner. What a meal! Great evening.

This I think bears more discussion - you might be an outlier but its impossible to argue with your personal experience.

I think the cost:benefit ratio is the sticking point for many.... having had a couple ATMOS SSPs (Datasat RS-20, Altitude 24), I can subjectively (and objectively affirm Atmos does make soundtracks better). I think most all would agree with that... after set up, Adam put a setting that would run it at full 11.1.8 and just 7.1. Easy to compare 7.1 and 13.1.8. Clearly, when you eliminated the 8 heights in my set up, the top surround field disappeared with them. Like all else, if you have more discrete channels to add, the mix (and experience benefit. More precision. Is it a night and day difference? No.. but when I do take the heights out, it is not as pleasing or immersive. Sully comes to mind... No heights, no 'you are on the plane' sense of realism. Heights may provide moments or many minutes of improvement in most two hour films, but to me, its a must have.

Moreover, any new SSP these days include Atmos / DTS-X on board without an extra upgrade cost.

Height speaker costs can be nominal - in fact Rob Hahn (theater of theaters) employs M2s up front and SCS8s for heights. See costs of each below:

JBL M2: $10,000 each
JBL SCS8 $469 each

So, a small relative cost for heights. Now add a smaller 4 ch amp (e.g. QSC - like I used for $1K), and you have the bed of height channels on the cheap and a relatively small cost to add them to get the added benefits of Atmos. Even the Theta guys who have upgraded are lauding the gains of Atmos (though many are stuck in the past and likely won't upgrade). Kudos to Steve B and Cannga..

The relative cost is small but, in my opinion, the gains are great.

Again, nice meeting you and your wife! (Nice CEDIA review BTW)
Jeff, you have no idea how I "hate" to agree with you on anything audio. HA!!@@@

You mean you don't remember me? Back 1999 - 2003, I started and moderated the AVS Tweaks forum and also the AVS Special Guests forum.

My home theater at:
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